Making Neutral Melee Assets Viable for Ladder+Others

Level 21
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
139
They have light armor and
Only on shallow water.
Nah, you just need to buy 4 boats :D Haven't you seen grubby play Thawing Snow?
Jokes aside, sure you can surround them on shallow water and it's harder than it seems despite the size of the boat's pathing. You need to slow them down with spells/abilities.

Boats have 900HP and light armor now, they made them very similar to zeps in that aspect in the patch. Before that you couldn't even sink one ship.

Anyways, idk why boats would need to be changed now, if we could make maps with boats work when they had 1500HP and heavy armor, why couldn't we make them work now when they're not outright broken? The only thing that can accelerate any talk about boat changes is making more maps with boats that could get into tournaments like Taker's New Horizons Cup and to get maps into tournaments, they should excel in every aspect of mapping. I'd like to mention Hymn of Victory by @SaveHighKing which is looking like a potentially great boat map if he does some tweaks to it.
 
Level 22
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,557
I toyed with the idea of using corrupted moon wells in Warcraft Royale as a neutral building.
A neutral moon well means it can be depleted and full health units can't drain more from it, leaving spare moon juice for the other player.
Though i don't expect Blizzard to add any new game mechanics at this point.

The better option is to tweak fountains to provide flat+hybrid rate, which is a lot more balanced for fountains.
I actually implemented it myself in Warcraft Royale 2.0 and it's a big improvement.
Mountain giants took longer to regenerate, while a Huntress would heal at the same rate it currently does.
Low hp units like footies regenerated a little quicker than normal, but it's to be expected.

For mana fountain only do flat regeneration rate.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
A neutral moon well means it can be depleted and full health units can't drain more from it, leaving spare moon juice for the other player.
Yes but it heals instantly. Fountains are supposed to slow AoE heal.
The better option is to tweak fountains to provide flat+hybrid rate, which is a lot more balanced for fountains.
What do you mean by flat+hybrid?
If it heals percentages it means the same time for total HP heal for any units regardless of total HP.
If it's a fixed amount like 1HP/s it means units with less max HP will heal faster.

Besides, it wouldn't be fair to send your Blademaster or Warden/random night elf unit during the night to regenerate if the fountain regenerates 24/7 freely.
Also suggested before that the fountains should activate after the creeps are taken down.
 
Level 22
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Nov 9, 2006
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2,557
I wrote too quickly lol, i meant: Flat+Percentage (Hybrid heal)
If you only use flat then Tier 1 heals too quickly.
If you only use percentage then Tier 3 units heal too quickly.
Therefore flat+percentage is necessary to balance the heal rate.

Besides, it wouldn't be fair to send your Blademaster or Warden/random night elf unit during the night to regenerate if the fountain regenerates 24/7 freely.
Also suggested before that the fountains should activate after the creeps are taken down.
Blademaster and Warden aren't meta right now.
Even if they can regenerate health, they depend on mana to keep up the harass.
So you'll need a faction shop to get your mana fixed or moon juice.
 
Level 22
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
2,557
Separate values for every unit creates a lot of confusion.
Simplicity is always better.
You don't want a "memory" game like dota where you need to spend time just learning values for each hero/unit.

Flat+percent just works.
Hunts is the main unit that gains benefit from having fountains on a map.
So you keep the hybrid regen rate so it regens at the same rate as it does with percent now.

Well, I was also referring to mana fountains, fountains in general
Fountains need seperate regen types and rates for balance reasons.
Mana is the most valueable resource in melee games and should not be easily available.
That's why flat is the way to go.
 
Level 9
Joined
May 18, 2019
Messages
91
The regeneration rate could be tweaked. More mana->less regeneration rate. Or, dependable on hero level.
I bet the fix will be something like this if bliz ever touches fountains. I still like the map evolving throughout the gameplay: gold mines get emptied, structures get built, trees fell down, creeps die out, maybe fountains could dry out as well :psmile:
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
I bet the fix will be something like this if bliz ever touches fountains. I still like the map evolving throughout the gameplay: gold mines get emptied, structures get built, trees fell down, creeps die out, maybe fountains could dry out as well
Maybe. Drying them out on choice isn't viable since the enemy might dry it out for you. But yeah, basically, them being timed naturally would be a good idea.
For instance, the timer could start once the creeps protecting the fountains are killed.
 
Level 9
Joined
May 18, 2019
Messages
91
I would like to have some lumber management unit to be sold from shipyards.

Goblin Carpenter
Carries 50 lumber at the time and has repair. Costs 2 food and some resources. About as strong as peons.

Laboratories and shipyards won't appear on the same map that often. It would be still good to have some options to boost your lumber economy. When you normally go for one shredder you could have two carpenters instead. Shredders can fight but carpenters can help repair.
Also carpenters and shipyards fit together quite well.
 
Level 9
Joined
May 18, 2019
Messages
91
Tavern improvement:
Pitlord's rain of fire should destroy trees. This would give all of the races option to destroy trees early game. I think destorying trees shouldn't be instant but rather pitlord would need to channel all of the 6 waves down before any of the trees get destroyed. This because he's such a op hero to begin with.

If not the pitlord how about Tinker and his cluster rockets. This hero is all about demolition.
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 53
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
15,566
Pitlord's rain of fire should destroy trees. This would give all of the races option to destroy trees early game. I think destorying trees shouldn't be instant but rather pitlord would need to channel all of the 6 waves down before any of the trees get destroyed. This because he's such a op hero to begin with.
Basically, like catapults or workers hitting trees, lowering their HP until they fall.
If not the pitlord how about Tinker and his cluster rockets. This hero is all about demolition.
I think we also have to consider the mana cost. KotG also gets a temporary unit as bonus. And there's also the AoE circle to consider.
 
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