Ghan_04

[Ralle]

I woke up this morning seeing that people have been talking about Ghan_04 and with him as well. It sounds to me like people hate him and find excuses for hating him.
I will be quoting a lot of the chat but not all of it cause it's TL;DR. I will first be defending some of the accusations of me and him and then I will continue talking about the matter.

Ghan_04 tried to speak for himself but as nobody believes him, it's basically a lost cause.

[Trax.] Ghan is again a part of the staff, expect alot of faggotry.
[Trax.] Well first off, what do you expect when you give an idiot all powers?

First of all. He is no idiot. Second of all I haven't seen any faggotry coming out of what he has been doing.

[PurplePoot] Also, I find it funny that he "retreated from view" because "he didn't want to be disrespected by the staff"
[PurplePoot] Makes me wonder whether he just uses prspeak or whether he honestly doesn't know why everyone dislike(d/s) him

Neither him, nor I understand why so many people dislike him.

[Trax.] He's aq child in a grown man's body.

And Trax. is a troll who does not contribute anything.

[PurplePoot] He stagnated sections of the site because he wanted the power but didn't want the responsibility
[PurplePoot] so he was in charge of xyz (hosted projects for example) yet refused to DO anything for them
[PurplePoot] so he just said "hosted projects are closed for new applications" and went afk again
[PurplePoot] Whenever he tried to do something it tended to be in someone else's area

I believe this was responded to in the chat. Basically it's because I wanted to build a system for hosted projects and then it kind of stalled.

[PurplePoot] Ralle did that because Ralle does what Ghan wants and Ghan indicated he wanted it
[PurplePoot] so Ralle was like "We can't have ghan leaving! bam"

I listen to Ghan but I don't take orders from Ghan. I wanted the drama about Ghan to stop so I took a stand/stance?.

[TriggerHappy] Ghan still has more powers than hakeem, so you'll either have to go to Ralle / Ghan for a lot of things.

This is because I deal with this stupid forum system in a very specific way and I have shown to Ghan_04 how I do so, and not yet to Hakeem.

[PurplePoot] Trax., I get the impression that appointing Ghan was more of a nod towards the helper originally
[PurplePoot] but I could be wrong
[PurplePoot] obviously it's a friend thing now
[PurplePoot] many times
[PurplePoot] they don't care

When Ghan_04 started as being part of THW staff he was extremely helpful and doing very good. Wolverabid wanted us to make him global mod but I thought he should wait and work his way up. When Wolverabid disappeared I decided it was time.

[PurplePoot] Ralle is constantly like "but he'll improve"
[PurplePoot] and then he gets worse
[PurplePoot] and we're like "but he got worse"
[PurplePoot] and Ralle is like "but he'll improve"

I don't recall any of this.

[PurplePoot] When Griffen/EF/me designed the director system, we put Ghan as the community director because he otherwise would have vetoed it (already a problem)
[General_Anon] Apparently Ghan does a lot of behind the scenes work?
[PurplePoot] and then he did absolutely nothing so we tried to get him removed so that the community section could actually have some management
[PurplePoot] (we being many staff members)
[TriggerHappy] PurplePoot, Director system is getting removed, afaik.
[PurplePoot] after like a year Hakeem got put in that position
[Trax.] General_Anon, he does nothing but thats what we are told
[aaron79] ghan cannot code
[The World Is Flat] i'm in chat often... but only been here since '09
[PurplePoot] But rather than fire ghan (which should have happened since he did NOTHING)
[TriggerHappy] Not really relevant, but w/e,
[aaron79] so that rules out a ton of shit xD
[PurplePoot] he got promoted to an even HIGHER position
[PurplePoot] =/
[aaron79] just pointing that out there
[mare] PurplePoot, hive is awesome, isnt it?
[TriggerHappy] I've seen Ghans chat kick/ban reports system.
[PurplePoot] I mean really, someone does so little that they need to be moved from a position so you promote them out of it? really?

First of all. Yes perhaps Ghan_04 got the wrong director position. But my opinion was that if we wanted a director system, Ghan_04 had to be a director simply because he knows how I want things and I trust him 100%. So moving him even further up the chain was a good idea if you ask me.

And Ghan_04 can code.

Then comes the activity question. I don't know where in the log it is but somebody said that they'd have to wait 3 weeks for Ghan_04 to respond. I will tell you a fact. The longest time he has been away from THW was 3-4 days. Aside from that he has been active pretty much every day.

You must define active. When Ghan_04 was directing the community part of the site, he followed all discussions but didn't always participate. But he was actively monitoring them.

And as you said Ghan_04 does a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff. That's a fact, not a way of hiding inactivity or anything. If I look back just the last few weeks here is a list of things he's been doing:
- responding to admin contact threads
- making a script to improve the speed of admin contact responding.
- helping out getting the last drips of speed out of the old server.
- helping out with the new server a great deal.

Activity to you sounds like a PR thing. You have to show people and tell people what you go about and do. He doesn't.

Should he be punished for that? I don't think so.

[PurplePoot] and hell, if they don't care about one of the admins bitching
[mrzwach] Ghan_04 is watching you.
[PurplePoot] I doubt they would care about some user bitching
[PurplePoot] and if he bans me for speaking the truth it will only make him look worse

Nobody is going to ban you, even if you don't speak the truth.

[PurplePoot] It's kind of scary really
[PurplePoot] Back when I was an admin, I'd give him a suggestion meaning to raise some discussion
[PurplePoot] and he'd just... do it
[PurplePoot] and I would be like "what"
[PurplePoot] no talking to anyone else, no criticism, nothing
[PurplePoot] just bam done

Yes. I have sometimes done things faster than I'd like to admit and before thinking too much about it. Especially in rage.

[PurplePoot] it took him like...
[PurplePoot] Trax., was it two months or what?
[Hakeem] Maybe he's just worried about admins quitting all the time.
[PurplePoot] It was very very fast anyways
[mare] General_Anon, frosty said to Ralle that he is weak and hive will fall if he doesnt get a better hold of it when it keeps getting more & more people at the time he got banned
[PurplePoot] He was made a spell moderator and then got promoted like a month later to a GMod and then a month or two later to an admin
[Trax.] PurplePoot, less i think
[PurplePoot] Not really sure why since he never actually did much
[PurplePoot] =/

Yes he raised to the top quickly, I agree. The only thing I could regret about it is that you didn't know him as well as I did. I should have waited till you knew as much as I knew that he should become a GMod.

[PurplePoot] The reason him and frank were promoted to GMods was because they were online the most

No. Because they were most fit for the positions.

[PurplePoot] The second time, I quit because Ghan clearly had more say over dev than I did just because he could cry to Ralle and Ralle would jump

I don't recall that.

There was more in the chat than that but I don't wanna spend all day working out this problem.

As I see it, those of you who hate him are primarily people who just want somebody to hate which is not welcome here.

At the time of his promotion both Wolverabid and I wanted him in the top.

I agree most of the things he do are not visible to you but believe me, he is a great help.

I don't understand why you hate him so much when he never flamed anyone and never disrespected anyone and is a great help to me.

I don't take orders from him and he doesn't come running shouting "Ralle do something".

I probably missed some points but they will probably surface during this thread's life.

Ralle

 

[TriggerHappy]

Ghan_04 tried to speak for himself but as nobody believes him, it's basically a lost cause.

He spoke perfectly fine, though he avoided a lot of questions and gave half ass answers.
Not to mention it took him incredibly long to defend him self (which he did in a dodgy way).

For example, he decided to leave hive for quite a while because 'people were being mean to him'. Is that the kind of person who should be the admin of hive? Someone who runs away from problems instead of confronting them directly. And from what I have seen from Ghan, he does a good job at avoiding. I understand Ghan has been helpful to you and all, but wouldn't be be more fit as an advisor, like Samuraid?

And for the record, I went into this debate completely neutral and came out of it on the opposite side of Ghan after hearing what he had to say.

This is not a personal attack on Ghan and believe he is a nice and intelligent person, but I just don't think he's a good admin for hive.

 

[Septimus]

First of all. He is no idiot. Second of all I haven't seen any faggotry coming out of what he has been doing.

QFT

Neither him, nor I understand why so many people dislike him.

Ghan was strict against rules breaker and... hey, do I seriously need to explain this part?

[PurplePoot] He stagnated sections of the site because he wanted the power but didn't want the responsibility
[PurplePoot] so he was in charge of xyz (hosted projects for example) yet refused to DO anything for them
[PurplePoot] so he just said "hosted projects are closed for new applications" and went afk again
[PurplePoot] Whenever he tried to do something it tended to be in someone else's area

Don't think it was quite accurate, Ghan have many work to manage from. He ain't moderator for hive site only as far as I know, but a mod for several site as well.

As far as I seen in the past, he manage to juggle both of it well.

When Ghan_04 started as being part of THW staff he was extremely helpful and doing very good. Wolverabid wanted us to make him global mod but I thought he should wait and work his way up. When Wolverabid disappeared I decided it was time.

Yep!!

frank were promoted to GMods was because they were online the most

This I disagree. General Frank seems to did quite a good job at where he is responsible at, he also been quite helpful when people are asking him. I have soo far never seen him act like an complete moron or run away from responsibility.

I do believe he earn this from what he did, not because of his activity.

I don't understand why you hate him so much when he never flamed anyone and never disrespected anyone and is a great help to me.

I do believe the problem rise at the issues of where he did his job, but never told us what he did.

For example, he decided to leave hive for quite a while because 'people were being mean to him'. Is that the kind of person who should be the admin of hive? Someone who runs away from problems instead of confronting them directly.

I don't think this as a problem, but more towards avoiding the problem to be worsen or should I say "Let the situation cool off".

And for the record, I went into this debate completely neutral and came out of it on the opposite side of Ghan after hearing what he had to say.

Joining a debate was almost impossible to stay neutral. You would take either side without you noticing it.

 

[Ralle]

He spoke perfectly fine, though he avoided a lot of questions and gave half ass answers.
Not to mention it took him incredibly long to defend him self (which he did in a dodgy way).

For example, he decided to leave hive for quite a while because 'people were being mean to him'. Is that the kind of person who should be the admin of hive? Someone who runs away from problems instead of confronting them directly. And from what I have seen from Ghan, he does a good job at avoiding.

I understand Ghan has been helpful to you and all, but wouldn't be be more fit as an advisor?
Sort of like Samuraid.

This is not a personal attack on Ghan.
I believe he is a nice and intelligent person, but I just don't think he's a good admin for hive.

Maybe. Maybe not.

As you have previously said, people are different in realtime chats. Ghan_04 was probably careful of what he said and I can imagine he felt very hurt at the time as well. He did what he could to be neutral and seriously can you remember all the things you have done the last two years?

I am very happy about Ghan's position as it is right now because I got him where I want him, next to me, to cover for me when I am not here.

I have seen the discussions about Ghan and I would have done the same thing if so many people wanted me to burn in hell. I would simply have killed THW if it was me.

 

[PurplePoot]

Ralle, we do not inherently dislike him ("hate" is a strong word; I wouldn't say I "hate" him. Note that I disagree with Trax's insults and actually called him on it once or twice); why would we? Hell, he was very popular back when he was first promoted, and his popularity steadily declined since. I'll give you a hint; it wasn't a conspiracy.

He tried to speak for himself, sure, and nobody believed him, sure. Why? Because we often had to try several times to even get him to answer the question we were asking (dodging was all too frequent, or random red herrings where he would answer a small part of the question) and in the end we had to grill him to have him be able to name two (just two) significant things he had done after being an administrator for over two years. His "defence" was an excellent example of how to say nothing in many words, and he kept reverting to the same "there are two sides to every story" style quotes every time we pointed out the holes in his arguments. You have the entire log; feel free to post it.

Now, as for addressing specific quotes.

Neither him, nor I understand why so many people dislike him.

We keep trying to tell you. I haven't exactly hid the fact that I have disliked Ghan for a while, and have raised it with both you and him for the better part of a year (I stopped recently due to not really caring any more, last night's discussion was just a random occurrence which started with Trax noticing that Ghan's icon was restored).

An admin who does very little and seems to get in the way as much as they help is not a good thing. You knew very well that he was inactive back in the day, but you kept putting off demoting him until you could say "Aha! Look! He posted!" and keep his position with some semblance of your decision making any sense from an objective standpoint.

I believe this was responded to in the chat. Basically it's because I wanted to build a system for hosted projects and then it kind of stalled.

This is not the case. The initiative to revamp hosted projects was suggested by me and pushed by me after I asked if I could take over management of hosted projects because Ghan had closed them several months earlier and then let them rot. Feel free to dig up the old ML threads suggesting these ideas as well as my thread about finding new hosted projects, if you can still find them (yeah, search is pretty bad so it might be hard).

I originally got the idea from seeing D3W's site after approaching them about becoming a hosted project and being very impressed by what they had done and wondering why we didn't have such a system in place for our projects.

I listen to Ghan but I don't take orders from Ghan. I wanted the drama about Ghan to stop so I took a stand/stance?.

Ralle, as I said elsewhere you often are led too easily; often, when I would make suggestions, you would instantly agree with them without discussion nor asking the rest of the staff, and as a result I had to tone down my suggestions later on. Hell, I even warned you and Ghan that something like that would happen if Ghan didn't change some things such as his user title, which (intentional or not) made him come across as arrogant and could be seen as a slap in the face to some other staff members. hvo wasn't even being particularly offensive; he pointed out something that I had said and that several moderators were thinking, and yet he got demoted for it to set an example.

You address this point later on in the wall of quotes, so for reference that's what I mean.

This is why I demoted myself the second time. I didn't want to cause a shitstorm, but I couldn't run a section if you guys were going to demote people who helped run it for making accurate statements that you had been warned would probably be made due to the nature of some of Ghan's then recent decisions.

This is because I deal with this stupid forum system in a very specific way and I have shown to Ghan_04 how I do so, and not yet to Hakeem.

Hence part of why people get frustrated with him in such a position; with you busy, they're forced to go through him, which is usually around as effective as talking to a brick wall due to how inactive he manages to be.

I don't recall any of this.

There was a thread in which his inactivity was brought up and people were commenting on just how long it had been since he had done anything. I can't remember the context since there were several such threads and if I remember correctly it was one of those long threads that have the habit of wandering all over the place in the ML.

Activity to you sounds like a PR thing. You have to show people and tell people what you go about and do. He doesn't.

(I cut this quote down since it was extremely long, but this is the main bit I want to address, and the rest was related anyways)

Yes and no. Activity is a PR thing in the sense that, as I have said before and I will say again, if you have to tell people you're active enough then you aren't. Nobody has had a problem with Samuraid because he's specifically the tech guy and he seems to do a good job (we only have your word, but obviously you have no interest in lying so there's no reason not to believe you). Ghan takes the "tech guy" front according to you and him, but is constantly given administrative duties that involve moderators or the site as a whole, and this is where inactivity on the public front comes in to play.

By posting, organizing events, communicating with moderators, etc, you let it be known that you are active; you don't have to be active for the sake of being active. Nobody goes around saying "Guess what, I'm active!", but people have a pretty good idea of who's active because they post, respond, etc. As I also said to Ghan before, if you are only reading threads but not contributing, you might as well be inactive because you aren't actually doing anything to help the staff/community/etc.

Nobody is going to ban you, even if you don't speak the truth.

I realize. I was addressing someone (I think it was General_Anon) asking whether I should be talking negatively about an administrator.

No. Because they were most fit for the positions.

I seem to recall an activity chart being posted with them being the most active in the preceding weeks and some comments about this; perhaps it was merely speculation.

I don't recall that.

hvo situation, addressed above.

As I see it, those of you who hate him are primarily people who just want somebody to hate which is not welcome here.

Not at all. I have no interest in disliking people; in fact, I alienate some people by disliking them or their friends. I dislike people because I feel that they deserve it, as I have addressed in the chat and here. I am, however, very vocal about my opinions, always have been, and think that more people should be.

I don't understand why you hate him so much when he never flamed anyone and never disrespected anyone and is a great help to me.

I don't dislike people who are disrespectful in the same sense; they can be ignored, banned, or whatever. As should be obvious if you read my full rant, my talk with Ghan, and my replies here, I dislike him because I feel he was a detriment to the staff both image-wise and functionally.

I don't take orders from him and he doesn't come running shouting "Ralle do something".

If you can think of a better way to explain the hvo debacle than that, I'm game. You don't take orders per se, but as we have both agreed on you are often too quick to agree with someone, which results in essentially the same outcome.

I probably missed some points but they will probably surface during this thread's life.

Yeah, you missed a bunch but since we seem to be trying to address why I (and possibly Trax/Devine, but if they are only going to throw insults that won't go over well) dislike Ghan I think a sample of the issues I see should be sufficient.

However, I think you should read the back-and-forth between Ghan and I and see whether you can see what I was saying about him basically backing up our points in his speech. Hell, for example, TriggerHappy didn't have much experience with Ghan beforehand, but agreed with my position on Ghan afterwards, not because he had been able to look back in time and see every small event but because he was able to see Ghan's attempt to respond to my questions and that they were clearly less-than-adequate while attempting to sound like he was the poor, poor victim and everyone else was out to get him. At one or two points I had to bring up the same point several times to even get him to acknowledge it, since it was a hard question which he had no good response to, and when he finally did have a response it basically went against the rest of what he had said.

--

Oh, also, on top of all this, his fake demotion was totally dishonest and now he's apparently attempted to rewrite history by saying he never really resigned when back in the day you were both going on about how he had resigned due to the staff atmosphere etc, and once again in our Q&A session he mentioned the negative atmosphere being the reason for his resignation.

 

[Numerion]

He spoke perfectly fine, though he avoided a lot of questions and gave half ass answers.
Not to mention it took him incredibly long to defend him self (which he did in a dodgy way).

For example, he decided to leave hive for quite a while because 'people were being mean to him'. Is that the kind of person who should be the admin of hive? Someone who runs away from problems instead of confronting them directly. And from what I have seen from Ghan, he does a good job at avoiding. I understand Ghan has been helpful to you and all, but wouldn't be be more fit as an advisor, like Samuraid?

And for the record, I went into this debate completely neutral and came out of it on the opposite side of Ghan after hearing what he had to say.

This is not a personal attack on Ghan and believe he is a nice and intelligent person, but I just don't think he's a good admin for hive.

He is trying to speak wise and don't write stupid things which you would then use as an advantage...

and if he leaves chat when everyone is attacking him? Have you ever been attacked by >10 people in same moment? you can't defend because nobody actually tries to understand what you write , therefor its useless to even try... (admit it, when someone attacks you, you rather ban him instead of arguing with him)

and you propably didn't understand all that he wrote then....

In my opinion , Ralle is one of the best persons around, because he is inteligent (unlike most of us) .

Howgh

 

[PurplePoot]

He wasn't speaking "wise"; he was speaking vapour. The term is rhetoric: The language of a work and its style; words, often highly emotional, used to convince or sway an audience. Really, you give me the impression that you're the kind of person who would consider a politician's words "wise" and not realize they are just very good at convincing people that the sun shines out their ass.

And yes, I do address people when they criticize me, and I have no urge to ban them; in fact, one might say that I am far too slow to use my power in a heated discussion, since I would rather address the aggressor than ban and forget. In addition, we were clearly listening to what he had to say, seeing as our future questions were actually based on what he had previously said. That said, even if I didn't, that point would be completely irrelevant since it is an excellent example of the ad hominem too quoque ("You too") fallacy.

Really, this reverence of admins is disturbing. "The admins are always right, therefore they must be right here too." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why is it that when we disagreed with him we automatically failed to understand what he wrote? Were you there for the conversation, or are you just assuming that Ghan must be right because he's the administrator?

 

[Ralle]

Well. I cannot truly speak for Ghan but I can speak for myself.

It calms me to know that I have an extra set of eyes to monitor the server and site when I am asleep. This extra set of eyes knows exactly how the whole server is set up and how I want the site to be managed. Aside from that, he does what I ask of him and because he knows all this, he can do most of what only I can do.
I can't really remember if he has been inactive but his current position doesn't exactly put him in charge of a single section. He is more in charge of the survival of the site, and the things I ask him to do. I want this person on my staff.

However, perhaps I should teach some things to fellow staff members to easier get to the top with things that need changing.

Ghan did not tell me to demote hvo nor did he suggest it.

I don't want people to be bashing on him. Trax. and Devine -.-

 

[PurplePoot]

Ghan didn't ask you to demote him; he acted as if he had demoted himself, when in reality he just removed the settings that made him look like an administrator to make people think that he had.

If Ghan was just the server guy I doubt anyone would have a problem with him (after all, they don't with Samuraid).

 

[The World Is Flat]

I personally like ghan, and havent seen any idication of any wrongdoing or issues. not that i can contribute to this, because i wasnt around at the time. Personally:

1. Ghan seems nice, truthful, and helpful.
2. it seems he did the best that he could with his duty & responsibility.
3. it seems that the whole argument was a hatefest against ghan, and i dont think inactivity is an excuse for a hate charade.

But i also think ralle overracted a bit. If ghan cant defend himself, then he is the one at fault. but i think he did so truthfully, and trax. and poot and the others couldent accept it.

Thats an outsiders oppinion, as worthless ass it is.

 

[En_Fuego]

I've never had a real problem with Ghan, going back to nearly 5 or so years ago at TheHelper.net and he always seemed kind and willing to help. Maybe over time he's just been worn down and isn't much of a wc3 helper? I don't think it should be his job, seeing as how many dedicated and experienced 'helpers' we have now-a-days.

For community participation...No offense to Ralle, but Ralle isn't as active as I'd imagine a dedicated website owner would be. I understand though that he's busy improving the site and always working to give us a better environment to converse, help, and learn in. Likewise, imagine Ghan doing the same thing. Think of him kind of in the same position as Ralle...if something terrible was going on in the site (like a massive outbreak of pornography) then I'm sure he'd stop it. But at the same time, we have other moderators to pick up on the small things like spam and flaming.

I like to think that someone's always paying attention to the technical side of the Hive and always trying to improve it and always there if something bad happens.

I mean honestly, does anyone really care about flaming or spamming? It happens all the time. And so what if he doesn't post? That's not his job. As long as he's monitoring everything and making sure nothing goes wrong with the site and/or the community I think he's doing his job.

 

[Rui]

[...] somebody said that they'd have to wait 3 weeks for Ghan_04 to respond. I will tell you a fact. The longest time he has been away from THW was 3-4 days. Aside from that he has been active pretty much every day. [...]

The only deduction to make out of this is that he was here and maybe read the request, or maybe not; either way, he did not respond. Otherwise, the person who said this was a lier, which seems to be what you're trying to say.

[PurplePoot] it took him like...
[PurplePoot] Trax., was it two months or what?
[Hakeem] Maybe he's just worried about admins quitting all the time.
[PurplePoot] It was very very fast anyways
[mare] General_Anon, frosty said to Ralle that he is weak and hive will fall if he doesnt get a better hold of it when it keeps getting more & more people at the time he got banned
[PurplePoot] He was made a spell moderator and then got promoted like a month later to a GMod and then a month or two later to an admin
[Trax.] PurplePoot, less i think
[PurplePoot] Not really sure why since he never actually did much
[PurplePoot] =/

It's a thing I keep pointing out and recently did point out in one of the ML threads: we promote people too fast. The result is that the promoted will work for a couple of weeks and then leave.

As I see it, those of you who hate him are primarily people who just want somebody to hate which is not welcome here.

...It's been a while since those times, and my memory isn't very good, but I do remember that the major problem with him was his lack of activity. Like PurplePoot said, it's not about having somebody to hate. I don't like seeing an individual in a position when someone else deserves it and/or could do a better job with it.
The activity sheet might point to him being active, but just now he is AFK in the chat. Therefore, filling little squares in the activity sheet, but not, in fact, active.

Also, if he can't properly give an answer when he's being criticized, how can you consider him fit for a position where he deals with the community?

I'm fine with him being on the staff as long as he fulfills his end of the bargain AND does it well.
Concerning Ghan, he, like PurplePoot said -- and I can back it up because I went through the experience --, helps as much as he gets in the way. Plus, he demoted hvo-busterkomo (come to think about it, I haven't even seen hvo around), caused PurplePoot to demote himself... is it really about «primarily hating Ghan»? Can you ask the staff to like and accept Ghan when he caused such a bad climate?
Sums made, was (is) it worth having Ghan in the staff?

 

[thelifelessone]

An admin who does very little and seems to get in the way as much as they help is not a good thing.

I can tell you from experience that just because the work isn't visible, doesn't mean it hasn't been done (admin logs are a good thing. )

 

[PurplePoot]

Yeah, but for the vast majority of his time as an administrator he's been in a position which involves doing work on the public side, and thus that is really not an excuse. One could argue that "Vice Chieftain" does not imply any public work (it's very vague, although I'd like to think anyone with any staff title should be doing some amount of public work) but his other positions certainly did.

TWIF, it "seems" a lot of things. I'm sure if I turned up my rhetoric I could make you believe that I shat rainbows as long as I worked at it for long enough. However, the reason he left none of us convinced via our Q&A session (and why TH and possibly others actually were convinced that he was, in fact, in the wrong) was because it was basically "how to dodge the question 101". I encourage Ralle to post the logs here if it really matters that much.

 

[Linaze]

Ghan made Poot resign, and Poot is awesome. To me, it's as simple as that.

 

[thelifelessone]

Ghan made Poot resign, and Poot is awesome. To me, it's as simple as that.

I'm fairly sure Ghan didn't make him resign.

 

[Traxamillion]

I'm fairly sure Ghan didn't make him resign.

No, Ghan's posisition made Poot resign.

Also Ralle, before you make me look like a complete asshole please regard the message where I stated.

"I do not hate Ghan as a person, he's just not fit to be part of the staff."

and since he is not fit, I spoke on experiences Ghan himself did. As for the Child remark, what do you expect me to say when the only thing i saw him do in terms of staffing powers was turn the chat into a rainbow pirate dirby.

 

[aaron]

... no response from me :/... ( disregard what i said in chat, i was thinking of someone else xD)

 

[PurgeandFire]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any examples of him actually being "mean" or "unfair"? Everything seems to be just implied so far. :\ It doesn't sound like the Ghan I knew.

 

[PurplePoot]

Nobody used either of those words (well, they used "mean", but the other meaning thereof) in this discussion. Perhaps you misread?

 

[Devine]

Even though I was trolling in the chat and stuff, I do want to see Ghan demoted.

 

[PurgeandFire]

Nobody used either of those words (well, they used "mean", but the other meaning thereof) in this discussion. Perhaps you misread?

Sorry, I didn't pay much mind to my post. ;P

I meant to refer generally to instances (posts/quotes/chats) that made people want:

to see Ghan demoted.

I'm not trying to attack anyone, I'm just genuinely curious. ;P

 

[Zombie]

Not that I wish to jump into the bandwagon, but to my knowledge it was Ghan who deleted Lio's topic from OT, which was to serve no other purpose than entertainment.

Why do we all have to act like we're 46?

 

[Devine]

I'm not trying to attack anyone, I'm just genuinely curious. ;P

Well. Not that his inactivity effects me in any way other than the fact that I see people ranting about it, which I don't really mind, but the fact that he doesn't do anything useful yet has the powers to turn the whole site into a huge SE by changing shit into communist bullshit for the lulz, pisses me off.

So he doesn't do anything useful which should be a good enough reason for him to get demoted, but he also annoys the shit out of me with his talk-like-a-pirate day.
Which, fucking annoying as it is, actually lasts for days. So it gets even more annoying over time.

I don't lack a sense humor. You all know damn well it's not funny.
To anyone that has ever participated in any of these events, shame on you.

 

[Rui]

Oh yeah, the communist joke thing... I didn't enter the website for the rest of the day. Someone's got to explain me why people make fun of communism so much.

 

[Zombie]

Oh yeah, the communist joke thing... I didn't enter the website for the rest of the day. Someone's got to explain me why people make fun of communism so much.

Yes, I too disapprove of making fun of communism. After all, it should be the only righteous political idea we are all meant follow.

 

[aaron]

Yes, I too disapprove of making fun of communism. After all, it should be the only righteous political idea we are all meant follow.

no. and stop going off topic.

 

[Zombie]

no. and stop going off topic.

I'm so sorry, sir. I truly am. Is there any way to find forgiveness in front of your ultimate wisdom? Q_Q

By the way, what's actually the topic we're discussing? It's not like either Ralle or Poot will change his opinion. Ghan will not be demoted nor will anything change.

What's the purpose of this thread?

 

[aaron]

I'm so sorry, sir. I truly am. Is there any way to find forgiveness in front of your ultimate wisdom? Q_Q

By the way, what's actually the topic we're discussing? It's not like either Ralle or Poot will change his opinion. Ghan will not be demoted nor will anything change.

What's the purpose of this thread?

basically ralle defending ghan. :/

 

[PurplePoot]

Not really sure why it was created in the first place, but hopefully it can result in Ralle realizing that I don't dislike Ghan just because.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The actual problem I see is not with any 1 person, it is with the rate of the site development. I realise that new servers and new chatrooms are all very nice and difficult to make, but that is not everything to a site.

In a month SC2 will be released and it is highly likly that a lot of map makers will start using it rather than WC3 as well as there will be 10000s of old WC3 players comming back for SC2. If this site is to establish itself as a major SC2 modding site and not just an aging WC3 site it is important that on the day of release some form of extension is made keeping the previous WC3 support but adding SC2 sections and hosted projects.

At one stage there were plans to expand this site to cover other blizzard games like enhanced WoW support and D2 support (expanded to D3 later). I understand that changes made to site structure may have influenced these ideas but are you going to let them really be scrapped for good?

Ofcourse we can not neglect good old WC3, the focus of this site for the last 6+ years, but it will not last forever sadly and I have a feeling that not everything is being done that could be done.

My final conclusion is in future, instead of going all rage like over members of staff being or not being active creating huge ammounts of talk around the site, I advise saying your mind to the people it can actually affect (in this case purplepoot a PM to ralle might have been the right thing as honestly he is the only one who your words can effect as the rest of the people are no better off than you when it comes to actually doing something about it). Instead we have a lot of hate started, a lot of wasted time from both users and administrators (who could have used the time more constructivle like improving the site) and a lot of text to read.

In the end Ralle has told why Ghan is here, and all this could have been avoided if you would have started an admin contact thread or sent Ralle a PM about it in the first place as in the end his eyes are the only ones who this text actually can do something with. Me reading it, TriggerHappy reading it, Septimus reading it or even people like aaron will make no difference to the end result so why even waste their time with it.

If you have problems with the staff, the admin contact is the right place to make a post, venting in the chatroom is only going to waste everyones time and start stupid stuff like this.

 

[The Dark Wizard]

The Good Doctor is the only one who is at least trying to make bloody sense. Most of you are whining because Ghan was given a power that you feel he does not deserve. You think making a huge deal of it will do any thing? For your information most of the staff here is useless. PEOPLE like ghan have been doing great things for this site BEFORE they were even staff. WHAT CAN YOU say about the current staff? If you were not aware Ghan has server access to the server that houses hiveworkshop.com and he has over his time here helped keep this website up. If it was not for him the times that ralle was not here the site would be down till your webmaster bloody showed up to fix it. Ghan does not need to be active or post in these forums. HE checks them everyday and makes sure that the website is up and running and that it did not explode by it self. And what does he get? All your bullshit. Ghan is one of the best admins you will ever have and i can speak for experience because he has been my system admin for about 3 years now. So before you keep on being an idiot please think about this.

1. If ghan was not around. Would you still have a hiveworkshop to troll on?

2. You all bitch about ghan but seriously is the staff any better? most of them are useless. There are only a handful of staff on this site not including ralle/ghan that are useful. THOSE two work their asses off to keep this place alive.

3. Why do you continue? The one that you have to convince is Ralle and frankly Ralle will never let go of Ghan.

-The Dark Wizard

 

[A_nonymous]

I look at this and I laugh. I LAUGH at the patheticness that I am witnessing, this is sad.

Poot, your a faggot. Thatttsss right. your a giant flaming homo. Know why? You had too big of an E-Peen. Oh noes, Ghan has power and it was too fast, but he's not doing anything wrong! Lets complain and resign and then start up a whole shitload of drama like a 5 year old kid who didn't get there way. Really Poot, thats just sad, you aren't needed on any staff if your going to stir up drama. Those who follow Poot like he's some sort of god, are just as bad. Crying and whining doesn't solve anything, espeically things that aren't wrong.

As for Ghan... Ghan is a very neutral guy. He helps alot of websites really; completely free. He's helped qiute a bit of admins over the years, I'm a bit jealous of his abilities my self. Ghan, as far as I know, is also not the most social of people. He can be a fun guy, but he's a bit qiuet. He works behind the scenes with alot of other websites; not sure why he does this. Out of a need to help others, or just as a sort of hobby.

Regardless, I hope the admistration of this site understands that Drama is the absolute most destructive thing on the internet.

And most importantly... Nothing on the internet should be taken seriously to this scale.

EDIT: Always remeber, if your so butthurt about poot not getting his way and Ghan just doing what Ghan was told to do, theres a BAZILLION other sites out there. You don't have to concentrate your cancer in one place.

 

[Hakeem]

Oh good, the futility argument is being made already.

...Being made too well, in fact.

When I first learned about this thread, I was thinking, "Oh jeez." Awhile later I found out Ralle had made it, and I thought, "Oh boy." Then it came up in chat and I decided to make time to read it.

Reading it now, and writing this post, I think this will prove productive, provided that we're all listening to each other.

This is because I deal with this stupid forum system in a very specific way and I have shown to Ghan_04 how I do so, and not yet to Hakeem.

I'd like to elaborate on this and point out that so long as I can do the simple stuff that's necessary for an admin, I don't want to know how vB works.

He was very popular back when he was first promoted, and his popularity steadily declined since. I'll give you a hint; it wasn't a conspiracy.

Not in the "normal" sense, but these types of things often have a memetic quality to them. Once a few people get to attacking Ghan's competency as an administrator, a bandwagon can build on their words alone. This position has never properly been countered. There was nothing to stop it from growing.

I don't lack a sense humor. You all know damn well it's not funny.

This goes hand-in-hand with my above point. It can enforce my above point even further, and my above point plays on the point I am about to make.

People may often dislike things for the person who does them. If I had access to the chat logs I could probably find people who had a lulzy old time when Ralle was messing with the chat, and then complaining later when Ghan did it. I would be surprised if there wasn't at least one person that dislikes Talk Like a Pirate Day because Ghan was the first person they heard about it from.

---

Now, it has been pointed out that Ghan first pseudo-resigned because of the attitude of the staff. If this is the case, then the attitude of the staff is of critical importance, is it not? If it can get an admin to appear to resign, then it is a pretty big issue. So what is the issue here?

As far as I can figure, the issue here is that a lot of people have "sustainable" complaints against Ghan. By that I mean that the picture they paint is not contradictory to itself. People can hold these positions without being illogical. Worse still, these positions have never properly been confronted.

These complaints against Ghan seem to be mostly attacking his qualification to a moderation position. Nobody is really questioning his technical competency. Nobody is really saying he should not be a server admin. If someone is saying this, they will be swiftly ignored on account of Ralle knowing otherwise.

So, what is this "moderation position" I speak of and what are the qualifications? I consider myself as holding a moderation position. I moderate the forums as well as the users and finally the moderators. I have an administrative moderation position. Ghan unquestionably is qualified for a systems administration role.

The issue, as far as I can tell, is whether or not Ghan can fulfill an administrative moderation position.

Neither him, nor I understand why so many people dislike him.

I think I may be able to illustrate this quite clearly.

You reminded me in the first post here that Ghan was to be Wolverabid's replacement.

Anyone who was here when Wolverabid was an admin should realize that this has profound implications. Ghan's activity has been brought up. This has gone back and forth a little bit, so let me put it this way: Is anyone prepared to say that Ghan has ever been as active as Wolverabid was at his peak?

Looking at it this way, I'm not sure it was possible for Ghan to not end up disliked, given he was Wolverabid's replacement. Moreover, during Ghan's reign, he basically was the acting administrator. Bob and Archian had been/were going inactive and eventually were replaced when the Director system gave Ralle an excuse to promote some "admins." It seems to me that Hive has had a steady influx and outflow of staff. The outflow points to a constant decay in the people that keep some semblance of order on the site. "Hive is dying." Luckily, so far, there have been factors that keep it from falling apart altogether. Since Ghan was basically in the position to do things about this issue, and failed to solve the issue, many people have come to see him as getting in the way of progress that this site needs to regain its composure and become as fun as it once was.

Maybe there never was anything that could be done and we were simply caught in the flow of WC3's gradual decline.

---

Ghan said that the truth lies somewhere in between? Nah. I find that most of the time both parties speak the truth, they're just too busy disagreeing to see it.

I've said quite a bit here, that I don't think has been said or heard before, and if so never seriously considered. I urge anyone who wishes to post further seriously look at what I have said. I urge you to reread my post in full.

This means Ralle, Poot, and Ghan, in particular.

 

[Rui]

[...] Instead we have a lot of hate started, a lot of wasted time from both users and administrators (who could have used the time more constructivle like improving the site) and a lot of text to read. [...]

There is a little problem with this: the people who can actually «use the time more constructively» are not doing it. That's what we're debating here.

[...] If you have problems with the staff, the admin contact is the right place to make a post, venting in the chatroom is only going to waste everyones time and start stupid stuff like this.

Unfortunately, if you take a look at governments, pressure is, unfortunately, what gets things done most of the time. If this thread ever reaches a conclusion, we'll see if it was worth the time or a waste.

[...] You think making a huge deal of it will do any thing? [...]

Making a huge deal of things is the way we got out of the dictatorship. Which is to say – before you argue False Analogy fallacy –, contesting and criticizing gets things done. Some people wanted things done. So they contested and criticized.

[...] PEOPLE like ghan have been doing great things for this site BEFORE they were even staff. (...) If you were not aware Ghan has server access to the server that houses hiveworkshop.com and he has over his time here helped keep this website up. If it was not for him the times that ralle was not here the site would be down till your webmaster bloody showed up to fix it.

Wow. You know much more than I do. How do you know all this? Ghan told you? Or was it Ralle? Neither of them went in such detail concerning Ghan's activities.
But like I said, my memory isn't the best, so please do link to your source if I'm wrong.

Ghan does not need to be active or post in these forums. [...]

If he is supposed to be Ralle's replacement, then yes, he does.

2. You all bitch about ghan but seriously is the staff any better? most of them are useless. There are only a handful of staff on this site not including ralle/ghan that are useful. THOSE two work their asses off to keep this place alive.

So Ralle and Ghan are useful because they keep the website alive? You know, to a certain point, you are right. If they weren't here, who'd need resource moderators?
Saying the rest of the moderators are useless, however, is like saying you could browse the rest of the forums and resource sections, and you'd be swimming in the dirt, but at least the website would be alive.

3. Why do you continue? The one that you have to convince is Ralle and frankly Ralle will never let go of Ghan.

Maybe it was just me, but a lot of people seem to misunderstand that we (or I, at least) are trying to get promoted someone who gets done things that need to be done, not to demote Ghan (unfortunately, my last post could have passed that message). Ghan helps Ralle in the technical part of the website? Very well, let him stay. But calling him Ralle's replacement implies that he has to pay attention to the community as well. Ralle doesn't do it (much), you say? Well, maybe it's because the time he has available does not allow him. It would be to expect that his replacement did it for him, like Wolverabid did.
To answer the quoted statement, I can't get Ralle to let go of Ghan and neither is that my purpose, but maybe I can get Ralle to promote someone who can TRULY compensate for Ralle's activity incapabilities or obstacles.

[...] Not in the "normal" sense, but these types of things often have a memetic quality to them. Once a few people get to attacking Ghan's competency as an administrator, a bandwagon can build on their words alone. This position has never properly been countered. There was nothing to stop it from growing.

PurplePoot said TriggerHappy did not build upon his words, but rather analyzed Ghan's speech and drew his own conclusions. Not everyone performs such a rational methodology, but it proves memetics do not necessarily need to be the cause of this.

[...] These complaints against Ghan seem to be mostly attacking his qualification to a moderation position. Nobody is really questioning his technical competency. Nobody is really saying he should not be a server admin. If someone is saying this, they will be swiftly ignored on account of Ralle knowing otherwise. [...]

One of the causes of this is the title. I did verify that when writing this post.

[...] Looking at it this way, I'm not sure it was possible for Ghan to not end up disliked, given he was Wolverabid's replacement. Moreover, during Ghan's reign, he basically was the acting administrator. Bob and Archian had been/were going inactive and eventually were replaced when the Director system gave Ralle an excuse to promote some "admins." It seems to me that Hive has had a steady influx and outflow of staff. The outflow points to a constant decay in the people that keep some semblance of order on the site. "Hive is dying." Luckily, so far, there have been factors that keep it from falling apart altogether. Since Ghan was basically in the position to do things about this issue, and failed to solve the issue, many people have come to see him as getting in the way of progress that this site needs to regain its composure and become as fun as it once was.

Maybe there never was anything that could be done and we were simply caught in the flow of WC3's gradual decline. [...]

I'm not quite sure this was the problem. But Ghan was certainly unsuccessful at doing things that could have been done to improve the website, these «things» being pointed out by Dr Super Good.

 

[Numerion]

Wow. You know much more than I do. How do you know all this? Ghan told you? Or was it Ralle? Neither of them went in such detail concerning Ghan's activities.
But like I said, my memory isn't the best, so please do link to your source if I'm wrong.

well, Hive isn't the only site on which Ghan is...and on few sites he even speaks with the comunity , because the comunity doesn't hate him as it is here...

 

[Rui]

Numerion, we've been trying to tell the readers of this thread that we don't hate (quoting PurplePoot's words, it's a strong term to use) Ghan, nor do we dislike him for no reason. The only thing people might have felt for him at first was suspicion, and they had all the right to be suspicious.
I was promoted to World Editor Help Zone moderator in 2007 if I'm not wrong. Then to Development moderator in 2008, and finally to director in 2009. It was three years. When I was given the director duties, you all knew me well enough.
But Ghan? He ascended from normal user to administrator in two months, according to what PurplePoot said (I didn't even know he had occupied the Spells moderator position first). On top of that, he was not active in the community. Next to nobody knew him and apparently nobody got to know him. One thing that such silence granted, for sure, was that this was not a second Wolverabid. The only similarity were these robotic posts in the Introductions forum.
Summarizing, Ghan only brought it upon himself. Numerion, if Ghan was active enough in all the other forums, why was it different with The Hive? How come the «community hates him» when me, PurplePoot, TriggerHappy, Trax. and Devine seem to be the only ones contesting anything? We are not the community. We are part of it. And I'm sure that, being an administrator of so many communities, Ghan has been criticized before.
To finalize on that, I only wish to say that, in my school – class, even –, I have people that I don't like and (a lot more) people that don't like me. But I have to face them five days a week for 8 hours a day. You too certainly have people that you dislike as much as they dislike you in your class, school, work place, and you can't run away because of that.

I'm resting my case. I only hope this debate contributes to something.

 

[mrzwach]

People are not specifically annoyed at Ghan because he does nothing, from what I have seen they are annoyed that he does not do what they feel he should do, what an administrative position entails, and thus negatively impacts the site because there is no admin who can consistently deal with these problems.

Anyways, I'll give Ghan the benefit of the doubt and assume that he has been working to help the site, but in the more technical areas. In that case, demoting/replacing Ghan would likely be negative to the site. The best option is probably to promote someone who can manage the forums and take care of the things Ghan is too busy/inactive/whatever to do.

 

[En_Fuego]

well, Hive isn't the only site on which Ghan is...and on few sites he even speaks with the comunity , because the comunity doesn't hate him as it is here...

Actually, no. Looking at his posting logs from the Hiveworkshop and theHelper.net his daily post average is indeed different. The numbers on theHelper.net though appear to be higher for a couple of reasons that I will explain later on in this post.

If you look at his latest posts on both sites, he averages about 1.5 posts per day on the Hive. This is in part because his last posts before the month of June were in Sept. of 09. On theHelper.net, his average posts per day is like 7.6 I think. (this difference does sound pretty bad...)

Now that may sound like a huge difference, but you have to keep in mind that theHelper.net supports more platforms for interaction than the Hive does (they're not limited to WC3). In addition, theHelper.net does not have quite as many esteemed individuals when it comes to specific areas. When you look at any section on the Hiveworkshop you find people who frequently lurk different zones to help people (the best example I can think of is DSG in basically any zone; honestly, if you want a Wolverabid replacement, DSG would be your best choice). On theHelper.net, many of the admins lurk only in the World Editor area, but Ghan on the other hand posts and helps all throughout the forum.

This leads me to my next point, which is theHelper.net has a lot more users posting and asking for help with technical issues. Whether it's computers, internet trouble, website hosting, etc. Just looking at his posts, over 50% of Ghan's posts made up of answering questions about the just how the website works (because no god damn newb on that site can read rules).

In addition to what Rui said (I think it was Rui), the Hiveworkshop doesn't depend on Ghan for survival. We have plenty of competent moderators who work to help people and keep the Hiveworkshop a clean place to learn. Ghan's job isn't to post, it's to be a technical advisor. I can defnitely see how his user title gets in the way. On the other hand, if it weren't for Ghan, theHelper.net would've died out a long time ago.

Just know that Ghan's job isn't to communicate and that his title is mis-leading.

DSG for Wolverabid replacement. woots

 

[PurplePoot]

I'm not going to quote anyone due to how much material is on this page, but rather refer to a couple points brought up:

DSG: I really had no desire for this thread in the first place. Basically Trax noted that Ghan was "once again" an admin, I made some comments, and then someone or other asked something or other (can't remember what exactly) and we got into a rant. From there I figured it was over with, but then Ghan came in, then we had the Q&A, then I figured it was over again, and then Ralle created this thread.

DarkWizard: Sorry, but you haven't been around long enough and/or in the right places to understand my position, and your points are rather... yeah, no (#3 was answered in my reply to DSG). You clearly don't understand the situation, exemplified in points such as when you say he doesn't need to be active on the front end just because he is a server admin as one of his duties.

Hakeem: I agree with your analysis of the situation, and one of the major things brought up is (as you suggest) that Ghan has not and still will not properly address our criticism.

As for TLAPD, I didn't mind it the first day, I minded that it was dragged out several more. As for his other chat exploits, I minded because they made the chat totally unusable. I was not around for anyone else doing so in an obnoxious way (in my recollection) so I was not in the position to criticize them for it.

As for your view of him as a Wolverabid replacement, I have never seen him like that. Rather, the problem I have is that while you can afford to have the occasional less active moderator (since you are expected to have a lot of them), you cannot afford to have an administrator who does not perform their duties. Like you said, I am not (and I assume others are not) saying he should not be a server admin or anything of the like; we're saying he should not be an administrator in the sense of running any public affairs, because he is inadequate (time-wise) at doing so.

Numerion: your argument of not posting here because people dislike him (stop saying hate!) is clearly wrong based on the fact that we are arguing that he is a problem precisely because he doesn't post here a reasonable amount. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will.

 

[Traxamillion]

Dark Wizard, I'm sorry but that was one of dumbest things I've ever heard. I read some of the other points mostly agreeing with Poor and Hakeem.

All in all this thread only furthered our points that Ralle would come to Ghan's rescue and speak for him. There's nothing left to say. We could sit here and babble on why Ghan should be demoted but in truth it comes down to who Ralle likes more, opposed to what would actually benefit the site.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

It's nice to see an organized and civilized shitstorm for once.

I don't have a problem with Ghan_04, no idea what he does and I barely even see him anymore in the chat or anywhere else. I'm confused actually, what was the original argument anyway? That Ghan is inactive?

 

[Traxamillion]

Inactive and unable to perform what is neccessary based on his standing as a staff member.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Ghan is inactive? He is always the first person to reply to admin contact threads. Regardless of how stupid my early admin contact threads were. He also readily deals with situations that you come to him with. I really see no reason to have him demoted.

He seems to always treat members the same regardless of popularity. I really see no other user better fit for the task. He's just a nice guy in general.

I guess he isn't as active as he was before, but lots of talent used every once and a while is better than crappy talent used all the time.

How many of us would like to see Wolverabid deal with a situation once a month? It's not much, but the situation is always handled with expert care.

Of course, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here because I was never a part of the staff, so I'm not aware of everything he does. Just my personal experience with him.

This should have been taken to admin contact. Chat is the wrong place to talk about stuff like this. It just creates drama, and threads like this.

 

[ACdestinydream]

This should have been taken to admin contact. Chat is the wrong place to talk about stuff like this. It just creates drama, and threads like this.

pararaph of the day. Personally i feel that this thread is going way overboard - its going into a personal attack. People are hinting they hate ghan while some say they dont hate ghan but hate his inactiveness. So whats the problem here? Is a user/admin expected to be online so long? I cn guess hes really tired and might even want to quit but ralle asked him to stay. You all will only make him go away more. Imagine being an admin for so long. Many people will quit in 2 months, but he stayed for so long. Although he is getting inactive, it doesnt mean hes getting incapable. So lets all trust Realle for once alright?

 

[Cweener]

Sorry AC, unless I'm mistaken, you (as well, as I) haven't been here long enough to really know Ghan...

 

[PurplePoot]

Ghan is inactive? He is always the first person to reply to admin contact threads. Regardless of how stupid my early admin contact threads were. He also readily deals with situations that you come to him with. I really see no reason to have him demoted.

Inactive doesn't mean not on the site; it means not doing stuff. As we addressed in the chat (it would help if the entire thing was posted, but it isn't, so you guys are getting a very small part of what went on), he does stuff, but not relevant stuff. This sort of goes back to the "being a sysadmin is fine and all, but that doesn't mean you are fulfilling your duties as a community director" style points.

This should have been taken to admin contact. Chat is the wrong place to talk about stuff like this. It just creates drama, and threads like this.

It wasn't meant to be an appeal so much as a few users ranting and/or asking questions. I assumed it would be left at that, but then Ghan came out of his cave and replied to some stuff, we replied to him, I again assumed it would be left at that, and then Ralle started this thread the next day.

Also, posting it in AC would accomplish absolutely nothing, as we all know very well (not that this will do anything other than raise awareness, but still).

 

[ACdestinydream]

i know you all know more of being an admin than me, so you all should know ghan's feelings.

 

[PurplePoot]

What is that even supposed to mean?

 

[Cweener]

@AC..., huh?

@rest of posters....just get back to debating...this is interesting...