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Europe: The Art of War

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No, that shouldn't be centralized either. A nation can definitely keep fighting without centralized power - think Russian Civil War. The reds were fighting the whites, foreigners and everyone was declaring independence. Despite not having centralized control, they won. So I really think that though it would make sense to have SOME significant penalty, like having towns far away that don't like you declare independence faster for a bit, you shouldn't take away an entire facet of the game, even temporarily, just because you lost a capital.

Also, I recommend letting the player designate his own capital. For three thousand gold, elevate town x to capital and make y a normal city. And while we're on that note, make buildings movable. During WWII, the Soviets packed up entire factories and moved them further away from the front so the Germans couldn't get at them and so they could be used. Something similar can be implemented - for half the cost of the building, you can pack it up into an item, and a mule or your hero can carry it around (you can make it reduce carrying unit's speed) and deploy it where needed. Maybe 50% of normal build time to construct it.

And to make that worthwhile, make buildings cost significantly more than units; it makes sense. Constructing a second barracks shouldn't be an alternative to training three knights, doubling unit output ability should be a real investment.
 
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Well, real-life armies are also going to be in the hundreds of thousands and millions, not two hundred. The game is scaled more than thousandfold. So it would still make sense. I mean, you can put a caravan unit in if you want, but it's easier to just make a mule unit.
 
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I used the wrong word. Well, ahn... if you're "leaderless" then, you can still pick a fight, but you wouldn't be so organized anymore, and so you wouldn't be able to buy defensive fortifications. And picking your own capital looks like a good idea. After all, we're writing history. Though people would propably still pick their original capital for many reasons (if you expand somewhat, your capital would still in the center of your empire, which is good so that your military workers reach any place in the same time.) Unless you like doing like those guys from the LSI clan. Which took an idea from sc: Capital Rush! lol
 
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... again, just like small countries can buy fortifications, I don't see why 'centerless' large ones can't. It makes no sense. Does making a simple wall suddenly become impossible because a building died?
 
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Yes. Really, though, you shouldn't emphasize massing fortifications. There are enough castle builder games out there, and never did a wall hold back an army while archers shot from the other side.
 
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Lords of Europe is one of the best strategy games out there using the wc3 engine.The only thing that bothers me about it is the lack of my country - Bulgaria, which once, during medieval age, was one on the strongest and largest countries in Europe and counter-part of the Byzantine Empire.
Please, check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria, read the history part, and add the country to the game in the next version. Bulgarians are horsemen, so their special unit should be cavalry.
Another thing, again connected to Bulgaria, is that on today's Bulgarian territory in-game there are no towns. Even in today's Albanian territory there is 1 town, but on Bulgarian - 0.
 
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Bulgaria, even powerful, was kind of small, wasn't it? Meaning there really are few towns... and Goffterdom removed a lot of countries, so don't know if he could add one more. Only he can answer (I wish he could revive this, as he does not gives feedback to us a loooong time.)
 
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I hope this map is still in development. I personally enjoyed many good hour(s) long games of Lords of Europe and I hope they continue the grand strategy diplomacy tradition in Art of War.

There are a few things I hope this new version addresses through.

- Economy, too reliant on conquest and holding cities. Perhaps an alternative? Like building/upgrading trade markets buildings? Controlling strategic cities (like a capital) rather than a lot of cities? I hope the economy gets a heavy reworking because it adds a layer that Lords of Europe definitely lacked, an economic focus. Far too often players just built armies and blitzkrieg the map. Which, while fun, does not provide adequate enjoyment for players who prefer alternative strategies to war and roleplaying.

-Naval warfare is virtually nonexistent and compose mainly of massing frigates. Perhaps a better rock/paper/scissors system of warships and warship classes can be enacted?

- More national identity to each country. Not really necessary but a nice touch. More specific units or tech trees for each country? Say England can build shipyards much cheaper and get an alternative starting ship other than the merc frigate?

I hope you're working diligently on this map because I look forward to it.
 
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Hello everyone.

Well unfortunately I'm not map making anymore.

Maybe I'll map EtAoW again but for now I'm just working on small and idiots maps for me and my friends.

I also have another problem concerning map making. I would like to make a 100% medieval map (with Economy, Trade, Wars, Naval warfare, Siege, Alliance, Betrays, Army Moral, Strategic points and so on...). But I dont want to make another Europe map THEN the medieval map. So maybe I will just mapmake the medieval map.

I'm sorry everyone, I wish I could tell you something nicer... If I map again EtAoW I'll tell you on this topic.

Thanks for your support anyway, and dont worry, any ideas at any moment is still useful, thanks Peonus ;-)
 
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Peonus, before you posted, the old first post said a lot of things that you would propably like.

Naval warfare would yes be improved, and there are less nations, but they are more unique. They would have 2 special units instead of one, and for example something very similar that what you said: some "stats" unique to each nation. I do not remember very well, but England DID have a stat in which the ports are more cheaper, and the ships had +50 hp and the bowmen more range. Spain for example had a expansion upgrade (3/5 only health down instead of 1/4, something like that) and their cavalry had a little bonus. France had a better bonus on cavalry. Byzantine's and Italy's religion units were slightly better. I also remember Russia having a income upgrade (starts with a higher income.)

Your idea of making a more complex idea of economy is really great, I never even though on that. Of course, it can't be like that system that you build something and it gives income. You could just build infinite of those things... well, it does not make much sense. Since I never though on that, I'm not thinking at any good ideas of how to develop economy further. If you could help it would be great :)
 
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Hi Hivers.
I just spoke about EtAoW to another map maker yesterday and it made me wants to open the map again.

What I discover deeply hurted me. There is still so much to do !

I asked some people to help me, a solid mapmaker for the triggers (and all the systems I'm not sure I can do on my own) and I created a thread to find a terrainer to improve the map.

Since I'm waiting for them to answer me, the project may or may not be open again.

I considered your posts and what I wanted to do and I think I will implement the moral system into EtAoW. I'd also like to improve the economy aspect (as peonus suggested). I need to work on the basical ideas for trade but it is a bit hard to imagine a system supported by Wc3 that would be in the same time realistic and gameplay adapted.

I'll post the ideas I came up with...

I also need to review the first post.
 
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Well I need ideas on how to increase the importance of the economy in EtAoW.

For now the only way to earn money is to control more cities than the other players. I'd like to add a trade system that allows small powers to be as rich as big ones.

I think all the players will be "ally" at start, not shared vision but only not attacked at sight. Then every nation will be able to start up a trade partnering with some other nation.

I need to visualize the trade system, I dont have a fucking clue on how I will implement it.

Help me ? :p
 
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Well, the trade system is supposed to be another source of gold, savyy? Also, people it would be something that require your total investment, meaning you either was a peaceful nation, or a small nation thriving for resources and then begin conquering.

Man, that's hard. I'll edit if I think about anything that might work.

Edit: Brainstorming... The gold won by territory is by any means taxes from the people who live there. And that's obvious not the other source of gold. In that age, people were in Feudal Ages/Beginning of the Renaissance Age. Only on the very end we have colonization, so it is not a very viable option. At that time, the main source really is taxes, which explains a lot of war in that Age. Crusades, The War of Two Hundred years between England and France, etc. Later at that time, the Queen quite some changes, one of them monopolizing the english wool for themselfs, and another investing on its industry. England now would win money by selling their wool to their own burgeois, which would begin produce cloth and other things in mass and export them. However we need something at the very beginning... Before the Feudal Ages, so they have something besides conquering from since the beginning. But what? Roman Empire... Persian Empire... All of them, focused on War.

Oh man, this is harder than I imagined.

Edit: I can imagine three things. One would be farming. Perhaps something similar to Greece: some territory is always dedicated to farming. A upgrade on Feudal Ages (since they focused on that) would increase the productivity of farming. Still, that's not enough.

Which lead us to our second idea: Resources. That's a really brand idea, really. And the way the games I saw are implemented I didn't like much how it worked. Except one. The idea is that you could control those and do a myriad of things with them: export them right away, use them to do more advanced material and them export that material, or when selling to your own industry you would win less gold, but the income would raise a bit (since you invested in industry).

Which lead us to the third idea: Trading. Classic Age of Empire 2 trading. The only thing worth mentioning since we all know it quite well, is that if it should be linked with the second idea (Exporting) or a independent thing.

Now, then, why would a "intelligent" just not do both?
Answer: Farms are quite expensive, and are only really effective after Feudal's age upgrade. (Although they starting giving some money already.) Infortunaly, the resources part does require a bit more of terrain. However, if you know to well use your resources, you can do a lot of gold by yourself. Also, should selling your resources to your industry increase your income on a fixed value or on a percentage value?

About the resources, consider giving a peek on this map: Lords of Middle Earth

Perhaps, around each city (and a greater space if it is a capital) there is some kind of special terrain. You build your industries there (the ones used to manage your resources. Only one type per city, meaning if you build more you can have more and faster productivity... which is only useful if you have more of that base resource. You also build your farms there, and special defenses. Meaning again it is a choice between war and investment! The most powerful towers are those which uses one of that space, and also some kind of militia (a building with a skill to spawn several soldiers. And also be able to buy instant units there.)

Should a enemy country be able to intercept a caravan and sack it?

As you can see, at least on my point of view, it all fits really well. Russia had a huge territory, but a very... brand one. He didn't fill it with a lots of things, but still had a big population, meaning big taxes. Basicly what happens in LoE today. Then, we have... Pretty much, any feudal nation. At the feudal ages there were a LOT of nations, but they still had a lot of money because of their farming productivity. And battling each other, of course, but still handle themselfs because of farms, mainly. England's the perfect example for the 2nd idea. Well, I believe anyone knows why. If anything, just read above's Brainstorming. The third idea was really just a something else. Based on Reinassance Age, as the commerce begins to flow on Europe once more, and we discover colonies and begin to make calculations for economy, investments, etc. Pretty linked with the 2nd idea, actually. This part however can be improved.

Could be enough, as it is, in my opinion. Also, a litte tip on the 2nd idea: would GET the resources the Debei's way (resuming: like a city). OR each city comes with certain base products. Just one but with high availability, another city has two products with lower availability, whatever you decide. MANAGE or DESENVOLVE the LoME's way (too complicated to resume, but something like Castle Fight, but with items that represents resources, instead of units.) and EXPORT the AoE 2's way (obviously.).

A perhaps addiotional thing could also be... Improvements. You reach a goal, and win a bonus for that. Specialty: 6 industries desenvolving the same manufactured product. Win a extra source of that base product (or perhaps 20% bonus percentage of each source) and a bonus to income. Also: Diversity. Producing 6 different manufactured products. Win an extra by exporting and bonus to income. And missions, which would be so rewarding that could be a source themselfs. For example... Colonization. First step, building a great naval compound. Having lots of shipyards and ships. Second, technology. Have a quantity or perhaps percentage of total upgrades in-game. Third, having realized a economic improvement before. And finally, fourth: investing on the "colonization" itself (could be some kind of upgrade.) A colony would be a better import. Instead of for example selling to your own industry for 50% and win 10% of the total value of the item as income, you would sell for 100% and win 20% as income. The very first nation could get a little bonus (110%, 25%) and there is a number limit of colonies (4 perhaps).

That's just a example of course.

Hope you guys like it.
 
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savyy = ?

Trade Income must be an alternative way to earn money. It would be possible to handle an empire with 75% of income coming from trade. So yeah, it needs a real work.

I also think about the ally system. I think it will use an "Emissary" unit. It has an ability called "White Flag" that makes every nearby units (enemy or ally) invulnerable. Then your emissary has several other abilities among different diplomatical status you can have. One of them will be "Submit". Once a nation is submitted the player can't revolt until his military power is above the military power of the mother nation. So that you can win a game by submitting everyone to your own will.
 
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First thing I gotta ask a question. Is it bad to have a new city conquer system ? I ran some tests with a building called "Garrison" that you have to build nearby a town in order to conquer it. It will have something to do with the Influence System but I still dont know how.

I'm definitely against adding resources building all over the map.

TRADE SYSTEM

  • PROCESS

Trade is achieved by Trade Caravans or Merchant Ships. It works like the trade system in AoE II: the unit automatically goes to the Trade Counter you created a trade route with and goes back to your own Trade Counter. It works the same way with shipyards.​

  • BUILDINGS

A building is necessary to trade with other nations: Trade Counter . You can build one Trade Counter per major trade city you own (it will be noticed in the city description) plus one for each shipyard built nearby a major coastal trade city.
On land the Trade Counter works like a market in AoE II: you can train Trade Caravans and ordered them to start trading with other ally / trade partner.
On sea it works a bit differently. You can build Merchant Ships only when a Trade Counter is built nearby the shipyard. Then it works the same way, trade is automatically done.
The Trade Counter can only have on partner (it means every caravans or ships spawned from the counter will follow the same trade route). Opening a route is really expansive.​

  • GOODS

Each nation has two or three different Products. Each of them is different from the other in two ways: the Cost and the Availability. Available Products are shown by an item in the inventory of the Trade Counter. Each x seconds (x changes for every Products) a new charge is added to the item, showing how much amount of this good you have.
Each Trade Counter can sell only one type of Product at once. Each time a caravan come back to the counter, it will loads every charges of this product.
Different nations can have the same types of Products to sell.
When a caravan sell an item it just stocks in the counter inventory, it will be sold at the end of the turn.​

  • INCOME

Each time a Trade Caravan loads Products at your counter, you earn money depending on how much charges were stacked, how much expansive is the good and how far is the partner counter. Sold Products are just stocked in the counter inventory.
At the end of the turn, every purchased Products are sold. The selling cost is based on the basic price of the good plus the distance between the two counters and then divided by a certain integer. So that, you earn more money from exporting than importing.
In that case, gold is represented by an item behold by the caravan. If you kill the caravan the gold is dropped and you can steal it. Goods are also lootable and can be sold afterward without a caravan. The caravan behold more gold on the way back (after it have sold the Products). The Gold item disappear when the Caravan purchases new goods.​

  • IMPROVES

In order to give Trade a bigger importance into the economic life of EtAoW I think it is better to have some improvements that don’t need gold or wood but that require other things.
The maximum number of Trade Caravans a player can own at the same time will depends on how many trades the player already accomplished. At start all players can have up to 3 caravans in the same time. Then if a player makes at least 20 trades he can have another one (and then something like 50, 90, 150).
The more you deal with a player the more it is profitable for your economy. If you dealt for at least x gold (x = 4.000, 8.000, 13.000, 20.000, 30.000) it reduces sell and purchase prices. For instance at level one (you sold over 4000 gold in Products to your partner) every goods can be purchased for only 90% of the total cost, in the same time the player that is importing your resources sells them at 110% of the cost.
The more you sell a Product, the faster it will be available again. After having sold for more than x charges (x = 10, 20, 30, 45, 65, 90, 120) the cooldown time for having new charges will be decrease (if a good needs 20 seconds to be created it will only takes 18 seconds at level one for instance).
There will be other improvements that will need gold or wood such as Taxes (gives gold when importing a good), Currency (decrease goods’ prices over purchasing).​

Finally over, it took me at least two hours to finish this...
Of course all what is said works the same way for the caravans and the ships.

Feel free to comment and to suggest new ideas. Especially concerning the possible improves for trading.

I also need to know if you think the Trade System has enough importance to be an alternative to controlling a lot of towns. Or if it's not, how to make it even more important.

Thanks in advance for your answers
 
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First, about your Trade System.

I think it is too automatic and cheap to actually be a source of gold. Besides, it is dependent on the territory. You just get a major trade city, build the Trade Counter, its caravans/ships and voila! Increased income. At least that's how I understood it.

Goffterdom, you didn't even comment my huge post. I didn't like Debei's idea for resources too, but it was what I though could be the only way to get resources for this scale of map. However, I (actually you, you inspired me) already gave me another idea for that, which is a lot better than what I said before. However, since you didn't even comment at my post I edited it so that my idea is there, and you'll have to read it again to understand. If you read the examples, you'll also see that what I wrote is realistic AND effective! Come on, you didn't even give me a chance! (Don't forget to check LoME.)

Also, you already told us of your Garrison plans quite some times. I think it is an OK idea, I would have to play the game to see how good that idea would be.
 
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Sasuke, sorry.
I think you didnt get what I did.

I read your post, mixxed it up with my owns idea and voilà !
I didnt comment because I was already using your post as one of my reference.

Gonna check it again anyway.

And I'm going to think about what you said "too automatical" and so on...

EDIT: And about LoME I didnt play it (I was at work) but I actually read the whole description and the saw the screenshots. I'm not sure such a system fits with EtAoW. But I'm not sure since I didnt play it.
 
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Actually I think it looks very good. Nice disposition of the description too, I dare add. Just see to it that trade caravans and merchant ships can be attacked and/or protected. That would be quite awesome.
 
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Of course they can be, you can loot merchandises and/or gold stacked on the caravans.

And concerning Resource Exchanging (the regular way to do it is via "F11" - "Alliance Pannel"). I thought about it and wonder what if I use the trade caravan to make it more realistic ? You can't send resources via F11 but only by giving caravans some gold item to drop on your ally capital. The caravan will still be killable but wont enter in the max caravan you can have.

@Sasuke: I wanted to edit but I'm gonna post it here:
I didnt answer about the farming thing because I dont like the idea neither.
Imagine the map covered (or at least few zones) by farms. Whereas one unit uses the room of half or quarter of a farm (size speaking, displayed at screen). It's not realistic. Building are already very small, what about a bloody farm.
And not to speak about visual pain it causes, it is also lame to just spam farms in order to have some income. Actually I dont like the idea of buildings that produce income.

I still have to re-think about the trade system I made and all the implications.

EDIT: Thanks Chizume, the presentation catch your attention, considering the time I wasted on it I can say I'm glad xD

EDIT2: @Sasuke: To make it short. I dont like the idea of having to build a certain amount of buildings in order to have income. It spams the map with useless things when we need room for epic battlefields and legendary turtles. Neither do I like the idea of a certain type of terrain. I dont want to make a Trade System too complicated and dependant to other systems. I want it to be totally separated from the other ways to earn income.

EDIT3:
I think it is too automatic and cheap to actually be a source of gold.
Cheap ? I didnt even plan how much gold a Trade Counter will cost. What about Trade Routes ? I said it was going to be expansive. Automatical ? Yeah of course, but you won't earn that much money. I need to write it all but I want to do a Trade System where you actually have to pay attention to or else it wont be efficient. Maybe make a list for each nation on what product they will pay the more for and so on... So that you have to take care of where you create your route and with whom. And then focus on one type of product to get it faster or all in the same time to make sure your market is producing every type of products.

EDIT4: What you said is annoying me, it keeps repeating me in my brain "UR SYSTEM WILL JUST HELP THE BIG POWERS TO GET EVEN MORE GOLD". So...
Maybe create two Researches available at Second Age (maybe Ages will be managed another way too).
Military Training (making all the first level battle units available) / Trade Routes (allow the building of "Trade Counters")
The first you research is free, the second has a very expansive cost.

What about that ?
 
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Your dilemma is too simple for you to see it. Whenever there is income there is upkeep. Why do you go to work? Large factions do have many resources of income yes, only to keep up with the upkeep (Note the funny use of words there lol). Make things cost upkeep in one way or another and after that it's just a question of balancing.
 
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How can I explain...

Ok, about the 1st idea.

Imagine that there is blight (or some kind of it, with other appearance of course) so that only some buildings could be constructed there. All that kind of "blight" is around every city, and the area is bigger around capitals and such. You find a custom terrain with the appearance of a plantation (no need to be that actually generic farm building, could just be a terrain, like AoE2 was.) to be the Farm. And besides, you just don't build farms there. As I said, it requires strategy. You would build the Industries (or Trade Counters) there, and better defences for the city there as well. Border cities would focus on building those defenses, while inner cities would focus more on farms and industries. So you don't "spam" income producing buildings all over the place. They can't really be "spammable". Just check the screenshot.

Second idea...

Each City would have one or two raw materials to be directly exported (could be just exported and automatically sold or REALLY exported and give it to an ally that want to manufacture that product). Those raw materials also have cost and availability. They can be further manufactured by their type of Industry, so they cost more and so be more lucrative. You could also give them further uses somehow. For example, if someone exports iron, they could be traded for a weapon in the shop for one of the four heroes (that's it, if you plan to keep that system.)

Although you understand it better if you already played Castle Fight or Lords of Middle Earth, here's a "quote" from LoME's description:

= Growing
To grow your village, you first have to produce raw materials (like grain/wood/grape...) that you will sell (by dropping the item or sending the animal) in the three big trade places : Pelargir in Gondor, the Havens of Umbar in Umbar and Amrûn in Khand. You can also buy these goods at these places.

Raw Materials
When you choose a village (a place on the map) at the beginning, you also choose specific raw materials, according the climate, the landscape etc...
To produce a new resource, you hav to "upgrade" a circle of power and then will be created 1 item of X every Y seconds (or an animal).
Then you can upgrade this production site (each time you reach a new level) what will reduce the time to produce one good. This time can also be decreased by researching updates.
Raw materials you can produce :
-Since level 1 : Grape, Grain, Sheeps, Wood/Rock (that is directly added to your stock (100 Wood/Rock per unit).
-Since level 2 : Horses, Iron Ore.
-Since level 3 : Silk.

Workshops
They can be built since level 3 and permit to turn your raw materials into manufactured goods. The workshops need an amount of raw material for each manufactured good or will just not be created.

Manufactured Goods
-Since level 3 : Bread, Wine, Weapons, Supplies and Milk (that is a bit different).
-Since level 4 : Silk Fabric.


So, each time you produce a manufactured item, you take some charges from the closer city that have that material, and you either sell it directly to your own Industries to increase income, export for maximum instant benefit, or keep it to use them somehow.

Third idea... Pretty much your idea. Not much about it.

Fourth idea: The Improvements/Missions idea? Well, you can modify them if you want to, but I don't see how they are abusive by the "big powers". Besides, (the missions at least) requires a huge ammount of resources and focusing... Meaning that if anything happens between the beginning and the ending of your missions, you're pretty much fucked up. You must either do it slowly (and other empires have the chance of doing it a lot faster and surpass you.) Or focus completely on it, but be vulnerable. It is pretty much like the leet upgrade: people usually only research it when they are in a particular, momentary, and sufficient peace to safely get it, or when they think that getting it will save them. Same applies to the former Age Research (since you used to lose your Age if you lost your Capital)

The example I gave would require both investments in both military and economic fields: Have a fleet of both merchant and military ships, have manufactured products and a ammount of technology, and buy a very expensive upgrade named "Expand Horizons" or something. Between that, anything can happen. Besides, if you make a spy unit, a nation could discover those secret plans and attack that Nation while it is vulnerable.

Then it is a race of time between the two, as one thrives to complete the search (they wouldn't abandon the whole thing after so much money spent) while defending with their few military units, while the other strikes before they have a colony and turn the tables completely.

Any doubts?

Edit: Also, a suggestion. First I thought it for Harashu's LoE, but since you're going to do for ETaoW.

Some kind of unit like Warrior. He is vulnerable, but very strong. Like his LoE counterpart, his only protection is against the most powerful weapon in-game (in LoE case, blunt.)
With his Rage, he's quite good for hit n run, or flanks.

What I mean with this, is to make units that goes beyond attack types and armor types, but their practical use. Although everytime I remember it I forget it when I play LoE, no one uses Warrior because of his HP. But if used correctly, he packs a punch.

I would just LOVE to plan a battle more than just build counter-units.

(That's also why I suggested that assassin unit that can use hide and just AMBUSH everyone. Hihi.)

By the way, you still have the unique stats and special units for each Nation safe and sound, right? You removed it from the description, so I assumed you're saved it somewhere.

Edit: And why do you need a terrainer if yours is almost complete?
 

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Hmm... you catched my attention.

I have to think about what you said, it looks like a complicated system for newbies but it also sounds like a nice income alternative. Far more complete than mine.

Nice screenshots too, it made me review my opinion.

I need a terrainer to clean up everything, it looks unfinished yet and I dont have the skills to make it as I hope it to be.

EDIT:
About armor/damage type. I made them depending on reality (like metal armor for footmen, leather for militia and so on...) so you do plan a battle.
But I'm affraid it leads to unbalanced units. Units with rare/unique armor/damage type.
But I can also change damage/armor ratio to make something more like "110% / 120% / 105% / 85% / 90%" instead of "150% / 65% / 100% / 120% / 80%".

EDIT2: Another problem is that countries have only 4 cities each (national lands).
 
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I did not mean that...

I prefer strong counters. What I meant is to plan using not ONLY armor/weapon types PRACTICAL units. For example: Heavy Cavalry are more enduring, while Light Cavalry are faster than the heavy one, a bit weaker, and have a bit more damage and attack speed. They're good for scouts and hit and run tactics. And although Warriors are, if you compare both descriptions, similar to the light cavalry. The solution is quite simple!
Similar units in stats use different weapons and/or armor. In LoE for example, and in case there was a Light Cavalry. Light Cavalry could use blunt weapons and special Cavalry Armor (different structure of placement of metal clads. Since they're fast, they could easily miss out most "precise" attacks, but they cannot wear absolute heavy armor because of the horse, so they protect only "big regions". The difference between Light and Heavy Cavalry is that Heavy uses more armor, while Light uses just enough armor to protect themselfs. As well as the horses. Warrior use blade and leather.

Also, about special units, try to vary them more. Almost all of them were just better versions of a unit. Of course, some of them really are (like the French Knights) but others could be more variated (for example, there is not even one special unit with lance attack type damage on LoE.)

And less cities wasn't supposed to be good? Try adding more cities then... Well, myself I always preferred more cities, but I could understand your appeal and didn't bother about it.
 
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Just something for the Attack/Armor types. The chart below is what I use in such maps. The percentage values may be a bit off as it was a while ago I checked them. Note that all reductions are 100% or below. Who ever heard of an armor making attacks do more damage to you anyway?

ClothLeatherPlate
Sharp80%70%30%
Pierce90%80%20%
Blunt90%90%80%
Magic90%100%70%
Unarmed50%40%10%

Sharp is for swords, misc blades and axes.
Pierce is for spears, javelins, arrows and etc.
Blunt is for clubs, mauls, hammers, siege weaponry.
Magic is merged with spell, why have both spell and magic damage?
Unarmed is for villagers and such, just because they don't have a weapon in their hands doesn't mean they can't deal a punch.
Fortified is obviously for buildings and I imagine buildings only take damage from blunt and magic attacks, and perhaps fire.
 
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U didnt mention in which ages the players are gonna progress in,dispite that fact i like the idea completely and wish u luck:wink: :thumbs_up:
 
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Indeed, it would be quite interesting if ACTUALLY buildings couldn't be killed by normal units. However, by pillaging and such, they make such a mess inside that could propably be the same...

And although your chart is realistic, Blunt and Plate are OP. I think that there should be what I said before (the Cavalry special armory), one more type of armor, and one more type of damage. Actually... Magic could be Fire instead. Maybe divide Plate into Metal Clad and Chainmail. Another type of damage could be... Hmm... Technically Axe is a Blunt AND Sharp weapon. People always discuss about if it is more Sharp or more Blunt. But maybe it could have its own type of attack? Or perhaps Contraption, for spies, assassins and such. I dunno however what use could they have for proper military uses.
What about Gunpowder?

Edit: Chris, this map is based on a map called Lords of Europe. There, the ages go from Dark Age to Gunpowder Age.
 
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Well, yes your points are good. But like I said it's been a while since I updated the values of the chart. I never really liked attack/armor types. In my latest map creation I have 4 super-basic types.

Physical (any unit's basic attack that uses physical contact, and physical spells such as Slam/Shockwave) damage is reduced by Armor and Magic damage (any unit's basic attack that uses magical contact, and spells such as Firebolt and Blizzard) is reduced by Resistance.
 
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I've been thinking, and I've concluded that spear can't be joined with pierce because a spear have a way higher penetration that an arrow or javelin does not possess. They too have a high penetration, but not as high as spear. Metal clad for example would stop arrows, but not spears for instance. But still... Hmm.

Armor: Metal Clad, Chainmail, Cavalry, Leather, Cloth.

Weaponry: Blunt, Pierce, Spear, Sharp, Fire.

The better weapon for the respective armor is the one below it. Meaning Blunt is the best against Metal Clad, and so it goes... With exception perhaps of Fire. Fire is pretty much harmful to anything... except Metal Clad. Or not. Hmm... Fire could be equal to the former Gunpowder!

Heavy and Light versions of soldiers, (Crusaders?) and Cavalry... First to think it out exactly all the situation. In order of more damage to less damage...

Blunt: Metal Clad/Fortified (if Blunt=Siege), Cavalry, Chainmail, Leather, Cloth.

Metal Clad, because metal does not absorve well blunt attacks.
Cavalry is similar to Metal Clad, so...
Chainmail absorves a little better because of the chains, but still not as good.
Leather absorves really well.
Cloth does not absorve at all... But it's not like a guy wielding a hammer is actually going to hit someone else with clothing, right? Just picturing the situation.

Pierce: Cloth/Chainmail, Leather, Cavalry, Metal Clad.

Cloth is obvious. Arrows can easily go through the chains... On the quantity of leather I imagine they wear, it also pierces through. Cavalry may have unarmored spots, but it is very unlikely that they can hit those. Metal Clad covers everything, so pretty much.

Spear: Cavalry/Cloth, Metal Clad, Chainmail, Leather.

Spear was hard, since it had both high stopping and penetrating powers.
But... Cavalry takes the most damage out of it because of the speed they ride. The impact is just so huge that it goes right through his chest. With Metal Clad a similar effect happens. Chainmail and Leather would technically also be just destroyed by the spear, but since otherwise spear would be kind of OP, I'm taking the evasion that they would have in question.

Sharp: Leather, Chainmail/Cloth, Cavalry, Metal Clad

Sharp cuts right through the Leather, the Chainmail and the Cloth. They are also somehow effective against Cavalry (because of the coverings only on the main parts: vulnerable points and stopping power because of the speed). Metal Clad is the least effective.

Fire... BURN EVERYTHING! HAHAHAHAHHHAHA!!

Well, whaddya think?
 
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Unfortunately you can't really focus only on reality, you have to take the gameplay into account in order to make Armor/Damage types.

Thanks Chizume for your board, it made me realize how stupid it was to give percent bonus. As you said, an armor dont increase the damage you can take.

@Foxy: There will definitely be a custom trade system.
 
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@SasuhKun I honestly think naming an armor type for Metal Clad or Cavalry does not at all match with attack types named Sharp, Pierce, Blunt. It's completely different things. And everything doesn't have to be in the attack types you know.

Let's say there is a unit called Spearman, they can simply have that Vorpal Blades upgrade that makes their spear-thrusts penetrate much more vividly. Archers can have Fire Arrows, which does not deal fire damage in the shape of an existing attack type but in the shape of a negative buff that is inflicted on the target or even the targeted area (which would be quite epic as it could spread if there were many units and buildings there).

The negative buff "Fire; This target is on fire; it takes damage over time.". Obviously it would take an increasing amount of damage.
 
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Well, I still like Cavalry and Metal Clad armor, but still.

About the Fire, yes, I though of that too. But it fits quite well for spell/magic/gunpowder damage, does it not?

The clerics, instead of wielding weapons, throw torches at the "infidels". Hehe.
 
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This project sounds awesome.The first post doesnt explain much,and Since im too lazy to wade through all 20 pages,Some Questions:
What countries will be Involved?
What do you mean by ' speacilized techtree will offer complete freedom in your choices' ?

Good luck for your project,looking forward to the release!
 
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I'll edit the presentation page.

What countries will be Involved?
I dont have the list on this computer but I will add it to the description.

What do you mean by ' speacilized techtree will offer complete freedom in your choices' ?
I meant a complete freedom in the choice of your warfare strategies. Either you'd be a turteling, a siege, a conqueror, a trader...
 
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Ah yes, Goffterdom, I forgot talking about that.

Although I tried to get as near as I could from the reality, the types I proposed are balanced.

All armors are good, medium, or bad to some degree to all the weapons. Except Fire.

For obvious reasons.
 
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I need help for the map presentation.


EUROPE:
THE ART OF WAR


I. GENERAL PRESENTATION
1. MAP PRESENTATION

2. STORY OF THE MAP

3. PROGRESSING


II. MAP CONTENTS
1. MORAL SYSTEM
Losses, Heroes, Spells, High Ranked Units

2. INCOME SYSTEM
Cities, Trade, Upkeep, Automatical, Period of time

3. TRADE SYSTEM
Exchange resources, trade, free cost improves, improves

4. DIPLOMACY SYSTEM
Ally, Trade Partner, Non Aggression Pact, Vassal, Submitted

5. AGE SYSTEM
Achievements, Teching, Influence

6. SHIP SYSTEM
Supply, Death

7. INFLUENCE SYSTEM
City Limit, Vassal, Submitted

8. ARMOR/DAMAGE SYSTEM
Armor and Damage board, Counter Units

9. NATIONS
Nations available, Nation Bonus, Nation Units, North and South Unit Set

10. HEROES
High Ranked Units, Promote


Please tell me if I forgot something.

EDIT:
About Resources and Trade system I'm still brainstorming and paperworking on it.
Same thing about Armor and Damage types.
 
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Yeah I'm not sure I will think to everything that is needed in a map description. If you think I forgot some important points or some fancy features, just tell me. I'm currently working on it.

I thought about the Trade System associated to the resources system (materials, not income from cities) and actually maybe I will base it on what you said Sasuke (having to build some resources structures).

It is really hard for me to see the whole thing working, I'm just very confused atm.

EDIT: Would it be strange to have only one resource (gold) ?
 
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Respectively,

I think you did not forget anything about what we discussed about the map so far. Nation Bonus... Heroes as Commanders and somewhat "better" versions of the standard units... Etc.

Well, I imagined it working quite well. If anything, you can just re-read the two gigantic posts about the systems I suggested. And I may be able to spit it out more options or ideas if I think at it on some lenght.

Yes, it would. Well, it depends on what you mean by "resource". If you mean upgrades and shit, wouldn't be "strange". Although I imagine that by then you would have something better to do with wood. Although, if you mean by resources that you find in each city, it would be incredibly strange.

Alas, something that could help on the resources...

There are some "types" of resources... Minerals, which can be crafted into better things or just be sold (in case of gold, crafting=sold, since you're crafting coins. And by sold I mean whichever way you want to sell them, including all those options of my system.) A manufactured product that does not need any raw material (actually does, but its raw material is so common that you don't actually need to "have it" in-game. Something like wood or iron, for instance.) Also raw, basic materials that can either be sold just for having them and etc; or developing a industry based on them and do better manufactured products. About this type in particular, again, check my 2nd post; the LoME's part. (Playing it once on single player still is advised just to see what I mean.)
 
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I'm not sure I will go that deep in resources system.
I dont think I'm going to make something like manufactured materials, manufactured products and so on...
Just going to use items as raw materials to exchange with other nations.

But I'm wondering how players are going to harvest them. Automatically each "month" (a round) in the town ? in the market ? Automatically depending on resources buildings ? Don't know, I'm still brainstorming.

EDIT:
First page edited.
 
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Ah yes, you would have to implement the blight system anyway (or do some really complicated triggers) to allow you to ONLY build Garrisons near cities.

Speaking of such, the extraction of the products could work like this:

You build a certain building near the cities that extract 5 charges of that (or it is a universal building, dunno) per round or something. Then when the turn is finished, it will automatically transfer to your nearest Trade Counter. However, "why just not make a building that extracts everything, since the charges are low anyway?" you could ask. Well, one of the events or upgrades could increase availability or give some free charges. You would have to build one more, else the charges would stack up in the city, useless.
 
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Can one change the texture of Blight? That would be the best solution.

Other than that one could have a large radius of unbuildable pathing and make only Cities buildable on unbuildable pathing :>

I imagine the system not to be that difficult to make and I'm not even a good GUIer. Just pick all Garrisons and add event to another trigger that says if they are built within range they are removed.
 
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It's not a big deal to implement. As you said I'll use unbuildable textures and make all resources buildings buildable only on this textures. A good point is that all the cities already have this type of textures around them.

And about the garrison you can build it everwhere since it sill can fastly spawn units but it would be only useful near cities.
 
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Yes, it is possible to change the texture of blight. I have seen the strategy I told you guys about used quite sometimes. But whatever fills that function is good enough, be custom blight, be triggering unbuildable terrain.
 
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