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Making Neutral Melee Assets Viable for Ladder+Others

Discussion in 'Patch & Reforged Discussion' started by deepstrasz, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    The lack of water AI support shows that the developers never intended for water to be a serious play. They might have at some stage, but it never made it to release.
     
  2. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I don't care what they intended or not. We are trying here to make things more fun, not be blind fundamentalists.
     
  3. Knecht

    Knecht

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    I guess zeppelins weren't intended by devs too as the AI has problems using them :cgrin:
     
  4. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Yeh and Zeppelins are a lot easier to program than water transport. They did get air transport right for StarCraft II however.
     
  5. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    And Brood War and the original StarCraft, of course not as advanced. What's your point? It can be done, the AI type doesn't matter. Warcraft II did it quite well for boats.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  6. twojstaryjakcie

    twojstaryjakcie

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    I'm not quite sure what's happening here - are we making some sort of a Melee Update Wishlist for Blizzard to review? Or are we discussing what types of unit modifications implemented in a map could still be considered Melee?
    Or are we trying to come up with our own Hive Workshop™ Melee Update that would be applied to all maps posted on Hive? Regardless, I have a few ideas on how the elements mentioned could be improved:

    (#2) As far as Mercenary Camps go, I feel like the safest way to have them in maps that have tilesets other than Lordaeron Summer would be implementing remodelled versions of the four most popular Mercenaries so that they would fit the map's theme. For example, Forest Troll Shadow Priest could use the model and soundset of Makrura Tidecaller or Mur'Gul Blood-Gill and be called Makrura(or Mur'Gul) Shadow Priest if you want to use the Sunken Ruins Mercenary Camp. These units function in a similar manner, so exchanging their models wouldn't be too confusing and would keep the game balanced without ruining the immersion by having a Forest Troll on a sandy water map. We could even make an importable game data set that would introduce these remodels if this idea is considered reasonable.

    (#3) I feel like the Shipyard issue could only be solved if the Zeppelin were removed from the Goblin Laboratory or the camps guarding the Laboratory were much tougher than the ones guarding the Shipyards. One of the Melee Contest entries had this issue - he creating a map that was supposed to be revolving mostly around using the ships and travelling to islands to kill the most powerful and rewarding creeps. However, due to the fact that the Laboratory was less guarded than a Shipyard, Zeppelin was both an easier and more efficient option. It's not an easy thing to implement in a balanced way, especially since Blizzard themselves didn't care enough to even use it in any of their Melee maps.

    (#4) I never was a fan of Fountains of Health, mostly because they meant that every unit that escaped combat on low health would very soon come back with all its hit points intact. Changing the Fountains' healing from being percantage based to point based would get rid of the advantage that Orc players have and reduce the overall strength of Fountains of Health. It could heal about 3 hitpoints per second, high enough to be still usable, but low enough to punish those who constantly retreat to it, as they'd spend much more time healing, thus sacrificing their presence on the map and allowing their opponents to creep and harass safely.
    The power of the Mana Fountain could also be reduced to regenerate about 1 to 1.5 mana per second.
     
  7. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    We're aiming to develop the official ladder into something more (hence why the thread is in Patch Discussion).
    When it comes to Hive's melee, we have this: Defining and Placement of Melee Maps with Meagre Changes

    I for one would want to include more diversity not keep what we have and push it through everywhere.
    Yes and we'll only be left with night elves regenerating faster during the night, humans as orcs and undead faster if near the fountain there is blight. But, the compromise would be far better than it is now.
     
  8. Sieben

    Sieben

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    Even if ladder should have priority, I think considering games against AI too wouldn't be totally irrelevant. I'm only speaking for myself of course, but I enjoy games against computer. Firstly, because I'm not a very good ladder player and I get crushed by other humans most of the time. :p
    But most importantly, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's not easy to find games with a certain number of human players. I like playing melee maps with many players (6v6, 3v3v3, or even more since 1.29 update), and it's not possible in ladder. I'm not even sure if it is possible to find that many players on battle.net nowadays? Even 3v3 ladder games are not easy to find-I couldn't find any when I tried recently.

    Now, this being said, I would love to see naval fights in melee games (especially if it includes AI!), and there are interesting ideas in the original post. Also, why not allowing each race to build their own shipyard, instead of or in addition to neutral shipyards? Shipyard models already exist for each race, there wouldn't be much work needed.
     
  9. Mr.Henci

    Mr.Henci

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    @Sieben if we want to be serious, no naval. Pro's wouldn't accept it, most of the ladder players neither. If you want ships, try @Kam Beyond the Throne maps.
     
  10. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Problem is, pros are just too stuck on what they already know. Maybe if they'd test beforehand, who knows.
     
  11. Sieben

    Sieben

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    Well these are just thoughts in order to add new features to an old game and keep it fun and appealing. If Blizzard does nothing with these ideas, we'll just enjoy custom stuff such as Kam's indeed :) But at least this is worth discussing. As Deepstrasz said, who know where it can go?
    Plus, naval gameplay doesn't have to be in every single melee map. Maybe just a few of them, for example. It would add diversity and novelty into the game, I'd like that.
     
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Edited Blizzard's Hurricane Isles to try these ideas we were putting here. Layout wise the map isn't too balanced.

    • Replaced the fountain in the mid with a random dragon roost.
    • Replaced Marketplaces with random fountains (=/=Fountain of Power currently).
    • Added a random mercenary camp for each of the (4) center turtle camps.
    • Removed sporadic low level makrura units which got in the way of scouting.
    • Placed guardians near each laboratory.
    • Added more trees around gold mines.



    OBJECT DATA EDITS AND TRIGGERS

    Dragon Roosts: the tenth level dragons will only last 60 seconds after they are bought. All drakes now have a stock delay of 600 instead of 440s.

    Mercenary Camps:
    • Ashenvale: replaced Thunder Lizard with Giant Wolf (same level; Critical Strike).
    • Barrens: replaced Harpy Windwitch with Harpy Rogue (same level; no spells).
    • Felwood: increased stock start delay of Sludge Flinger form 330 to 400; replaced Satyr Soulstealer with Giant Spider (level 4; Poison without attack or movement slow, Ensnare).
    • Icecrown Glacier: replaced Polar Furbolg Shaman with Nerubian Seer (level 5; Abolish Magic, Raise Dead); increased cost of Magnataur Warrior to 350 gold from 340 and 30 lumber from 15, also increased stock start delay to 500 from 440.
    • Lordaeron Fall: replaced Gnoll Warden with Gnoll Assassin (same level; Poison without slow); replaced Gnoll Brute with Forest Troll Shadow Priest (level 2; Heal, Abolish Magic); replaced Ogre Magi with Ogre Mauler (same level; no spells).
    • Loradaeron Winter: replaced the Ice Troll Trapper with Ogre Mauler (level 5; no spells).
    • Sunken Ruins: replaced Makrura Deepseer with Sea Giant (level 3; Pulverize).
    • Village: replaced Murloc Huntsman with Sasquatch (level 5; no spells).
    • Cityscape/Dalaran: replaced Rogue with Deceiver (level 3; Curse).

    Goblin Shipyards:
    reduced the stock of Transport Ships to 1 from 3 and reduced their movements speed to 300 from 320, added 60s stock delay. Added Frigates (1 per stock; 2 food; 300s stock delay, 150s stock replenish) and Battleships (1 per stock; 3 food; 400s stock delay, 200s stock replenish). Ship appearance is based on player's race.

    Goblin Laboratory: increased stock replenish of Zeppelins to 100s from 30s. Undead players will get a Sky Barge instead. Guards can see invisible units and do not sleep.

    Goblin Merchant guards do not sleep at night anymore. They also can see invisible units.

    Fountains: made the Fountain of Health regenerate 3 hit points per second instead of 1% of maximum hit points. Same with the Fountain of Mana except it only restores 2 mana points per second. They will only activate after the neutral hostile guardians near them are dead.

    Items:
    • Crystal Ball now only has 2 charges
    • Diamond of Summoning has only one charge now.
    • Staff of Silence now only has 2 charges.
    • Rune of the Watcher's ward lasts 300s, not infinite.


    Please share your thoughts.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  13. SadisticLeprechaun

    SadisticLeprechaun

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    I like those changes of creeps not sleeping, I have done that on my maps as well.

    I also like the random idea, and on my altered maps I took the merc camps and an additional 8 new ones I made and make each merc camp on a map random between the 20-something buildings, keeps it fresh. Same with Marketplace, I made a bunch of new items stores (potions, scrolls, weapons, etc) and anywhere a Marketplace is places, instead is a random building between all the item buildings. It adds an urgency to explore the map and means standard strats based on grabbing boots of speed and such are not always viable.
     
  14. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    We should have the time of not being able to use the shop anymore instantly cut when the hero distances from the shop because now you can buy items on the run from an almost 600 range.

    EDIT: I also suggest Way Gates having visible (either by deactivation animation and/or floating text) cooldown to avoid cheap in and out tactics. Now, once you enter a Way Gate, there is a time you can do this in and out thing until it deactivates for an amount of time.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
  15. Wrda

    Wrda

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    No one would play a normal melee map with a fountain that literally just heals 3 hp per second. Even wards, rejuvenation and healing items have way more regen per sec than just 3hp/s. It would take ages for units to be at full health, percentage wise is the fairest.
    I mean, if you're going to do this sort of stuff, at the very least call it a altered melee map, that's fine, but don't claim it as a standard melee map.
     
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I advise you to read what this thread is about.

    As you wrote, there are means to heal yourself faster which are not permanent. That's the idea. Current fountains of health are too powerful hence why rarely if not at all seen in ladder.
     
  17. map designer

    map designer

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    The Big dragon Can only be summoned when you kill the guarding dragons yourself. the building will refuse to sell any units so long as its guards are standing.

    but then the undead shade will ruin the balance lol.
     
  18. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Another thing that could be implemented to fountains is shorter range (zone of action) for their regeneration abilities. That way, neutral hostile groups could be placed so that during the night you could not use the fountain without killing the creeps first which would be blocking the way to the fountain's regeneration AoE. Well, that won't stop Wind Walk of course...
    I still prefer the idea of the creeps having to be killed first before the guarded fountain become active.
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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