Banishing the Blademaster

[Kyrbi0]

AKA

AKA Denying the Demon Hunter
AKA Purging the Paladin
AKA Forgetting the Footman
AKA Abolishing the Archmage

I gotta million of them

So HEY all you modelers & animators out there... I gotta question for you.

Why haven't we seen nearly any new models in recent years that use other people's custom animation sets rather than that same old in-game ones? Is it any harder than using in-game animation sets?

I totally get that for the first, ehhh, half-dozen years of this community existing & modelers doing their thing, that it would simply make the most sense to re-use existing stuff. And golly, the Blademaster & the Demon Hunter do have some cool animations. It also makes sense to use in-game stuff because it'll be sure to fit in-game (helps struggling animators who may not be able to avoid robotic or unnatural animations yet).

But, like, we're in the Golden Years of modeling. The model section has probably tens of thousands of models, surely dozens-to-hundreds of which have custom animations. Users like @Tarrasque revolutionized the early years; others like @Gluma have really stormed the scene (why someone hasn't borrowed his AMAZING Lizardman race animations is completely beyond me; sometimes when I want to bring a smile to my face I just load those up in Magos and ogle). And users like @Direfury not only make custom animation sets for his models, but makes his models & animations easily-understood, & intentionally encourages people to re-use those parts for that purpose (yet so far I only know of a very few that have done this).

Now, I fully get that, as a non-modeler I am probably missing something big. I suppose if a modeler simply geomerges from a base (in-game) model, they are necessarily stuck with the in-game animations for that model (though they can of course edit it). But for any of you making your own stuff, or adding your own bones... Is it any harder to use a custom models' animations than it is an in-game models' animations? And if not, why not do it!

And on top of that? Nowadays with @Retera 's Matrix Eater program, nabbing an animation set (or heck, even a part of one) should be child's play! We live in a grand, glorious age! Let's never see the Blademaster or Demon Hunter again!

~~~

@Tarrasque
@Deolrin
@-Grendel
@Direfury
@Traggey
@Tauer
@Gluma
@WhiteDeath (Doesn't Work?)
@MiniMage
@Stefan.K
@Retera
And anyone else I may have forgotten that wanna weighs in.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Aw poop I royally messed up the Poll. Please ignore (or not); I meant to put several other options on there, make it multi-vote, the whole kit & caboodle. Stupid.
Good on ya, @Ralle , with Hive v2.0... Updating Polls is just the kind of advance I like to see!

 

[Cuore]

Here's my position.

1) quick modelmaking is easier with pre-packed animations sets and the blizz base models offer them at relatively high quality (nonlinear, interpolated with Hermite) and wide availability (everyone knows them from the base game).
Base blizz models pose a huge barrier tho. Their animations sets require a very convolute bone-helper tree with helpers moving and their child bones attached to the mesh; a strange arragement that can't be simplified without losing the whole looks and flow of animations. So if you use it, you're relatively "stuck with it". The matrix eater has provided instruments to overcome these limitations, but it requires the patience to learn how the software works.

2) when you get to the point where you make your own bone architecture, you're really tempted to just go ahead and animate them yourself the way you want to instead of importing others' stuff.

Ultimately these aren't valid reasons to stick to the blademaster&Co. and user-made animations should be re-used more than they currently are.
For me, the only really time-consuming issue is obtaining a definite opinion on permission (allowed/denied) where it is required (and only in some instances, not in all cases). This is particularly true for earlier modeling works with inactive artists.

 

[Kyrbi0]

What a lame comment how could you think that would be helpful here
j/k

~~~

Here's my position.

1) quick modelmaking is easier with pre-packed animations sets and the blizz base models offer them at relatively high quality (nonlinear, interpolated with Hermite) and wide availability (everyone knows them from the base game).
Base blizz models pose a huge barrier tho. Their animations sets require a very convolute bone-helper tree with helpers moving and their child bones attached to the mesh; a strange arragement that can't be simplified without losing the whole looks and flow of animations. So if you use it, you're relatively "stuck with it". The matrix eater has provided instruments to overcome this limitations, but it requires the patience to learn how the software works.

This might very well be the most potent argument (as I suspected, stemming from my lack of knowledge on the subject); if a modeler starts with a Blizzard 'skeleton', it's hard to do much more than use Blizzard animations. Hm.

2) when you get to the point where you make your own bone architecture, you're really tempted to just go ahead and animate them yourself the way you want to instead of importing others' stuff.

This I'm not so keen on, personally. It's probably just me; I've actually started this process once (well partially (ok it was one model (ok it was just one arm of that model))), but I've always seen animation as this huge, scary thing. Creating the bones & such is relatively simple, and once that's done, how hard is it to just import some other animations rather than Blizzard's? (no really: how hard? what's the process?)

Ultimately these aren't valid reasons to stick to the blademaster&Co. and user-made animations should be re-used more than they currently are.
For me, the only really time-consuming issue is obtaining a definite opinion on permission (allowed/denied) where it is required (and only in some instances, not in all cases). This is particularly true for earlier modeling works with inactive artists.

This one I understand; getting permission from someone that has disappeared can be tricky. However, we're a community, and I'm a big believer in the idea of "ask permission, wait a respectable time, but go ahead & do it/ask forgiveness later". I mean, 75-90% of the time people don't care (and are in fact honored to have their stuff be used), as long as you give clear credits & make a good-faith effort to contact them. And if they blow up, it can always be taken down. But I think it's ridiculous to expect that if someone's been gone from the site for 6 months-1 year, that their stuff (& stuff made from their stuff) should sit in limbo. It was uploaded publicly for a reason.

 

[Tauer]

I am 100% for more people reusing animations from custom models!

Personally I like animating, so I have no interest in doing it myself. But I warmly welcome any fellow modelers to use my animations, and I'm actually kind of confused as to why it doesn't happen more often. As far as I know Varok Saurfang by @Stefan.K is the first to do so (I might be forgetting someone, please forgive me if that's the case). It might be because people simply prefer the Blizzard animations over mine, which is totally fair. Now I don't have a lot of experience with Matrix Eater and Mdlvis, so I have no idea whether it's harder to reuse animations from custom models than from Blizzard ones. Maybe someone like @Stefan.K could enlighten us on this. One of the reasons I have my "no permission needed" disclaimer in my signature is to encourage people to do exactly this. Indeed, it is also one of the reasons I like making new animations for most of my models instead of reusing old ones (it does happen, but rarely), to give other modelers more choices when it comes to animations.

So to sum up, yes I absolutely unequivocally agree with you Kyrbi0. I would love to see this happen more often, and if there is some specific reason (other than personal preference) it doesn't I'd love to hear it. If there's anything I can do to make porting the animations easier I'd be glad to look into it.

This one I understand; getting permission from someone that has disappeared can be tricky. However, we're a community, and I'm a big believer in the idea of "ask permission, wait a respectable time, but go ahead & do it/ask forgiveness later". I mean, 75-90% of the time people don't care (and are in fact honored to have their stuff be used), as long as you give clear credits & make a good-faith effort to contact them. And if they blow up, it can always be taken down. But I think it's ridiculous to expect that if someone's been gone from the site for 6 months-1 year, that their stuff (& stuff made from their stuff) should sit in limbo. It was uploaded publicly for a reason.

Totally agree. Honestly the whole permission shtick always seemed ridiculous to me. As long as due credit is given why would you protest to people learning from your stuff? It's beyond me. I too think that as long as effort has been made to contact the author, people should just go ahead and upload it. Like you said if the author has a problem with it, he/she can always get it taken down.

 

[KILLCIDE]

In regards to permission, these are the rules we have:

...having permission from the author is preferred but not required, because the original author has full rights to have it removed.

 

[Direfury]

People don't use custom animation sets because, for the most part, nobody is aware of them. These aren't the good old days, where literally everyone fawned over the likes of Frank. Most other people I've met around here barely look through the resource sections at all.

No real attention is drawn to guys like Tauer or myself, so would-be modders just do the same old things all over again.

 

[Stefan.K]

I totally agree it's okay using other people's geoset parts/parts. Well I do it since I started modeling.
I myself think it's better to use custom made animations from someone than using in game ones. It isn't much of a problem to use those too but I found rigging a model to a custom made bone structure easier because of some blizzard models that have two bone structures. Or take a Furion model for example and you'll see what I mean. The model does look better with those animations but requires more time.
Now to answer a question "why I don't use other people's animations for my models?". I don't know, I just think that other modelers(that make custom animations) see us as a "lesser" modelers because "we are too lazy to start practicing animating ourselfs or we lack the skills to do it". Just my thoughts.
I share opinions about the permission.

 

[Alethos]

Well I'm as much modeler as Kybri0 but I agree entirely with the premise- it'd be cool to see a diverse collection of high quality animations than just the same ol' jump slash. On the other hand, animations seem more intimate than geosets to copy over, but maybe it just feels that way to me because it is hardly ever done.

Or take a Furion model for example and you'll see what I mean.

I feel sooo much better after reading this. The models bones were the worst. I first learned about bones and attempted animation transfer on this exact model- (into f'ing Cenarius, for a request). I'm still scarred. Spoiler: Cuore saved the day. The end.

But, like, we're in the Golden Years of modeling. The model section has probably tens of thousands of models, surely dozens-to-hundreds of which have custom animations. Users like @Tarrasque revolutionized the early years; others like @Gluma have really stormed the scene (why someone hasn't borrowed his AMAZING Lizardman race animations is completely beyond me; sometimes when I want to bring a smile to my face I just load those up in Magos and ogle). And users like @Direfury not only make custom animation sets for his models, but makes his models & animations easily-understood, & intentionally encourages people to re-use those parts for that purpose (yet so far I only know of a very few that have done this).

I didn't know any of this- but this is great info.

People don't use custom animation sets because, for the most part, nobody is aware of them. These aren't the good old days, where literally everyone fawned over the likes of Frank. Most other people I've met around here barely look through the resource sections at all.

No real attention is drawn to guys like Tauer or myself, so would-be modders just do the same old things all over again.

I agree- but also it's not that new guys like myself don't really look through the model section- it's just that there's so damn much there (years and years worth). A lot of good stuff- but a lot of crap too (not saying this is all a bad thing, these are still useful for those who don't model). People also have to make snap judgement based on the pic - also if, for example, I don't like trolls, I'm not going to click on any troll model despite any amazing/useful custom animation it had. Whereas if the model is indeed clicked, the site model viewer always often bugs out, and if downloaded, your hard-drive will invariably turn into a chaotic folder-ception of custom resources. The search feature doesn't make things easier, so unless you have watched the model section for years and years you'll naturally miss out on most of these things.

A way around this is just keeping watch on a few individuals who I've liked other of their resources and check out their resource page. This is, of course, forestalled when members limit their profile (ie. the aforementioned Frank and particularly Ujimasa Hojo).

With all that- and the ease of access to the more infinitely-familiar mpq by anyone who has downloaded Magos and it's little wonder why people opt for standard animations.

I am 100% for more people reusing animations from custom models!
I would love to see this happen more often, and if there is some specific reason (other than personal preference) it doesn't I'd love to hear it. If there's anything I can do to make porting the animations easier I'd be glad to look into it.

I'm not sure what you specifically can do but in general I think having an actual useful tagging system (custom animation flags?) for resources may help.
There's no real written tutorial on the Matrix Eater yet (but it is easyish to figure out after using it a bunch and there's also a plethora of video material from Retera) but if there were to be one- a section or table on where to find quality custom animations (from users/resources who allow it) and a description better than just the typical 'attack' (ie. 'light handed-human left to right slash with spin', 'four legged creature breast stroke swim' EDIT: or simpler just list the resource bone structure and weapon type in a table could work too for starters and have a comment column that says stuff like 'fancy spins' or 'rh held in front of body in all anim') could go a long way...

 

[Himperion]

From my experience getting Vietnam flashbacks from Furion,Knight, and WoW rips with 500 motherf&%($%))= bones. Blizzard WC3 animations from the BM/DH/Footie have the little, or great value of being trully universal.

Do the experiment transfer blademaster, demon hunter or footmen into any humanoid model, and you will see then working without the need of tweaks.

Transfer a WoW human animation into a WC3 humanoid body, and be prepared to rework everything from the ground.

Or maybe my luck is just that bad.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Alethos, I have a few responses once I get back to my computer.

Do the experiment transfer blademaster, demon hunter or footmen into any humanoid model, and you will see then working without the need of tweaks.

Transfer a WoW human animation into a WC3 humanoid body, and be prepared to rework everything from the ground.

Well, #1 I'm not talking about using WoW animations; those definitely need tweaks before being useful. I'm talking about other animation sets made by other animators for Warcraft 3.

But also, I'm very curious: what do you mean by "an experiment transfer"? Honestly, I've never actually done it; is it a program, or editing the MDL in Notepad?? How long does it take, how do you decide, etc etc?

I know the Matrix Eater is pretty ideal for this now, but what have you guys been using all the rest of the time? Before ME?

 

[Alethos]

But also, I'm very curious: what do you mean by "an experiment transfer"?
I know the Matrix Eater is pretty ideal for this now, but what have you guys been using all the rest of the time? Before ME?

Im pretty sure thereI think he just means to test it out yourself via whatever program. He's right too, certain animations will fail over and over to transfer but those are usually a snap (at least to villager it takes 10 sec ).
Oinkerwinkle anim transfer I believe is the program used before ME/still by some.

 

[HappyTauren]

For the past X years I have been doing the same thing - Open a model with animations in MDLVis, then remove the mesh, and unnecessary bones, then export the mesh I made in ms3d/3dsmax and then rig it onto those bones. MDLVis has been something I'd use for literally 10 years without much of an issue, but I have yet to try out the matrix eater.

 

[Tauer]

I know the Matrix Eater is pretty ideal for this now, but what have you guys been using all the rest of the time? Before ME?

I used Oinkerwinkle's tools for everything back in the day, including for animation transfers. Matrix Eater looks much more user-friendly though.

 

[infrenus]

In my case, I feel a bit awrkward asking permission of other people, and alsowith the "author can ask for model deletion". I know its extremelly rare to it to happen, but imagine if I used an set, them worked into the model and all and them the person snaps or has a fight in here and decides to remove every single model? Still, I can see it being useful, the part of making animations is always the one I stay as far away as I can to this day.

 

[Deolrin]

I just don't really want to base my work on other people's work. I prefer to do my own thing. Though in truth, it's not a serious issue - if I have a really good idea based on someone else's animations, I will probably ask said author for permission and go ahead with it. But yeah, the permissions thing is the biggest turn-off for me.

 

[Kyrbi0]

~Bump~

Just finished posting on Gluma's Lizardman Speardude model, and it's yet another example of how many awexome custom animation sets we have that people should totes be taking advantage of.