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Melee Mapping Contest #4 - Poll

Discussion in 'Poll Depository' started by mafe, Apr 26, 2019.

?

Cast your vote up to 5 entries: (READ THE RULES below before voting)

Poll closed May 11, 2019.
  1. Lordaeron Plaza by XanderD

    21.4%
  2. Hillsbrad Creek by Mr.Henci

    50.0%
  3. Overgrown Center by DuckDuckGoose

    7.1%
  4. The Consortium by Keito

    25.0%
  5. Vile Reef by JaleVeliki

    39.3%
  6. Stairs of Destiny by Ragnaros17

    14.3%
  7. King and Country by Meerel

    35.7%
  8. Forgotten Halls by mmtt

    14.3%
  9. Veilswamp by Khaldaiel

    3.6%
  10. Bandit's City by Rockstar356

    21.4%
  11. The Time Gates by Twilight

    14.3%
  12. Terrace Fields by Nudl9

    21.4%
  13. Underground Oasis by Blood Raven

    25.0%
  14. Venture Co. Shipyards by sentrywiz

    3.6%
  15. Westfall Adventure by FranzVader_CZ

    17.9%
  16. Guardians by Arrr

    14.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Did I hear Eurovision?
     
  2. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Because the people who vote don't play or test the map. How do i know?

    1# Too many entries, nobody is going to waste their time playing every map for 15+ minutes (4 hours of playtime at least). If there are any melee players they will only pick and play the map that looks the best. If a mapmaker cast the vote i think they're most likely to judge the map based on overview and general looks, maybe they'll open it in the editor. But the matter of the fact is, few of the mapmakers here also play melee actively, which you can tell by the liberal use of boats, waygates, etc - cancerous features that don't belong in melee.

    2# The voters, if you click on the poll there are voters with 1-5 posts. If you aren't getting your friends to vote for you, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. It's the optimal way to win. Entries have been disqualified before because of friendly voting, but how are the moderators supposed to tell which ones are "good voters" and "bad voters", it's highly subjective and so the system is inaccurate because theres no way to determine "proper votes".

    3#
    Theres not enough voters to create accurate average results. It looks a lot now, but thats because every voter has the option of voting for 5 maps.

    4# When mapmakers vote, they vote on the maps with the most gimmicks, which don't necessarily create good melee maps at all. I've written critical posts before about why red tilesets are inherently flawed, why boats are cancer. Waygates should be self explanatory. It would have been better if the poll was hosted in a place where actual melee players reside, because the maps were made for them. Hosting the poll in an active melee forum like WC3 Gym Discord would have been a good start.

    Like i don't want to be that guy that call people idiots here, but you have mapmakers here that disregard certain maps because "oh look its just another green map" or it "has lordearon summer merc camp", how unoriginal. Which really speaks volumes, because it means they didn't read Mafe's competetive melee guide - who is one of the judges. You would be an idiot not to read it, yet clearly many people didn't do it. These same people are the ones to cast votes, so yeah.. my faith in this poll is pretty abysmal.

    I think it's better to leave the maps to the judges. With Mafe and Lawliet as judges i expect accurate results. I'm not gonna rethread on Chaco drama as i've filed a pretty lengthy formal complaint.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  3. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    until they are properly integrated.
    more like informal.

    You are free to open up a thread in Site Discussion pertaining the contest score system.
    The problem with only judges is that many contests have few to one judge.
     
  4. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Boats can't be properly integrated because the feature is cancer. It's inherently flawed.
    Theres a reason nagas, boats got discarded as a multiplayer element with the release of TFT.
    It's clunky and creates lots of new imbalance issues.

    Transport ships have 1500 hp which is just broken.
    If your transport ship gets ensnared and surrounded, everything inside dies - largely Orc favoured.
    The turn rate creates a lot of problems with ships in combat.
    The load range is too low.
    Collision size too big makes pathing clunky.
    Naval pathfiding in general is just clunky.
    To make a "boat" map the maps also need water which means less buildable terrain.
    Frigates are basicly paper and not worth the price, because it has light armor which sucks.
    The siege boat is OP as fuck if the map has any bases exposed water.


    I don't particular mind the poll voting system because it favours me lol. But it's not exactly a fair or even good system. So embrace it for what it is, a popularity contest. The most household name wins.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  5. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Thanks for the technical details.
    Way I see it, Zeppelins are worse in that they fly and can be abused better. Transport ships are at more risk of your army actually getting killed opposed to just be stunned when the zeppelin is destroyed. As far as the attack ships go, there's nothing some stats tweaking and gameplay thinking can't do to make them viable.

    As written above, some stats tweaking makes wonders.
    It's a risk you'll have to take then. Frankly it's stupid that doesn't happen when the zeppelin crashes. Anyway, I guess that's why they've put the high HP. This can be fixed in a way that units would be thrown to the nearest walkable land patch and stunned.
    Turn rates are supposed to be weird since, well, ships plus ships are usually strong to compensate.
    The load range can also be easily changed.
    Pathing can also be modified. However, this is quite subjective. Big units, generally have pathing issues. Besides, in Warcraft III ships aren't supposed to be mass produced but used as mercenaries.
    Less buildable terrain? I don't recall ladder being a kingdom simulator.
    Frigates: stats change, big deal. As for the bigger ships, same.

    Again, you should think beyond not under the current limitations.
     
  6. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Sure, but we've been here for 16 years post-TFT and theres been absolutely no changes from the side of Blizzard.
    Since there are no and never has been any competitive melee maps with water units i doubt they even care.
    You could mitigate some problems by editing game data yourself, but it's generally frowned upon if you're making a melee map.
    There have been attempts by modders to fix it, but generally speaking it's clunky, unintuitive and bogs down otherwise great gameplay.

    I'm pretty sure the boats were scrapped very early into TFT. I remember reading a post on reddit about it, where boats are not very intuitive for gameplay or something like it. Basicly some units can't attack on water and others can't which creates an unfair advantage. Or when your opponent decides to fight on land where boats can't reach they become obsolete and why would you include obsolete features.
     
  7. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    !? All ranged units which target ground units target boats. All ground melee units target boats (if they are close enough). Easy as pie, as you need ranged units to attack air units and as ranged air units attack ground units, as magic attack type units can't attack magic immune units and so on.
    That's just gameplay. Spell casters become obsolete against magic immune units or non-magic attackers/users against ethereal (Banish/Spirit Form).
    You use the ships as long as you need them. Maps can be made in such a way for them to be as useful as possible.
    I wonder how naga/amphibious units would work though. Of course, they'd have to be higher tier like air units.
     
  8. Damn, see ya XanderD.

    I concur. But it shouldn't matter to us in the long run.

    Seeing how zeppelins behave the same way over water, I'd say the water is buggy.
    Which is why most maps utilize shallow water only.

    More or less. I think I've been playing TFT for ~14 years, and boats never happened, not even in custom maps.
    Not even mass strategy maps that have absurd amounts of map size to work with, utilize them well.

    I think you're wrong.
    Even blizzard thinks you're wrong, frigates description also says "good vs air".
    And frigates are so worth it.

    Battleships on the other hand, if they were playable in melee setting are the ones that
    might not be worth it and are clunky. Especially since their splash is friendly fire.
     
  9. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    You're just playing devils advocate if you want to argue for boats.

    Melee game is a game designed around units soft-countering each other. Regardless of what unit compositions each player has you can usually micro your way to victory. There are some hardcounters like air>ground, magic immunity>spell casters, but thats something you play to punish massing. But if you introduce boats you have units that can just run away from a fight or become obsolete the moment units step on land, see my screenshot for good example. So if you have a boat map, you just end buying flying units anyway.

    The moment you don't need them they still take up food slots which is a huge issue, which is why you never want to use them.

    Theres a reason why boats aren't in the main game. Regardless of what you think of them it doesn't change the fact that using boats tend to be the worst aspect of most RTS games. It's heavy handed and not fun to use. Even if transport ship is broken as fuck nobody wants to use it because it's clunky.


    Uhh no? They have 0 armor and the worst type of armor possible - light armor.
    What attack does air units have? piercing.
    So frigates are bad vs air.
    Frigates are shit.
    Also what tooltips say doesn't matter, because blizzard doesn't care about most info written on most units like creeps, campaign units, etc.
    You'll start to notice how tardy the developers are once you work long enough with the editor.
    I've tested most campaign and units like boats pretty rigorously is my map Warcraft Royale, which is supposed to replicate the fighting aspect from ladder.
    So i've got a lot to say about boats.

    It matters because theres less spots for AOW creeping, farm scouting, protecting key checkpoints like shops, AOW>UD harass to tech, moving your main base ancient, mass moon wells in center+warden, placing a shops. It generally limits your options in a bad way. Northeren Isles is an example of a ladder map that has too much water, it doesn't feel good to play on.
     

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    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  10. Most RTS games don't utilize water. They're in space or on land.
    Red Alert games, Warcraft2, Age of Empires utilize water very well.

    Which is why I don't like melee in WC3, IMO. People do like it though, and I agree, in standard melee maps
    the priorities are different and its not about boats or even using boats. They were never really standardized TFT / ROC feature.


    Only in cinematics. The only use was in the Rexxar campaigns, when Kul Tiras was involved.
    If Kul Tiras would of made it into the main game back then as it is now in WoW BFA,
    things would of been a looooooot different. They would of found a way to make naval work.


    Let's play my map then. I think I'll wreck your air armies.
     

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  11. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    The same with boats. As I've already mentioned, they should be used as mercenaries, not mass produced.
    Like air units can just fly away over destructibles, cliffs, doodads and other units? Boats have their role. They are usually more resistant than air units (except probably Frost Wyrms and Chimaeras if we don't consider Battleships). I really don't see why you fight so much not to have ships in the game. It's not like you're forced to play with them. Heck, even I don't play with all the units in a faction's techtree. I have my favourites.
    Sure but, let's have Battleships mid-game to compensate for their later replacement in late game with wyrms and chimaeras.
    Not really. They could actually be good fore defensive means around island expansions etc. But, I was thinking of a way to sell them later on if you'd like (an ability which gives back half or less the amount of resources spent on them).
    Right, so, I'm supposed to take your words for granted and think like that. No. Boats work quite well in RTS games, they do in Warcraft II and Red Alert, 7 Years War and whichever game has them along with air units.
    Again, manoeuvrability can be fixed. I don't consider some units fun, especially some from the mercenary camps which are useless apart form having an extra unit faster but that doesn't mean I am forced to use those units.
    It's like saying, creeping with AoW is not fun. Well, don't do it. Let others do it. (Tower) rush isn't fun but should it be eliminated?
    I thought we've gone through this one before. Stats can be changed. For the map I'm working on, I've replaced that with medium.
    Wow... as if the idea of this game was the editor in the first place...
    Less doesn't mean none. Heck even StarCraft had island only maps and that didn't make the game bad. Sure, nobody played ladder on those because the gameplay was obviously mid-late related and 90% dependent on air units.
    Maps can be properly made not to have those issues. Take some of yours for instance which have a lot of shallow water.
    Not all maps should enable these strategies. If you can use the same tactics on every map, where's the fun in creative stratagem thinking?

    Melee units become obsolete against air units. Same deal, only with one way.
    The "problem" I'm seeing in your picture is that melee units have an easier time dealing with boats due to much shallow water.

    So, let's agree to disagree more.
     
  12. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Any feature that isn't used should be scrapped. It's bad game design to leave scraps of features that don't get used. It's ok to have some features that are less used as long as they fill a niche, but boats don't even do that. The problem with leaving excess features in your game is that you're essentially handing out a set of cards, the pros will pick all the good cards because they know better and the noobs will pick cards that aren't top tier and wonder why they lost. When the game can simply hand out decent cards to both players. This is why a game should never be bogged down by too many features.

    Yeah, but you're advocating for a change which is kind of pointless isn't it? Like nobody wants to play melee maps with boats and so there is no incentive for blizzard to balance boats or rework them. They have been left unchanged for 16 years. If you edit the data in the object editor then your map won't qualify for a melee map either, so yeah pointless.

    Boats were easily the worst part of WC2.
    Other RTS games come to mind as well: Warlords Battlecry, AoE2.
    I haven't played enough Red Alert to have an opinion of it.

    Because boats suck and playing with them is not fun. The only thing that matters in a game is how "fun" it is, so yeah if it's not "fun" then don't add it.
    If boats suck nobody will buy them meaning it's an excess feature, which again - bad game design.
    Now if you were to suddenly make boats good i'd be forced to use them, but they're not fun to use so i don't want them to be good.

    If i'm not using AOW to creep, then i'm playing the game less than optimal, now why would i do that?
     
  13. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    oh heavens I cant read it all, and more post commings,

    -I want to say that my first idea was to use shallow water and shipyards in my map, after @Nudl9 post of boats, I totally discarted the idea.

    -about water, I like Red alert 3, water bases, a lot of amphibious units so you can go ground - water with a lot of freedom. and many units have 2 roles.

    -since is the 4th melee contest of the Hive site, the poll has to be hosted on the site, but I understand it was linked in discord, redit, whatever, now if user dont come here to vote, we cant force them.
    and I think as inside rules of the hive is that contest need a public poll.
    Arena - Rules And Guide
    3. Poll
    When the contest has ended, the poll can start.

    -https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads/melee-mapping-the-reasons-behind-common-aspects-of-competitive-1v1-maps.304710/
    I read it, thats why I put the lordaeron merc camp in a black citadel map, still sorry for the red tiles.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  14. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    !? it's flawed right now and not even in ladder. How's that going to be used? That's why we're discussing about fixes.
    You mean ladder players are not accustomed to because it wasn't part of ladder melee from the start. That's totally a different thing. Pros are reluctant to new things because they are too absorbed into what they already know (to exploit).
    ...sure that's totally on point.
    Let's see how the new melee changes they did work out. This is how you do it, few steps at a time.
    I fail to see why your opinion should be taken as a general argument.
    OK, then don't play games with boats. I think they're fun.
    Then if boats are powerful then you'll use them even if you don't like them.
     
  15. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    There is nothing to salvage by "fixing boats" here.
    It's like making a melee map with imbalanced merc. camps, you just don't do it because the map becomes shit for a certain race.
    The general opinion of boats is that they aren't fun to use.
    It's only mapmakers that insist on playing them because they want to make special snowflake maps.

    Anyway i found the reddit thread that i was thinking of, with the key points i was thinking about.


    @floss2xdailywarcraft, WC3 Gym Discord Admin


    @mafe, judge in this contest lol

    Basicly everything i've been saying this whole time..

    Or i just stop playing the game because it's not fun. Thats what happens when the game isn't fun, people stop playing. A lot of players stopped playing melee after 1.30 because the changes blizzard made were so cancerous (KOTG, Giants, etc). The game stopped being fun. The community was upset because the classic games team is incompetent. So yeah introducing boats is a terrible idea, because nobody likes boats and more players will just quit playing the game.
     
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Mass air if there's too much water where the boats can hide or something. Else, it's the same with air units. Easiest way to counter is air units.
    No one will mass produce ships because maps won't be designed for that and heroes are a priority which will not be neglected. It would be a waste of time to use ships more than they are useful for, some skirmishes, attack from behind the base tactics, transport.
    There's no context to what he said. Did he mean boats as mercs? Was he referring to Warcraft II type boats?

    With all that, it's still inconclusive and needs further testing.
     
  17. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Theres no context? he was talking about balance and AI problems.
    All things i've seen saying up until this point.
    I could probably write an essay worth of why boats suck.

    There is nothing to test, boat's don't work and aren't fun to use.
    Like i don't understand what kind of conclusive evidence you want for why boats are inherently bad and a terrible gameplay mechanic, when you even have a statement from the devs as well.
    Boats just aren't inherently interesting in theme either, playing with ground units is just ten times more fun.
    So i don't know, like do you want the opinion of 70-80%+ winrate players, because i know some and if you ask their opinion on it they're going to be a lot more blunt about it.
     
  18. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    "I’ve heard people explain it by saying that maps with boats just turn into mass-air maps"

    Wtii also say it when reviewing a map of the 3rd melee contest, his statement can be found in the youtube channel.

    since boats, is like almost talking about @JaleVeliki map.

    Vile Reef
    I was neutral with his boats, not add him score, but not punish him, I consider it as something that can be removed later to reach ladder.
    so the map:
    1-I felt that merc. camps could be more far from base, more in a competitive spot.
    2-the hydra level 6 as green, I wouldnt do that.
    That 2 are the things I remember,

    1-what I did like is his expading system, the sea gigants (x3) have pulverice wich really harms militia so, I think it was clever to avoid human multi-expanding.
    2-Also liked the goblin shops positions, gob labs, and sea gigants as red creeps.

    Hillsbrad Creek
    - the only think I did not like was the pure red creep of golems that cant be hit with spells, I would have put some units to be hit by spells.
    the only thing I remember I really didnt like. The rest was solid, I like it.

    The Consortium.
    -the only thing I remember is that you couldnt reach Level 2 by killing 2 creeps, if I remember well.
    -I could loot a permanent Level 4 and buy a another permanent Level 4 just in spot, I got 2 aura items in a row by chance. perhaps a charged level 3 or a charged level 4 would be better IMO.
    The rest was solid IMO and I like the map.

    Guardians
    1- didnt like tavern area, water, no farm options.
    2-not my favorite expanding system, didnt like center goldmines shape, but expading is posible.

    1- I did like the center marketplaces, mana fountains, gob shops
    2-I liked the gob labs in competitive spots.
    3- I like green creeps near tavern.
    I like the map, the enviroment.

    5

    my fith vote was for the map that is no longer in contest, I prefer to not talk about that map in any form.


    those are the maps I voted, and did it mindfully considering balance, and compare 1 map against other, of course when maps have bugs, is subjetive wich bugs weigh more. I penalice more agro, than a safe neutral building near base as example.
    And to me the expanding system is the main key to consider above almost everything else,
    is like when I play I am just thinking in creep the expansion, build a tower in the expansion and then expand.
    but perhaps another way of thinking could be consider the goblin shop as key.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  19. You tell em.
    To each their own.
    I feel ya Rag.
    Boats are bad in melee maps, you don't need a pro to figure that out.
    IT would take a lot of fixes for them to even be remotely viable.
    And its just a tad bit too late for that.

    My hopes lie in reforged.

    @deepstrasz - are you making a naval melee? I'd play that.
     
  20. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    No. I'm working on a campaign.
    You can however test this map I've edited for expanding melee purposes:
    Making Neutral Melee Assets Viable for Ladder+Others
    I still need to balance the ships though and well, the terrain isn't too friendly for them either.
     
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