Create a Game Engine based on WC3 Map Editor by Hive?

Level 2
Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Messages
5
It's been written about quite a lot in this forum. So I though why doesn't Hiveworkshops staff get together with the community and we together create our own game engine & editor for us all that's based on the wc3 world editor? So we can make standalone games instead. I bet a lot of people would pay for that to happen.
It's of course much easier said than done, but it would be a dream come true. "The Hive Editor" or something noice like that.
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
If you want a nice little Architecture for it, I had come up with this after many cups of Tea :p

  • Character Engine
  • Event Engine
  • Lighting Engine
  • Model Engine
  • Physics Engine
  • Sound Engine
  • Terrain Engine

It always bugged me that you can't make Models in the World Editor! That should always come with it. Same with actually MAKING your own Sounds!
 
Level 3
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
12
So I though why doesn't Hiveworkshops staff get together with the community and we together create our own game engine & editor for us all that's based on the wc3 world editor?

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I believe you're greatly underestimating the amount of time and effort required to accomplish something like this, even from just an engineering standpoint, not to mention art assets.

You could accomplish all of this, if not more, with any of the commercial (or even free, open-source) game engines. True, there's no convenience of Battle.net to allow easy distribution and no huge asset library to use, but it's still better than nothing.
 

pyf

pyf

Level 31
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,989
[...] why doesn't Hiveworkshops staff get together with the community and we together create our own game engine & editor for us all that's based on the wc3 world editor? [...]
It's of course much easier said than done, but it would be a dream come true. "The Hive Editor" or something noice like that.
If that 'we together' includes you, then make your dream come true and go ahead.
:wink:

Good luck.
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
I don't mean to sound condescending, but I believe you're greatly underestimating the amount of time and effort required to accomplish something like this, even from just an engineering standpoint, not to mention art assets.

You could accomplish all of this, if not more, with any of the commercial (or even free, open-source) game engines. True, there's no convenience of Battle.net to allow easy distribution and no huge asset library to use, but it's still better than nothing.

Oh come on!

That's the fun of Engineering. To take apart something, and just simply see WHO can muck it up into something useable and amazing!

A TEST. Of who can mod the Software or Machine the MOST, and turn it into a completely different thing. 3rd Person Over-The-Shoulder Camera Action Game....piloting Gyrocopters, controlling Horse Reins and stuff in a Lordaeron jungle chase or something...from a pack of Lich as Jaina or something!
 

pyf

pyf

Level 31
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,989
... except the OP is talking about creating our own game engine & editor for us all that's based on the wc3 world editor.


@Hanman69: according to you, what would the features and specs be, for such a project to be considered a viable one by the WC3 community? (programming language, scripting, supported OS(es), required computer hardware...)

As a rough guideline, here is a partial list of already existing game engines, so you can document yourself further on the subject:
List of game engines - Wikipedia
 
Level 3
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
12
That's the fun though!

Is it?

What's wrong with that? :p

Nothing, it's just a bit too ambitious.

Let's look at it from a working persons' standpoint - generally, people with the skills required to make something like this already work full-time, and would probably burn out if they'd get home only to work more, not to mention social life and family responsibilities.

For example, I write C++ for a living. After 8 hours of work, it's really hard to focus on another project once I get home. Hell, it's hard to focus even on smaller hobby projects. Look at this crappy raycaster:

gameplay1.gif


That took five months, and it's just barely 5,000 lines of code. Now imagine making something as complex as Warcraft III engine and tools.

You'd think throwing more people at a project would make things go faster, but it doesn't really work that way, especially when you're dealing with a project where everyone works for free on their own volition. Also, the more people you have, the greater organisational effort is required. Issue tracking software, collaboration boards, version control systems, and so on. Things add up, and suddenly it's not a hobby project anymore and becomes work instead.

There are projects which have successfully pulled this off (Battle for Wesnoth, for instance), but they are much smaller in scale and more self-contained than what is proposed in this thread. Also, they are spearheaded by actual developers who bring substantial contribution to the table rather than just ideas. In the end, ideas are worthless if there's no implementation.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to make this happen, by all means - do it. I just think it's a bit unrealistic to expect that someone will do it for you. If you want to see some change, take point.
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
Is it?



Nothing, it's just a bit too ambitious.

Let's look at it from a working persons' standpoint - generally, people with the skills required to make something like this already work full-time, and would probably burn out if they'd get home only to work more, not to mention social life and family responsibilities.

For example, I write C++ for a living. After 8 hours of work, it's really hard to focus on another project once I get home. Hell, it's hard to focus even on smaller hobby projects. Look at this crappy raycaster:

gameplay1.gif


That took five months, and it's just barely 5,000 lines of code. Now imagine making something as complex as Warcraft III engine and tools.

You'd think throwing more people at a project would make things go faster, but it doesn't really work that way, especially when you're dealing with a project where everyone works for free on their own volition. Also, the more people you have, the greater organisational effort is required. Issue tracking software, collaboration boards, version control systems, and so on. Things add up, and suddenly it's not a hobby project anymore and becomes work instead.

There are projects which have successfully pulled this off (Battle for Wesnoth, for instance), but they are much smaller in scale and more self-contained than what is proposed in this thread. Also, they are spearheaded by actual developers who bring substantial contribution to the table rather than just ideas. In the end, ideas are worthless if there's no implementation.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to make this happen, by all means - do it. I just think it's a bit unrealistic to expect that someone will do it for you. If you want to see some change, take point.

Then don't come on board for the project :p.

No one is making you.
 

pyf

pyf

Level 31
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,989
Last edited:
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
Everything. Plus, any serious attempt to undertake such an herculean task may imho very well get destroyed/voided by the WC3 community itself.

@Hanman69:
For the record, here is a tiny bit of information about the history of the 0 A.D. project
0 A.D. | A free, open-source game of ancient warfare
(note: still unfinished after more than 15 years, fyi)

Ah, I forgot what this is like to feel.

Always remember, an Engineer must tackle through all. You are as hands on as the man of War. You just battle a different battle. Every day, a new problem, a new riddle; a new CONUNDRUM!

You just make a Compiler (you can check out what they call "The Dragon Book" on Compiler Design), to convert from human code instruction into Machine Language, and you design some simple Modules like are already there. Just simple Stages they call them (when you have a new Window in a Program that has the Window Bar at the top with the X Button, etc., or can be seen in the Task Bar at bottom), Event Editor, Terrain Editor, etc. Set up Panels going either Vertical or Horizontal to add your Buttons to, some simple Flyout Menus, Dropdown Menus, Checkbox Lists when needed (those will be less common).

But basically, you have a little section to do your JASS or whatever language you'd want (we could call it WSL, Warcraft Scripting Language). Write to some simple files for splitting the Map Archive (I learned this back when trying to deprotect maps :p) so that it can be read by Warcraft (there's no actual rule even that it has to be the exact same as the current one, already Map Protectors will completely change it for their map) with a .wtg file for Triggers, .w3u for Units, .w3d for Doodads, .w3i for Items, etc.

You'd normally split up these different things in a team, and follow proper Project Lifecycle they call it; where you don't just jump into construction.

Storyboard > Requirements > Blueprint > Construction > Prototyping > Insertion > Maintenance!
 
Level 3
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
12
Always remember, an Engineer must tackle through all. You are as hands on as the man of War. You just battle a different battle. Every day, a new problem, a new riddle; a new CONUNDRUM!

That's what they usually tell you in job interviews when offering lower than average pay as if work was a reward unto itself.

You just make a Compiler (you can check out what they call "The Dragon Book" on Compiler Design), to convert from human code instruction into Machine Language...

You don't, because well-established compilers already exist. Also, I don't think you understand what the Dragon Book is actually about.

...and you design some simple Modules like are already there. Just simple Stages they call them (when you have a new Window in a Program that has the Window Bar at the top with the X Button, etc., or can be seen in the Task Bar at bottom), Event Editor, Terrain Editor, etc. Set up Panels going either Vertical or Horizontal to add your Buttons to, some simple Flyout Menus, Dropdown Menus, Checkbox Lists when needed (those will be less common).

You've never really done any programming, have you? :)
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
That's what they usually tell you in job interviews when offering lower than average pay as if work was a reward unto itself.



You don't, because well-established compilers already exist. Also, I don't think you understand what the Dragon Book is actually about.



You've never really done any programming, have you? :)

My friend, I'm not sure what to say here. I don't know if you're trying to deliberately fish something from me, if you don't have an interest; you don't need to say it. Why would you think that?


P.S. And I must say though, it is true that work in and of itself is the greater reward always, it's what keeps us going.


EDIT: And if the Compilers exist, how do we make our own then?
 
Last edited:

pyf

pyf

Level 31
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,989
[...] You just make a Compiler (you can check out what they call "The Dragon Book" on Compiler Design), to convert from human code instruction into Machine Language, and you design some simple Modules like are already there. [...]
Are you talking about anything related to reverse engineering and/or static recompilation?

[...] You'd normally split up these different things in a team, and follow proper Project Lifecycle they call it; where you don't just jump into construction.

Storyboard > Requirements > Blueprint > Construction > Prototyping > Insertion > Maintenance!
In hopes the layout of the OpenAge Modding API will be an eye-opener for some:
openage dev updates

... and we haven't even scratched the surface yet, about the many complexities of creating a game engine!


@Hanman69:
Do you think Blizzard would agree that one reuses any of their assets with any concurrent game engine? And what do you think of the (defunct) Freecraft project? Also, considering the warm welcome that WarCraft: Armies of Azeroth had on THW, do you think that WC3 in a different game engine would be considered a viable project by the WC3 modding community? And last but not least, what are your thoughts regarding the reactions about this thread, which is about a fan-made Tech Demo as a Proof-of-concept only?
 
Last edited:
Level 3
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
12
Freecraft did live on, in a way - through Stratagus project. There is also a fork called Wargus, and AFAIK Blizzard hasn't taken it down even though it uses Warcraft 2 assets. Whether or not this is legal is beyond my scope, but it's worth looking into.
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
Are you talking about anything related to reverse engineering and/or static recompilation?


In hopes the layout of the OpenAge Modding API will be an eye-opener for some:
openage dev updates

... and we haven't even scratched the surface yet, about the many complexities of creating a game engine!


@Hanman69:
Do you think Blizzard would agree that one reuses any of their assets with any concurrent game engine? And what do you think of (defunct) Freecraft project? Also, considering the warm welcome that WarCraft: Armies of Azeroth had on THW, do you think that WC3 in a different game engine would be considered a viable project by the WC3 modding community? And last but not least, what are your thoughts regarding the reactions about this thread, which is about a fan-made Tech Demo as a Proof-of-concept only?

I am sorry, I do not understand what you're talking about.

Can you reword it clearer?

EDIT: Forget these other links, focus on the subject. If you don't know how to do the task, you can ask for help elsewhere.

Freecraft did live on, in a way - through Stratagus project. There is also a fork called Wargus, and AFAIK Blizzard hasn't taken it down even though it uses Warcraft 2 assets. Whether or not this is legal is beyond my scope, but it's worth looking into.

Fork?
 
Last edited:

pyf

pyf

Level 31
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,989
Freecraft did live on, in a way - through Stratagus project. There is also a fork called Wargus, and AFAIK Blizzard hasn't taken it down even though it uses Warcraft 2 assets. Whether or not this is legal is beyond my scope, but it's worth looking into.
Wargus is the Stratagus game engine using scripts along with converted WC2 assets, while War1gus is the Stratagus game engine using scripts along with converted WC assets. One has to own a copy of the game(s) to convert the assets with the provided converter(s). None of these two projects try to exactly replicate the internal mechanics and gameplay of said two games.

Of course, other assets and scripts may be used to create other 2D RTS games for the Stratagus engine.

My point here is that Blizzard axed the Freecraft project in 2003.
From what I remember reading back in the early 2000s, Freecraft was not worth the download.

[...] EDIT: Forget these other links, focus on the subject. If you don't know how to do the task, you can ask for help elsewhere.
@EggPooPoo: :huh: I am on-topic.
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
Wargus is the Stratagus game engine using scripts along with converted WC2 assets, while War1gus is the Stratagus game engine using scripts along with converted WC assets. One has to own a copy of the game(s) to convert the assets with the provided converter(s). None of these two projects try to exactly replicate the internal mechanics and gameplay of said two games.

Of course, other assets and scripts may be used to create other 2D RTS games for the Stratagus engine.

My point here is that Blizzard axed the Freecraft project in 2003.
From what I remember reading back in the early 2000s, Freecraft was not worth the download.


@EggPooPoo: :huh: I am on-topic.

It actually isn't, if you want to help the project, post here.

If you wish to advise the maker otherwise, you can do that on his profile.
 

pyf

pyf

Level 31
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,989
Are you talking about anything related to reverse engineering and/or static recompilation?
I am sorry, I do not understand what you're talking about.
- Reverse engineering - Wikipedia
- Binary translation - Wikipedia

It actually isn't, if you want to help the project, post here.

If you wish to advise the maker otherwise, you can do that on his profile.
There is no project at all imho. All we have here atm is a casual visitor who imho happens to also be a dreamer, and who imho has no idea what an amount of work it takes to create a game engine. Even worse, he bets a lot of people would pay for such a new game engine & editor based on the wc3 world editor, which would ultimately allow to make standalone games instead. Therefore, he does not even take into account the fact that Blizzard may not like such an idea, to begin with.

I am actually helping this project idea, by providing clues and references about other such projects, and how they have been successful (or not) over time. Such monumental tasks take 80% thinking/planning/discussing/designing/making deals with, and only 20% programming, if one wants to do them the right way. And it takes years to complete, while avoiding any legal hurdles all along as much as possible.


@Hanman69: so, care to be more specific about your idea? Have you considered any of the practical aspects that I have mentioned above? (note: more coming!). And btw, how can you be so sure that anyone would pay any sum of money for it to happen / support / buy in the end? Now, don't you know the WC3 modding community is more and more broke ? Hey, after all, they would not pay 30 Euros in 2019 for a game which cost 100 Euros in 2003. Any thoughts about this too?
:xxd:

Okay, so where is the project prototype and the GitHub repository?
More importantly, where is all the thinking ahead?
 
Last edited:
Level 3
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
12
That's not the phase he's in.

This is a STORYBOARD. Was that not clear?

So essentially, there is no project, then.

And no one who actually is serious will use those Hub subscription nonsenses.

What?

GitHub is a service for hosting Git repositories and is often regarded as industry standard for any sort of collaboration projects with software engineering involved.

You'd know that if you had any experience with such projects whatsoever. That's a problem because you seem to form rather strong opinions on things you barely know anything about.

With comments like this, you're not showing how much you know, but the opposite - you're just putting your lack of knowledge on display. Based on your writing style, you're either very young or inexperienced, or maybe both. Whatever the case, a project of this scale is way beyond your scope and it shows.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'd advise you to take a step back, and if you really want to accomplish something, try something simpler first. Rome wasn't built in a day. Also, I'd seriously suggest doing more thorough research before calling something "nonsense".

And if you really, really like this particular project idea, ask yourself this - what can you do to make this project happen? Are you a capable engineer? Are you a decent artist?

When visiting job fairs I am often approached by self-proclaimed entrepreneurs who have "great" app ideas and need someone to implement them. When asked how much they're willing to invest, they often say "nothing, but I'm willing to offer part of the profit if it works out".

We have a name for those kind of people - Idea Guys. An Idea Guy is a person who can contribute absolutely nothing to the project but ideas. Ideas, however, in the real world, are completely worthless - everyone has them. They're low-effort and cheap. It's not the ideas that matter, but the skill to implement them. Are you and Idea Guy, or can you bring something substantial to the table?
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
So essentially, there is no project, then.



What?

GitHub is a service for hosting Git repositories and is often regarded as industry standard for any sort of collaboration projects with software engineering involved.

You'd know that if you had any experience with such projects whatsoever. That's a problem because you seem to form rather strong opinions on things you barely know anything about.

With comments like this, you're not showing how much you know, but the opposite - you're just putting your lack of knowledge on display. Based on your writing style, you're either very young or inexperienced, or maybe both. Whatever the case, a project of this scale is way beyond your scope and it shows.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'd advise you to take a step back, and if you really want to accomplish something, try something simpler first. Rome wasn't built in a day. Also, I'd seriously suggest doing more thorough research before calling something "nonsense".

And if you really, really like this particular project idea, ask yourself this - what can you do to make this project happen? Are you a capable engineer? Are you a decent artist?

When visiting job fairs I am often approached by self-proclaimed entrepreneurs who have "great" app ideas and need someone to implement them. When asked how much they're willing to invest, they often say "nothing, but I'm willing to offer part of the profit if it works out".

We have a name for those kind of people - Idea Guys. An Idea Guy is a person who can contribute absolutely nothing to the project but ideas. Ideas, however, in the real world, are completely worthless - everyone has them. They're low-effort and cheap. It's not the ideas that matter, but the skill to implement them. Are you and Idea Guy, or can you bring something substantial to the table?

It's called a Filing Cabinet.
 

pyf

pyf

Level 31
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,989
You just make a Compiler (you can check out what they call "The Dragon Book" on Compiler Design)
For documentation purposes:
- Principles of Compiler Design - Wikipedia
- Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools - Wikipedia

@EggPooPoo:
Are you referring to the 1977 edition?

When projects diverge, the offshoot is often called a fork.
@EggPooPoo:
Fyi:
Fork (software development) - Wikipedia

This is a STORYBOARD. [...]
... imho it is not even close to that atm.

[...] no one who actually is serious will use those Hub subscription nonsenses.
By the power of the sacred floppy disk and of COBOL I cast you out of this body Andreas!
By the power of the sacred floppy disk and of COBOL I cast you out of this body Andreas!
By the power of the sacred floppy disk and of COBOL I cast you out of this body Andreas!
:ogre_hurrhurr:

GitHub is a service for hosting Git repositories and is often regarded as industry standard for any sort of collaboration projects with software engineering involved. [...]
It's called a Filing Cabinet.
@EggPooPoo:
Fyi:
GitHub - Wikipedia

... and *this* is a filing cabinet:
Filing cabinet - Wikipedia
 
Last edited:
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131

Okay, I'm done talking to you, as you're derailing a thread with nonsense hatred for some unknown reason.

But, for sake of this question, I will answer that I tried to hunt for the older one in the 70's I believe, yes. But it's harder to find. You can order it from some places. The 2nd Edition shouldn't be so bad though, but 70's had better stuff.
 

pyf

pyf

Level 31
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,989
'Principles of Computer Design' matches the information you yourself provided (quoting you: "you can check out what they call "The Dragon Book" on Compiler Design"). As you can see, I checked it out.
 
At the moment, from what I deduce across this thread, there's not much to say. There are many ambitious projects out there, but this one is on a grand scale that I'm quite afraid of it being manage-able. This kind of project requires strong coordination and high dedication, or it might fall apart pretty fast (faster than Ominous Horizon and their extreme ambitions).

Let's take it to a smaller scale first. Some questions before starting a real serious project, especially this large:
1. How much money available for funding? Are there potential investors?
2. How long estimated time of the project?
3. What skills existing team already have? What are missing?
4. What is the market size? How much of these potential market users will be converted to actual users?

If you discard 1, then expect time to be on the unfriendly side.

There are some serious scale game editor making across Hive board already actually if people do their search beforehand:
I made a game editor that supports 50+ concurrent players (from 2008 to 2018 before being usable at public scale)
[Discussion] - Recreating a Warcraft-3/Starcraft-2 like editor (2015 thread, but nothing usable for editor department from what I found)
[Development] - Presenting my project! Engine for making games like WC3 custom maps (from 2017 to current, still in development phase)

Pretty much the major problem trying to replicate world editor of Warcraft 3 starts with copyright issues that could bite one in the ass if we're not careful. After that, there's the team problem (a fair note, more programmer != faster development), like communication and standards (this one is pretty challenging to agree on). If one abandon teams, then the time will be another layer of challenge that is difficult to tackle.
 
Last edited:
Level 3
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
12
Also, I'm pretty sure people would have a hard time with rallying around a person who...
  • can't take constructive criticism
  • lashes out at anyone who provides information he doesn't like
  • forms strong opinions on technology he's never used and literature he's never read
Leadership by example is a thing.
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
At the moment, from what I deduce across this thread, there's not much to say. There are many ambitious projects out there, but this one is on a grand scale that I'm quite afraid of it being manage-able. This kind of project requires strong coordination and high dedication, or it might fall apart pretty fast.

No.

Let's take it to a smaller scale first. Some questions before starting a real serious project, especially this large:
1. How much money available for funding? Are there potential investors?

Wrong.

4. What is the market size? How much of these potential market users will be converted to actual users?

Then why are you on a Warcraft 3 forum?

Pretty much the major problem trying to replicate world editor of Warcraft 3 starts with copyright issues that could bite one in the ass if we're not careful. After that, there's the team problem (a fair note, more programmer != faster development), like communication and standards (this one is pretty challenging to agree on). If one abandon teams, then the time will be another layer of challenge that is difficult to tackle.

If the proper Project Modelling is followed, this doesn't happen.

I am getting a great look at IT today though, as well as the Warcraft community. Did you come here SPECIFICALLY to troll? I'm quite sure you did.

But in short, nobody knows how to do anything in Business now.
 
Ah, nice of such accusation. Even the questions I brought up get sweep aside.

Please show me an actual work rather than an idea then. This idea is already repeated times and times (linked in my previous post), and they realize the grand scale of it.
Business without money? Unless you have no financial problems, this will be a major thing in the long run.
Then why are you on a Warcraft 3 forum?
This forum does not constitute much for potential users since most of them are inactive.

If the proper Project Modelling is followed, this doesn't happen.

I am getting a great look at IT today though, as well as the Warcraft community. Did you come here SPECIFICALLY to troll? I'm quite sure you did.

But in short, nobody knows how to do anything in Business now.

"Proper Project Modelling", which model you would even consider "proper"?

I'm annoyed with how you being elitist to critics the others were thrown on the project. They have a serious concern about the development and brushed aside as trolling. If you want to call me a troll, go ahead. I hope you won't regret not giving a fair share of others' concerns about this. Your last statement shows how much you looked down on others, to be honest.
 
Level 5
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
131
Business without money? Unless you have no financial problems, this will be a major thing in the long run.

Won't say more on that subject, but it's part of becoming an adult.

This forum does not constitute much for potential users since most of them are inactive.

You still are expected to be polite to people anywhere, whether the street corner is empty or not.

"Proper Project Modelling", which model you would even consider "proper"?

You will learn this type of thinking in any kind of corporate-fueled post secondary program.

I'm annoyed with how you being elitist to critics the others were thrown on the project. They have a serious concern about the development and brushed aside as trolling. If you want to call me a troll, go ahead. I hope you won't regret not giving a fair share of others' concerns about this. Your last statement shows how much you looked down on others, to be honest.

Serious concern? It's more like a serious need to attack a person down. A simple skipping the thread would suffice, I really don't see how charging a person and drilling at them to try and destroy them because you were having a bad day is anything mature or "development" related in a project.

I don't look down on anyone who's innocently asking the public's idea. That type of creative mind is something to aspire to, not sneer at. And those that do scorn them, to them I look down upon.
 
Last edited:
You still are expected to be polite to people anywhere, whether the street corner is empty or not.
But his question was about the market size, not whether you're in the mood to be impolite.
You will learn this type of thinking in any kind of corporate-fueled post secondary program.
Someone's taken a solemn vow never to answer a question. I see you. :)

It's more like a serious need to attack a person down.
If you feel attacked all the time, even without attackers, you should seek help.

I really don't see how charging a person and drilling at them to try and destroy them
Questions are part of discourse, and equating them to destruction means you're not ready to talk to people.
 
Top