Europe: The Art of War

[Reaper51]

Hey i love mapping for historical rtsess, here's my map: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/maps-564/age-war-v8-9-beta-172888/
I think it has some of the things you want like custom attack/armor types, wall/towers/gates(that work), naval combat, etc
You should check it out, be weary that this is my first map ever released and i have gotten much better since then.

 

[SasuhKun]

Ah, Reaper.

You may not remember me, but I sure do remember you.

I was the voice actor of Warcraft IV in SC2 which got no job at all and since then was "dismissed." I think I gave you guys 2 wips.

So yeah. I tested that map of yours... Or maybe it is some other map. I remember the map I played you with and Grey (and someone else) was a remake of Age of Empires 2 on WC3. Good map, but I got pwned hard by you guys.

 

[Reaper51]

oh yeah i remember now, btw i'm not on the team anymore since the last breakdown a few months ago
right now im just freelancing my own maps

 

[SasuhKun]

Well, welcome to the brainstorming team!

I don't remember if I showed you Lords of Europe.

Either way, it is on mapgnome.org.

The last original version is 3.0

Thing is, this map is based on it, which is also from Goffterdom. What really happened is that we suddenly had so many nice ideas for the next version that Goffterdom decided to remake it into a whole new map: new terrain, new city scheme... Well, new everything. But Lords of Europe gives you a taste of what's coming. I also assume you've read the 1st page?

 

[Reaper51]

yes you showed me the map, and yes i played it before i knew you
you can clearly see that some things in my map were subconsciously stolen from loe (battle chances +15% crit strike, +15% evade, in ur map the % is 10

so what period of time does your map take place in exactly?

 

[Chizume]

May I ask if you actually have done anything yet? Or is it still in the planning & concept stage?

 

[Reaper51]

most likely concept since they terrained on a whole new map

 

[Chizume]

I'm all excited over this map. Let me know if I can do something to help in its development.

 

[SasuhKun]

You mean, one game? LoE ranged from one hour to two (a short, or a dragged game.)

So am I Chizume, so am I. I wish we could spread the news to the LoE fans out there. Well, I did to the ones I knew. Either way, we got over 37% of the map ready in (taking out the time Goffterdom did not work at all) halfly one year of brainstorming and actual work. Since the brainstorming part (except for triggering) is ending at least for the very first version of the map, I'd say that until June it will be ready, if Goffterdom can work at it everyday. And if he finds the crew that he needs as well.

By the way, Goff, you should update the 1st page with the total progress bar (those calculations you made that in total was 37% roughly) and the people that you need the finish the map (I remember only your request of a good terrainer, to polish your terrain after you finish with Europe's geography.) Also, about that, remember Harashu? He did a pretty good work adding more naval territory that you did not add (lots of isles that you forgot adding), so don't forget to add those. It makes the game much more interesting for Sweeden and England, for example, instead of just "Omg, strech out to Russia NOW/Omg, rush France NOW" respectively.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

I could help with triggers when I'm free

 

[SasuhKun]

We just gotta know from Goffterdom. So, Goff: Which people do you need to complete the map aside from a good terrainer to polish Europe?

 

[Reaper51]

yeah i would love to help out when i'm free
ok so where are guys at right now?

 

[SasuhKun]

Progress? Goffterdom had a progress bar somewhere...

Terrain was the most developed one, he needs only to finish it himself, and then someone polish it.

Then, a low ammount of work was done on units and triggers, and in percentage units > triggers.

In total, it was 37% roughly. He have the exact bar, so we'll have to wait for his answer.

 

[Goffterdom]

Hi over here.
Dont worry guys, I'm reading everything. I have been quite busy this last couple of days but I'm still in a working mood.

I updated a few the first page, adding some of the old informations about the nations. But I think I will have to reconsider every bonuses since there might be new systems.

A terrainer also contacted me for the Europe terrain and we will likely start working soon.

@Foxy: I'd be really glad you help me with triggers, it will probably be the hardest part for me since I'm not so pro and I'm only handling GUI. Most of the systems are doable for me but I think they would be smoother if someone with more skills helps me.

After all, keep throwing ideas, even if I dont comment, everything I read is influencing me and helping me.

 

[SasuhKun]

Woot! So you got a triggerer, a terrainer, and a brainstorming team! There could be anything else you could need? Hehe.

Well, let me brainstorm some more them. Maybe I can think on more cool things.

(By the way, don't forget my idea of units with "practical" uses!)

Also, weren't plans for two special units? On the 1st page there are listed only one... Maybe you need help brainstorming the others?

Edit: I don't know if you guys know about this, but I read a comic named SatW (Scandinava and the World) and as you've guessed, they talk a lot about those nordic countries.
One of the most remarkbly things is that Sweeden and Denmark (they're actually characters in the comic, as well as others nations) constantly fight... In both comic and history. AND they also hold the record for the nations that most fought between themselfs (Yes, a LOT more than between England and France. There a shit ton of things people don't know about Scandinavia... Though they don't know as much of us, either. Well, at least not the obvious nations, such as USA. Well, going forward...) Finland and Norway (MAINLY Norway... As well as pieces of them, such as only an island or two, like Svalbard, which is from Norway; or Aland, which is from Sweeden.) are constantly "traded" when one lost a war to another... So it is more historically correct to use Denmark instead of Norway, if it is possible. If you need more info on that, I'll try to help as I can. I also know a lot about Crusades! Well, a lot about many things. Still.

 

[Reaper51]

what do you mean by "practical" uses?

edit: i don't think there might be enough models for 2 special units, i had 2 special units in my map but some where just model with a slightly different tint : /

edit: unit practical uses probably means that the unit counters what its supposed to counter, like many rtses today, they use the Rock/Paper/Scissors model rock beats scissors but a sufficient amount of scissors can overwhelm rock

 

[SasuhKun]

Actually not... Although that is a good though of how counters could work.

I mean going beyond planning just types of armor and weapon. Like "Ah, he's using cavalry, so I'll just spam lance units." I mean like actually use your units for specific purposes... Like Genghis Khan did a lot. For instance, there is a unit named Warrior in LoE. They're cheaper and more spammable (since they only hold 1 food, as opposed to cavalry, which uses up two food), have a great attack, rivaling those of the cavalry itself, but its armor and health sucks. Although I always forget to test it, Warriors could easily be used as tactical units, since they have the "Rage" skill. While a platoon "tanks" or distract an army, another entire platoon made of Warriors could just use Rage, rush in and pack a punch. Until the enemy can see through the ruse, his army is already dead. Infortunaly, that's the only practical unit on LoE... Besides Crusader, perhaps.

Well, my point is that Goffterdom add more units that if wisely used could turn the tide of battle, even if in pure theory they wouldn't work quite well, because of things such as armor and health. It goes beyond of a unit with great damage and "Rage" skill of course. I've suggested a Assassin of some sorts quite a time ago that could use "Hide" or something and when they break from it, the next attack have a bonus damage. Basically hide behind some trees while the army passes by, and then just AMBUSH. I could think of some others units. Arsonists that cast a small tile of great damaging fire, that could even trap a army, and let the archers take care of the rest. Some kind of berserk cavalry, with huge evasion, small or no collision at all, and with splash attack, that could just shred through the ranks, or just pass through to quickly wipe out the archers. The possibilities are many... And the more I think of them, the more excited I get when I think how awesome it would be if they were implemented.

I think that it is possible to have two special units for each nation. Hive's database is huge, and if it is not enough, which I doubt, there are some others Warcraft websites, which even if they are not as good as The Hive, could provide fitting models that we do not have.

 

[Reaper51]

hmm i think cavalry should do trample damage to nearby units

edit: for my map i did go through a lot of trouble to get all those models and i did go to places i wouldn't dare say...
all for just completing 11 civilizations with 2 unique units each

 

[SasuhKun]

Well, depending on what units we'll use, we'll already have 22 models... If both you and Goffterdom are willing to. So just more 12 to find.

Oh, I though of that too. Like some kind of immolation each 3 seconds or such.

 

[Reaper51]

that's what i used, permanent immolation with no model

what 12 models do you need?

 

[SasuhKun]

Don't ask me, ask Goffterdom. Well, you can see the some of the special units on the 1st post. The others we're still brainstorming... Or Goffterdom is yet to reveal them.

 

[Goffterdom]

12 models ? You wanted to say 24 didnt you ?
You guessed right, the problem is the lack of models. But it's also the lack of knowledge, I dont know what to add as second units for nations.
Remember that I also need units and buildings models for south nations.

I think that it is possible to have two special units for each nation

A unique unit = a unique unit concept (to avoid just better versions of regular units), a unique model, unique stats.

Concerning practical uses I dont know if I understood everything.
As far as I know I will have one ability for almost every unit (for instance knights will be able to charge). So I think it will add one more use for all units.

Woot! So you got a triggerer, a terrainer, and a brainstorming team!

It's not over yet ! I dont have an official triggerer, Foxy proposed his help but maybe he won't be able to, I will need to be sure I have a partner. And concerning the terrainer I'm still waiting to see what he's able to do and what are his motivations.

"Ah, he's using cavalry, so I'll just spam lance units."

I am encouraging this kind of behaviour, it is what a general would do.
"General, the enemy has taken his position over the hill"
"Hmm, what are his formations ?"
"Three cavalry regiments and one bowman pack"
"I see. Let's use our pikemen, they will stand against the knights".

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Hmm... Will there be some upgrades for units who are weak against each other to be erm... 'Less Weak'?

 

[Goffterdom]

I dont understand what your asking.

 

[Reaper51]

Miss_Foxy probably means that say swordsmen vs swordsmen usually come out in a draw unless say you research improved shields which slightly buffs them to always win a 10v10 battle with no micro.

 

[Goffterdom]

Oh, yeah of course there will be a lot of improves/upgrades/researches available to increase the efficience of nearby everything (from soldiers to defense capabilities, also trade or naval warfare, resources or income and so on...).

 

[Reaper51]

guys i read over your first page again and i found some mistakes:

These informations can be outdated. > This information can ...

Free Times: Not enough > Free Time (there's no such things as "times")
Opportunity to Work: Less than one hour a day to map make on weeks, free times on week-ends (Same thing as above)

each city has his own real name > each city has it's own real name
income automatically generated every “rounds” or “months” > “round” or “month”
E:tAoW will also features epic land battles and navy warfare > E:tAoW will also feature epic land battles and naval warfare

Most likely English isn't your first language so these things tend to happen, I'm just pointing it out cuz i knows engrish for 10 years since i was a FOB : D

 

[Goffterdom]

Thanks a lot guy, I'm going to edit this the sooner possible.

And you guessed right, english is not my first language, I'm French so I have very poor skills

EDIT: Btw It's still "my" first page
I havent hired anyone in the project for now.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

That's great to hear then, good luck on the project

 

[Goffterdom]

Thanks a lot !

Foxy if you can contact me when you're free to help me with triggers, I'd be glad.

Map description updated.

 

[Nightblade]

Unique unit for russia - cossack

Have you ever played Rise of Nations?In there there is a 'Conquer the world' campaign called 'Napoleon' which is only europe.The idea im suggesting is having 'colonies'.It works like this:

• Each nation sends an expedition to some land.
• Nations have to spend gold to determine the strength of the expedition.
• Expedetions take up pop space
• You get 'resources' from colonies.
• Colonies can be exchanged from player to player

 

[Goffterdom]

If I remember well I created a thread in "Idea Factory" to have ideas on unique units. And they told me to remove cossak... I have to read it again (to find it first). Thanks for the idea

About Colonies, it's been several times people are speaking about it. E:tAoW takes place in the middle-ages. I wont implement it, even in the last age.

 

[Reaper51]

you should add more info to map contents

 

[Goffterdom]

Map Contents = almost 0% done, what figures in "Click to Read" is just to remember me what I have to speak about.

EDIT: Added Warfare to the map description

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Almost 0% done?

 

[Goffterdom]

Well before I add "Warfare" section the map contents were empty

I need to show you what I came up with, in order to know how good it is.

RESOURCES
GOLD
Towns -> They have mana which represents inhabitants (/1500 minor cities, /2200 medium cities, /3000 major cities, /4000 capital-cities).
Taxes -> Each Month you recieve 1 gold for 1 inhabitant (so prices will be higher in Etaow to fit with the huge amount of gold you will have to spend).
Natural Growth -> Each Month new inhabitants born, increasing population.
Upgrades -> There will be upgrades to increases max population and natural growth.
War Casualties -> Represented by an item hold by the town. Each time a unit dies nearby the town it adds one charge to the item. When the town is captured by a player every charges are removed but a number of inhabitants corresponding to the number of charges are leaving.

Here it becomes harder... I need your help.

Popularity -> It's suppose to be a factor that says if the population is growing or decreasing, dont know what should it be based on.
Revolts -> It's suppose to be based on popularity of the town and the overall influence of your empire, don't know how to handle this.

RAW MATERIALS (instead of wood)
Here's come another problem, if I create resources structure to build it's illogical to build an "Iron Mine" or a "Lumber Mill" nearby your town, so I dont know how to do.
These buildings would create 1 item every x second, item that be automatically sold into RAW MATERIALS or used for trade.

Other questions that stuck me:
. What should the overall influence be based on ? (Gold Income, Raw Materials Income, Total military, Researches, number of total inhabitants...)
. Other ideas on how to implement the resource system ? I'm completly lost.

IM F*CKING STUCKED HELP ME XD

 

[Miss_Foxy]

You spelt Resources wrongly

 

[Goffterdom]

Rofl !
In French it's spelled "Ressources" or else we would pronounce "Rezources" >.<

EDIT:

For my problem of raw materials and illogical building placement:
Wood: A trigger that calculate the distance between the woodmill and the forest, if it's too far it disable building ?
Iron: Randomly spawned "Iron Mines" on the map and you have to build a structure nearby ?

What other Raw Materials can I use ?
Coal ? It's too early in the timeline...

And for the trade system I can also add other structures that produce manufactured goods that can be automatically exchanged for gold/materials or used for trading. Building that would be built nearby the town without any problem of nonesense. But what can they be ?

EDIT: Again, I'm fucking lost between gameplay, logic sense, doable (Can i do such a system ?) and so on...

 

[Nightblade]

Base popularity on taxes.

Can you explain the influence system?I didnt understand much from the first page.

Why cant trade empire build units?.They will have resources,so nations will want to invade them.

EDIT:And how can you not add Germany?

 

[Goffterdom]

Germany = Holy Roman Empire

Trade Empires can train units, but if they focus on economy it's logical they have less army than Empires based on Conquests, so they will probably need help...

Popularity: I wanted it to be based on different elements or only one but that makes sense. Taxes are fine, I wanted to use them (+ or - taxe) but I'm afraid this is "too much" for players to handle. And it would also effect a lot of other systems in the game, leading to an over complicated system to brainstorm for me. But maybe I'll finally use them.

Can you explain the influence system?I didnt understand much from the first page.

Because I didnt explain it.
Nothing is set atm but the influence system is needed to slow the expand of the players and to make more realistic the fact that it is hard to handle an Empire instead of just few towns.

Ok I'm definitively going to edit the first page right now.

EDIT: I'm not sure I like the name anymore. I'm borred of so generic names. GLORY OF WAR, GLORY OF NATIONS, EVE OF WAR, EVE OF CIVILIZATION, DAWN OF... and so on. If someone can provide me a unique name, I'd go take a plane ticket and kiss him IRL. Thanks by advance

 

[Tleno]

I as Lithuanian have no idea what's Huskarl? Can you like tell me what exactly that might be? I mean maybe it has some different English and Lithuanian names, that's why I don't know it?
Anyway this projects seems great and I hope to see it relseased...

 

[Goffterdom]

I investigated to find back my idea thread:

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...s-europe-unique-unit-ideas-152834/index2.html

I also investigated about Huskarls and you are right, it's not Polish at all, it comes from Scandinavia / Denmark.

 

[Tleno]

Oh those, yes, those are Polish and have nothing in common wiht Lithuania... but oh well, doubt Lithuanians have some special unit you could use...

 

[Chizume]

In Swedish Huskarl would, with an exact literary translation, mean House-man. The better translation for English use would be Housecarl though.

I'd say a popularity/happiness/terror system would be important. A happy and loyal population or scared and disciplined one would add interesting aspects to the gameplay.

 

[Reaper51]

you should have a tax system that affects popularity, like in stronghold

for raw materials you can have capturable buildings like farms, mines, mills, etc that produce raw materials at a steady rate

there is no overall influence resource, except probably gold which can improve just about everything

 

[Goffterdom]

for raw materials you can have capturable buildings like farms, mines, mills

Sasuhkun already gave an idea of that style, I dont like the idea of having buildings all around the map... I'll see.

About the tax system that's exactly the game where I took the idea ^^ (even if a lot of dudes probably already used it for Wc3 maps).

 

[Reaper51]

no i didn't see it in a wc3 map yet

 

[Miss_Foxy]

It's in development still, if I'm not wrong.

 

[Goffterdom]

I meant that the resources system and taxes system have been used in a lot of other maps.

 

[Reaper51]

um not really

your idea is pretty original for wc3