Europe: The Art of War

[SasuhKun]

You can now build on any coast. I will also add a "Trade Harbour" that automatically increase income each round. So that having a fleet defending your ports will be necessary.

'Naval Point' sounds like a good idea, but I'm afraid adding another complicated system will make the game less nooby-friendly.

By saying all the litoral, I meant it: It is somewhat strange and unrealistic to buy a port every single tile of the goddamn coast your own. And you forgot the second point: Advantage to coastal countries.

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

By saying all the litoral, I meant it: It is somewhat strange and unrealistic to buy a port every single tile of the goddamn coast your own. And you forgot the second point: Advantage to coastal countries.

Whoa dude, calm down?

Also, you can make a building called a Trade port, and make it work like a gold mine, it can only be built in a certain areas, or you can just make them like cities.

 

[SasuhKun]

I am calm

Well, you gotta think more on it. And you mean like do a special city that would be a port city? Let's develop it.

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Yeah, Port cities that give slightly higher income than cities that are land-locked, and have them surrounded by heavy defenses, ballista towers, a couple knights, a couple archers, tons of footmen, and an outside navy, and how about making the city capable of training a special caste of boats depending on which nation you are or being able to make Privateers/Marines for land use?


Also

"o buy a port every single tile of the goddamn coast your own" doesn't seem to be calm.

 

[warman45]

plus any port should be attackable by sea, maning the income advantage for coastal countries is negated by the necesity for a strong navy, meaning they make and spend more than land based powers.

 

[SasuhKun]

plus any port should be attackable by sea, maning the income advantage for coastal countries is negated by the necesity for a strong navy, meaning they make and spend more than land based powers.

Finally a good answer to the 2nd problem: Advantage to coastal cities.

Well, the way it is going... I already though that ETAoW was going to be different, but now even with this difference between naval and land nations... god, this is going to be the insanest map ever. It will get more hosted than even DotA *-*

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Finally a good answer to the 2nd problem: Advantage to coastal cities.

Well, the way it is going... I already though that ETAoW was going to be different, but now even with this difference between naval and land nations... god, this is going to be the insanest map ever. It will get more hosted than even DotA *-*

One more key difference,
This will be Good
Whilst DotA is bad.

Minor difference, you know not to big.

Also that is a pretty good Idea. So it would go

Villages
Minor Cities
Cities
Major Cities
Capitals
Naval Cities

??? Sept for Naval countries Naval Cities would have the income of either Major cities or just cities?

Heres a good system, not literal gold/wood use but hey.


Villages- 50/50 G/W
Minor Cities- 75/75 G/W
Cities 125/125 G/W
Major Cities 175/175 G/W
Capitals 200/200 G/W
Naval Cities (Land Based) 200/250 G/W?
Naval Cities (Sea Empires) 150/175 G/W

??

Also Naval cities could offer more Wood as an imported item instead of more gold? So they could offer the same amount of gold as Major Cities, but provide more trade resources? I.E. Wood?


Also many nations have access to a sea, so I don't exactly know where you get a Seaborne empire having the advantage if you have to capture the Naval City, which would obviously be surrounded in better defenses because of it's strategical value, plus people will be vying for that city so you will have to constantly defend it from marauding privateers from other nations as well as land-based armies. Me personally it would hardly be worth the trouble of having to defend it against other nations who wan't it so badly.

Then again if it offered Extra wood, that would make it more useful to a nation because of the wood-mass required to build buildings/upgrade units.



Also, how will the tech-tree be? Will it be as simple as Lords of Europe or will it be more advanced?


Like needing Infantry Training/Smithing Techniques/Iron Armor/Professionalism to get Trained Soldiers/Special Units


Or like

Advanced Smithing Techniques - - Armour Upgrades +3/Attack Upgrade +3/ Professionalism/Calvary training to get Light Calvary to Heavy Calvary?

And if you don't have these things you have just simple untrained Militia units?


Such aaaaaazzzzzzzzz.


Conscript, Conscript Calvary, Conscript Archer, Conscript Pike-man (0 upgrades to attack and defense)

Militia, Militia Calvary, Militia Archer, Militia Pike (+1 +1 upgrades + Infantry Training + Calvary Training + Archery Training + Skirmisher Training.)

Trained Swordsman, Trained Calvary, Archer, Trained Pike-man (+ 2 2 Upgrades + Advanced Infantry Training + Advanced Calvary Training + Advanced Archery Training + Advanced Skirmisher Training)

Expert Swordsman, Expert Calvary, Expert Archer, Expert Pike-man (+3+3 Upgrades + Advanced Four Training (+ Advanced Infantry Training + Advanced Calvary Training + Advanced Archery Training + Advanced Skirmisher Training))

Professional Swordsman, Professional Calvary, Professional Archer, Professional Pike-man ( +4 +4 Upgrades (Advanced Four Training) + Professionalism )

Master Swordsman, Master Calvary, Master Archer, Master Pike-man (+5+5)

Royal Guard, Royal Calvary, Crossbowman, Royal Pike-man (+6 +6 Upgrades to Damage and Defense + Master Infantry Training + Master Calvary Training + Master Archery Training + Master Skirmisher Training + Professionalism + Military Tradition + Royal Training)

Special Units (+7 +7 Upgrades to Attack and Defense + Master Infantry Training + Master Calvary Training + Master Archery Training + Master Skirmisher Training + Professionalism + Military Tradition + Royal Training)

Musket Men, Arquebusters, Skirmishers, Dragoons (+8 +* To Attack and Defense + Master Infantry Training + Master Calvary Training + Master Archery Training + Master Skirmisher Training + Professionalism + Military Tradition + Gunpowder Research)



*whew* I'll have more ideas with tech trees like this if you like this... confusing as hell.

 

[Peonus]

Hello, I haven't ever posted on this forum but a few days ago my friend showed me the new Lords of Europe and I was very pleased to hear someone was taking up the mantle for improving it. I hope I found the right people.

My friend and I played Lords of Europe a lot two years ago but there wasn't a new version or any improvement on it for months so we slowly stopped playing. Of all the European diplomacy maps; LoE was easily the best because of the flexibility of conquest and how no game was always the same due to different countries, players and strategies.

I hope I can offer some criticism and comments on the improvements you've made and suggested because I've found much great and others confusing or counterproductive.

THE GOOD
I find the concept of trade between countries good. It can foster good relations, gold supply for allies which makes it more strategic to focus on enemies now than later. Also if there is every a juggernaut player the few remaining can band together and enjoy a gold bonus to counter the beast.

My only problem is that caravans have to be sent from market to market. While it is realistic, it is sort of... well not fun to defend caravan lines. That's just my opinion though. I propose a new Trade Rights idea taken from Medieval Total War 2. Trade Rights give bonus gold to both players based on a formula of ( for example (#cities combined x 100 gold)/(2)) and shared. Trade rights could provide stronger players a bargaining chip to negotiate with smaller countries and smaller countries can enjoy the patronage of a stronger country.

The coastal trade ports idea is fantastic. I read you are expanding the coast line which will be great. I always found the LoE coastlines restricting because I would play England and attempt a D-day style landing of France.

I heard a morale system revolving around a unit's mana was also being in place. If so, that would be fantastic.


THE BAD
I don't agree with increasing the tick for income. While 2 minutes and longer games provide more realism; in reality I've found it all to frantic to have income to fight especially when cornered by a stronger power. I suggest lowering the tick back to 45, even 30 seconds or a continuous flow of gold so even a small and beaten country can show it still has some teeth.

THE UGLY
I am confused by the influence point system (mostly because I haven't played it yet but I will when I find my CD key) but from what I have read of your posts it's complicated. There is probably a better way to limit fast expansion while protecting new players.

COUNTRIES AND INDIVIDUALITY
I think as an end goal; each country should eventually have its own tech tree, units and game play emphasis. For example, the Holy Roman Empire, for all it's troubles, possessed one of the largest armies in Western/Central Europe. During the Third Crusade Frederick Barbarossa raised 100,000 troops which was such a massive army they could not travel by boat. The HRE should thus be emphasized on infantry, conscripts, milita as France would have cavalry and England naval and longbows and so on.


UNITS AND MISC
The crusader unit in my day never saw much use (mostly because it was glitched and didn't appear). I don't know if any proposed solutions to it have been made but I have some. Make the crusader unit weaker than the average footmen but give it a bonus when attacking Islamic countries thus staying true to their namesake. Say a Crusader has -30% strength of a normal infantry/pike unit but when fighting Islamic countries gains a +70% or so bonus. Since Crusaders are renowned for their pillaging (Knights Templar) they should possess a pillage bonus as well so they have a use in the main European theatre.

My friend also told me invisible assassins who target kings are going to be included in this game. My concern is that invisible assassins provide too much benefit of scouting and detection but if the invisibility is limited or can be countered by good scout towers or so forth, then it would be alright. Assassins should have an ability to put to sleep or poison key units which sabotages their war effort. While it doesn't fit the assassin creed, it does open the way for the units ultimate and untimely death. Maybe Italian States assassins can be called Inquisitors?

Also, to fill up doodad space you could make a flag/banner doodad and scatter them all over the region. These flags and banners can change color whenever the region is taking over by a new country to reflect who's in control of the region. Maybe this is too complicated or unworkable but it's a nice touch.



THE END
That is all for now, I'll post more when I play the game again and your version as well and provide more insight that will hopefully be useful in making a better game.

 

[Vuormalainen]

Map Aspects: Real Europe map, naval battles, epic land battles (more than 500 units)

Good luck with that, without lag.

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

More than 500 and still being realistic, then you need to put realistic upgrades, training, and technology needed to train a unit such as them. Plus having unit types ranging from recruits to full-blow Royal guards would be interesting, and instead of the royal guards having upgraded damage they could just gain like Crit strike and such, so their en essence the same troop with slightly upgraded dmg from the +1 +1 or +7 +7 upgrades to atk and def, but they gain like a 50+ to HP and then every few upgrades from milita to master they get thinks like Skilled Swordsman which is Critical Strike, and things like that, and Plate-mail which has a 15% chance to reduce 10 damage but cannot reduce attacks to below 10 damage.

 

[SasuhKun]

More than 500 and still being realistic, then you need to put realistic upgrades, training, and technology needed to train a unit such as them. Plus having unit types ranging from recruits to full-blow Royal guards would be interesting, and instead of the royal guards having upgraded damage they could just gain like Crit strike and such, so their en essence the same troop with slightly upgraded dmg from the +1 +1 or +7 +7 upgrades to atk and def, but they gain like a 50+ to HP and then every few upgrades from milita to master they get thinks like Skilled Swordsman which is Critical Strike, and things like that, and Plate-mail which has a 15% chance to reduce 10 damage but cannot reduce attacks to below 10 damage.

I already did like 10 posts with those type of ideas XD

And the units are like really small, so it will already diminish the lag a bit. And at least on Lords of Europe, there is a ratio for the towns: Gold : Wood = 2 : 1

What it could be done, is that the naval cities could Aside from the normal 2 : 1 bonus, you could to choose to either export things from your port ( extra 0.5 gold income, which depends on the size of the city; or import, and it would add 0.5 "gold", but in wood [because if it was 0.5 on the wood itself, it would be a lot better to put on gold and then convert to wood. Which would mean that the income would be 1 : 1 gold : wood, since half the gold is actually 1 lumber] And yes, naval cities wouldn't be a sub classification, but a classification. So cities would be divided into land cities and coastal cities. And those are divided into towns, cities, major cities, and the capital [only one capital for a country, except if you capture the capital of another country.]

I'm just afraid of one thing: that the way it is going, it may empower too much the naval play... oh well.

Ah yes, and you could add CHOICES. Aside from the already mentioned upgrades, you could create a variable of unique upgrades, but you could only choose some few upgrades, so you could customize your army even more.

 

[warman45]

people who spend money on navies will have weaker armies no mayyer what, so land powers may make less cash nut they will kill a foolish naval power.

 

[Goffterdom]

I already did like 10 posts with those type of ideas XD

And the units are like really small, so it will already diminish the lag a bit. And there is a ratio for the towns: Gold : Wood = 2 : 1

What it could be done, is that the naval cities could Aside from the normal 2 : 1 bonus, you could to choose to either export things from your port ( extra 0.5 gold income, which depends on the size of the city; or import, and it would add 0.5 "gold", but in wood [because if it was 0.5 on the wood itself, it would be a lot better to put on gold and then convert to wood. Which would mean that the income would be 1 : 1 gold : wood, since half the gold is actually 1 lumber] And yes, naval cities wouldn't be a sub classification, but a classification. So cities would be divided into land cities and coastal cities. And those are divided into towns, cities, major cities, and the capital [only one capital for a country, except if you capture the capital of another country.]

I'm just afraid of one thing: that the way it is going, we empower too much the naval play... oh well.

Ah yes, and we could add CHOICES. Aside from the already mentioned upgrades, we could create a variable of unique upgrades, but you could only choose some few upgrades, so you could customize your army even more.

Sasuke I have to tell you some things. First of all, every post is useful, maybe you already said some of the ideas he had, it dosent matter, the point is that it's useful to always give ideas. Already given or not.

I dont have a fixed ratio for towns at the moment.

[Private Message]

----

Now I have some news for you. I was reading all your ideas all this time, I didnt want to stop you in your creativity so I didnt say anything. We have nice stuff here actually and I'd like to say that you guys have given me lots of ideas.

About Sea Gameplay.
Increasing importance of sea gameplay is necessary, you made me realize it. For that I think I will inspire me from Risk Next Gen or Risk Devolution. I wont create SS dont worry (for those who knows what it is). I will just make the naval units powerful enough and useful enough to change the issue of a war.
One of the main thing is the income cut a fleet can do (cut income = a fair decreases of the current income of your enemy). In the previous Lords of Europe it was impossible to cut a player's income with just a fleet.
This idea leads to the importance of coastal towns. As you said their income must be boosted. For now there are 3 levels of town (Minor/Major/Capital City). Instead of adding another type (Coastal City) what about adding another sea building. We would have a "Military Shipyard" and a "Trade Port". The number of "Trade Port" you can build can be limited by different things (it will probably be the age you are atm). A "Trade Port" would be expansive but add a fair advantage in income. Making them a target for any enemy's fleet.
Another thing that can improve the sea advantage are the capturable sea cities around the map and the Sea Routes (that are likes cities but without a proper name and with a different implementation in the game) that will likely be represented by a small hill in the sea with a flag on it.
According to that we need another naval unit-tree with a system of Rock/Paper/Scissor between each military ships. Having a fast, manoeuvrable but weak ship in counter of big, slow and slaughterer galleon. But this galleon would be insane against land. Then using Medium ships against light. If you have some ideas you can give them I'll appreciate


Ok now regarding Tech-Tree. It's not finished yet, actually I didnt really think about re-forging it. It can be a good idea. In my mind for now there are those kinds of tech: Techs to unlock unit's abilities, techs to increase resources cap, techs to increase the number of towns you can have, techs to improve damages/armor/attack speed/range/mana/hit points or whatever for units, techs to unlock certain buildings, techs to improve things such as trade/stability and I think some other techs I forgot.
Poseidon you proposed some nice stuff. Adding techs to unlock units can be another plus for the map. Again, if you have other ideas go on !

Concerning primary defense of the towns there will be none. If you want to have protected cities you have to build yourself those cities. Also, boats will still use more food than land units (but less than before I think, the balance is not did yet).

The food capacity will depends on how many players are remaining.
1-3: 300
4-7: 240
8-10: 180
11-12: 120

It will disable massing/camping armies at start and in the mid-game there will be less players which means an higher food cap.


I think the first post will also be updated, since the map is far from the original idea.

 

[warman45]

for naval units

lvl1: Sloop of war. small 10 gun ship that is fast and manouverable, used by pirates the world over, it can carry a crew of around 30.

lvl2: Brigant. Merchants galore, these frigates can be armed to the teeth for taking out sloops, or they could be used to carry cargo (just ask the dutch east india company) usually carries 20-40 guns. Black beard's flagship the Queen ann's revenge was a brigant, but it is very rare for a pirate to have a ship this big

lvl3: Ship of the line. rule britania, or spain, or france, but if you're france then you're navy wont last very long. these 74-120 gun monsters are sssssllllllloooooowwwwww. but overpowered. these ships are so powerfull, that one alone can change the strategic situation for an entire nation, being symbols of power, and insecurity, no other ship afloat can touch these, however they will have a rediculous time hitting a sloop.

 

[Goffterdom]

Thanks

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Ship Types

Brig: A small warship carrying 5-10 guns on both the left and right sides. Usually used in mass numbers because of their low cost to operate and maintain a good four brigs could potentially take out a Galleon or Monitor.

Brigantine: Brigantine, a bigger better version of the Brig, this two-masted Warship has on average 15-20 guns and is more costly than the Brig but harder to take down. Good for a distraction if trying to slip a few transport ships by a Man-of-war.

Caravel: A Caravel is a 15-20 gun ship and it's design allows it to go faster through rough seas as well as calm seas. Caravels are very useful for racing down transport ships, however they are near useless against any other ship except maybe the Monitor.

Galleon: A Galleon is the first Frigate class ship you come across with a good 40-45 guns a Galleon holds a lot more fire-power than any previous ship, however it is very costly. Galleons are good escort for Monitor's and Transport ships.

Man-of-war: The Man-of-war is a 60-70 cannoned ship. Though not very fast the Man-of-War is a very useful ship to have when having a pitched naval battle, or when assaulting a heavily defended Harbor.

Monitor: A Monitor has 20-25 cannons, and lacks when it comes to Naval Power, however it has two mounted Mortars which make it effective at destroying harbors from way out at sea, and taking out heavily defended canal's, as well as bombarding land armies that are in conflict to close to shore.

Transport Ship: 5 cannon ship with very little fire-power, however it carries many troops.

Ship-of-the-line-of-War: This is the behemoth of naval power. With Eighty guns on both sides the Ship-of-the-line is a deadly addition to ones naval strength. Very Costly to both Man and Build the ship, it is well worth the price. Fives masts make it swift, French/Spaniard design make it easily capable of sailing through choppy waters. For any naval empire, the SOTLOW is a must.

Admiralty (England) This specially designed ship holds eighty guns on both sides. Manned by the very sailors of England, this ship is deadly and not to be trifled with. England has long had a history of excellent naval units, the Admiralty attests to that greatness.

Santa Anna (Spain) With 112 cannons the Santa Anna is a prime example of Spaniard Craftsmanship. Santa Anna is in essence a Ship of the Line of War, however its hull has been vastly modified and with the same Franco/Spaniard design this ship sails through choppy waters with ease.

Foudroyant (France) This eighty gunned behemoth is a little lacking in fire-power but makes up for it with speed and finesse. The Foudroyant is easily capable of running down any ship trying to get away from it, and can hold its own against any Ship of the Line of War.

(These are the only nations I have so far that have special ship types that have been famous, ill keep searching for more)

 

[Goffterdom]

Your ideas Warman and PoseidonGod are good. But I think your forgot something: the map takes place in the early 1300's, and ends with the gunpowder discovery. All the ship ideas you gave me are good for the last age of EtAoW or for Age of Napoleon, but not for the early ages of my map. What about war galleys ? In the middle-age they were just using ballistas and boarding werent they ?

EDIT: Also if you have new ideas of units that I can make you can go on (don't forget to give me a model attached to your ideas (imported or not))

EDIT2: I also need a name for the military and for the civilian teching building. I'm bored of the too overused "Blacksmith" and "University". I thought about "Military Center" and "Civilian Center" but it's very ugly.

EDIT3: Also concerning ages, don't you think it can be good to make something more different from Age of Empire ? Removing ages and adding some techs ?

EDIT4: Here's what I came up with:
First Age: None
Then (in order): Age of Feudalism -> Age of Lords -> Age of Discoveries -> Age of Powder

What's your opinion ?

 

[SasuhKun]

Goffterdom, you didn't comment at my ideas... like choosing some exclusive technology, but disabling the other... so you're able to customize more (Solar Conquest for example... but not like a FINAL ULTRA HUGE technology or something.)

Academy (could be for either civilians or military... if it is going to be for Military, then it would be Military Academy)

Manor (Where big decisions and philosophy is though on... Civilian?)

University is not that common either, I still like it D:

Yeah, could be the Military Academy (pure military training, making units better or unlocking more, as well as the forging of weapons, that also gets better with time.)

Manor (some civilian upgrades)

University (Scientific upgrades, discovery of new things, like how to melt and mold new metals? [In case, you would need first to discover how to melt and mold thy metal before reforging thy weapons with it. Liked my medieval talking? Thy. *giggles*])

Guild O' Masons perhaps?

(The lack of the stats you informed before on the 1st post make me freak out. I hope you still have them ç-ç)

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Your ideas Warman and PoseidonGod are good. But I think your forgot something: the map takes place in the early 1300's, and ends with the gunpowder discovery. All the ship ideas you gave me are good for the last age of EtAoW or for Age of Napoleon, but not for the early ages of my map. What about war galleys ? In the middle-age they were just using ballistas and boarding werent they ?

EDIT: Also if you have new ideas of units that I can make you can go on (don't forget to give me a model attached to your ideas (imported or not))

EDIT2: I also need a name for the military and for the civilian teching building. I'm bored of the too overused "Blacksmith" and "University". I thought about "Military Center" and "Civilian Center" but it's very ugly.

EDIT3: Also concerning ages, don't you think it can be good to make something more different from Age of Empire ? Removing ages and adding some techs ?

Trireme: The crew was consisted of 200 men: the Captain, 10 dignitaries, 2 archers-bowmen, 14 soldiers, and 170 oarsmen. It is calculated that the bireme’s weight along with the crew, was 50 tones, as the ballast’s weight, which helped to the balance of the ship.


Dromon" The dromons (from Greek δρόμων, dromōn, i.e. "runner") were the most important warships of the Byzantine navy from the 6th to 12th centuries AD. They were indirectly developed from the ancient trireme and were usually propelled by both oars and sails, a configuration that had been used by navies in the Mediterranean Sea for centuries.
Literary sources and accounts reveal that there were at least three varieties of dromon, while the exact relation of the dromon proper with the chelandion, a term with which it is often used interchangeably, somewhat unclear. These were, firstly the ousiakon which took its name from one company or ousia of 100 men. This was a two-banked galley with the lower rank rowing only, and the upper rank rowing or disengaging to fight when required. Secondly the slightly larger pamphylos with a crew of between 120 and 160. Thirdly the dromon proper, which had a crew of 200: 50 on the lower bank, and 100 on the upper bank in two files, together with 50 marines.
The dromons had a central tower (xylokastron – Greek: "wooden castle") near the main mast, from which the marines could use their bows and arrows or throw spears and other projectiles. Dromons were frequently equipped with flamethrowers (siphones, and as such the ships were described as siphōnophoroi dromones) that discharged Greek fire and catapults capable of hurling 10 kg projectiles up to 250 meters.

In-game Usage: The Trireme is pretty much a melee ship with a couple boarders and archers to pick off oarsmen. So In-game it could have an ability called Board, which forces the boat it's boarding to hold still and then theres a 50% chance that the boarding vessel either wins or loses. If it Loses the enemies get it for half-health, if it wins it gets the enemie boat with half-health. Triremes would be allowed to use this ability on only other Trireme's and Longships. However it has no chance of boarding any ship past the Caravel level. The Trireme could also Upgrade into a Droman and gain a regular attack as well as board.

Trireme (Catapult Mounted): The Trireme ship could also have an upgrade which allows it to upgrade into a Trireme Catapult ship, which would lose it's boarding ability but gain a normal attack. These can still be taken over by a enemie Trireme, but it only has a 75% chance to get it for 25% HP left.

Long Ship: The longship was a type of ship that was developed over a period of centuries and perfected by its most famous user, the Vikings, in approximately the 9th century. The ships were clinker-built, utilizing overlapping wooden strakes.

In-game Usage: The Long-ship could have 2 crews of archers. It has no boarding party option, however it does have a regular fast attack.

Knarr

The knaar, a relative of the longship, was a type of cargo vessel. It differed from the longship in that it was larger and relied solely on its square rigged sail for propulsion.

In-game Usage: The Knarr can be a Unit-transport vessel which CANNOT be boarded due to the fact that if a trireme takes it over, he also takes over the hero and or units inside.

Cog

The cog was a design which is believed to have evolved from (or at least been influenced by) the longship, and was in wide use by the 12th century. It too used the clinker method of construction. It was most famous for its use by the Hanseatic League
The first mention of a cog is from 948 AD in Muiden near Amsterdam. These early cogs probably used a steering oar (side rudder, quarter rudder). There is no evidence of a stern rudder in northern Europe until about 1240. It is hard to tell exactly what cogs looked like. The best preserved is the Bremen cog, where the hull is preserved but not the rig. Other than that, we have to rely on contemporary images.
These images show that the cog was a wide and spacious transport ship. Early cogs had open hulls and could be rowed short distances. During the 13th century they became larger and received a deck, as well as a raised platform in the bow and stern. These are some features which are common for all cogs: one yard-sail; clinker outer planking at the sides of the hull; straight stem and sternpost, opposed to the rounded Viking stem; strong cross-beams, usually protruded through the ship's sides, to hold the sides together.

In-game Usage: The Cog can be a bigger better version of the Longboat, with four archer teams inside instead of two, giving it an ability to attack two targets at once. It also has more HP and armor, and the chance of warding off enemy boarders is 75%


Caravel
The caravel was a ship invented in Moorish Spain and used in the Mediterranean from the 13th century. Unlike the longship and cog, it used a carvel method of construction. It could be either square rigged (Caravela Redonda) or lateen rigged (Caravela Latina). The most famous examples of caravels were the Niña and the Pinta.

In-game Usage: Caravel's could be the most advanced of the ships currently made. It could carry a boarding party, which gives it the boarding ability, as well as six archer teems giving it the ability to have a 3 enemy multi-shot.

Carrack
The carrack was a ship type invented in southern Europe in the 15th century, and was one of the most influential ship designs in history. It was a larger vessel than the caravel. Columbus’s ship, the Santa María was a famous example of a carrack.

In-game Usage: Carracks use is more for mid-to-late game, but it is still a helpful addition. A Carrack is equivelant to a Man-of-War except in the sense that it is an older model, and has a few structural faults. The Carrack carries a good 40-50 Cannons.



War Senate, Military Academy, General's advisory, Scientists Laboratory, Royal War Council, War Council, Royal Council, Masons Council, Masons guild, Traders Guild, Traders Hall, War Hall, Civil Hall, Town Hall....



Longboat model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/vikinglongboat-49849/?prev=search=boat&d=list&r=20
Man-o-War model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/battleship-49924/?prev=search=boat&d=list&r=20
Cog Model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/woodelfship-49697/?prev=search=boat&d=list&r=20
Trireme Model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/trireme-49848/?prev=search=boat&d=list&r=20
Privateer Model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...ed-48895/?prev=search=boat&r=20&d=list&page=2
Caravel Model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/tudor-caravel-111530/?prev=search=ship&d=list&r=20
Carrack Model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/carrack-111410/?prev=search=ship&d=list&r=20
Ship of the Line Model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/galleon-111348/?prev=search=ship&d=list&r=20
Brig Model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/batleship-52627/?prev=search=ship&d=list&r=20
Galleon Model:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/frigate-111035/?prev=search=ship&d=list&r=20


And for the rest you use normal WC3 Ship models.

 

[Goffterdom]

Of course I still have them =D I didnt erase one hour of writting =D

Well about your army customizing I think there are already enough way to custom it. I think I'm going to keep my customization ideas for the new concept of Glory of War (aswell as the Moral System).

EDIT:

Woot I didnt see this long post. Going to read it =D

EDIT2:

I wasnt planning to have so many sea units. I thought there would be something like 6 different ships. I think I will base my ships on what you bring me, but I wont use them all. Thanks for all this, +rep !

 

[warman45]

ok, well the middle ages were divided into early (dark) middle and high. the high was characterized by the plauge, the last of the crusades, the re-introduction of trade, and the end of isolationism. the middle was symbolised with castles, and the first crusades, and the early with....... vikings! and so

dark age----Medieval period----Late Middle age-----Renaisance

(the renaisance was the first age in wich the inhabitants achnowledged they were in a new age so dont backstab em by giving it a different name lol, the renaisance actually had large numbers of melee weapons as gunpowder was un-reliable)

the late Middle ages saw the introduction of the cannon and hand grenade, especially in muslim regions, and, while crude and imobile, these cannons quickly destroyed the advantage that castles gave. fortress' would not be effective again untill the invention of the star fort desighn.

p.s. can someone take a look at my game terrain in the terrain board please =)

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Of course I still have them =D I didnt erase one hour of writting =D

Well about your army customizing I think there are already enough way to custom it. I think I'm going to keep my customization ideas for the new concept of Glory of War (aswell as the Moral System).

EDIT:

Woot I didnt see this long post. Going to read it =D

EDIT2:

I wasnt planning to have so many sea units. I thought there would be something like 6 different ships. I think I will base my ships on what you bring me, but I wont use them all. Thanks for all this, +rep !

How does one +rep someone who has rep disabled? o.o

ok, well the middle ages were divided into early (dark) middle and high. the high was characterized by the plauge, the last of the crusades, the re-introduction of trade, and the end of isolationism. the middle was symbolised with castles, and the first crusades, and the early with....... vikings! and so

dark age----Medieval period----Late Middle age-----Renaisance

(the renaisance was the first age in wich the inhabitants achnowledged they were in a new age so dont backstab em by giving it a different name lol, the renaisance actually had large numbers of melee weapons as gunpowder was un-reliable)

the late Middle ages saw the introduction of the cannon and hand grenade, especially in muslim regions, and, while crude and imobile, these cannons quickly destroyed the advantage that castles gave. fortress' would not be effective again untill the invention of the star fort desighn.

p.s. can someone take a look at my game terrain in the terrain board please =)

Mmm, use some other source of info Warman. They tend to take the time to develop it fully and thoroughly, as well as putting all the correct grammar and punctuation in so you don't have to worry about it, as if you do already. >.>

Wiki Quote Renaissance

The Renaissance (French for "rebirth"; Italian: Rinascimento, from ri- "again" and nascere "be born")[1] was a cultural movement that spanned roughly the 14th to the 17th century, beginning in Florence in the Late Middle Ages and later spreading to the rest of Europe. The term is also used more loosely to refer to the historic era, but since the changes of the Renaissance were not uniform across Europe, this is a general use of the term. As a cultural movement, it encompassed a resurgence of learning based on classical sources, the development of linear perspective in painting, and gradual but widespread educational reform. Traditionally, this intellectual transformation has resulted in the Renaissance being viewed as a bridge between the Middle Ages and the Modern era. Although the Renaissance saw revolutions in many intellectual pursuits, as well as social and political upheaval, it is perhaps best known for its artistic developments and the contributions of such polymaths as Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo, who inspired the term "Renaissance man".

Wiki Quote, Dark Ages

"Dark Ages" is a term referring to the perceived period of cultural and economic decline and disruption that took place in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire. The word is derived from Latin saeculum obscurum (dark age), a phrase first recorded in 1602. The label employs traditional light-versus-darkness imagery to contrast the "darkness" of the period with earlier and later periods of "light". Originally, the term characterized the bulk of the Middle Ages as a period of intellectual darkness between the extinguishing of the light of Rome, and the Renaissance or rebirth from the 14th century onwards. This definition is still found in popular usage, but increased recognition of the accomplishments of the Middle Ages since the 19th century has led to the label being restricted in application. Today it is frequently applied only to the earlier part of the era, the Early Middle Ages. However, most modern scholars who study the era tend to avoid the term altogether for its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate for any part of the Middle Ages.
The concept of a Dark Age originated with the Italian scholar Petrarch (Francesco Petrarca) in the 1330s, and was originally intended as a sweeping criticism of the character of Late Latin literature. Petrarch regarded the post-Roman centuries as "dark" compared to the light of classical antiquity. Later historians expanded the term to refer to the transitional period between Roman times and the High Middle Ages, including not only the lack of Latin literature, but also a lack of contemporary written history, general demographic decline, limited building activity and material cultural achievements in general. Popular culture has further expanded on the term as a vehicle to depict the Middle Ages as a time of backwardness, extending its pejorative use and expanding its scope.

Wiki Quote Crusades/Crusaders

This article is about the 11th, 12th and 13th century religious military campaigns in the Middle East. For other uses, see Crusade (disambiguation).

The Crusades were a series of religiously sanctioned military campaigns waged by much of Latin Christian Europe, particularly the Franks of France and the Holy Roman Empire. The specific crusades to restore Christian control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291. Other campaigns in Spain and Eastern Europe continued into the 15th century. The Crusades were fought mainly by Roman Catholic forces (taking place after the East-West Schism and mostly before the Protestant Reformation) against Muslims who had occupied the near east since the time of the Rashidun Caliphate, although campaigns were also waged against pagan Slavs, pagan Balts, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the various popes. Orthodox Christians also took part in fighting against Islamic forces in some Crusades. Crusaders took vows and were granted penance for past sins, often called an indulgence.
The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule and were launched in response to a call from the Christian Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia. The term is also used to describe contemporaneous and subsequent campaigns conducted through to the 16th century in territories outside the Levant usually against pagans, heretics, and peoples under the ban of excommunication for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons. Rivalries among both Christian and Muslim powers led also to alliances between religious factions against their opponents, such as the Christian alliance with the Sultanate of Rum during the Fifth Crusade.
The Crusades had far-reaching political, economic, and social impacts, some of which have lasted into contemporary times. Because of internal conflicts among Christian kingdoms and political powers, some of the crusade expeditions were diverted from their original aim, such as the Fourth Crusade, which resulted in the sack of Christian Constantinople and the partition of the Byzantine Empire between Venice and the Crusaders. The Sixth Crusade was the first crusade to set sail without the official blessing of the Pope. The Seventh, Eighth and Ninth Crusades resulted in Mamluk and Hafsid victories, as the Ninth Crusade marked the end of the Crusades in the Middle East.

Wiki Quote, Late Middle Ages

The Late Middle Ages is a term used by historians to describe European history in the period of the 14th and 15th centuries (c. 1300–1500). The Late Middle Ages were preceded by the High Middle Ages, and followed by the Early Modern era (Renaissance).
Around 1300, centuries of European prosperity and growth came to a halt. A series of famines and plagues, such as the Great Famine of 1315–1317 and the Black Death, reduced the population by as much as half according to some estimates.[by whom?] Along with depopulation came social unrest and endemic warfare. France and England experienced serious peasant risings: the Jacquerie, the Peasants' Revolt, and the Hundred Years' War. To add to the many problems of the period, the unity of the Catholic Church was shattered by the Western Schism. Collectively these events are sometimes called the Crisis of the Late Middle Ages.
Despite these crises, the 14th century was also a time of great progress within the arts and sciences. A renewed interest in ancient Greek and Roman texts led to what has later been termed the Italian Renaissance. The absorption of Latin texts had started in the twelfth-century Renaissance through contact with Arabs during the Crusades, but the availability of important Greek texts accelerated with the capture of Constantinople by the Ottoman Turks, when many Byzantine scholars had to seek refuge in the West, particularly Italy.
Combined with this influx of classical ideas was the invention of printing which facilitated dissemination of the printed word and democratized learning. These two things would later lead to the Protestant Reformation. Toward the end of the period, an era of discovery began (Age of Discovery). The growth of the Ottoman Empire, culminating in the fall of Constantinople in 1453, cut off trading possibilities with the east. Europeans were forced to discover new trading routes, as was the case with Columbus’s travel to the Americas in 1492, and Vasco da Gama’s circumnavigation of India and Africa in 1498. Their discoveries strengthened the economy and power of European nations.
The changes brought about by these developments have caused many scholars to see it as leading to the end of the Middle Ages, and the beginning of the modern world. However, the division will always be a somewhat artificial one for other scholars, who argue that since ancient learning was never entirely absent from European society, there is a certain continuity between the Classical and the Modern age. Some historians, particularly in Italy, prefer not to speak of the Late Middle Ages at all, but rather see the 14th century Renaissance as a direct transition to the Modern Era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages#Hundred_Years.27_War


Also, it wasn't that Gunpowder was unreliable in that period of time, it was just that arquebusters, muskets, pistols and such took too long too reload and it was expensive to produce metal balls and gunpowder for an entire army of troops firing with minimal accuracy.

And Calvary/Soldiers were troops who were used up until the First world war.

 

[SasuhKun]

PoseidonSeaGod, where do you get all that precious info? ç-ç

I looked all over the internet (with the help of Ol' Good Google) and couldn't find much. I already suggested everything that I found on the internet so far, so...

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

PoseidonSeaGod, where do you get all that precious info? ç-ç

I looked all over the internet (with the help of Ol' Good Google) and couldn't find much. I already suggested everything that I found on the internet so far, so...

Google Chrome, I Google specific terms, such as Middle Ages, then open up every link on the first page, skim through the articles, if it matches what I already know about history I put it in a second window to the side. When im finished searching all the specific terms I've thought of I go to the second window, maximize it and read. If it fully matches what I know to be true and fact, or mostly does I put it up. If it's got the gist of the idea, but not main points I add in the main points.

I also have every history book since 6th grade on my shelves.

 

[Goffterdom]

Longship -> Pierce and Fast attack
Trireme -> Melee and Slow attack, can Board other ships
Transport Vessel
Caravel -> Pierce and Fast attack, >1 attack at once
Brig -> Gunpowder and Medium attack
Galleon -> Gunpowder and Slow attack, Medium manoeuvrability
Man-of-War -> Gunpowder and Slow attack, Low manoeuvrability
Ship-of-the-line -> Gunpowder and Very Low attack, Very Slow manoeuvrability

This is it ?


Concerning reputation I can still add you. Why did you disable it ?

 

[warman45]

i mentioned the crusades and plauge because they loosened the social structure of medieval europe, allowing for the renaisance to take place, as before the crusades, there was almost no trade, and the plauge because it loosened the social structure making it easier for people to find work as well as allowing them to pick work that was profitable, thus allowing increased freedom and standards of living, wich lead to an increase in technological development.

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Eh, I don't mind the Rep, It's just not important to me so I disabled it.


And warman I know why you put it, I was just putting every detail in so it would allow to be more historically correct.

 

[warman45]

unrelated but funny (ubf) i was doing a history semenar on the crusades, and one person comes up and proposes that the crusades were started because the nights templar was looking for the ark of the covenant wich posesed mystical powers. i cited him for riping off both the first assasins creed and indiana jones. lol =)

on topic: all ships should be able to board, and it would be cool if when a ship is destroyed a burning floating wreck stays on the surface o a while (as these ships were usually devoid of crew and disabled long before they sunk)

 

[Goffterdom]

I wont give Boarding to every ships. And implement your sank system looks like a pain in the ass =D

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Increase the death time by half or double it so the ships sink slower. Problem solved.

 

[Goffterdom]

That's an idea.

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Thats what im here for.

 

[warman45]

you could also write a quick code,
when a unit dies if unit is = to (you're ship types here) spawn 3 debris at (random point x distance away from dying unit)

debris would be a unit with a timed life, and might also include some flames, combine this with a slow death and you got yourself a cool looking wreck.

P.S. i liked the ideas for this map, and had quite a few of my own that didn't quite fit, so i went and started my own game that focuses more on those ideas, so if anyone wants to see or help that's cool. it takes place from 1800 - 1900

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/map-development-202/imperialism-171388/

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

you could also write a quick code,
when a unit dies if unit is = to (you're ship types here) spawn 3 debris at (random point x distance away from dying unit)

debris would be a unit with a timed life, and might also include some flames, combine this with a slow death and you got yourself a cool looking wreck.

P.S. i liked the ideas for this map, and had quite a few of my own that didn't quite fit, so i went and started my own game that focuses more on those ideas, so if anyone wants to see or help that's cool. it takes place from 1800 - 1900

Link to the map thingy plox.

 

[SasuhKun]

Thanks Poseidon.

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Mhmm

 

[Coliandro]

Hey there,
First of all I'm a great fan of Lords of Europe and found this thread now, so I hope I can make some suggestions you take into consideration and help to improve the (hopefully soon) coming map.

Ships:
I think your ideas of adding some coast towns are good first of all, I just want a ship in E:TAoW that has an higher range when attacking landbuildings then 300, compared to LoE. I was thinking of a siege ship, maybe carrying catapults and later mortar ships, slow and need to be defended. Because it really annoyed me in LoE that I couldn't even attack towns near the coast, or just with 1 ship at a time. and it is kinda strange that a ship can fire 900 range into islands against units but only 300 on towns. Besides it would make ships more important, in LoE you could only take a few towns with ships, making them kinda useless.
Also, make a better counterpart for ships. In LoE it said ships counter each other, but all had same damagetype and same armortype, so it was basically attackmove behind the enemy front with no real tactic. Also, if you want to make some ships faster from their historic background and for tactical uses, make them noticeable faster, because in LoE the speed of the ships didn't give you much of an advantage because it didn't differ that much.

Alliances:
Please add an embassy, from where players can send ambassadors to other players to make alliances, maybe even an possibility to demand some tolls or non-attack-pacts. Of course this was possible in LoE too, but only over the game menu, which took A LOT of atmosphere from it ("hey let's ally" "how?" "ok first press f11 then click on this and this field etc ..."). To interact you shouldn't need to go to game menus etc., it should just go by some clicks in the game. Also you would finally really know when allied and when not, in LoE people could have just missclicked and cause a great battle even though you just allied each other.

Capital:
Just a simple point: Please make it impossible to re-build an capital. A capital should be the heart of a nation, from where it raises and falls, where the decisions come from and where you start to lead wars, forge alliances and so on. I think a building like that shouldn't be able to be simply rebuilt or even, like in LoE, bought as an item from a shop.

Victory conditions:
Make some clearer victory conditions. In LoE you had to conquer all towns on the map (well, at least i think), to finally win the game. But i couldn't really find "Victory conditions" in the quests or anywhere else. Also, add some additional possibilities to win.
Like: (you need only 1 to win)
- Destroy all enemy capitals
- Conquer all towns
- Destroy every unit and building of an enemy (like 1 basically)
and add them in the quests. Because if you're a noob you get quite lost in LoE, of course you just begin to conquer stuff and build an army etc., but you don't know what your final aim should be.

Modes:
Please add some modes. Of course the "classic" LoE mode should be the default one, meaning you can just do what you want, conquer, ally, unally etc.
But especially in pubs modes would be much fun and sometimes shorter games.
(Just some ideas, modes have to be typed during a certain countdown after start, otherwise default mode sets in):
-rt x (random teams, where x stands for the number of teams)
-fa (forever allies, meaning you can't change allies)
-sa x (start in age x)
-sr x y (start with ressourcs x and y (gold and wood))
-ktk (kill the king, every player gets a king he has to defend)
-fe x (fast expand, the player or team who conquers x towns first wins, of course this mode can be done with resources, armies etc too)

Of course you can add a ton more options or even mix them up with each other, i just wanted to show that some options to the default LoE could be cool.

Mercenaries:
Would be a nice idea too, some neutral camps from where you can hire special troops, maybe even specialized in their region. What also would be really cool is an neutral pirate bay in the ocean. The AI randomly sends ships to get player's ships, you could pay some protection money to buy some time until you get enough ships or order attacks on other players. Will be hard to balance and add, but it would be a great element. +maybe make an neutral trading sea organization like the ones in Anno (if you know the game, this guys have a historic background but i don't remember)

Please excuse any mistakes, English is not my native language.
And please don't dislike everything just because you don't agree in one point, comment everything by itself.
Best regards.

 

[SasuhKun]

I like this guy.

 

[PoseidonSeaGod]

Seconded, though I do believe I already put in a Siege ship designed to attack land. The Monitor I believe it is.

 

[SasuhKun]

You did? Wonderful! Without siege ships, it is REALLY hard to take out a turtled England.

 

[Coliandro]

Me again,
have some more thoughts about the game:

Ships:
I think you mentioned before that some nations have a ship as their special unit so I'd say give them a special ability as well, so they don't become simply a improved version of the other nations ships.
Like giving them the ability for a short speed boost, ram other ships to damage them, etc.

Special units in general:
I think all special units should have something "real" special about them, not only the name. In LoE every unit was basically an improved version of the standard ones. But this special units often have a big historic background, so making them more "special" would be quite easy. E. g. the hoplites from Greece could have an "Formation" ability, for each near other hoplite an hoplit gets bonus armor or damage something like that. (This would give them a nice "Sparta" feeling btw because little groups of them could do very well, but they get killed easy when surrounded)
I think there were some other special abilities mentioned before, just wanted to say it again.

Modes:
Just one additional mode which should even be in the default ETAoW:
There should only one nation be able to win. May sound as a matter of course but in LoE it often happened that a majority of players just allied each other and played a very boring game with the minority being without chance and just loosing. But the fact that only one can win would make the game more exciting, because then you know that ALL alliances are just temporarily, and you always have to mistrust your ally and even think of a time when break the alliance yourself (like using your ally as a meatshield in an battle and after he lost his army attack his capital and ally with the guy he lost his army too, but you can't trust him too etc. etc., this would give the game a lot more tactic and tension).
Of course when you add some modes where allies stay for the whole game, the players in a team should be able to win.

Btw is there already a Beta out or soon coming? If yes and you need some testers don't hesitate to ask me ^^.

Best regards

 

[SasuhKun]

Wow Coliandro, you really want to help Goff here. +rep from me

 

[Goffterdom]

Hey hey thanks Coliandro.

THere's no beta, not even a playable map =D

I didnt open World Edit for more than one week by the way -.-

It's hard guys...

I hope I will give you concrete informations soon.

 

[Chizume]

Nice to see you're still working with the project Goffterdom. I didn't really have the patience to read through 250 comments when every other is basically the wall of china with words (lol). But it sure looks like things are going well

Yours Truly,
Chizume

 

[SasuhKun]

It is ok, I didn't even had time to learn Jass... imagine then creating a new, awesome map. As long as it does not take 10 years, it should be okay XD


Check a map named Greece. I hate almost everything about it, but I gotta admit that the attack and defense types system is really well thought.

 

[Centreri]

Make capitals rebuildable, and don't make your tech level depend on them. Make losing a capital a bit hit in morale (if that exists) and income, but it should be possible to come back from fairly easily. Maybe make losing your capital make some towns declare independence?

Precedents? Well, Napoleon's invasion of Russia. And the USSR could probably have continued on without Moscow. I don't see why a capital is that important.

 

[Chizume]

When Nazi-Germany conquered Paris during WW2, all of France was pretty much conquered. It's the place where all leaders and such control the country. Just something to think of.

Yours,
Chizume

 

[Centreri]

I don't know the details, but either the French government was stupid enough to stay in Paris, or it had no chance of a military victory, or it just didn't want war.

You can implement that if your capital is conquered and you have no army, sure; but I see no reason to make the classic lure-them-in-and-attack that painful. After all, if you still have entire army, even if it's somewhere else, I see no reason why you can't continue on fighting and rebuild.

 

[Chizume]

"Base-aiming" is a common thing. Giving capitals too much importance for a successful gameplay will cause this to happen often. I do agree with your point.

Yours,
Chizume

 

[SasuhKun]

Make capitals rebuildable, and don't make your tech level depend on them. Make losing a capital a bit hit in morale (if that exists) and income, but it should be possible to come back from fairly easily. Maybe make losing your capital make some towns declare independence?

The last time I've read the 1st post, it said that the Age upgrades wouldn't upgrade the capital, but be a upgrade itself. So you keep everything pretty much, except military builders, which makes sense. If your power is not centralized anymore, mainly because of a war or something, you won't really be able to gather anyone else to build forts or something.