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Enable rep in Off-Topic

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Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

I mean come on, not like rep isn't totally abusable atm >_<

And I can't believe I've actually said this somehow. I disagree with my past self D:

If I rep someone I usually would do it because of either helping or lulzy post. And there's cool lulzy posts in ot and why not helpful ones too?
 

Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

Isnt that already the case?
Click to expand...
It is. Even though you'd prefer reps that you deserved, you will get rep from lulzy posts too. This is a modding community, and modding is pretty serious topic; you need to concentrate on what you are doing or you won't get far. So members here don't like the idea of lulzy posters just surpassing them, who do all the hard modding work. But, it's not that bad of an idea, as I said, we still can give non-sense rep, so the system is abusable even now. Giving rep in ot seems rational. What comes to the suspicious modders' to this, just think about it this way; if the social part of hive is more popular than modding part, why should we try to prevent some popular aspect of community? We should encourage those with positive effect on community, and punish those with negative one. One way of encouraging is simply giving rep with a comment along with it ;P

Still it wouldn't take out the fact that: how long does it take for modder to make something? A long time. How long does it take for lulzy poster to make something? Couple of seconds. Seems unfair, but think it this way; if you can get more attention and respect and fame in lesser time, wouldn't that be the favourable way? Good example is programming, as our devices grow more powerful, devs don't have to optimize that much anymore, thus taking relatively less time for the project to finish. They can get more done in less amount of time.

Because I would get sad for getting rep for troll and extra lulzy posts instead of helpful D:
Click to expand...
So you value the rep you get from important/helpful stuff you make. It's ok, but you are not judged by your rep count. People start to recognize your name and connect it to something, like; "oh he's the troll" (that's me XD) "oh he does all the cool GUI spells" "I loved his map" "he's good friend and always responds to me" "he's helped me a lot in WEHZ" and stuff like that. THAT is the real reputation behind you, not some stupid point system vBulletin has :/
 

Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

Pst, did you know it's possible to rep things in the Recycle Bin? xD
Click to expand...
It must be because the no rep in off topic - rule was added afterwards, not in day 1. So it's just a special rule for individual forum.
 

Dr Super Good

Dr Super Good

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
Level 64
Joined
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Messages
27,258
It was disabled because people were allocating >50% (closer to 90%) of all rep in the off topic and something else sections. Since reputation is meant to be what you do for the site to help people it kind of made it pointless since you could just post some garbage or troll the offtopic section and get more rep than someone who solves every problem people ask.

This is how people like Pyritie were able to accumulate so much reputation (early on, he later obtained most of it for more helpful reasons).
 

Gilles

Gilles

Gilles

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8,873
Dr Super Good said:
It was disabled because people were allocating >50% (closer to 90%) of all rep in the off topic and something else sections. Since reputation is meant to be what you do for the site to help people it kind of made it pointless since you could just post some garbage or troll the offtopic section and get more rep than someone who solves every problem people ask.

This is how people like Pyritie were able to accumulate so much reputation (early on, he later obtained most of it for more helpful reasons).
Click to expand...
Which is why 0 rep would work really well. It allows you to comment on things without actually adding to that score. Heck, I have mine disabled, but that doesn't mean I don't look at the rep I receive. I appreciate the comments people leave.
 

Dr Super Good

Dr Super Good

Dr Super Good

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Messages
27,258
Which is why 0 rep would work really well. It allows you to comment on things without actually adding to that score. Heck, I have mine disabled, but that doesn't mean I don't look at the rep I receive. I appreciate the comments people leave.
Click to expand...
It might not be that easy. Currently they set the permissions so that it is disabled, however granting 0 rep might not be a standard feature and require some modifications which are time consuming.
 

Gilles

Gilles

Gilles

Level 34
Joined
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8,873
Dr Super Good said:
It might not be that easy. Currently they set the permissions so that it is disabled, however granting 0 rep might not be a standard feature and require some modifications which are time consuming.
Click to expand...
I figured this might be the case, but until Ralle tells me it can't be done, I'll demand it!

Also, Hive 2.0. It's coming soon™.
 

N.Knight

N.Knight

N.Knight

Level 11
Joined
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Messages
548
Dr Super Good said:
It was disabled because people were allocating >50% (closer to 90%) of all rep in the off topic and something else sections. Since reputation is meant to be what you do for the site to help people it kind of made it pointless since you could just post some garbage or troll the offtopic section and get more rep than someone who solves every problem people ask.
Click to expand...

Methinks, this problem can be solved if you stop calling it 'Reputation'.
The very word adds a sense of high headedness in the person receiving it and also makes them hoard it. If you the change term to 'Thanks Points' or something the entire hoopla surrounding it will fizz out.

As for the kindly and helpful folks - give them a badge of honor\service, most will be content with that. Just my two cents.
 

Celaquil

Celaquil

Celaquil

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Level 36
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Messages
4,404
Just my two cents.
Click to expand...

Keep it up and soon we'll have 50.

_

About reintroducing rep to OT, I agree.

Whatever rep was originally intended to be, to me, it's always been about simply knowing
that someone appreciates what you do: Be that something you did, someone you helped,
something you said or something someone likes about you, it doesn't really matter.
It's merely all for good fun, and nice comments, it's harmless and playful.
That's why I think leniency is the way to go.

Also, about blank rep, as I understand it that function is currently reserved for
moderators to use in order to give people warnings, although I don't often use it as
such myself.
 

Boris_Spider

Boris_Spider

Boris_Spider

Level 14
Joined
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Messages
1,027
CakeMaster said:
How about all reps in off topic only count half for users, rounded down? 4 would be 2, 3 and 2 would be 1, then 1 wouldn't count at all.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't that defeat the point? Most users only give 1 rep; those who give more are admin/moderators or their unofficial assistants (not to be taken offensively, just in case of a misread).

//\\0o//\\
 

Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

I need some response to my long ass post.

There's no good reason to have it off, other than going super formal, which is needless for this small community
 

Boris_Spider

Boris_Spider

Boris_Spider

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1,027
jondrean said:
I need some response to my long ass post.

There's no good reason to have it off, other than going super formal, which is needless for this small community
Click to expand...

I've seen this debate many times since they shut it down, though your post is similar to a position I've posted a few times:

"Officially", reputation is a tracker of how much the forum benefits from a given user. Most people include (rightfully so) all resource submissions (maps/models/icons/spells/packs/skins/tools) as part of how the forum has benefited from the user; however, those are not the only contributions a user submits.

Example:
If another user's post (not the 'typical' resource available) amuses me, lifts my mood, or otherwise improves my day - I have benefited. I am a part of the forum (albeit a very small one), and as such the forum also benefits. Any other users that benefit, will further the benefit of the forum.
/Example

I'm sure the anti-rep in OT users will attack the logic in my statement (saying any one individual is negligible and thus the forum cannot benefit with the lightening of my mood). I'm not sure if they consider The Hive Workshop to be any more than the sum of the resources it's users have submitted. We users are also resources.

//\\oo//\\
 

Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

It's ridiculous when the staff says "this subject has been discussed many times" when in fact THEY DONT POST ANY ARGUMENTS ON THE THREADS DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT...

As I said week ago, dear staff:
I need some response to my long ass post
Click to expand...

*sigh* one of the reasons why I said:
jondrean said:
The list of mods seems rather unpleasant to me.... Hive's not as attractive as it used to be.
Click to expand...
 

Ralle

Ralle

Ralle

Owner
Level 79
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Messages
10,183
jondrean said:
It's ridiculous when the staff says "this subject has been discussed many times" when in fact THEY DONT POST ANY ARGUMENTS ON THE THREADS DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT...

As I said week ago, dear staff:


*sigh* one of the reasons why I said:
Click to expand...

It's not ridiculous. You may want to try and find these old threads and see what the staff had to say. Creating the same thread every month and expecting us to reply to it with long lists of great arguments gets tiresome...
 

Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

I don't have infinite amount of time, maybe someone could post some of the arguments ralle talked about here? When I get time for hive I'll first update my jass tutorial, then I can dig some old rep debate threads up.
 

Boris_Spider

Boris_Spider

Boris_Spider

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Ralle said:
It's not ridiculous. You may want to try and find these old threads and see what the staff had to say. Creating the same thread every month and expecting us to reply to it with long lists of great arguments gets tiresome...
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, is the position of the staff eroding then? If defending the ban is getting tiresome...

Watching this 'rep-war' since the ban has been similar to watching an old TV drama (mildly amusing).

jondrean said:
I don't have infinite amount of time, maybe someone could post some of the arguments ralle talked about here? When I get time for hive I'll first update my jass tutorial, then I can dig some old rep debate threads up.
Click to expand...
The staff maintain that they only view the submitted resources and the help-threads as areas worthy of adding to someones reputation. They don't view anything in OT to be worthy of rep. The reasons for why vary with each pro-ban user, but I doubt any of the reasons would be found to be anything other than opinion. However, it's the staff's site - their opinions have influence. The simplest answer to your query is: they wanted it so.

//\\0o//\\
 

Celaquil

Celaquil

Celaquil

Patron
Level 36
Joined
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Messages
4,404
It's ridiculous when the staff says "this subject has been discussed many times" when in fact THEY DONT POST ANY ARGUMENTS ON THE THREADS DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT...
Click to expand...

It is curious how you make such a statement when not a single staff member has
said that during the course of this thread. If anything, your excessive capital letter
usage simply discourages the staff from listening to what you say.

That all said, I find this even more curious:

THEY DONT POST ANY ARGUMENTS ON THE THREADS
Click to expand...

Let me quote my previous post in this thread:

About reintroducing rep to OT, I agree.

Whatever rep was originally intended to be, to me, it's always been about simply knowing
that someone appreciates what you do: Be that something you did, someone you helped,
something you said or something someone likes about you, it doesn't really matter.
It's merely all for good fun, and nice comments, it's harmless and playful.
That's why I think leniency is the way to go.

Also, about blank rep, as I understand it that function is currently reserved for
moderators to use in order to give people warnings, although I don't often use it as
such myself.
Click to expand...

Am I not staff, then? >.>

Furthermore, as you can see, I'm actually pro rep in OT.
 

Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

your excessive capital letter
usage simply discourages the staff from listening to what you say.
Click to expand...
you've hidden a claim "you should encourage the staff to listening to what you say" in your statement. why should i encourage people - who i expect not to be cooperative to me - to cooperate with me? that's like ending a long time dispute between someone, sounds.. mature, ugh! disgusting thought... :S

That all said, I find this even more curious:

...

Am I not staff, then? >.>
Click to expand...
I missed your post, I must've just quickly glanced through the page..

About reintroducing rep to OT, I agree.

Whatever rep was originally intended to be, to me, it's always been about simply knowing
that someone appreciates what you do: Be that something you did, someone you helped,
something you said or something someone likes about you, it doesn't really matter.
It's merely all for good fun, and nice comments, it's harmless and playful.
That's why I think leniency is the way to go.

Also, about blank rep, as I understand it that function is currently reserved for
moderators to use in order to give people warnings, although I don't often use it as
such myself.
Click to expand...

This is kind of my thought in the past of this thread:
So you value the rep you get from important/helpful stuff you make. It's ok, but you are not judged by your rep count. People start to recognize your name and connect it to something, like; "oh he's the troll" (that's me XD) "oh he does all the cool GUI spells" "I loved his map" "he's good friend and always responds to me" "he's helped me a lot in WEHZ" and stuff like that. THAT is the real reputation behind you, not some stupid point system vBulletin has :/
Click to expand...

If I were to make up some possible arguments those who are against this are to say;
1. "Rep isn't meant to be for lulzy posts"
2. "What's the value of rep if people get it from trolling?"
3. "You're a low rep user, ofc you want to have more rep easily"¨
4. "You should respect the decision staff makes, what if everyone bragged about every decision staff has made?"
5. "Having rep off of ot helps to keep the atmosphere less tense"
6. "There's a reason it was disable in ot in the past" (I've still not found those ones)

1. My quote solves that
2. That too, rep isn't the real reputation you resemble, it's your name itself
3. Would me disabling my rep bring rep back to ot? If it would I'd disable it
4. Staff isn't perfect
5. I need explanations to back this up
6. I have no infinte time to find these all, but I could bet staff has made a lot of juicy arguments + the original reason of the disabling.
 

Rui

Rui

Rui

Level 41
Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
7,550
All or most about reputation

Keiji said:
It is curious how you make such a statement when not a single staff member has
said that during the course of this thread. If anything, your excessive capital letter
usage simply discourages the staff from listening to what you say.
Click to expand...
One would trust staff members to be above that, however.

I do agree it's not entirely true they haven't made statements concerning reputation, but they have also been presented counter-arguments to those statements, which, in turn, received no replies. You were one of the ones to point this out, by the way.

Keiji said:
Am I not staff, then? >.>
(...)
Click to expand...
I might have accidentally blown your cover? D;

Seriously though, you are one with the people, Keiji. Everyone knows that the staff knows it too, and this predicament undermines the value of your word-- I mean, only as far as the officiality of that word goes! :clol:

jondrean said:
you've hidden a claim "you should encourage the staff to listening to what you say" in your statement. why should i encourage people - who i expect not to be cooperative to me - to cooperate with me?
Click to expand...
Because if you don't, you'll (tend to) speak in a way that sets off the perfect environment for failure of getting your point across (and frequently overall communication), such as the capital letters Keiji pointed out. Although, like I have said, staff members should be above this, the most—if not all—of them just... aren't.
If your objective is just to sound irreverent though... then you're one of my guys! Viva la revolución! :goblin_yeah:


Old, but significant literature.
Also, less important and related, "http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/site-discussion-97/reputation-history-accessible-feasible-235264/".

NOTES:
[a] — I should note that I don't hold many of the opinions I expressed there, off-topic and otherwise D; Rather, I'll just take back everything I said. Lol.



So I've spent my entire evening summing up most about reputation since 2008.

The history


Reputation was created with the intent to award modding enterprises and helping in the World Editor Help Zone (and friends) forum[1], but could be handed by users as well.
While some views seemed to (partially) agree with the initial idea[2][3], there were other understandings of the system's role: an activity indicator[4][5], a popularity meter[6], or a general social-oriented tool[7][8], or even that it meant nothing[9][10]. On the criticism to the flaws of the system, Steel_Stallion made an analogy between reputation and a currency system, claiming it stimulated corruption. [11] (JetFangInferno held a mixed perspective of the aforementioned[12]).
Given the existence of negative reputation and how it has been used for years to give out punishments, there is also a lack of explicit, technical parallelism between reputation and infractions [13] (the_wand_mirror made a suggestion on that[14]).
At some point, the administration realized the original idea had been twisted. Perhaps in an attempt to solve this, reputation in Off-Topic was disabled, but this event was apparently not announced[15]. The other posts of the same thread show an overall negative reception to this measure. Some (Keiji[16], for example), felt that there it was an adjustment or redefinition of the meaning of reputation, though the issue was it hadn't been understood well in the first place. Regardless, the measure could be circumvented and did little to address the problem. Most posts in "http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/site-discussion-97/what-reputation-254840/" cover this. I should emphasize the criticism in the opinions expressed by Keiji, Linaze and, with all the immodesty in the world, my own. Particularly, this, this and these.

Identifying the problem(s)

Given the design of the system, there is an obvious flaw, which I pointed out here. Allow me to reformulate: «If you want people not to use something in a way other than that which you idealized, you shouldn't allow them.» (Hakeem labeled it the principle of varying principle[17]). Also, Archian's post does not specify how negative reputation is to be interpreted[1], even though it was later defined in the Reputation FAQ. A tangential problem, the graphics chosen to represent misbehavior could be interpreted as being cool[18]. The mistake is obvious: it is something that should be given for certain reasons, but can be given for ANY reason. The interface for reputation awarding is the first sign: it is a short text descriptor. If the interface had been well designed—not to fix the problem, but to hint at reputation's correct usage—, it would have a list with two radio buttons representing two choices:
1. This user's resource is useful (or a variant).
2. This post has helped me solve my problem.​
The origin of the problem should be evident by now: it stems from using vBulletin's original reputation system unmodified, whose purpose is wider[18] and attempting to build an abstract system on top of it with no software support whatsoever or, better resuming, attempting to implement an abstract system with the wrong software support, including the interface, and no higher authority in charge of overviewing its use ("reputation moderator"?).

Solution

Solu9's thread shows how several people have come to acknowledge the fragilities and flaws of the system. The proposals are notable and the Hive 2's future system should build upon it.

Phew, took a lot of hours to write this. Copyright of Rui, all rights reserved. Lol.
 

Celaquil

Celaquil

Celaquil

Patron
Level 36
Joined
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Messages
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you've hidden a claim "you should encourage the staff to listening to what you say" in your statement. why should i encourage people - who i expect not to be cooperative to me - to cooperate with me? that's like ending a long time dispute between someone, sounds.. mature, ugh! disgusting thought... :S
Click to expand...

No. I don't hide statements. I don't speak between the lines, I speak straight from the
gut, no matter what you think I do. My mere point wasn't that you "should" do it
differently, simply that your current conveyance of the message doesn't help the case
you are currently building. Be frank, you wouldn't have made this thread if you didn't
think it could change things, and thus, the way you go about expressing yourself
either helps or doesn't help your case, simple as that.

Take it as a helpful pointer.

I missed your post, I must've just quickly glanced through the page..
Click to expand...

That's no excuse.

One would trust staff members to be above that, however.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree.

And I don't see why you feel the need of stating this. As I pointed out previously, I'm not saying it is the case,
merely that it might be the case. I can't read the minds of my fellow staff members.
 

Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

Hiding claims is just normal for everyone o_O

"That's no excuse." if i dont see something how can i respond to it? >_<
 
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