JASS Section: Moving Forward

[PurgeandFire]

Hello fellow Hivers!

As many of you may know, the JASS section is in a rather poor state (to put it nicely). A LOT of users have voiced their opinions to others about their views of the JASS section, and hopefully we can all reach a better compromise (because apparently, the current system isn't cutting it). To do this, I'll give a few questions, and hopefully you guys can take the time to answer them. We need to make some changes, and user feedback will really help.

Feel free to address any other problems as you see fit. All opinions are welcome, and don't be afraid to give a brutally honest one. Avoid bashing if possible.

Questions:

1. Is there anything that has stopped you from making a JASS submission in the past? Any reason that made you unwilling to bother to make a submission?

2. How strict should the coding standards be? Should we have a strict standard, with all code looking similar in format? Or should we have a more lax one, similar to the spells section? Or something in-between (JPAG)?

3. How do you think the forums should be organized? There have been complaints about resources being cluttered e.g. snippets being spread across multiple threads, difficulty finding particular resources, etc. Please tell me how you would feel about the following organizations:

(A) Subforums: Snippets, Systems, Samples
This would allow you to browse systems independently from smaller snippets, which could reduce clutter. Samples would refer to resources that might not be entirely systematic, and that are mostly just demo-maps or are map-specific.

(B) Subforums: Category-based (e.g. AI, Units, Items, Strings, Effects, Execution, etc.)
This would be more similar to the old wc3jass.com organization. Keep in mind that THW has quite a few forums already, but it may help organization.

(C) Subforums: Data Structures
A minimal change. It would move all the data structures/collections to a separate area since they take up a lot of space when trying to browse through resources.

(D) No changes (current system of just one forum for all)

(E) Other (explain)
​

4. How do you feel about the reviewing process? Should we factor in subjective "usefulness"? Should we only accept one type of resource--e.g. a unit indexer, multiboard system, etc. (when they are very, very similar) or should we not use that as a factor?

5. How do you feel about vanilla JASS resource submissions? Should they be allowed to be approved (e.g. "GUI-friendly" resources), or should those just go in the spells section?

6. Any extra features for the JASS forum/JASS-related? e.g. wurst tags (probably will be an extension of the highlight tags). I can't think of much, but I'm sure you guys are filled with ideas, and I'd love to hear them.

7. How do you feel about multiple resources in one thread, assuming that they are related? For example, similar data structures, or a projectile system with a dummy system, or a multiboard system with some extension system.

8. How do you feel about some of the not-so-efficient vJASS features, such as interfaces, inheritance, etc.? This would also include using the regular struct allocator vs. using extends array + alloc alternative. The underlying code is not so great, but it allows cool things API-wise.

Closing:

Those are the main questions of concern. However, feel free to bring anything else up that I may have forgotten. Please respond to the questions, regardless of your skill level in JASS. If you don't, I might end up PM'ing you, so might as well make it now!

 

[Nestharus]

1. Is there anything that has stopped you from making a JASS submission in the past? Any reason that made you unwilling to bother to make a submission?

no

2. How strict should the coding standards be? Should we have a strict standard, with all code looking similar in format? Or should we have a more lax one, similar to the spells section? Or something in-between (JPAG)?

if we lower the quality of the stuff in the JASS section, then we run into issues between points 2 and 4.

Suppose that someone writes a system, but it's of minimal quality. Someone else rewrites the system, exact same features etc, but high quality. This was the exact problem that wc3c and TH were facing. By requiring pretty much perfect quality and doing duels between resources, we've been able to continuously improve the stuff in the JASS section over the years . It's a very cut-throat approach, but it has worked well. Think back to your ReviveUnit and how bad it was with your original submission of it : P. After all of the rewrites, it turned into something simple and elegant.

3. How do you think the forums should be organized? There have been complaints about resources being cluttered e.g. snippets being spread across multiple threads, difficulty finding particular resources, etc. Please tell me how you would feel about the following organizations:

More organizations aren't necessarily good. We need to get away from forums. Come up with a new UI. You can even do one that is hooked up to github but is on THW. The current way is no good. Each resource should be its own sub forum and have issue tracking. The sc2mapster has a way better submission thing than here.

4. How do you feel about the reviewing process? Should we factor in subjective "usefulness"? Should we only accept one type of resource--e.g. a unit indexer, multiboard system, etc. (when they are very, very similar) or should we not use that as a factor?

Don't use any subjective metrics. Someone can only claim that something is useless if they see absolutely everything about it and they prove it. I imagine that people write resources because they see a use for them. You need to shut that resource down. If you just claim that it's useless, you are just being tyrannical. That was another problem that wc3c had.

5. How do you feel about vanilla JASS resource submissions? Should they be allowed to be approved (e.g. "GUI-friendly" resources), or should those just go in the spells section?

vJASS is technically a separate thing from JASS. They should be split up into their own sections along with Wurst, Lua, and so forth. We need to have a SharpCraft section, vJASS section, JASS section, and Wurst section. As we get new tools/languages and they are accepted, we need to add more sections.

6. Any extra features for the JASS forum/JASS-related? e.g. wurst tags (probably will be an extension of the highlight tags). I can't think of much, but I'm sure you guys are filled with ideas, and I'd love to hear them.

automatic updating (allow users to automatically get updates for the stuff they have)

resource management (for users, allow them to easily install/uninstall into/from maps)

better documentation support (the current thread management for documentation is painful to work with. Need a better WYSIWYG editor, bb codes don't work well on large posts).

issue tracking

sub-forum (don't mash it all into one thread, srsly)

7. How do you feel about multiple resources in one thread, assuming that they are related? For example, similar data structures, or a projectile system with a dummy system, or a multiboard system with some extension system.

we've argued about this in the past and in the past it was found that this was no good. You should approve each resource separately, otherwise it will turn into even more of a mess. If there are 3 queues here from one user and another queue here from another user and so on, finding any one of the versions is a nightmare, because there are N queues for each thread.




What we need to do, if we are keeping the approval process, is have some very objective list of requirements that a moderator needs to go through to approve something. The only problem with this approach is that ambiguous requirements, like algorithms and architecture can't really go on the list and depend on the moderator's programming expertise : |. We could just leave the resource as is, even if it uses very bad algorithms and has very poor architecture tho ^)^. Later on, another user will write the same resource with good architecture/algorithms and then the old resource will get gy'd. This will raise a lot of conflict because a lot of users are very emotional. They don't want their worked to be scrapped for someone else's. Look at the huge fight we had over Dummy between me n bribe : p. I beat him in the algorithm, but otherwise both had the exact same functionality.

If we drop the approach of survival of the fittest, we'll end up being stuck forever with resources that were approved first, no matter how bad they are. My stuff didn't get approved at wc3c, even when the original resources had bloody leaks in them. All wc3c cared about was different functionality, the code be damned >.>. We should always strive for excellence if we want to continue to improve what we have .

If we decide to drop excellence and keep original resources or do lots of duplicates, this will raise a few issues.

For duplicates, this will confuse users as to what to use. Why do you think we did the huge clean in Spells section for save/load systems? If one is clearly superior, only keep that one, don't keep all of the garbage with it . The resource section should be easy to navigate and clear to users.

Excellence being dropped is only a problem in the case of duplicates, keeping only originals, or only being concerned with functionality.

It would be nice to have a common header format for all of the scripts. Use my header, it happens to be good, lol.

Here is a book on HCI

http://books.google.com/books?id=S1...e&q=HCI burying important information&f=false

Compare that to the documentation that a lot of people use... they do exactly what the book states not to do. Does that mean that their documentation is bad? Yes, it does. I personally don't even bother to look at resources with crappy documentation. If it were me, I'd just leave it sit in submissions until the user fixes the documentation >.<, lol. With most new resources, the only thing I comment on is the bad documentation. There is a reason for this .

Now, a lot of people do complain that documentation is not descriptive enough. However, you should not write a huge description on what a linked list is or a description as to the common operators of a linked list are. A tutorial of common information should not be embedded in a resource. The only thing that should be documented are strange behaviors.

 

[BPower]

1. -

2. Once you reached a high standart, it is always difficult as hell to keep it, but for sure it's worth trying.

Having a strict coding standarts leads to the fact, that resources out of the JASS sections are much more trustworthy, than those in the spell section.
Therefor you can list resources from the JASS sections trouble-free as requirments for you own libraries, because it is 100% (maybe 99%) sure they are working efficient and smooth.

What I dislike is that a lot of probably nice submissions rot in the submission folder without anyone even noticing them. Although it is time consoming, feedback is very important for the coder.
Just knowing your resources will be for example gy'd in its current sate encourges to improve it or completly let it go. Probably we are just understaffed.

3. - The collection index in the sticky is really nice, depending on the success of SharpCarft we could use a seperate section for it.

I'm short in time at the moment, I'll issue a statement this evening to 4. - 6.

 

[Nestharus]

Having a strict coding standarts leads to the fact, that resources out of the JASS sections are much more trustworthy, than those in the spell section.

Untrue, I submit major works to the Spell section that I'm sure will get a DC : p. My stuff in Spells section is much higher quality than what I put in the JASS section.

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/spells-569/dds-damage-detection-system-231238/?prev=mmr=6
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/spells-569/codeless-save-load-1-0-1-1-a-227231/?prev=mmr=6
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/spells-569/network-v2-0-0-0-a-226065/?prev=mmr=6
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/spells-569/file-i-o-2-0-0-2-a-217403/?prev=mmr=6

Really, I think it'd be cool if we followed documentation like what I did for codeless save/load and DDS, but that's a little extreme >.<. Everyone would be spending forever on docs then.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

Jass section should be implemented in the resources system so people can find all resources by a user by clicking instead of searching

 

[SA Dashie]

1. Is there anything that has stopped you from making a JASS submission in the past? Any reason that made you unwilling to bother to make a submission?

Guess I should submit something sometime. Guess I've been to lazy or just haven't thought about it.

2. How strict should the coding standards be? Should we have a strict standard, with all code looking similar in format? Or should we have a more lax one, similar to the spells section? Or something in-between (JPAG)?

In my opinion they should keep at a consistent quality like they should.
It'll be easier to keep things at a standard to keep things less confusing about how a piece of code should look.

3. How do you think the forums should be organized? There have been complaints about resources being cluttered e.g. snippets being spread across multiple threads, difficulty finding particular resources, etc. Please tell me how you would feel about the following organizations:

I think that it isn't too bad at the moment.
I don't have much of an idea on how to improve it myself though.

4. How do you feel about the reviewing process? Should we factor in subjective "usefulness"? Should we only accept one type of resource--e.g. a unit indexer, multiboard system, etc. (when they are very, very similar) or should we not use that as a factor?

I believe that similar kind of resources should be kept,
with only ones that are to similar be completely be replaced by the better one.
Although still similar resources should be kept but with links in the same similar resources to any pros and cons.

If a resource obviously is to great compared to a lower resource of the same kind then there should be a sub-forum dedicated to these resources, but with it still being linked in the resources that are similar.

5. How do you feel about vanilla JASS resource submissions? Should they be allowed to be approved (e.g. "GUI-friendly" resources), or should those just go in the spells section?

Another reason to have another sub-forum.
If they can stay to their own standard I don't see why not.

7. How do you feel about multiple resources in one thread, assuming that they are related? For example, similar data structures, or a projectile system with a dummy system, or a multiboard system with some extension system.

If it's for extensions it should be find. Although anything outside of that relativity area things can become troublesome.

 

[bowser499]

1. Is there anything that has stopped you from making a JASS submission in the past? Any reason that made you unwilling to bother to make a submission?

Probably, it is only business with both TKoK and OaD maps where lots of stuff must be done.

2. How strict should the coding standards be? Should we have a strict standard, with all code looking similar in format? Or should we have a more lax one, similar to the spells section? Or something in-between (JPAG)

I honestly think that the only standard that must dictate creative people to code is the syntax of the scripting language they use.

3. How do you think the forums should be organized? There have been complaints about resources being cluttered e.g. snippets being spread across multiple threads, difficulty finding particular resources, etc. Please tell me how you would feel about the following organizations:

(A) Subforums: Snippets, Systems, Samples
This would allow you to browse systems independently from smaller snippets, which could reduce clutter. Samples would refer to resources that might not be entirely systematic, and that are mostly just demo-maps or are map-specific.

(B) Subforums: Category-based (e.g. AI, Units, Items, Strings, Effects, Execution, etc.)
This would be more similar to the old wc3jass.com organization. Keep in mind that THW has quite a few forums already, but it may help organization.

(C) Subforums: Data Structures
A minimal change. It would move all the data structures/collections to a separate area since they take up a lot of space when trying to browse through resources.

(D) No changes (current system of just one forum for all)

(E) Other (explain)
​

(E): (A) but with Uncategorized forum in it for something creative which can't fit in the above sections.

4. How do you feel about the reviewing process? Should we factor in subjective "usefulness"? Should we only accept one type of resource--e.g. a unit indexer, multiboard system, etc. (when they are very, very similar) or should we not use that as a factor?

"Usefulness" is quite objective factor (for systems and snippets). Look at it: if the system|snippet can improve many other spells that are without it, then it is certainly useful. Same if it simplifies the coding of overall spell or even whole map.

5. How do you feel about vanilla JASS resource submissions? Should they be allowed to be approved (e.g. "GUI-friendly" resources), or should those just go in the spells section?

I will never approve it if you banish vanilla jass out. vJass is just extension, not what to base in, lol. It has JESP for a good style of coding.

6. Any extra features for the JASS forum/JASS-related? e.g. wurst tags (probably will be an extension of the highlight tags). I can't think of much, but I'm sure you guys are filled with ideas, and I'd love to hear them.

WurstScript is nice, but if you are adding it, you could add cJass aswell. You already have an exception from your rule about cJass right here.

7. How do you feel about multiple resources in one thread, assuming that they are related? For example, similar data structures, or a projectile system with a dummy system, or a multiboard system with some extension system.

Better make some sort of table of contents, imo.

 

[edo494]

hmm...seems my message maybe got to the mods from Meg afterall

1. lack of ideas for anything that wasnt made already
   
2. I dont think it should be too strict, it is not good if all codes look the same just with different function calls inside their methods
   Casing imo should be up to the user, while the system is Open Source(somehow obvious) and public, if someone feels like they want to use PascalCase for their struct members and has been writing that way since they started programming, I dont think mod should force them to do the camelCase
   
   Yes in things like mine Reputation System, where I kind of didnt know what Im doing with the casing, it is obvious, but not for someone who has been PascalCasing for years
   
   
3. I will quote what I said:
   

   The change is adding additional subforum called Datatypes, or possibly Lists, or maybe Storage structs, where all the shit by Nestharus(he is the only one making that kind of stuff so) like UniqueStack, StaticUniqueStack, UniqueQueue and I can go on and on for around 3 full pages.

   
   I didnt want to be personal, but as stated, he is pretty much the only one who makes it(there is the Stack by Anachron as well now tho)
   
   So this is most likely favouring (C), but there could also be Miscelaneous section, with the rcon and shit, because those are not neccessarily lists, more like data tables
   
4. nothing to add
   
5. This is called Jass section, so it is obvious Jass submissions should be allowed here(no spells or stuff, but more like snippets or system, as per usual)
   
6. well, Im not using WurstScript nor am I totally big fan of it(tab indention, why was this invented in frist place?), but I have nothing against it and the tags could make the people who use WurstScript easier.
   Also Jass tags are missing post 1.23b BJs (GetHandleIdBJ etc, mainly the Hashtable BJ API) and several not really used vJass tags are missing(defaults for instance)
   
7. well, its not neccessarily bad idea, but Nes raised some points that are against it and are quite good ones
   

 

[Malhorne]

I'll just say that it is not well organized and I would like to see more sub forums to know what to do.
Anyway, I don't really think it is that strict (or I miss something).

 

[BPower]

4. Personally I would like to bring one resource to perfection, than having ten unfishined similiar versions of it. In the worst case they share the same name, but with a different API.

What could be taken into consideration is lightweight.

7. I have to agree with Nestharus. It could end up beeing really messy.

Untrue, I submit major works to the Spell section that I'm sure will get a DC : p. My stuff in Spells section is much higher quality than what I put in the JASS section.

We all know your stuff is top quality, but it is just a small part out of giant pool of resources.

Please respond, whether you're new to JASS or an expert

I've learned everything within the last half year and I never came in touch with any programming language in my life before. So the answer is neither ... nor.

 

[looking_for_help]

1. Well... the fact that resources don't get approved although there is nothing more to improve on them. It just doesn't make sense for me to make new resources which would use systems that don't get approved since more than 6 months because I don't know if I can rely on them. Second reason is the new "Standard" which doesn't allow function interfaces.
2. The coding standards should be strict, but at the moment they too pedantic in my opinion.
3. Category-based would be nice I think. You usually search for a resource that solves one of your problems - if the resource is a snippet, a sample or a system is quite unimportant for the user.
4. Very often there is no "best" resource because what is best depends on the specific situation of the map where the resource is used. So different approaches for the same thing should be allowed.
5. Vanilla-Jass is Jass, so it should be allowed in the Jass-Section.
6. Wurst-tags would be nice, at the moment those systems are quite unreadable due to the lack of proper highlighting. Some kind of (visual) rating system for approved resources (just like in the spell section) would also be fine.
7. One thread per resource is ok, I think.

Please respond, whether you're new to JASS or an expert.

I don't know... maybe semi-pro?

 

[edo494]

1. Second reason is the new "Standard" which doesn't allow function interfaces.

I agree on this, you are banning language features like polymorphism, interfaces and hooks(this one is reasonable, you cant detect which library hooks what native unless you study the code yourself) only because it generates trigger evaluation. I think it should firstly be proven that the system/snippet cannot run good with those features and then saying to change it, not just insta rejecting it cause "thats how its been always".

As long as the resource isnt something too heavy(interface in library which uses DDS and damage events possibly, but that can also be ommited if good FPS is shown), these should be allowed in resources

1. Very often there is no "best" resource because what is best depends on the specific situation of the map where the resource is used. So different approaches for the same thing should be allowed.

exactly, but this has been done before(3 different DDS-s with 3 different approaches)

edit: Also sorry for ignoring the request for Noob vs pro, I dont consider myself being noob, I know most of the things hidden in vJass and how it compiles and stuff, but I dont neccessarily consider myself pro as well, so I would fit myself into golden middle(tbh, more towards pro-ness than noob-ness but thats up for others to decide)

 

[Cokemonkey11]

1. Is there anything that has stopped you from making a JASS submission in the past? Any reason that made you unwilling to bother to make a submission?

Nothing regarding the state of the forum, I submit what I see fit and I would encourage others to do the same.

2. How strict should the coding standards be? Should we have a strict standard, with all code looking similar in format? Or should we have a more lax one, similar to the spells section? Or something in-between (JPAG)?

We don't have a coding standard. If you're talking about style and whitespace, we should not impose any kind of standard. We can encourage a style, but only if everyone agrees upon it - and that's not likely to happen. No one is likely to even enumerate all the different options, let alone agree.

3. How do you think the forums should be organized? There have been complaints about resources being cluttered e.g. snippets being spread across multiple threads, difficulty finding particular resources, etc. Please tell me how you would feel about the following organizations:
(A) Subforums: Snippets, Systems, Samples
This would allow you to browse systems independently from smaller snippets, which could reduce clutter. Samples would refer to resources that might not be entirely systematic, and that are mostly just demo-maps or are map-specific.

I don't like this heirarchy. Snippets/Systems should be consolidated to one type, and samples shouldn't exist. If there is to be sub-forums, they should merely describe mutually exclusive requirements like vJass and WURST. In a community where the number of active users is decreasing, we should aim to be as inclusive as possible, especially if you consider that the latest iterations of JNGP support other pre-processors. What we really need though, as I already mentioned, is integration of the jass forum into the resources system.

(B) Subforums: Category-based (e.g. AI, Units, Items, Strings, Effects, Execution, etc.)
This would be more similar to the old wc3jass.com organization. Keep in mind that THW has quite a few forums already, but it may help organization.

I think this has potential but it can get problematic when systems are related to more than one thing. I'd vote no on this too.

(C) Subforums: Data Structures
A minimal change. It would move all the data structures/collections to a separate area since they take up a lot of space when trying to browse through resources.

From a computer science theory standpoint this can have problems due to the nature of data structure/program duality, but in JASS we'd be being pedantic by worrying about it. I'd say a Data Structures Sub-forum is worth having.

4. How do you feel about the reviewing process? Should we factor in subjective "usefulness"? Should we only accept one type of resource--e.g. a unit indexer, multiboard system, etc. (when they are very, very similar) or should we not use that as a factor?

You should consider each system holistically. If a new system can be shown to be strictly worse in every case than an existing one (worse API, worse performance, worse requirements...) it can be denied - but old resources shouldn't become deprecated if possible.

5. How do you feel about vanilla JASS resource submissions? Should they be allowed to be approved (e.g. "GUI-friendly" resources), or should those just go in the spells section?

It's literally called the JASS section. Of course JASS resources should be allowed (although I don't see anyone actually doing that really)

7. How do you feel about multiple resources in one thread, assuming that they are related? For example, similar data structures, or a projectile system with a dummy system, or a multiboard system with some extension system.

I'd prefer to avoid this. If the systems are completely coupled than the first system should be abstracted within the second one. If they're independent in any sense of the word, they need separate threads.

Those are the main questions of concern. However, feel free to bring anything else up that I may have forgotten.

Please, integrate jass section into resources system.

Please respond, whether you're new to JASS or an expert. If you don't, I might end up PM'ing you, so might as well make it now!

i r noob, how 2 object orientated

 

[PurgeandFire]

Thanks for all the replies! I've read them, and hopefully we can get some more input over the next few days. I'll respond to them a little later, but it may take me a while.

Also, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding about this:

Please respond, whether you're new to JASS or an expert.

This is what I actually meant:

Please respond to the questions, regardless of your skill level in JASS.

I've updated the main post to reflect that. I don't need to know whether you're an expert or noob, I just want people to reply so that we get a good amount of feedback to take into account. ;D

P.S. Added question 8! Thanks lfh for bringing it up, it was another question that I wanted a response to.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

8. How do you feel about some of the not-so-efficient vJASS features, such as interfaces, inheritance, etc.? This would also include using the regular struct allocator vs. using extends array + alloc alternative. The underlying code is not so great, but it allows cool things API-wise.

They're features of the parser and their inclusion in the API is final. As long as the resources are using these features in a way that is actually beneficial, just enjoy it. If we some day have an updated parser than can do them efficiently, we can become more lax about their use cases.

To re-word: Allow them in cases where they either produce a nicer API (Subjective) or have no other option. If the parser is updated, allow them in all cases.

 

[edo494]

I will make new post, so its clearer to read and you dont have to re-read my 2 posts

As I said, I think it should be allowed as long as it can be proven or is clear that it wont make the FPS drop even with other stuff running(Damage events inbetween and stuff that is possible to be seen in real map) even tho it creates trigger executions here and there

 

[Malhorne]

I don't think at all that struct non-extended array are that bad.
They just have double free protection more WHICH IS NOT bad !
Struct extends array is when you want another allocator or you really want to get rid of the double free protection but it is not a must have at all !

 

[Nestharus]

How do you feel about some of the not-so-efficient vJASS features, such as interfaces, inheritance, etc.? This would also include using the regular struct allocator vs. using extends array + alloc alternative. The underlying code is not so great, but it allows cool things API-wise.

interfaces/inheritance shouldn't be done in wc3 =)

 

[edo494]

if they shouldnt be done, they shouldnt be implemented, but they are, so why not use them when they are beneficial?
also I think struct exteds array was priparilly made to make data holding structs(or possibly for static if-ed globals) and you never allocate those objects, but people made modules that replaced the allocator with tiny little bit better code

 

[TriggerHappy]

Is there anything that has stopped you from making a JASS submission in the past? Any reason that made you unwilling to bother to make a submission?

Not really.

How strict should the coding standards be? Should we have a strict standard, with all code looking similar in format? Or should we have a more lax one, similar to the spells section? Or something in-between (JPAG)?

I don't think we should force any coding style, but the code should be readable nonetheless. The code should also be as efficient as possible as long as it's not at the cost of something else (unless the author decides it that way).

How do you think the forums should be organized? There have been complaints about resources being cluttered e.g. snippets being spread across multiple threads, difficulty finding particular resources, etc. Please tell me how you would feel about the following organizations:

Collections Index

I don't think there should be any subforums. The spells section already takes care of systems, demo maps, and spells. There's not enough submissions to give snippets or other code resources their own sub-forum, in my opinion.

So option (D) I guess.

How do you feel about the reviewing process? Should we factor in subjective "usefulness"?

Subjective usefulness no, but it definitely has to have a practical use. If nobody can think of a logical one then maybe the resource shouldn't be approved.

Should we only accept one type of resource--e.g. a unit indexer, multiboard system, etc. (when they are very, very similar) or should we not use that as a factor?

I think if the other resource brings nothing different then no it shouldn't be approved.

If it's a decent alternative then yeah, allow it.

How do you feel about vanilla JASS resource submissions? Should they be allowed to be approved (e.g. "GUI-friendly" resources), or should those just go in the spells section?

No GUI variables, but if it's a plain JASS snippet then sure.

Any extra features for the JASS forum/JASS-related? e.g. wurst tags (probably will be an extension of the highlight tags). I can't think of much, but I'm sure you guys are filled with ideas, and I'd love to hear them.

I actually have already made cjass, wurst, and vjass JASS tags that I was going to talk to Ralle about when I got the chance to explain more about them.

They'd work like this:

[code=jass]code here[/code]
[jass=wurst]code here[/code]
[jass=cjass]code here[/code]

Also are much faster speed-wise compared to GeSHi and has more features like thousands of keywords the current ones don't have (GetHandleIdBJ) highlighting errors, struct members, raw codes (correctly) ect..

! !=
0 0.5 0xF
'rawc' 'raw' 'r' // middle is invalid raw code
text // can use @text@ to highlight errors
/*
multi
line
*/

Struct.members.are.highlighted(0, 1)
bj_lastCreatedHashtable
regular text
JASS_MAX_ARRAY_SIZE
DebugIdInteger2IdString
native UnitAlive

[/ad]

How do you feel about multiple resources in one thread, assuming that they are related? For example, similar data structures, or a projectile system with a dummy system, or a multiboard system with some extension system.

Collections Index

How do you feel about some of the not-so-efficient vJASS features, such as interfaces, inheritance, etc.? This would also include using the regular struct allocator vs. using extends array + alloc alternative. The underlying code is not so great, but it allows cool things API-wise.

I think we shouldn't directly disallow them, but shouldn't approve resources in where it wouldn't be needed/practical. For example hooks could be useful for certain, rare scripts. This would fall under the "efficiency rule".

More organizations aren't necessarily good. We need to get away from forums. Come up with a new UI. You can even do one that is hooked up to github but is on THW. The current way is no good. Each resource should be its own sub forum and have issue tracking. The sc2mapster has a way better submission thing than here.

I disagree with this, I think we should stick to forums.

I don't think I'd like the JASS section to be like another resource section (maps, spells ect..). Forums are more than enough.

vJASS is technically a separate thing from JASS. They should be split up into their own sections along with Wurst, Lua, and so forth. We need to have a SharpCraft section, vJASS section, JASS section, and Wurst section. As we get new tools/languages and they are accepted, we need to add more sections.

Thread prefixes should be fine.

automatic updating (allow users to automatically get updates for the stuff they have)

resource management (for users, allow them to easily install/uninstall into/from maps)

better documentation support (the current thread management for documentation is painful to work with. Need a better WYSIWYG editor, bb codes don't work well on large posts).

Just say it, you want to move the JASS section to git-hub, or make it a git-hub clone lol

1. Resource management should simply be an external tool, either official or unofficial that could maybe be implemented into New Gen. I have already thought about making something like this but I just haven't. The same goes for automatic updating, we don't need a commit system that's overkill.
2. Yeah the WYSIWYG isn't the best, but you should just be copying and pasting in there anyways. Also XenForo should have an improved one.
3. issue tracking - again I think it's overkill and people probably wouldn't even use it. People are going to report issues to the thread and I think that's enough.

 

[Nestharus]

I've been thinking about standards and there are really 4 standards at the moment.

Here are my thoughts...

Have several sections for submissions that follow different standards. Section 1 would be a free for all with no approval system. You simply make your thread and that's it. You can do whatever you like and use whatever you like.

Section 2 would kind of have the Spells requirements and a bit of JESP and could only use resources from section 2 and up.

Section 3 would have JASS Standard 3 reqs (what the JASS section has been doing) and could only use section 3 resources and up.

Section 4 would be like the golden resources that follow JASS Standard 4. Not only that, but they'd have to have documentation on par with my stuff in the spells section . It's where the wtf mega resources go : p.

with this, everyone will be happy

if you want to follow whatever you want to do and want to do your own convention, there is a section for that

if you want to work on something with extreme documentation and support, there is a section for that

if you're somewhere in the middle, there is a section for that ^_^



Also, @Trigger, we don't need a commit system. I'd just be happy with a resource manager that has automatic updating.

 

[TriggerHappy]

with this, everyone will be happy

Sorry no, you're over-complicating things.

In theory sure it's great to have a forum for everyone, but in reality it will just be an unorganized mess and confusing to many people.

 

[Nestharus]

If we don't come up with a solution that everyone can agree with, then some people will stop submitting and they will even possibly take their resources down >.<.

It's already pretty bad as it is. We would have a lot more submissions if we had a system that everyone could agree with.

 

[TriggerHappy]

If we don't come up with a solution that everyone can agree with, then some people will stop submitting and they will even possibly take their resources down >.<.

It's already pretty bad as it is. We would have a lot more submissions if we had a system that everyone could agree with.

Yes, and I didn't agree with your solution

I mean c'mon, dividing the JASS section up by coding standards? who's gonna follow that..

 

[Nestharus]

Two resources that use different standards should not be used together though.

Furthermore, two resources that are identical but follow two different standards should both be approved :\. They can even take the exact same approach. I personally wouldn't stand for someone copying code. If they code it from scratch or credit the original author, that's fine.

 

[PurgeandFire]

I wouldn't have four separate forums with it. It is not a bad idea, but the goal is to make subforums only where it is absolutely necessary or makes more sense.

Having optional standards is not bad, but if we do have an "ultimate standard", then it has to be something made with a general consensus. The standard 4 you posted is good in most respects, but some things may need to be altered (depending on the answers to some of these questions, I suppose ). But anyway, I won't go on about that right now, it will derail the thread. We can discuss it later.

We can always just have the main thread state whether it follows the standard (or a mod could mark it). Could add [JPAG] or [S4] or something to the title. If it gets too distracting to have it in the thread title, it can always be in the main thread. (e.g. we could make a template, and the mod will apply that to the post saying whether it follows a standard, kinda like the "Moderator's Review" part of resource submissions).

 

[TriggerHappy]

We can always just have the main thread state whether it follows the standard (or a mod could mark it). Could add [JPAG] or [S4] or something to the title. If it gets too distracting to have it in the thread title, it can always be in the main thread. (e.g. we could make a template, and the mod will apply that to the post saying whether it follows a standard, kinda like the "Moderator's Review" part of resource submissions).

For the record I really don't like this.

 

[Malhorne]

The only standart I think is CONSTANT_NAMES_LIKE_THIS, FunctionNameLikeThis, variablesNamesLikeThis, StructName.

 

[Nestharus]

For the record I really don't like this.

You gotta make compromises or nothing will ever be agreed upon.

 

[PurgeandFire]

For the record I really don't like this.

Yeah, these are just ideas for now. I won't be ready to suggest any changes to Ralle until we get a lot more posts.

 

[GhostWolf]

What keeps amazing me is how you people strive to "industrialize" Jass, for lack of a better term.
Whatever happened to people making stuff for fun on this site?
I am happy I moved on from WC3 coding before this nonsense (not to mention WC3 is dead, you are late by a couple of years).

 

[muzzel]

We can always just have the main thread state whether it follows the standard (or a mod could mark it). Could add [JPAG] or [S4] or something to the title. If it gets too distracting to have it in the thread title, it can always be in the main thread. (e.g. we could make a template, and the mod will apply that to the post saying whether it follows a standard, kinda like the "Moderator's Review" part of resource submissions).

This makes sense. Resources should be grouped with respect to their purpose, not their "quality". Making different sections for different qualities/standards requires the user to search them all to find a resource, thats crap.

Actually i felt im too lazy, but as im posting anyway i can aswell answer some of the questions:

1. Is there anything that has stopped you from making a JASS submission in the past? Any reason that made you unwilling to bother to make a submission?

- I made some resources, but u didnt submit them here because they are in Wurst and right now THW lacks support for Wurst resources (no dedicated subforum or tags, no Moderator with Wurst knowledge).
- Also the last resources i submitted are still in the "submissions" subforum waiting for an official review for 2 months. If stuff doesnt get reviewed i dont see a point in submitting...
- I dont like the jass resources section. Its flooded with nestharus crap and when im looking for a resource im usually just using google.

2. How strict should the coding standards be? Should we have a strict standard, with all code looking similar in format? Or should we have a more lax one, similar to the spells section? Or something in-between (JPAG)?

The only requirement for resources should be that they are working properly (no misfunction, no leaks) and have documentation. Forcing a coding standard and allowing only high performance resources is a useless restriction, as extreme performance is in most situations unnecessary and often comes at the cost of usability or more complicated code.
However resources that follow a high standard and provide a high performance should be marked as such (e.g. with something similar to a DC).

3. How do you think the forums should be organized? There have been complaints about resources being cluttered e.g. snippets being spread across multiple threads, difficulty finding particular resources, etc. Please tell me how you would feel about the following organizations:

Subforums should be organized in a way that makes finding resources easier.

There should be one subforum dedicated to wurst. Splitting the wurst stuff up and sorting it into the other forums doesnt make sense as you dont mix Wurst packages with vJass libraries.

4. How do you feel about the reviewing process? Should we factor in subjective "usefulness"? Should we only accept one type of resource--e.g. a unit indexer, multiboard system, etc. (when they are very, very similar) or should we not use that as a factor?

Its okay to have similar systems for one purpose. The only problem i see is that it might be confusing for new users to have to choose between 15 systems for the same purpose. A list that gives a quick overview of the most useful standard libraries would be cool (with stuff like one TimerSystem, one UnitIndexer, one DamageDetection etc.). This list should contain only the very basic mainstream systems, no extreme high performance crap that is hard to use and has 15k lines of code. This stuff is for expert users who already know their way around different resources.

8. How do you feel about some of the not-so-efficient vJASS features, such as interfaces, inheritance, etc.? This would also include using the regular struct allocator vs. using extends array + alloc alternative. The underlying code is not so great, but it allows cool things API-wise.

No point in banning these features.
Good API, clean code >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Performance. Yes Nestharus, 99% of the time.

 

[TriggerHappy]

You gotta make compromises or nothing will ever be agreed upon.

What's the point of asking our opinions if we're supposed to compromise on every idea?

All I said is I don't agree with it

What keeps amazing me is how you people strive to "industrialize" Jass, for lack of a better term.
Whatever happened to people making stuff for fun on this site?
I am happy I moved on from WC3 coding before this nonsense (not to mention WC3 is dead, you are late by a couple of years).

It's not about standardizing JASS (because I agree, it won't happen and at this point it's kinda stupid), it's about improving the JASS section hence the thread title.

 

[Nestharus]

- I dont like the jass resources section. Its flooded with nestharus crap and when im looking for a resource im usually just using google.

should we gy my stuff so that the JASS section doesn't have my stuff in it then?

or should we just give me my own section so that it's separate from everyone else because I have so much stuff?

 

[edo494]

or should we just give me my own section so that it's separate from everyone else because I have so much stuff?

I dont think you are special enough to have Nestharus section, but as I said and wrote in private message to Meg, I think adding something like Lists section would be usefull, because 2 pages of the same stuff with different prefix will be moved to other thread

 

[Nestharus]

The other thing we need for the JASS section are 3 moderators. One moderator is going to burn out, srsly. The more moderators, the better.

It'd be nice if any given resource required 2 reviews to get approved ; o. It's always good to have multiple people look it over.

ofc, the moderators need to be fair, impartial, and objective. They also need to explicitly follow the rules and procedures that are laid out, not take matters into their own hands >.<.

 

[BPower]

How do you feel about vanilla JASS resource submissions? Should they be allowed to be approved (e.g. "GUI-friendly" resources), or should those just go in the spells section?

I think there is nothing wrong about that, but I have to agree with TriggerHappy please no GUI generated variables.

4. How do you feel about the reviewing process? Should we factor in subjective "usefulness"? Should we only accept one type of resource--e.g. a unit indexer, multiboard system, etc. (when they are very, very similar) or should we not use that as a factor?

Resources which work flawless, acceptable smooth and are not 100% identical to others should not be rejected by default.
But then we need a rating system plus a recommendation/explanation why a resource is rated higher over another.

The more moderators, the better.

Imo the number of people who are capable of beeing a moderator in the jass section is very limited.

 

[Malhorne]

I can't agree more with Nestharus about moderators

 

[Bribe]

Moderation is a tedious process when no one agrees on what should be approved and what shouldn't. Nestharus once had a good idea. That idea was to let the users vote on what is useful VS what isn't. A usefulness/not useful proposal would work because no moderator can possibly see eye to eye with Nestharus.

 

[TriggerHappy]

It'd be nice if any given resource required 2 reviews to get approved ; o. It's always good to have multiple people look it over

I don't think we should have it be a requirement, but if you have a problem with the way one mod is reviewing it I think requesting another moderator to take a look would be better. I'm really against making the JASS section a giant rule/standard fest.

I keep seeing people request a collections/list sub-forum, but why? They really aren't that useful for Warcraft III and we don't need an abundance of them. But since we do have them I think they should be in a thread like this.

Personally I think the current layout is perfect, we just need the collections merged into one thread.

We don't need to over-complicate things, it will only harm the site.

should we gy my stuff so that the JASS section doesn't have my stuff in it then?

or should we just give me my own section so that it's separate from everyone else because I have so much stuff?

Collections Index

 

[Nestharus]

A usefulness/not useful proposal would work because no moderator can possibly see eye to eye with Nestharus.

the veteran programmers don't need moderators to oversee what they do >.>. They can handle themselves. People like TriggerHappy, Troll-Brain, cokemonkey, and so on -.-. Moderation is only really there for beginners.

 

[edo494]

I don't think we should have it be a requirement, but if you have a problem with the way one mod is reviewing it I think requesting another moderator to take a look would be better. I'm really against making the JASS section a giant rule/standard fest.

I keep seeing people request a collections/list sub-forum, but why? They really aren't that useful for Warcraft III and we don't need an abundance of them. But since we do have them I think they should be in a thread like this.

Personally I think the current layout is perfect, we just need the collections merged into one thread.

We don't need to over-complicate things, it will only harm the site.



Collections Index

I ask for subforum because people wont agree on merging similar resources to one thread no matter how hard you try and its because the whole first and like half of the second page is just lists and shit

 

[Troll-Brain]

You're taking it too seriously, trolls, complaints, "fights" between users, ... are mostly in the jass section because it's about time.
I mean, nowadays, people like me enjoy more such silly stuff simply because the game is old and most jassers are veterans and don't really write jass lines anymore, at least not like the past.

I'm also against any more restrictive rule, because really it's too late and also think about the jass resources which are already there.
If you ask to update them, i guess most of them will be graveyarded because the authors are left or won't care to edit them, and if you say that already approved resources don't have to follow the new rules, that will result in a mess with the new ones.

About more moderators, why not, you could still make an announce and choice the ones you judge good enough for the work.
Or even make a pool for that matter.

 

[TriggerHappy]

I ask for subforum because people wont agree on merging similar resources to one thread no matter how hard you try and its because the whole first and like half of the second page is just lists and shit

So your'e saying because 2 pages of the JASS section is collections, they shouldn't be merged into a thread? I think that's the exact reason they should be combined. Honestly nobody uses them and they're borderline useless so why have them flood the JASS section. The mass amount of lists and stuff is annoying.

And who's talking about similar threads here? I just said collections.

You're taking it too seriously, trolls, complaints, "fights" between users, ... are mostly in the jass section because it's about time.
I mean, nowadays, people like me enjoy more such silly stuff simply because the game is old and most jassers are veterans and don't really write jass lines anymore, at least not like the past.

I'm also against any more restrictive rule, because really it's too late and also think about the jass resources which are already there.
If you ask to update them, i guess most of them will be graveyarded because the authors are left or won't care to edit them, and if you say that already approved resources don't have to follow the new rules, that will result in a mess with the new ones.

About more moderators, why not, you could still make an announce and choice the ones you judge good enough for the work.
Or even make a pool for that matter.

A public poll to hire a moderator is a really bad idea, imo.

 

[Troll-Brain]

I agree that usually a forum should work like a dictatory rather than a democraty, but meh i'm not saying that the result of the pool should be absolutely followed
Plus, i guess that only "active" jassers would care to answer the pool.
Now, it's just a random idea, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Nestharus]

I think that the veteran JASS people should govern the JASS section =)

There is no need for moderators, the coders can govern themselves, especially our old veteran members

there will be a lot of clashes because a lot of the members have their own styles, but that's good. Different styles is good ^_^. There is no one perfect style. I personally love mine, but Troll-Brain also loves his, and so on. We have a lot of well-defined styles here.

 

[TriggerHappy]

I agree that usually a forum should work like a dictatory rather than a democraty, but meh i'm not saying that the result of the pool should be absolutely followed
Plus, i guess that only "active" jassers would care to answer the pool.
Now, it's just a random idea, nothing more, nothing less.

I suppose but a poll would be a bit misleading I think. Also I think much most people that would vote actually have no idea about JASS, or at least who can moderate it. The only people on staff I think capable of deciding that would be Mag & PurgeandFire, and of course with Ralle's approval.

Not trying to bash your idea I'm just sayinn.. I really would like the JASS section to be better but I'm not sure if it's heading that way..

I think that the veteran JASS people should govern the JASS section =)

There is no need for moderators, the coders can govern themselves, especially our old veteran members

there will be a lot of clashes because a lot of the members have their own styles, but that's good. Different styles is good ^_^. There is no one perfect style. I personally love mine, but Troll-Brain also loves his, and so on. We have a lot of well-defined styles here.

No.. just no. "Govern themselves" basically means a moderator, and who decides these "veteran jass users"? Turning the JASS section into a free-for-all (which it kinda already is) is a bad idea, I mean look at where it's at now.

Also as I said in my first post I think enforcing a coding style is bad, but the code should be readable and clean nonetheless.

 

[Troll-Brain]

I knew i had to add *shrugs* xD

@Nestharus : In a perfect world, leaving a forum without moderators and let the users handle it, would work, but well we are not in a such world ^^

 

[Malhorne]

It will not work we really need moderators.

 

[TriggerHappy]

I mean honestly guys here's the JASS section sorted by lowest views.

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/jass-resources-412/?daysprune=-1&order=asc&sort=views

It's like all the collections! We really should have them in one thread (with multiple posts)..

*cough* collections *cough*