Community Thoughts on Purpose of Resource Section

[Kyrbi0]

Title & Poll says it all. We've talked about this for years, it feels like, but somehow no one ever thought to just ask.

And yes I get it, Hive is not a democracy. But for the decision-makers like @Ralle I know it can be useful to really know where the community stands on certain issues. And there's no better way to figure that out than with a Poll.

You can change your Vote because hey, people change their mind sometimes. Listen to others & consider their viewpoint.


(P.S. Ralle, this could get some real traction if it got it's own site-wide banner/notification. Couldn't hurt; just a thought.)

 

[Footman16]

Truth be told I think there's elements of both. I don't think it needs to be completely binary.

 

[Chaosy]

How about my third option, anarchy

 

[Kyrbi0]

It's not a binary; however the goals & methods for one are antithetical to the other. That's why I said "PRIMARILY".

 

[loktar]

How about a curated emporium?

 

[Kyrbi0]

Well sure. By it's very nature (reviewers, mods, approved/rejected) it is curated. I think the new system unveiled by Archian recently will also go a long way towards keeping similar kinds of resources together/giving assets their proper dues.

But I think we have tried for too long to have it both ways, and have had issues stemming from the fact that the two major camps want different things out of the database.

I simply think it valuable to "get a read" on the community's general opinion on this matter. It can only help the Moderators make their decision.

And heck, if the new system/move to Xenforo solve the issues? Awexome, great, no need to decide. But until then...

 

[Footman16]

But I think we have tried for too long to have it both ways, and have had issues stemming from the fact that the two major camps want different things out of the database.

This is just too accurate lol. I've noticed people seem to have very VERY different ideas about what they want the resource sections to be and people seem to fall anywhere between two extremes.

Whilst I misread the initial poll I feel like it should be easily possible for this forum to accommodate both camps if there was maybe a little wiggle room on some issues considering how diverse and flexible the site is in terms of being able to create sections and subforums. For example I've noticed the quality purists seem completely horrified at the notion of any resources they deem subpar to be allowed anywhere near the resource section fearing it demeans or cheapens their art. It's not a view I can understand personally but it at least seems to weigh on some people's minds.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

I'd vote for an additional option where it'd mention a bit of both but that option isn't able to be selected so i'll leave a comment instead.

 

[Chaosy]

I'd vote for an additional option where it'd mention a bit of both but that option isn't able to be selected so i'll leave a comment instead.

I feel like these two sides are too far apart that you cannot find a middle ground that actually makes sense for both.
If we have Nuclear Bomb enthusiast on one side and peace lover at the other, how can there be a middleground?
Only allow nukes on mondays? small nukes ones?

 

[Tal'Rarity]

I feel like these two sides are too far apart that you cannot find a middle ground that actually makes sense for both.
If we have Nuclear Bomb enthusiast on one side and peace lover at the other, how can there be a middleground?
Only allow nukes on mondays? small nukes ones?

Isn't that middle ground what we have in our world already?

 

[Chaosy]

Yes and would you consider that good? I wouldn't

 

[Wazzz]

I'm all for quantity > quality in the instances of some of the models that are perceived as being low quality are actually very useful

But I am also against models that are just ghouls with long fingernails or whatever, that is a bit too low in quality and I don't want a quantity of that

 

[deepstrasz]

And yes I get it, Hive is not a democracy.

And thank the universe, else every non-knower would vote and we'd get the worst of decisions.

I feel like these two sides are too far apart that you cannot find a middle ground that actually makes sense for both.
If we have Nuclear Bomb enthusiast on one side and peace lover at the other, how can there be a middleground?
Only allow nukes on mondays? small nukes ones?

You make nuclear plants.

Yes and would you consider that good? I wouldn't

Yes. It's balance. Any extreme is basically chaos. Too much order paralyzes.

 

[_Guhun_]

I'm all for quantity > quality in the instances of some of the models that are perceived as being low quality are actually very useful

But I am also against models that are just ghouls with long fingernails or whatever, that is a bit too low in quality and I don't want a quantity of that

This exactly. I want to be able to find simple edits that are acutally useful and sometimes even unique. However, finding such simple edits may be hard if every single resource is accepted and kept visibile, because then there may be a bunch of extremely simple edits with little worth.

Of course, this is assuming people will start spamming the model section with extremely simple edits if the floodgates are opened, which isn't necessarily true.

As I am a map maker, it would seem obvious that an emporium would be the more useful option to me. However, there are other wc3 modding sites that have en emporium-only mindset which I don't find as good as the Hive's model section. I think Hive does a good job of welcoming talented modelers and because of this we get many awesome models. So I don't think an emporium-only approach is the best one, I'm quite keen on a middleground between both approaches.

To this end, I wholeheartedly support the creation of a button to trigger the display of substandard resources that is easy to see. The Substandard section is currently way too hidden off.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I completely agree, Guhun, especially about Substandard; I think the name is insulting to a lot of the things relegated there, but the bigger problem is that it's sequestered off from the "main repository" in a way that makes Searching difficult & non-intuitive.

Yes. It's balance. Any extreme is basically chaos. Too much order paralyzes.

Not so; if 90% of the Community wanted things a certain way, I hardly think it would be "chaos" to acquiesce to that sentiment. (Now we don't look to be hitting that kind of ratio, but still)

Honestly, however, I'm rather optimistic that the new system they are rolling out will go a long way towards achieving both goals. We can have everything all together in one big repository (SD-wise, at least), easily Searchable & no one being potentially insulted, while still having an "Art Gallery"/"Competitive Art Improvement" environment through the use of the "premium" & "director's cut" grades (I assume those can be filtered to show first in the Search bar, if the whole "ego" thing is really that big a deal for some people.)

Here's hoping.

 

[deepstrasz]

Not so; if 90% of the Community wanted things a certain way, I hardly think it would be "chaos" to acquiesce to that sentiment.

One man wanted communism, then the whole of Russia. Ended quite fine. A real success.

use of the "premium"

Sounds like pay to play.

I think the name is insulting to a lot of the things relegated there

Like easy edits, buggy uploads or ripped stuff?
Now, if you're talking about Reforged, it's another deal considering the harder work to achieve the same thing you'd be able with Classic models and skins.

 

[Kyrbi0]

One man wanted communism, then the whole of Russia. Ended quite fine. A real success.
...
Sounds like pay to play.
...
Like easy edits, buggy uploads or ripped stuff?

C'mon man, you're better than this.

 

[deepstrasz]

C'mon man, you're better than this.

Well, I might have gotten banned if I would've tried too hard

 

[Feng Shui]

For example I've noticed the quality purists seem completely horrified at the notion of any resources they deem subpar to be allowed anywhere near the resource section fearing it demeans or cheapens their art.

Not sure why at this point. You've got quality separation already with the tiered approval status. "Broken and faulty." -> Restricted, "Works as intended." -> Approved, "Above average." -> High Quality, "Top shit ramen!" -> Director's Cut. Doesn't seem like that'd be a terrible system to follow for anyone. Besides, if you're a true narcissist for community fame you should be happy there are shittier resources than your own in the database. That way your resources look less shit by comparison.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Not sure why at this point. You've got quality separation already with the tiered approval status. "Broken and faulty." -> Restricted, "Works as intended." -> Approved, "Above average." -> High Quality, "Top shit ramen!" -> Director's Cut.

Well we will, but it's not out yet.

 

[Rui]

I chose Emporium. Having many options to choose from is preferable. As maps are diverse, so are their needs.

This does not mean quality should go underappreciated; much by the contrary.

"Top shit ramen!"

I don't know this expression. What's it mean?

 

[Feng Shui]

I don't know this expression. What's it mean?

It means the bees knees of noodles.

 

[pick-a-chew]

In my honest opinion, the resource section is already an Emporium. There's lots of examples of content that 5-10 years ago would have been easily marked as "substandard" or even "rejected". There's also lots of approved resources that definitely aren't artistic pieces but exist solely because they might be useful (and sometimes have this as a moderator comment on them!). This inconsistency in moderation practices over time makes it obvious the "gallery" vision is unattainable.

Also, what Warcraft 3 map makers want are USEFUL resources, and generally, useful resources only need to be functional and sufficiently distinct from anything else in existence. I've used lots of things from substandard because they've been useful AND functional. What is important however, is that broken/buggy resources are not accepted. There still needs to be some quality.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I agree. And I think the move towards having a separate "High Quality" (or "Premium") category, as well as bringing back the "Director's Cut" for the creme de la creme, are fantastic efforts to combine both "Emporium" & "Art Gallery" goals for the Resource Section.

We may very well be able to have our cake & eat it too.

 

[Duke]

Emporium. Just let people choose what they want to download and use instead of choosing it for them.

 

[Celaquil]

Ah, the age-old artists vs modders debate, it never goes away, does it?

This very thread is a very good representation of why the administration shakes in their pants when they think about this and avoid addressing it like it's a corona infested toddler running rampant in a crowd.

There are good arguments on both sides, and although it seems like most people around here generally want a so-called emporium, there is one heavy-weight elephant in the room that is rarely spoken of: Artists tend to have big egos, and hive artists are usually big contributers to the community. Which in turn makes many of them feel entitled, and although they shouldn't, keeping them at least moderately satisfied is considered important lest we lose them entirely. And what are we left with then? The sub-standard section, which would make us like all the other wc3 forums still around: Dead communities with an endless supply of mediocracy. On the flip-side, if you lean too far in the other direction, you become wc3campaigns, an elitist nest that eventually devoured itself and became void.

I think, although it's like walking on a razor, catering to both sides of this debate is what hive has done well so far, and is why hive still, after all this time, has somewhat of a community. So my honest opinion is that we shouldn't lean too far in either direction, and that constantly working on keeping the balance as well as we can should always be our collective goal and priority. I love having a big database where I can find virtually anything I need for every purpose I have, but I also love seeing resource spotlights, impossibly well made resources, and sifting through the director's cut resources was a past-time hobby of mine back in the day.

 

[Chaosy]

@Keiji

There is a danger to that path, as you say you balance on a razor's edge.

There are many scenarios, especially in games where the developers try to cater to everyone and as a result, end up catering to no one.
It is considerably easier to choose a demographic and cater to that.
Oh and another example, movie adaptions that change themes and what not to have a broader appeal but give the original fans the middle finger.

There have even been successful ways of catering to the top but disregarded.

For instance, I remember when we had a monthly map poll as a spotlight.
But that died with @Vengeancekael

The hive does the occasional spotlight which is high quality but extremely rare.

edit:
I will say that the recent changes are good, but it's just taking back what we had before.
We already had D/C and we had "high quality" in the form of a 5/5

edit2: user of the year is also gone

 

[Rui]

@Keiji well said, and that is what I think too. There's no reason for the administration to shake their pants though: the balance between elitism and anything-goes is what kept us afloat. It's been like that forever, and it is what gives the Hive its strength and allowed it to thrive. And there's no shame in that.

As I said in this thread, it would help to design the resource sections in such a way that high quality resources stand out. Hopefully the new categories being planned will help with that.

@Chaosy Dropping user of the year, spotlights, director's cuts, etc. was a bad decision, in my eyes. Yet, once more, balance is preferred: we also don't need @Pyritie's excellence awards which, after 4 months, had basically awarded half of Hive's active userbase. The sweet spot is the middle ground.

 

[Kyrbi0]

@Keiji well said, and that is what I think too. There's no reason for the administration to shake their pants though: the balance between elitism and anything-goes is what kept us afloat. It's been like that forever, and it is what gives the Hive its strength and allowed it to thrive. And there's no shame in that.

As I said in this thread, it would help to design the resource sections in such a way that high quality resources stand out. Hopefully the new categories being planned will help with that.

@Chaosy Dropping user of the year, spotlights, director's cuts, etc. was a bad decision, in my eyes. Yet, once more, balance is preferred: we also don't need @Pyritie's excellence awards which, after 4 months, had basically awarded half of Hive's active userbase. The sweet spot is the middle ground.

I'm 100% behind all this. This Poll wasn't meant to imply that the Hive was going to turn completely into one or the other (heck, it's not even like I have the authority to do something like that), but rather to get a read on the community & on what we most value (to hopefully help guide any actual implementation by administrators).

Obviously if we can successfully 'straddle the fence' & please both parties (which I have high hopes the new changes will be able to do), I'm all for it.