Israel

[Mor)L(unE]

Your generalising, theres a difference between the people of palestina and the hamas. The UN gave gaza and stuff the the people of palestina, not to terrorists, besides that palestine was given to the jews. And the palestines couldn't do anything about it, they have the fullest right to be angry, and since they are the underdog.. use terrorism.

How would you feel if your country is given to the people you hate most?
See it from that point of view, i think the israeli are the bad guys.

And... were did you get YOUR information from then ehh?

 

[I)eadnerzhul]

use terrorism.

Are you kidding? Seriously, is this a joke? Kill innocent people because the Jews were "given" the land that is theirs? You must understand that Israel always belonged to the Jews. The thing is that different nations always came and occupied/took control of it from the Jews.

And... were did you get YOUR information from then ehh?

It came from people living in Israel, who know better Anti-Semi people who live across the sea.

 

[Hakeem]

I think I've clearly said to everyone that Israel is at fault...people have such a lovely way of ignoring things.

I know. That is why you must make it crystal clear in every post. At least then when someone replies to your post you can show them that you already said that in the post they reply to.

This isn't MT.

They are likewise not innocent little lambs, that everyone should boohoo over saying that the devil Israeli's cruelly went into a house and hacked a baby to pieces and ate it's flesh.. That is life, it happens.

Yeah, and normally the people that do that get copious amounts of infamy and execution, on account of being depraved cursed individuals that sometimes show up now and then.

Do not misread the above reply as an analogy. It is not. I was replying to the "That's life." part that is often used to justify things.

Israel warned the Palestinians to evacuate. I suppose we have that established, yes? If Israel WANTED to kill Palestinians, it would have just ignored them.

Or it wanted to obscure motive.

What's the point in warning people to flee if you want to kill them?

You know that applies not only to the citizens that they supposedly did not want to attack as well as the enemies they did want to attack don't you? You tell the citizens to move and the enemies you were targeting will move too.

The only answer I can give, it that Israel wanted to steal the land away from the people living there.

Another thing, why would Israel want to kill Palestinians to begin with? What's their motive?

Getting the bad guys. They don't care about not hurting civilians. They are so hell-bent on getting the bad guys they don't care the cost.

And yet another thing... why do you keep ignoring the fact that you have no proof for any of your statements?

Why do you? It's honestly fun to take purely your own statements and use them to show why your conclusion is wrong.

The media is so biased against Israel and Jews in general it's ridiculous... they will bend the truth as much they can in order to make Israel sound like "the bad guy", which it is not.

To hell it isn't. You don't go around killing civilians and still pretend to not be "bad guys".

And if you DIDN'T get your information from the news, where did you get it from? Hmmm?

As I said before, directly from your posts.

It came from people living in Israel, who know better Anti-Semi people who live across the sea.

Then you are no closer to knowing the truth than any of the rest of us. You aren't there to witness it yourself, and neither are we. Heck, you could claim to be in Israel yourself, witnessing this stuff, and people still wouldn't believe you.

It makes no difference to me. You have given a set of actions taken by Israel, and you try to justify them, when clearly there is no justification. Israel is in the wrong, no matter their reasoning for their actions.

 

[Hoernchen]

Religion is too blame. I am not having a go at Jews (or muslims) here. But the sole cause of this conflict is religion, just like in most other wars. I don't think that Judaism or Islam are at fault, but Religion in total, no matter which one.

If there was no religion then there is no martyrdom and come on lets not kid ourselves, if instead of Jews, Muslims would have been granted the creating of a state near Palestine, then they'd definitely have received a different welcome.
The very foundation of most religions is to obliterate and kill other religions. The 1st commandment is "Thou shall have no god but me" and there are multiple incidents in the bible where the killing of people with different faiths is encouraged.

 

[I)eadnerzhul]

I think, out of all of us, you gave the best answer to the Israel/Hamas conflict. It is true that most conflicts have something or other to due with religion. I agree with all your points except this one:

and there are multiple incidents in the bible where the killing of people with different faiths is encouraged.

I don't know too much about the "bibles" of any other religion besides my own, but in the Jewish "Tanach" ("Torah" [five books of Moses), "Nevi'im" [the prophets], and "Ketuvi'im" [literally "the writings"; different stories based in various periods]), there is no such case. In the history of the Jews, no one is ever encouraged to hate. No one is ever encouraged to kill other religions. They ARE, however, commanded to protect Israel from invasion, and as such, are "allowed" to attack terrorist groups situated in Israel (Gaza, for example), in order to help prevent more attacks on Israel.

Hakeem, Israel warned the Palestinians regardless of Hamas or not because they cared for the Palestinians' safety. They did not try to "cover it up", as you said, for there is nothing to cover up! The Palestinians may have even died for their religion alongside Hamas for all we know (not that we do and not that I believe that). Unfortunately, we probably never will.

 

[Hoernchen]

there is no such case. In the history of the Jews, no one is ever encouraged to hate. No one is ever encouraged to kill other religions.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

All religions are like this, not just the old testimony. Religion and human rights just are mutually exclusive.
Religion of most kinds promotes Genocide, Murder, Rape, Human Sacrifice, Slavery, Sexism, Homophobia, Pillaging and is even anti-crippled people!

Don't say that I am just talking shit, I researched this and know a lot more about religion than most people that consider themselves 'faithful'.

 

[Coremarine]

Well first off let me say i'm not anti Israel. This whole things really started back in WW II. At the end of WW II the Jewish people were given the country of Palastine. The Palastinenes and neighboring countries got angry (who wouldnt). so they all attacked Israel. I don't think what Palastine and Israel are doing is right. But really Europe and America is the one to blame, we gave the Jewish people the land. And people there aren't any good guys in the conflict over there. There both blowing up schools and killing innocints. Both of them are wrong... Heres proof that both of em r wrong.
Palastine- Launching rockets into Israel and killing civilans (mind my spelling)
Israel- They refuse to let medical supplies into there country...

So really there both evil

The media is so biased against Israel and Jews in general it's ridiculous... they will bend the truth as much they can in order to make Israel sound like "the bad guy", which it is not. And if you DIDN'T get your information from the news, where did you get it from? Hmmm?

Lol wow, thats not true. the news is pro Israel. What news channel are u watching?

It came from people living in Israel, who know better Anti-Semi people who live across the sea.

if i was researching on a topic, lets say WW II. And i asked a German who was the bad guy during the war who do u think he would say was the bad guy? And if i asked an American the same question, what would he say? You cant get your info from the people who are in the conflict, you'll just get a one sided opinion.

 

[Firelord213]

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

All religions are like this, not just the old testimony. Religion and human rights just are mutually exclusive.
Religion of most kinds promotes Genocide, Murder, Rape, Human Sacrifice, Slavery, Sexism, Homophobia, Pillaging and is even anti-crippled people!

Don't say that I am just talking shit, I researched this and know a lot more about religion than most people that consider themselves 'faithful'.

Are you sure you didn't take out these verses out of context (Or W/E you call it)(Just taking out some parts that make it sound like a violent religion)

People did that to verses of Quran, But when those people read the verse after and before that verse from the Quran they'll change their mind.

 

[I)eadnerzhul]

Your excerpt means the following:

If a JEW asks you to worship idols with him, you must bring him to court and have him tried. If he is found guilty (which would require atleast TWO witnesses), he is killed.

If a JEW worships idols in public, you bring him to court, have him tried with atleast TWO witnesses, and if he is guilty, kill him.

The problem is that you probably found it off a non-Jewish book. Even if you got it from a Hebrew/English book, you need commentaries. Otherwise you'll get confused and misinterpret what you read.

 

[Firelord213]

Ok I went to ''aftonbladet.se'', You can ask question to an Israeli family who lives in a part which has been/is being bombed by Hamas.
My question never got put up, Only 10 people were allowed to ask -.-...

Someone asked,
''Why are you not leaving your home so you will risk your life and your childrens life for the home its safer to leave and be any place else for the moment..''

Reply from the Family:
This is my home, This is where we belong. We have built a home here. We must survive, and where would we go? We could go to a town in Israel where the rockets do not reach, but this could change. On the mornings, we try to establish the procedures to work.

If people who have Money and can afford to leave when they're in danger don't leave their homes, Why the heck would poor people who can't afford water leave theirs?

For you who think I'm lying,
Then use Google translator to translate the Swedish text into English, And I screen shotted the Chat.

Image

 

[3rgytr54]

I know. That is why you must make it crystal clear in every post. At least then when someone replies to your post you can show them that you already said that in the post they reply to.

This isn't MT.

It is very, very far from it.

Anyway,

Israel did not always belong to the Jews, but only in 2000BC to about 600-700AD (Guesstimated time) with breaks in the middle. After WW2 something needed to be done with the people that got displaced, so Israel was re-born. The people who lived there should be mad, but there are better ways to get rid of that anger.

I'm not sure who's at fault, (both, but the world won't accept that) but they have done baaaaaa-d things.


EDIT: I just read this

All religions are like this, not just the old testimony. Religion and human rights just are mutually exclusive.
Religion of most kinds promotes Genocide, Murder, Rape, Human Sacrifice, Slavery, Sexism, Homophobia, Pillaging and is even anti-crippled people!

Don't say that I am just talking shit, I researched this and know a lot more about religion than most people that consider themselves 'faithful'.

Really? Don't bend one example to point your cause, Show me ten examples from 5 religions and I'll believe you. They must be major, not some cult in the back streets of Miami. Also, zealots might be faithful to their cause- but true believers take a grain of salt with it.

Are you sure you didn't take out these verses out of context (Or W/E you call it)(Just taking out some parts that make it sound like a violent religion)

People did that to verses of Quran, But when those people read the verse after and before that verse from the Quran they'll change their mind.

I was going to say something about that then- you got to it before me, that is how terrorists work. And it is spelled Qur'an

 

[Coremarine]

I)eadnerzhul y r u so defensive of Israel? Both Israel and Palastine are wrong. Palastine should try and solve this peacefully and the UN didn't have the right to kick out palastine and give it to the Jewish people. Israel needs to pull out of Gaza. Civillian casualaties are not exceptable. You need to see both sides of this conflict. In war there is never a good guy or a bad guy.

 

[Firelord213]

I was going to say something about that then- you got to it before me, that is how terrorists work. And it is spelled Qur'an

I didn't understand what you meant with what I highlighted.

 

[Elenai]

*sigh*

This whole messy debate, and the war of which the debate is over

In summary..

Yet another piece of evidence that tells me "mankind is utterly depraved, and evil"

 

[Mor)L(unE]

You must understand that Israel always belonged to the Jews.

Please explain.

It came from people living in Israel, who know better Anti-Semi people who live across the sea.

Judging from the point of view it came from Isrealites, which means your information is less objective then the media, thereby ridiculing everything you say.

 

[Eleandor]

violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, Isaac Asimov

That goes to both sides. Both sides are wrong, both sides are incompetent. End of discussion.

(Oh, and you must understand that if Israel belongs to anyone, it would be to us, christians. After all, it was there that our saviour was born. But I'm sure you won't understand that because you're so convinced of yourself)

 

[Hoernchen]

If you want to see why religion is evil:

Click here

It has many pages of proof from the bible/torah, that religion promotes all kind of horrible things and seriously, misinterpret? Yea, maybe the lines before "kill everyone who doesn't" believe in me where "Hey, listen to this, but don't take it serious ", seriously who are you kidding, there is no hidden meaning or out of context in those lines.
Just check that page and you'll find enough examples of the horrors of the bible/torah.
And for the Qu'ran, it's no better I doubt.

 

[I)eadnerzhul]

(Oh, and you must understand that if Israel belongs to anyone, it would be to us Jews, since the good Lord promised Avraham that his children would receive the land. His child was Isaac, who's son was Yaakov, who had twelve sons, who became the twelve tribes of the Jews. He did not say "lulz Jesus mah boi, u get teh holi land lololol".

I fixed your post. No thanks required.

 

[Elenai]

If you want to see why religion is evil:

You are absolutely right, Of COURSE Religion is evil, how could I ever have been so blind!?

And it seems that I have found the most diabolical person who ever lived.

This person rooted their entire being into their faith, and just look how awful this person was...Infact, if not for this person's faith, this person would have been an incredible saint who did so much good. Alas...This person had great faith, and therefore turned their life to the greatest of evils. So much so that nearly every man woman and child spits at the person's name, and wishes the person was erased from history.

The Diabolical and utterly evil person

What do you know..its Mother Teresa.

I think I proved my point.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I think I proved my point.

No, you really haven't. But then again, neither has he, so I guess all this whole "religion" tangent you people are going off on amounts to the grand total of 0 points made.

I don't understand what you people are trying to accomplish by wondering who is the "rightful owner" of Israel's land. It never crossed my mind that I should be giving my house to Indian reservations or Mayans. Land ownership is defined by who occupies it, what legal jurisdiction does it reside in, and who has the power to back it up. Borders solidify out of a desire for nonviolence. Compensation for anything occurring millenia ago is out of the question.

 

[Elenai]

I was merely trying to point out his error, when he states with absolute opinion, that ALL religion is evil, and in chained reference, that people with religions must therefore be to some degree evil. (which is not accurate, it is not religion that is evil, or makes people evil, it is the reverse)

Back on topic.

I don't understand what you people are trying to accomplish by wondering who is the "rightful owner" of Israel's land. It never crossed my mind that I should be giving my house to Indian reservations or Mayans. Land ownership is defined by who occupies it, what legal jurisdiction does it reside in, and who has the power to back it up. Borders solidify out of a desire for nonviolence. Compensation for anything occurring millenia ago is out of the question.

Exactly.

 

[I)eadnerzhul]

I do believe Israel meets these requirements... As you know, it has military superiority. It has its own government. It has declared its independence a while ago.

 

[RED BARON]

Well first off let me say i'm not anti Israel. This whole things really started back in WW II. At the end of WW II the Jewish people were given the country of Palastine.

Wrong, it really was a british controlled protectorate (given to them in 1922) due to the fact that the the Ottoman Empire had collapsed. It was named something similar to this: The Palastine Protectorate (translating so might be wrong)
After WWII some of it was given too the jews, and the other contries like libanon and similar appeared. So it wasnt a country, and they wasnt given it all. Then a highly discussed FN resolution made it possible for the zionist movement to make isreal in a part of Palastine in 1948.

The Palastinenes and neighboring countries got angry (who wouldnt). so they all attacked Israel.

Wrong, in 1967 Isreal was attacked by Syrien, Libanon and Egypt, but they easily countered the attack and occupied the rest of palastine (including gaza and west bank) and parts of Egypt and Syrien.

I don't think what Palastine and Israel are doing is right. But really Europe and America is the one to blame, we gave the Jewish people the land.

Inded very true, we had a perfect chance to do something good and completly spoiled it. Great Britian actually declared in 1917 that it would support the creation of Israel (it wasnt named that though in that time, and the name: Israel is still discussed, as it is actually aint a name for a country, but more a name a place in a country (palastine))

And people there aren't any good guys in the conflict over there.

Don't be so generalizing, there are many people working for a stop of the war, and many innocents.

There both blowing up schools and killing innocints. Both of them are wrong... Here is proof that both of them are wrong.

Actually that aint proof, and Palastine havent blown up a school, unlike Isreal.

Palastine- Launching rockets into Israel and killing civilans (mind my spelling)

Yea, they killed 3 in a whole year. (Please notice that they have already lost that amount in the short time the conflict have been going on)

Israel- They refuse to let medical supplies into there country...

And just a little bit more like:
Food (they really have been many times)
People (as quite many are refused acces too their jobs)
The Press (Mostly in times of conflict though - Hint the reference to Burma doing the same thing, and Isreal is supposed to be a Democrati)

So really there both evil

What a wierd conclusion, people can never be condemned evil or good, people aint that simple.

Lol wow, thats not true. the news is pro Israel. What news channel are u watching?

That really depends on what country your from, many of USA channels are pro Isreal.

if i was researching on a topic, lets say WW II. And i asked a German who was the bad guy during the war who do u think he would say was the bad guy? And if i asked an American the same question, what would he say? You cant get your info from the people who are in the conflict, you'll just get a one sided opinion.

That really is a lousy example. I honestly believe that many, if not almost all of them would answear it was the nazi party - and if they know their history maybe the amount of money the owned after WW I
And a american would propably answear something similar.

Sorry for just taking you post as an example, but it allowed me to set things a little more straight - considering all the historical incorrectness which this tread have been experiencing.

A little remark, it was first in 1897 that the Jews first made claims for Palastine.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do believe Israel meets these requirements... As you know, it has military superiority. It has its own government. It has declared its independence a while ago.

So if you have military superiority then you are the owner of a country - Interresting, might make war more usefull. Invade a country and have better weapons and more weapons then the targetted country Equals you have the right to own the country. Not very likely.

And If you want more reference: Yes Isreal have its own goverment, so does Palastine and it have declared independence, like Palastine. So why does that matter?

For a more historical reference: Isreals borders still havent been defined, and the borders used by FN in based on the borders Israel had in 1949 at the peaceline.

 

[Hoernchen]

I said religion is evil. Not the people in it. But usually if you have idols that are ethically fucked up, you have a higher chance of becoming corrupt yourself.
A good person will do good no matter what, or you think Mother Teresa would have become a thief/murderer if she didn't have the guidance of the "good book".

There is a difference between belief, religion, church and people. Belief is ok, even though sometimes dumb. Religion is twisted and evil. Church is exploiting that evil. People aren't 100% what they follow, most people on this planet are conformists.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

Enough of the religion tangent? Religion is neither good nor evil, it merely is. With the exception of athiesm (and possibly several others), religion exists for people to A) use as a means of guidance to save their souls (salvation, nirvana, etc.), which is arguably the opposite of evil, or to B) explain the world around them. However else religion is used is based completely on the person; you said it yourself, a good person will always do good, regardless of religion; the same can easily be said for evil persons as well.

 

[Hoernchen]

Yes, but in countries where religion and state are one, you can beat your wife, kill people, do despicable things and be socially accepted for doing so. I haven't seen one case where religion benefited a society (yes, sometimes a person, but never a society), but hundreds where people are killed, start wars, raped, stoned, discriminated because of religion.

Also, it a statistic fact that atheist usually are better people, even though this doesn't seem logical to theists. 76% of prison inmates of the US are christian, 0.2% are atheists. This considering that also about 76% of Americans are christians and 16% are atheists shows that atheists actually have more moral standards.
Furthermore, 93% of scientists are agnostics or atheists. Scientists aren't exactly a group labelled as imoral, evil or dumb. (Except in evil genius movies)

 

[Hakeem]

Religion is too blame. I am not having a go at Jews (or muslims) here. But the sole cause of this conflict is religion, just like in most other wars. I don't think that Judaism or Islam are at fault, but Religion in total, no matter which one.

Oh, as long as Islam is not at fault I'm fine.

I don't understand what your definition of religion is, but as long as Islam has no faults, I'm fine with that.

The very foundation of most religions is to obliterate and kill other religions.

Do not make unfounded generalizations. It only serves to make you look like an idiot. For your sake, please do not do this.

The 1st commandment is "Thou shall have no god but me" and there are multiple incidents in the bible where the killing of people with different faiths is encouraged.

Attacking Christianity by no means attacks the rest of religion.

All religions are like this, not just the old testimony. Religion and human rights just are mutually exclusive.

Please, you only make yourself look like an idiot when you talk about thing of which you have absolutely no knowledge.

Religion of most kinds promotes Genocide, Murder, Rape, Human Sacrifice, Slavery, Sexism, Homophobia, Pillaging and is even anti-crippled people!

Please, I beg you to stop, you'll only hurt yourself with these unfounded assertions.

Don't say that I am just talking shit, I researched this and know a lot more about religion than most people that consider themselves 'faithful'.

You don't make yourself smart just by saying you are. At this point, I'm not sure you'll be able to convince anyone that your aren't an idiot.

Yet another piece of evidence that tells me "mankind is utterly depraved, and evil"

Notice how everyone had been condemning the actions of both sides?

I hope you don't mind me attacking your assertion that people are bad.

And for the Qu'ran, it's no better I doubt.

You almost have me convinced that you are completely ignorant and have no idea what you are talking about. Please, stop, before your reputation is shattered.

I said religion is evil. Not the people in it.

I can see where you are coming from here. People never do anything at all, it is only religion that takes any action. My grandfather was shot by a statue of Zeus. Everyone else in the room was just pretending to shoot with their blanks.

A good person will do good no matter what

Contradicting yourself is one of the worst things for your image. Please try not to do so in the future. I can only pray that anybody still thinks you know anything at all.

I haven't seen one case where religion benefited a society

You may be able to save your reputation if you study. You got lucky on this statement by only saying what you have seen, which is all anybody can do, so you haven't said that religion has never benefited a society. If you study you should hopefully find an example of a society that has, and then you can say an absolute next time and not worry about being ignorant of many things.

Furthermore, 93% of scientists are agnostics or atheists.

How many percent of people are scientists? There is something to be said of the wisdom found in a minority.

Scientists aren't exactly a group labelled as imoral, evil or dumb.

They are if you study their history. They've done some unspeakable things just to prove their points.

 

[Hoernchen]

Hakeem, had you even bothered to click the link I previously posted (here it is once again: Link) you would see that I have not just unfounded claims, but Pages! of evidence coming right from the bible/to'rah that proof all of my claims, and these documents aren't written by some god-hating atheist, but by God himself according to the church.

I have done a lot of study on religion, and I can find plenty of resources to back up these claims, but they would probably not fit in a single post.

So I will rebate your arguements.
I think of Bhuddism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc different than of religions like Christianity, Islam, Judaism. The main difference you will find is that Bhuddists for example are allowed to worship other gods. So for the sake of the arguement, the only religions I am going to talk about are: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

Attacking Christianity by no means attacks the rest of religion.

Christianity comes from Judaism. They both worship the same god, the only difference being that Judaism thinks Moses is the Prophet, not Jesus.
Islam actually is extremely similar to Judaism, and believes into these prophets:
-Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus
Yea, probably just coincidence. Just people who happened to do really similar things to the people in the christian/jewish bibles and share the same names.

Originally Posted by Hoernchen
Religion of most kinds promotes Genocide, Murder, Rape, Human Sacrifice, Slavery, Sexism, Homophobia, Pillaging and is even anti-crippled people!

Please, I beg you to stop, you'll only hurt yourself with these unfounded assertions.

Unfounded? Well of course, it is impossible for someone who doesn't agree to your views to actually be telling the truth. Anyways, evidence is aplenty:

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Sex Slaves
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Rape = Marriage
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.


I think I have proven that point. This is but a fraction of sources supporting my statements. Do not ask me to show more sources, that is just ridiciolous.
Also, please refrain from making the claim that these are taken out of context, etc. Because you know they are not.

Originally Posted by Hoernchen
I said religion is evil. Not the people in it.

I can see where you are coming from here. People never do anything at all, it is only religion that takes any action. My grandfather was shot by a statue of Zeus. Everyone else in the room was just pretending to shoot with their blanks.

Haha, funny. Ideas have devastating effects on humans. Most Germans didn't want the holocaust, but when you can get shot for helping a Jew, you do tend to not befriend them. Kids are incredibly easy to brainwash. If you get raised to do something, you will usually do it, since kids will do despicable things if they are taught it is the right thing to do.
Beliefs are dangerous, because when a person believes into something wrong, they will do it and feel like they have done the right thing.


If anything, you should have done your studies. If you really want a few good sources on why religion is either bad, stupid or incredibly evil, these people/movies/books/... might enlighten you:
-Friedrich Nietzsche
-Arthur Schopenhauer
-The founding fathers of America
-Zeitgeist (movie)
-Religulous (movie)
-Thus spake Zarathustra (book)
-The Anti-Christ (book)
-Patcondell (youtube channel)
-Google

 

[InfiniteSeven]

Religion is neither good or evil.

People only observe it as such. The way that religion is interpreted and the way that it is seen in the eyes of different people affect whether religion is truly good or evil, but in fact religion is neither - its merely a system of beliefs and culture, there are no good religions or evil religions, its all above how its seen, how the cryptic messages and actions are interpreted.

Whether someone sees religion as good or evil, it doesn't change the fact that there is another who observes religion in a different perspective. There really isn't a bias in the alignment of a religion - its really something that can be observed differently from many perspectives.


The crisis in Gaza, whatever caused it, is definitely something that shouldn't have been started - it's merely a waste of lives. Old grudges should be thrown aside in my opinion, rather than starting a war.

 

[Firelord213]

-Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus
Yea, probably just coincidence. Just people who happened to do really similar things to the people in the christian/jewish bibles and share the same names.

You fool.
First of all, No one today knows how many prophets there are in Islam.
As every group of people in the world have gotten atleast 1 prophet.

Secondly, We don't believe in a copy of Jesus (Isa), We Believe in Jesus (Isa) as our prophet.

We Believe that people edited what he said and started changing the faith etc and worshipping Jesus (Isa).

Therefore Muhammed came and restored it, And that is why things that is said in the Quran are similar to the Bible, because we believe that the real stories were edited and the true ones were restored in the Quran.

Correct me Hakeem If I'm wrong :S

And could anyone tell me how the heck we got into the Subject that Religion is evil.

The Palestine-israeli conflict is not about Religion, It's about Zionists kicking out Palestinians from Palestine.

 

[Hoernchen]

I will stand by my point that religion is the worst thing in the world, right next to racism and nationalism.

I already voiced my opinion that the conflict would not have started if both sides were of the same religion.

 

[RED BARON]

And could anyone tell me how the heck we got into the Subject that Religion is evil.

Because of the claim that religion was the cause for the war, because religion always is evil (acording to some no names said)

Hakeem, had you even bothered to click the link I previously posted (here it is once again: Link) you would see that I have not just unfounded claims, but Pages! of evidence coming right from the bible/to'rah that proof all of my claims, and these documents aren't written by some god-hating atheist, but by God himself according to the church.

Oh so the homepage Evilbible is the most reliable source to find out such things interresting. Try checking out the bible, the Quaran, To-rah in its original form.

I have done a lot of study on religion, and I can find plenty of resources to back up these claims, but they would probably not fit in a single post.

So you chosed your most reliable one, a homepage with the good sounding name Evilbible (I honestly doesn't think: conspiration theori when I hear it) and of course it doesn't say anything about what your other sources are.

So I will rebate your arguements.
I think of Bhuddism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc different than of religions like Christianity, Islam, Judaism. The main difference you will find is that Bhuddists for example are allowed to worship other gods. So for the sake of the arguement, the only religions I am going to talk about are: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

Actually the main difference is that only those 3 are worldwide accepted religions, which Hinduism and Bhuddism ain't. By the way, you can always worship other gods in Christian, Juaism and Islam, but then you won't really be a christian or similar. Same goes for all the others which you say "allows it". In the end it really depens on how extreme you are.

Christianity comes from Judaism. They both worship the same god, the only difference being that Judaism thinks Moses is the Prophet, not Jesus.
Islam actually is extremely similar to Judaism, and believes into these prophets:
-Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus
Yea, probably just coincidence. Just people who happened to do really similar things to the people in the christian/jewish bibles and share the same names.

Firelord explained this quite perfect so not much to say. Oh and by the way: The main difference between Christians and Jews is that the jews doesn't believe Jesus is God's son, but they do believe he was a profet. And please don't say: The profet, there was more then one, and Moses wasn't compared to Jesus in that way you describe.

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Oh yea this is written. But really I can't say anything else then I can clearly see that this aint from the original work - meaning this is an version which have been changed according to beliefs. Just take the notice about Moses coming down from the mountain and see them praying to a golden Cow, and he got pissed. But I didnt see anything about him killing them all.... And your example doesn't state that one person only would have to do it. Try consider at what time this is from. Towns really ain't that big, and it would be normal for the entire town to have almost the same belief.

Infidels and Gays Should Die
(Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

No wonder, look at your source - we are talking ages ago. Those actions was seen as disgusting in the whole sociaty - and not just because of religion. Not to mention that cases like these was extremely rare. So this doesnt prove anything

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Notice the: Make ready to. It only notify you to keep close watch over sons of sinners, as they may well rise against you. By the way it was commen to kill most of the family in order to avoid revenge - not just because of religion. Again think about the Time.

Kill Men, Women, and Children
(Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Take a good look at the one you wrote as source, he is known to write like that, and he aint a original source. Also this refers to a specific event and aint a law. So again this proves nothing. Its just normal war.

More Rape and Baby Killing
(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Again this ain't a law. This is taken out of context (Which the text also clearly states) And it is about a specific point in a story about a war. Religious text can be filled with things like this, mostly when it describes the enemy.

Sex Slaves
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

I really wonder about you now - Try thinking about the time! This is actually a good law, which creates some for their time proper laws about slaves. Its actually sad to see you writing things which works as proof against your own claims.

Rape = Marriage
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

I can only say the same I just said. Think about the time. This is actually again a good law, due to the fact that a violated woman would
be doomed to a painfull exsistens, which this law prevents (Of course in a manner which fits the (in their time) current sociaty)

I think I have proven that point. This is but a fraction of sources supporting my statements. Do not ask me to show more sources, that is just ridiciolous.
Also, please refrain from making the claim that these are taken out of context, etc. Because you know they are not.

So you have just proven yourself wrong. And you refuse to back up any of your claims. And you won't allow people to actually see the things as they are. That just what you wrote in short terms. Interresting

If anything, you should have done your studies.

And you should actually read your own sources and study some history. Else you really can't prove a thing. Sorry

That should be all about the "religion is evil" for now I hope.

 

[Firelord213]

I really don't think the bible is like Hoernchen makes it look like:

Infidels and Gays Should Die
(Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Sex Slaves
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Srsly, gief us real verses nao pl0x?

 

[Hoernchen]

RedBaron, the site I linked, has the source of all their texts written right under the text, I even copied it. So if you really think it is such an unreliable source, open a new tab, go to google, copy where it tells you the source and then click a button. You will surprisingly find multiple results :O o wonder, they must all be corrupt. Even handier, if you actually have a bible you can look it up yourself.

Then of course, I forgot the "it was war and society was different back then" factor.
Well, then that makes the Holocaust ok too? Cause it was war?
You somehow have the weird idea that morals are bound to time? What kind of fucked up moral system is that? "Dear citizens, today is new year, gang rape is now moral!"
And of course, Sex Slaves can be justified too! Because of the times! And as you said, Sex Slaves are good, I mean imagine those people didn't have a book telling them that slavery is ok, they would do the despicable thing of releasing people to freedom.

And yes, latest surveys have shown that women who have been raped want to be married to the brutal disgusting rapist. Who wouldn't?



Basically, your arguements are:
Everything has to be taken lightly, because it wasn't today.
Ever heard of Saudi Arabia? Well, those laws are actually 100% in work there. If a married women is rapped, she is killed, and the rapist is killed because he "abused the other man's property". Well, that pretty much shows how things change over a few centuries, surprise they dont!!! TADA!

My source does not count, because it is a biased site? Well, true, but all the texts on the site are actually taken out from the bible, not altered in any way and if you use a bible or search engine, you will find that they are all REAL.

Then again, your arguement that all these texts are old...excuse me, maybe I missed out, but when did the bible/qu'ran/to'rah last get updated? Oh, right, it doesn't....and people still use it to carry out death penalties around the world. In case you didn't notice, people still follow what the bible says, literally. 60% of Americans believe that Genesis is literally true, with the talking snake and everything.

Also, what's up with the "it isn't a law" thing? If God decides to kill half the earth's population because of a special occasion, and then doesn't do it again, that's ok? Who would want to pray to such a fucked up being anyways?

And your last arguement, my texts are taken out of context. This is the typical religion-isnt-evil bullshit defense.
First, you say that a text is taken out of context, but you do not provide the missing context. Why? Because the missing context does not change the message a bit.
Let us see an example:

Me: "God kills 42 children."
Baron: "Out of context, he did it cause they mocked a monk"
Me: "Oh noez, that completely changes the context! Then of course they did deserve to be punished by being brutally slaughtered by bears."

See? Then of course, maybe in your view, it is a good thing for children to be killed by wild bears, just like making a rape victim marry its rapist is actually a good thing.

Anyways, most your arguements are as weak as the credibility of the religions they are defending. You fail to provide any evidence of occasions where religion maybe prevented a war or saved millions of peoples lifes. I cannot blame you, because it usually is harder to defend the wrong site.

I really don't think the bible is like Hoernchen makes it look like:

Infidels and Gays Should Die
(Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Sex Slaves
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Srsly, gief us real verses nao pl0x?

Your ignorance and will to simply ignore all evidence baffles me.
Since you won't belief anything I write, I suggest you open up google, copy and paste those sources and
see for yourself.

 

[Ash]

If a married women is rapped,

LOLOLOLOOLOOLOOLLOLLLLOLOLOLOOOLOOOOLLOOLLO.

Ahahaha, that tickled my pickle.

 

[Firelord213]

I'm lazy.

Any ways,

Basically, your arguements are:
Everything has to be taken lightly, because it wasn't today.
Ever heard of Saudi Arabia? Well, those laws are actually 100% in work there. If a married women is rapped, she is killed, and the rapist is killed because he "abused the other man's property". Well, that pretty much shows how things change over a few centuries, surprise they dont!!! TADA!

Since when did Saudi Arabia become Islam?
Don't say that peoples actions is a religion.
Just because Crusaders massacred civilians in the Crusades doesn't mean that it's allowed to do that in Christianity or is Christianity.
Just because there's terrorists blowing up innocents doesn't mean that it's allowed in Islam or is Islam.

Saudi Arabia does not allow Women to drive cars, No where in Islam does it say that Women are not allowed to drive cars,
Heck, My own mom drives a car and I think Saudi Arabia is the only nation who does not allow women to drive.

Your ignorance and will to simply ignore all evidence baffles me.
Since you won't belief anything I write, I suggest you open up google, copy and paste those sources and
see for yourself.

And what I meant with that was that you only post the verses out of context, You do not supply us with the verse before and after or the full verse.

 

[RED BARON]

RedBaron, the site I linked, has the source of all their texts written right under the text, I even copied it. So if you really think it is such an unreliable source, open a new tab, go to google, copy where it tells you the source and then click a button. You will surprisingly find multiple results :O o wonder, they must all be corrupt. Even handier, if you actually have a bible you can look it up yourself.

I am not going to quote on it all, but just going to agree with what firelord already said, and then add some.

First of, why the heck should I provide other proof... You really should notice I am just using your proof, and telling you what it really means. I only said one time that that particular piece of text was taken out of context, but I also wrote that it was clearly written in the text.
I tell you to consider the time because honestly there is a huge difference between now and then.

Sexslaves: Please - How can you even get yourself in such a mess ??!
They had slaves at that time (NOT because of religion) and those slaves was at times used as sex slaves - The quote you wrote states some fundamental laws about how those slaves should be treated, which is GOOD!! Because there wasnt any to begin with.

Rape leads to marriage -> This is again a good law, due to the fact that at that time you were doomed if raped. You would most likely be disowned. So this ensures that the victim is supported - Even though the way may seem strange to you - Consider it was a male dominated system.

And please again try to read - It would really help you. I never wrote sex slaves was good, I wrote that the law about them (the slaves) was good.

And Don't even try to compare the time I am talking about with Holocaust and similar. We are talking hundreds of hundreds of years ago. Those two things dont even compare at all. The world was and entire differnt thing, and it is clear that you doesnt consider the historical aspects of things.

As you might know, the world aint really the same as it was back then when most of those things was written - Or maybe you still go out in the street and buy some slaves to carry your chair?.

And yes I am doubtfull about your sources - Because a site like that really can't be used in any scientific way. But I also agreed that those quotes had inded been written (which you would have noticed if you read it). Why the hell should I bother using them as proofs for my own claims if I doubted them. As I said many times they just works against you and your claims.

btw: you might now that time and war aint the same...


And lastly to say the same as firelord:

And what I meant with that was that you only post the verses out of context, You do not supply us with the verse before and after or the full verse. This is why the one I mention out of context in, really is out of context.

Be kind, read all of the post - And try using some historical knowledge. You might be able to find some if you use google. There is not just one, there are many!

Ever heard of Saudi Arabia? Well, those laws are actually 100% in work there. If a married women is rapped, she is killed, and the rapist is killed because he "abused the other man's property". Well, that pretty much shows how things change over a few centuries, surprise they dont!!! TADA!

The married women aint killed - Unless it can't be proven that she was raped - and it only applies to most extreme cases. Most of the times she is just disowned. And btw: I never commented on married women in my former post - I commented on your quote about unmarried women.

Well and things chagned - I doubt you would even hear about people in court for such a thing in those times. It would just have been the highest ranking in the town who would judge - maybe with the help of an eldercouncil. By the way their religion in Saudi Arabia is Islam - And your quote about unmarried women wasn't.

Get your facts, times and religions straight. Not saying your using false data, just that you doesnt understand it.

 

[Hoernchen]

Since when did Saudi Arabia become Islam?
Don't say that peoples actions is a religion.
....
And what I meant with that was that you only post the verses out of context, You do not supply us with the verse before and after or the full verse.

Holy shit, and you say I do not know what I am talking about?
Saudi Arabia just happens to officially be an Islamic absolute monarchy, and has Sharia Law as an official law. They only happen to have the highest count of human rights violations world-wide.

But sure, peoples actions and religion are COMPLETELY unrelated.
I mean, it does baffle me that I never hear of an Atheist Terrorist Group, or Atheist suicide bombings...or a war caused by atheism, but yet I hear about these things every day when it comes to religion.
Of course, this is pure coincidence. The fact that you won't find any such things in the atheist department, has all NOTHING to do with religion.
Just like gay-bashings, nazis, ku klux klan and discrimination against non-christians in the US are not related to religion what so ever.

And, seriously what's up with the "im not giving you the whole story and its all out of context" bullshit you use for your defense?
When I give you a text like this:

And god killed all those 42 children by making 2 bears attack them

Do you think the next line would be something like Just kidding, he didn't?
I seriously can't imagine how you can think there is any more information you would need that completely changes the picture? Cause it is incredibly ignorant of you to deny blunt facts. It is like saying the sky is green and then claiming it were only blue cause of greenhouse gasses, thats how little sense your arguements make.

Before you even open your mouth once again, I bid you to actually study religion and not just talk bullshit, cause I have probably spent more time on researching any article about religion and why it is bad than you in your entire life. And Baron, don't be so cocky. I do research what I write, the book I am reading at the moment is not the Playboy but Thus Spake Zarathustra.

 

[Elenai]

I mean, it does baffle me that I never hear of an Atheist Terrorist Group, or Atheist suicide bombings...or a war caused by atheism

Soviet Russia, Mao's China, North Korea, Communist Vietnam, Bolshevik Revolution, French Revolution, The Great Purge, The Great Leap Forward....

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Take it to Medivh's Tower if you want to restart this, and if you do be civil about it. Locked.