Europe: The Art of War

[Miss_Foxy]

Oh, okay

 

[Gallin]

Okay I have not read the whole thread so bear with me if this has been suggested before but......

I think one large pitfall of all of these types of maps is that there is no real disadvantage to having a standing army far away from your empire fighting in foreign lands. Sure you can tax for having an army but that doesn't really affect it in the big picture.

Along with no consequences of having a large standing army there are no consequences of taking your time to position your army as you see fit. Take for example the battle of Thermopylae. This would never happen in any Warcraft 3 strategy game. Why? Because there is no real consequence of moving your men into boats and by passing the path all together or simply taking a minute or so detour around a mountain or such.

Now that I have pointed out problems I think I should perhaps also point out a few solutions that I think would work.

First one is supplies. Troops need food weapons clothing and armor to continue fighting. So one needs to bring supplies to fight in distant lands. This would force people to fight both quickly and effectivly else they run the risk of having their armies starve before their eyes.

The second option is having units serve for limited amount of times. Soldiers don't only fight for a living. Some have family back home. Some need to till the soil of their fields. So maybe in the winter when they dont have anything to do around the farm they enlist the army for something to do but come summer they realize they got to help the farm and desert. This would also press the need for quick victories and would allow defenders a slight advantage over invaders. You could perhaps add options for a professional army which would cost more than the volunteer army. Would eliminate the fear of losing your army come planting time. You could also add a patriotic bounces if your empire is condensed. Also a war cry that eliminates this deserting if the enemy attacks one of you cities.

Finally the third option (and in my view the worst) just drastically slowing down movement speed of the units. This would allow more strategy but would probly make the game really boring.


Well there is my two cents take it or leave it. If you want me to clarify anything let me know.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Hmm... By dramatically slowing, do you mean a 100% slow or like a 90% ++?

 

[A.specter]

Erm...how about, like, you control your buying price and not reveal it to others, then people can invest? E.g.

Player 1: Grain = 1000gold metal = 500gold.
Player 2: Grain = 500gold metal = 1000gold.

Player 3 can buy grain from player 2 and sell it to player 1, therefore making a profit.

Also, you must check their market for price changes, there won't be a graph or whatever to keep track. You must do it yourself. using a unit. The price will not be shown, however, there will be a 'check price' ability that check the price. It needs a messenger pigeon that will fly off and return.

 

[SasuhKun]

Didn't you already suggested that? Lol.

About Gallin, there will be something like that for ships already. It is indeed a good idea, but infortunaly it may be more annoying than actual nice and strategic for its realism. If Goffterdom does a system that is not annoying though, it could work out very nicely.

That, if it weren't more one serious issue.

By the way, cities are somewhat close. Just standing near them should be able to provide shelter and food, right? At least allies's. So you just camp near one, and then attack! And when you get a town, you get more food...

So unless you make a goddamn crusade and don't capture any city or do not pass by any ally city, then yes, could work. But in the AoW's scale, that does not work at all.

And about the family back home thing? Did you think the rulers at that Age cared for their families? Don't you already know about their ruthlessness? I mean, even today american soldiers had to serve in Iraq for one damn year... Imagine back then, when there was no democracy, no justice, no rights.

 

[A.specter]

Why not there be some system that will make your people rebel in some situations? E.g. Overcrowding, lack of transport, etc.

 

[Tleno]

Nobody would rebel for lack of transport or overcrowding, though people might start revolting when infulanced by other nations a lot, or when taxes are unbearable...

 

[Nightblade]

When a city is captured,the player who loses his city gets x amount of revoltees depending on his pp.He can use them to fight the opponents army.

 

[SasuhKun]

Why would anyone care to reconquer your city when it is too late?

There should just be emergencial troops (Town Guards) that protect the city with the Garrison.

(Also, 999th post! DOOM APPROACHES)

 

[Gallin]

Didn't you already suggested that? Lol.

About Gallin, there will be something like that for ships already. It is indeed a good idea, but infortunaly it may be more annoying than actual nice and strategic for its realism. If Goffterdom does a system that is not annoying though, it could work out very nicely.

That, if it weren't more one serious issue.

By the way, cities are somewhat close. Just standing near them should be able to provide shelter and food, right? At least allies's. So you just camp near one, and then attack! And when you get a town, you get more food...

So unless you make a goddamn crusade and don't capture any city or do not pass by any ally city, then yes, could work. But in the AoW's scale, that does
not work at all.

And about the family back home thing? Did you think the rulers at that Age
cared for their families? Don't you already know about their ruthlessness? I
mean, even today american soldiers had to serve in Iraq for one damn year...
Imagine back then, when there was no democracy, no justice, no
rights.

Well how about having troops outside your city serverly limits the amount of money it produces perhaps even costs the owner. Could give a reason for vassalage. Instead of your money it is theirs. Also cities you have just conquered should not give you a large amount of supplies. Another way to get supplies could be with a forage ability but this would decrease the friendliness of an area toward you and should reduce the amount of money nearby cities generate.

 

[Goldendemon]

Sounds really nice!
Could you show some Screenshots?

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Yeah, it's awesome, screenshots would be nice too

 

[SasuhKun]

Gallin, cities you have just conquered already have... Ah, how can I explain.

Mana=Population.

1g income for each mana.

Population increase and decreases by a ton of reasons, one of them being constantly reconquered. And we already have upkeep. I think it was 1/10 per cost of the unit, per turn.

Also, Goffterdom have screenshots... But really OLD ones. So.

 

[Goffterdom]

Meeh screenshots of what ?

The terrain ? That's all I got =D
It needs to be reworked, I asked for a terrainer on the "Project Recruitment" section.
Attachments:
Minimap
Overview
Spain
Hungary
Turkey
Russia


Now concerning what you all said:
• Sorry Sasuke but I dont like much your idea for trade (chance of event, long journey and so on...). I think there will be taxes to sell your goods but only if the buying player researched a certain tech.

• Concerning Popularity I dont think there will be building that increases population growth. But there will be events that can decrease this growth rate. But what events ? (For now I can only think to "number of units died nearby the town during the month"). There will also be researches to increase the growth rate.

• Concerning creeps and neutral towns, I hope I will be able to make a more developped systems with creeps that actually attack players and repop and their city hasnt been taken.

• About the emissary, Sasuke you pretty much understand how I was gonna do it. Asking for a submitting or a vassaling will cost PP. I also think being under the effect of a vassaling or a submitting will decrease your PP (and PP will be needed to revolt).

• About multiboard I hope I will try to create a multiboard per player.

• About Vassaling / Submitting and benefices: You are right, it needs to very useful or else players will just kill each other instead of using my wonderful diplomacy system. The gold reward is enough imho but if you have other ideas (other than unique unit, I dont like this idea) feel free !

• The Power is a fucking brillant idea. I'm really pissed off because it gave me a wonderful and original name but I didnt notice it and I can't fucking recall it. So I think I'm just gonna suicide.

• About your armies being far away. I can see the problem but not the solution. My PP system will decrease the control you have on town far away from your capital but not from your army. A problem I will have is that if you're fighting far away from your town and taking a city. This city can revolt whereas your whole army is nearby. I gotta work on it but I'm afraid the solution won't be simple and my trigger skills are not so good. The supplying solution you suggested is interesting but hard to implement since mana is going to be used for moral.

• Concerning battlefield, detour and usefulness of position. I will try to make a system that give units bonuses depending on terrain type they are on (forest = more defense, less movement speed, sand = less ranged damage, slower movement speed, snow = slower movement speed and so on...).

• About the revolts I may add a "Propaganda" ability to the capital (or spy or emissary) that can target any city. It would increases the degree of control needed for the targeted city. When you capture a city the farer it is from your capital the most difficult it is to control it (high degree of control needed). Maybe I will add a "Call to Arms" ability to every city, it would cost PP and summons some militia mens. Also remember there will be Garrison nearby towns that will be able to train troops (probably Conscripts and Militiamen). I also know I will implement a system that makes recently taken towns cost income (or at least dont generate any kind of resources).

• And yes there will be a upkeep system for your military units.

Sounds really nice!
Could you show some Screenshots?

Thanks

EDIT: Some REP added, thanks all of you !

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Hmm... What's the maximum mana set?

 

[Goffterdom]

For what ? And also no numbers are not final for now, it is just a general idea of how it will be.

 

[Gallin]

Well perhaps you could add inventory to each unit and in their inventory add supplies. Every so often the units lose one charge of the supplies and would function similar to mana

 

[Goffterdom]

Hard to make it balanced and not annoying for such a map. I have to consider it but I think it would be too restrictive for players.

 

[Gallin]

But isnt half the battle staying supplied? Isnt that what won the Americans their independence?

 

[S.Darkblade.W.O.VS]

The Power

Europe: the power of the lords?

Thanks

You know that thing below those buildings, why don't you remove them?

 

[Goffterdom]

What things ? Ground textures ? I dont think I will.

"Power of the Lords" sounds like all map names.

"The Power" sounds really original but not show the gameplay enough. Europe: Art of War may keep its name.

 

[Gallin]

Why does Europe have to be in the title?

 

[Goffterdom]

Because it's a strategy map based on Medieval Europe. Having a realistic Europe Map is an aspect that attracts people imho, so it is needed to figure in the map title. At least I think it does.

Why ? Don't you think it's relevant ?

 

[Gallin]

Well the fact is that the map is of Europe so telling somebody is kinda redundant if they have ever seen a map or globe. The important part of the map is the game play not the location. The fact tht it is Europe is not what is going to draw people it's the gameplay that will. So you need a title that reflects gameplay and if you add Europe to the title it cluters it up. Needs to be short and sweet and appealing enough to get the gamer t try it out

 

[S.Darkblade.W.O.VS]

Well the fact is that the map is of Europe so telling somebody is kinda redundant if they have ever seen a map or globe. The important part of the map is the game play not the location. The fact tht it is Europe is not what is going to draw people it's the gameplay that will. So you need a title that reflects gameplay and if you add Europe to the title it cluters it up. Needs to be short and sweet and appealing enough to get the gamer t try it out

Not really, short titles are not for this map.

 

[Nightblade]

Well the fact is that the map is of Europe so telling somebody is kinda redundant if they have ever seen a map or globe. The important part of the map is the game play not the location. The fact tht it is Europe is not what is going to draw people it's the gameplay that will. So you need a title that reflects gameplay and if you add Europe to the title it cluters it up. Needs to be short and sweet and appealing enough to get the gamer t try it out

Nah,I dont agree.People have to know what the game is based on.'Europe' draws many people since they know what to expect and people tend to like real-world strategy maps.(Wc3 only lives on because of dota)

 

[Goffterdom]

.(Wc3 only lives on because of dota)

That is so false

 

[Nightblade]

That is so false

Its true,like it or not.I hate DotA too.

Now,Back on topic.

Is a release date planned?

 

[Goffterdom]

How can you say I'm wrong when I know I'm not xD
I'm playing Risk Next Gen for two years and there is a 22.000 players community...
I'm playing Risk Devolution for two months and there are several active clans, I participate to turnaments, team games...
Sasuke also said he was playing LoE and other strategy maps.
All the TDs, but mainly Legion TD with a community over 5.000 players...

I don't hate DotA, it is just silly to say Wc3 is alive thanks to DotA. It's an insult towards all good map makers >.>

There is no release date, I didnt even finished brainstorming. There's a progressing summery on the first page.

 

[Reaper51]

I have a question, how would you start the game off - in the first minute of gameplay?

 

[Goffterdom]

Hmm, it is always a problem.

What I thought:

Cinematic mode
-> Welcome text + sounds, maybe some generic tips on the map for newbies (but something quick don't worry !), a tips on me and where to help me (here !)
-> Camera swap to Nation Selection Region (I think I will do something like the AoS for the Nation Selection, like the two unique units + one hero of the nation nearby a circle of power. Even if it's not an original system at least it is new for that kind of maps)
Cinematic Off
-> Players choose their civilization
-> Swap camera to starting location (as soon as they choose their nations)
-> Game paused until everyone choose (or x seconds of waiting)
-> Game Start, initializing Sound (probably the well-known Horn of Cenarius =D)

Btw is some of you have some idea for sounds / other fancy stuff to add on the map (like background music too) feel free to suggest.

 

[SasuhKun]

How did you not see my "Power" opinion? And it tells quite a bit of the game, because of the Political Power resource. It is very innovative after all, and the title could reflect just that... Besides the other power references of course. It is not "War Power", it is just "Power". You win Power the way you want to... I still love Charge though. For the reasons previously stated, and I think that they're also good to relate to the game contents.

(Also, the first time I played Lords of Europe I was attracted by the Europe thing. So, yeah. I think it should have Europe on the name as well, although some titles may not be so good with the name Europe. Europe: Charge/Power sounds good for me though, dunno about you.)

I had a EXCELLENT idea about the music, but forgot about it. Anyway, first thing, independent of the music you choose, is decreasing its size, preferrably without draining quality. I've HEARD of a program that may do the job, but I'm not sure if it actually works, since I've never tested myself. Imtoo Audio Decoder, I think it was it's name. If it is not actually good, I'm sure WhereTheWolf (I always miss his right name) our newest music moderator, can give us a help on a good program. Helpfully as he is though, he would propably just compose a song and give it to us light-weighted already! Hehe.

For the music itself, I have four ideas...

First, check our music contents. They might actually have a fitting music, although I'm not sure. We have 2 completed contests, and one happening right now.

Second, get music from KoH, cause... It is a really fitting music, good for the ambient we're slowly creating. And a ton of other reasons, as well. And the music is good, of course.

Third, getting a modern music. Although it may sounds silly, there are some custom maps that actually mesh quite good with modern music, and the immersion is actually greater than having the standard age music. A excellent example would be To The Bitter End, and, of course, Power of the Horde. I mean, whoever never used the cheat to play it on single player on a epic campaign chapter or something?

Fourth, asking someone to do the music. Maybe asking WhereTheWolf himself.

Fifth, the epic idea that vanished. So, yeah.

Ah yes, the idea for start is really well. And Cenarius' Horn won't ever get old.

Maybe some sounds for some abilities. Maybe the heroes's ultimates trigger a war cry, or maybe whenever a town is conquered, or emissary's abilities as well! Well, whenever epic things happen, there should be a cool sound. My opinion

I just though of something that would be quite nice too. Imagine playing ETaOW with 300's music on background. It is like... Epic for a entire lifetime. I mean, 300's background music is just... They've should received a prize for it. I mean, the HELL. Yeah, DINE IN HELL. Ahn, you got it. It is just nostalgic.

Edit: (If you actually plan to take 300's music as background, which I just love, I recommend getting Boroz's final version of his map of 300, and try to get it from there. I don't know if it is possible, because I'm not used to the World Editor, but I think it is. He gets parts from Returns a King and Fever Dream.)

 

[Gallin]

I think you should include Ireland for no reason other than I am Irish

 

[SasuhKun]

It's a shame Ireland is too damn small.

 

[Reaper51]

Include Romania (ie Wallachia, Transylvania, and Moldavia) cuz they fought countless wars vs the turks

http://www.ministryofart.se/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/europe-1600.jpg

 

[Gallin]

All the better it could add a challenge to be a smaller country. A perfect opportunity to make an economic empire

 

[Reaper51]

that is actually a good idea, small countrys might fare better teaming up with bigger ones and providing them with wealth and resources

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Ireland sounds nice, the Ireland conflict is also good.

 

[Nightblade]

Looked at the features once again.Im using many similar features for my map too..(terrain bonus and vassal).

You want the vassal option to be more attractive?Grant the overlord the unique unit and a tech which he normally would not have had.(For example,vassaling england increases the speed of your boats and allows you to train weakened longbowmen.)

Oh,and do away with the ship system.Too much hassle.

 

[SasuhKun]

First, you can't make a economic empire with 1 city. You just can't, it is impossible. That's the main problem with Denmark and Romania as well: The solution to Denmark, however, is that they often captured Norway (Norway and Finland were constantly traded in wars, as well as other terrains, between Denmark and Sweeden.) So they could a stat that allows early transport and offensive boats for controlling the sea early, as well as attacking coastal cities, mainly Norway and Sweeden, but able to attack England and France as well. They're also connected to the mainland. Or at least are so close that you don't really need a boat to get it to the other side, just make a way gate. Romania and Ireland, however, are in a much worse situation. Romania is too close to Greece, and the only way Romania can be implemented is Greece getting out. That's the only option there is. Ireland, however, is just impossible. On Lords of Europe, that had a LOT more cities than ETAoW (Goffterdom wanted to lower the ammount of cities) Ireland had one. On Knights of Honor, it had 3 provinces. It is just undoable. Besides, imagine someone that picks England and someone else pick Ireland. Ireland had no naval power, not comparable to England at least. Also, England often "incorporated" Ireland along with the Highlands... As would propably happen if Ireland would be chosen. It would just piss off England. It is somewhat close to Kievan Russia and Moskva Russia. But, like... Kievan is all the way around Moskva.

And I actually liked a lot the Ship System. Makes sea combat more interesting in my opinion. It could incorporate some more things though.

Also, Goffterdom, a very important note. It does not matter how much we brainstorm, if we create tons of incredible systems and all that and just implement all at once on a 1.0 version. I think that while you search for people to make the most complicated triggers and make a better terrain, you should proceed on doing a very basic version, some like alpha version and anything. Just to HAVE some physical progress you know? Make it like a LoE: Only the new terrain, the new units, the nations, its stats, and if possible the heroes. Also, no complicated systems (such as mana for the cities, the supply system for the ships, and morale... Unless you REALLY want to incorporate those in the alpha version.), except for the heroes, if possible. Besides, it will get more support, fans and suggestions if we already have a physical map. Although I remember something to do with alpha versions and Hive rules... If anything, just post the alpha version in the 1st page. Besides, in my opinion, having a base ready when we figure out all the systems will be better than having all figured out and only then begin working. You would find that finishing everything would be too exhausting, and maybe even drop off again. Do you know what I mean? The terrain can really be polished later, that's not a major problem. The lack of a triggerer is not bad as well, since we would have no complex systems at the beginning.

I think it is better to start it, you know? If you actually agree to my idea, you tell us exactly what you need to make a alpha version and we shall provide you it. Be it more lacking unique units or techs, or whatever. Trust me, it will be a lot better than starting from pratically 0% and implement tons of units, techs, systems and shit.

(Did anyone read my suggestions about music?)

 

[fattythefat]

Denmark is on the mainland?

 

[Reaper51]

yes an alpha is indeed what you need to sort ideas out, to see what works and what doesn't

imo each of my maps that i released or are about to be released were remade 2-3 times because of quality assurance

also i won't cry if Romania isn't in this because their best time period was after the 1500s

 

[SasuhKun]

Yes, I think Denmark is slightly connected to the mainland, only slightly though. I don't really remember.

Just checked a map, it is connected. It is a bit larger than Turkey's/Byzantine's connection to Europe. Also, I just forgot, Greece has been deleted, while Byzantine is the empire in that region. Actually, on very early Medieval Ages, Byzantine was quite the power. They fell after the Crusades though. And Goffterdom specified that there are no colonies at all, so the peak age is XV century. Meaning no Romania at least.

Gallin, if you give Goffterdom a good example that at some time in the specified Ages Ireland was actually important, despite it's incredible small size, he may add it. Although I REALLY doubt it is going to happen. But oh well.

Did anyone read my music post? .-.

Also, Goffterdom, you need to replace this thread's Nation tab by the Idea Thread's one, with the unique units suggested by Trillium.

 

[Reaper51]

Romania still existed, under different states and rulers.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Yes, Romania should be inside.

 

[Nightblade]

Sasuhkun,I think there should atleast me a mode where you can choose whether to have ship system or no..there are some people like me who dont continuously want to resupply thier ships.

 

[Goffterdom]

Ok so...
Ireland and Romania wont be implemented. It is a room and gameplay priority that takes the upper hand on historical background. It's silly but that's it, there's not much I can do about it except redo a Europe Terrain on a 512*512 map size (what I wont do).

@Sasuke: YEAH WE HEARD ABOUT YOUR MUSIC COMMENTS. Stop worrying so much As I already told you, I read every posts but I dont comment them all, I keep everything I find interesting in a small corner of my brain.

About the beta version: I'm not used to produce a map without all the systems I wanted, it's not the way I work. Especially when I havent finished brainstorming.
I may try to release a pre-beta version but before I need to know how my resources / trade will be managed or else pre-beta will be too different from alpha. Anyway, don't expect it to happen soon, I'm really busy IRL and I have really not much time to efficienly map make.

About ship supply system: I wont get rid of it. Your ships will have to stay nearby your shipyards (as in real life) or else they will die. You don't need to "continuously ressuply them" since it's an automatical system.

 

[Nightblade]

I recommended the middle option,having a mode.But its your map after all.But atleast make a large 'supply ship' with a limit(2?) which supplies all the ships?

 

[Goffterdom]

Oh.

That's a bloody brillant idea XD

Didn't even think about it.

EDIT: I can't +rep you neither >.<

 

[SasuhKun]

What about Denmark? D: