WoW is so boring

[Jaakko]

How can somebody like this game? It is more boring than visiting grandparents who don't have a computer to begin with.

I played to a lvl 10 character and all the time it is just killing creeps and getting experience. Also all of the towns and all places are completely boring. I see no unique places.

I played until lvl 10 and at any part I was not forced to use my brain at all. It was just run in the countryside and kill creeps.
And furthermore the only way I would get addicted to this game is if I wanted to die of boredom. Good that I didn't have to pay anything for this tauren****.
I would have wanted to attack the allied players but everybody said I should have a higher lvl and I couldn't find any allied players in barrens.
So now I have to ask is there something I have missed or what makes WoW so addicting?

 

[Kimbo]

The social aspect of wow is addictive;guilds and friends, those are the factors, not the actual game itself as grinding is a bitch. But personally i enjoy the game, i like its character, i dont find it "a peice of boring shit"

 

[Gilles]

End game is what keeps it going.

And I don't mind grinding in WoW. I hate it in other games, but for some reason not WoW. Maybe they have formulated some kind of computer drug. It's the cocaine of computers.

 

[Perry_]

Where to begin on what it seems you haven't covered... Many aspects are repetitive but the addicting part is how you go about doing those repeatitive things

-If you want unique cities and towns you have to go exploring beyond the beginner areas though my personal favorite and very unique city is Booty Bay which you can catch a ship to from Ratchet in Barrens

-Mulgore and Barrens are fairly boring landscape wise, everyone has different likings and the higher you are the more different areas you can see.

-I find the Alliance has much friendlier and generally nicer people. Its more for casual players which I don't find an insult because i play Alliance myself. Horde is more for experienced and usually the players are somewhat more serious about the game. Many can argue against this but its my opinion and many other people opinion. You sound more like a casual player in whi case go alliance.

-Wanna smash up the otherside without hunting them down? No low leveled Alliance people hang out in Barrens. Especially your level. However there is a way you can beat up some people your level. There called Battlegrounds and you can compete in a battleground and they're basically one small map in which to raise war on your opponents. They're like separate servers and other people from other servers can be in the same one. However the levels are split up so they don't become to unbalanced. There are 4 Battle grounds in total and you can compete in the first one at level 10. Which will be in the level 10-19 bracket. Each map has different Victory conditions and number of people per team. To enter any of these enter the military section of any city and lock for battle grounds masters. There usually a bunch of NPCs all standing together and a couple of real players hanging around. Asking someone for directions is also a good idea. When talking you can select any battlegrounds server or select first available. You will need to talk to the person in charge of Warsong Gulch. Try it out, seriously, some people even stop leveling and play WoW just for the pvp in Battlegrounds.

-Guilds: find the people that are right for you, whether its social, pvp or fast leveling orientated you can find whats right for you. Guilds just make it so much funner to play and can be come of the closest web pals you can have.

-Instances / Dungeons: You might of done one of these I'm not sure but a lot of instances are really fun as you must co-operate with 4 other people in a team. There are traps, surprises and treasure to be found.

-Generally exploring: I like to go beyond the areas I should, find new places, its kind of fun trying to creep past monsters. Both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms have a very different feel.

 

[alfredx_sotn]

Quit the game, move on, simple.

EDIT: The game was only fun in its old days when you had imbalanced shits to brag out about, every class was unique.

 

[Aeroblyctos]

WoW is so boring

I totally agree. I have played this game from level 1 to level 60. It was the same shit from the beginning to end: killing enemies brainlessly.

So now I have to ask is there something I have missed or what makes WoW so addicting?

You have not missed anything. Like I said: it is same shit from beginning to end. Only fun what I see in this game is to go team speak with friends and complete some instances.

 

[The_wand_mirror]

I always thought the addiction of ORPG's came from the items.

I wanna have teh best itemzzz

 

[Jaakko]

Did I say it was boring? lol I was just in a seremony and after it ended Horde and allied attacked each other. We were all there from the server almost and it was fun.

 

[~Void~]

End game is what keeps it going.

And I don't mind grinding in WoW. I hate it in other games, but for some reason not WoW. Maybe they have formulated some kind of computer drug. It's the cocaine of computers.

End game fails. I took one run through Karazhan on my level 70 (I used to be totally addicted to the game, and I leveled to 70 when I got TBC because I was curious), and after 3 hours I got to the end and no loot for me, because I didn't have enough karma points?! WTF? I was freaking second on the damage meter and I'm a tank! So yeah, anyways, 3 hours of killing, dying, resurrecting and swearing in voice chat, for nothing.

So, that put me off the game for a week, I came back to do Gruul's Lair with my guild because it was a bit easier, this time I had a few karma points to spend too. Well, turns out from the first boss, nothing dropped for me. When we finally killed Gruul, after about 10 minutes of spamming taunt sunder and shield block, he drops my tier 4 piece. I am really happy and I decide to spend all 3 karma points on it. Well, turns out there was this fury warrior who already had a merciless gladiator piece filling that slot (tier 5 equivalent) that thought he needed something more "PVE oriented" and was the higher bidder.

And to think I played through all that again and again into tier 6. I am through with Blizzard's WoW.

Edits:
@Perry_ : If that keeps you occupied, you must enjoy simple things. Maybe if WoW required timing like in Oblivion or Halo (just some examples), it would be more fun.
@alfredx_sotn : You make a very good point. I agree. But I don't want it to go back, before I get addicted again and start paying $15 a month :\

Also-- Before I get carried away, what servers/char names do you all play on? I played on around 20 or so, so I may know you

 

[alfredx_sotn]

You can't go back to the old WoW.

It's sad but true!

 

[Fulla]

I played it for about a week, just couldnt get into it.
Pretty much what you said, just same thing over and over.

It started to get fun thou, when I went in big groups to complete instances, but even they got repititive.

 

[Night_Gob]

I played until lvl 20 and quited. But whats annoys me most is that Blizzard have totally ruined the Warcraft fluff. With making all the wc3 heroes into instance bosses. And what about the scourge I thought they where unstoppable according to WoW they vanished? or?

thats my thoughts

 

[blazing-inferno]

i was addicted the first time i got it, then after i hit lvl 40 then it started to get very boring... i wanted to pull my hair out when grinding because quests weren't good enough. when a quest has you jumping from land to land and only give you 2000 or 3000 exp its not worth it. i sucked it up until lvl 60, played pvp most of the time and hated every minute of it... so imbalanced in my server horde always won.... out of 50 games of wsg i won 1 game. mainly because the alliance ran around like monkeys while the horde was coordinated.

Another thing i didn't like was how most people were too into getting their epics and not helping the little guy. to me instances were a waste of time, i went to black rock spire like 10 times and came out with absolutely nothing. i quit shortly after reaching lvl 60 because it got so repetitive, i found myself playing wc3 more. but if i was in a guild with all friends and had time to play it i probably would go back but as for now i don't think its worth it... im not saying its a bad game but i guess it wasn't for me.

 

[brad.dude03]

I was thankfully never addicted to WoW. I hit 40 and quit because I didn't play it enough to justify the monthly fee.

The game is not about grinding, if you recall. There are these things, they're called 'Quests'. You may have heard of them. Contrary to popular belief, not all quests are about mindlessly killing. Many of them are unique and creative, follow their own storyline, and provide phat loots for your hard work. Starting quests are always simple gather/kill/retrieve because they are intended to introduce you into the mechanics of the game, how it works.

Grinding in WoW is pointless. You'll probably end up killing the mobs for a quest, so why not kill the mobs, get quest xp, and quest loot instead of just mob xp?

PVP used to be fun, and doing arenas is about the only fun thing to do for it anymore (Battlegrounds are a waste of time and are only done for honor points, never for fun). The old system would allow you to get XP from doing Battlegrounds, it was great if you got tired of questing and wanted to do something else.

WoW is definetly not a bad game, but it's not for everyone. There are 6.5 billion people in this world, and 10 million of which play WoW. The game obviously appeals to said 10 million, but Blizzard can't make everyone be rabidly hooked on the game, despite their best attempts.

 

[Tyranid]

The game is not about grinding, if you recall. There are these things, they're called 'Quests'. You may have heard of them. Contrary to popular belief, not all quests are about mindlessly killing. Many of them are unique and creative, follow their own storyline, and provide phat loots for your hard work. Starting quests are always simple gather/kill/retrieve because they are intended to introduce you into the mechanics of the game, how it works.

Indeed, storyline... "Hey my family was killed and my cousin raped and my sister killed by the razormanes, why don't you go and collect their tusks for me?"

"Thanks for the tusks, my vengeance is complete! Now I want you to collect me 20 peaceblooms... For some reason."

"Ok now I need you to scout on the Razormanes up north for they killed my grandparents!"

"Now that you've scouted them, KILL them! Kill all of them!"

"You've killed them all!? Excellent! Here is a blue item for your hard work, you're most likely going to throw it away thought once you go to the Battlegrounds to get Gladiator gear."

 

[Aeroblyctos]

Indeed, storyline... "Hey my family was killed and my cousin raped and my sister killed by the razormanes, why don't you go and collect their tusks for me?"

"Thanks for the tusks, my vengeance is complete! Now I want you to collect me 20 peaceblooms... For some reason."

"Ok now I need you to scout on the Razormanes up north for they killed my grandparents!"

"Now that you've scouted them, KILL them! Kill all of them!"

"You've killed them all!? Excellent! Here is a blue item for your hard work, you're most likely going to throw it away thought once you go to the Battlegrounds to get Gladiator gear."

Just like that!!! DDDD
+REP!!!

 

[Jaakko]

lol tyranid that is just how I feel about the quests. None of them interest me.

 

[Bismark101]

Well, what WoW is: It is a timemachine xD

No, seriously, you can sit there and play then when you stop you think you've played for about 1-2 hours, but when you look at the clock you see you've played about 5 hours!!!

Btw. I got a 51 warrior, stopped playin (almost) and almost start playing Wc3/Wc3TFT

 

[Pyritie]

I think wow has a lot of things for lots of people. There's the social interaction factor like Wulf said, there's the "rule the auction house" money-making factor, there's the endgame factor, there's the roleplaying factor, there's the raiding factor, there's the battlegrounds factor... lots of stuff.

 

[VGsatomi]

Quests are just a means of breaking up the tedium of leveling. Those alone are not supposed to entertain you through the entire game. 5-mans are just a means to gear you up for the early raids. PvPing is just a means to patch holes in gear that you couldn't find in 5-mans, as well as something to do during off-nights. The real game starts when you begin raiding....thats where the social aspect is, the teamwork aspect....and, of course, the addiction and bragging rights.
-VGsatomi

 

[~Void~]

You can't go back to the old WoW.

It's sad but true!

There is a way, but I'd rather not discuss it under the ever-watchful eyes of the Admins...

 

[LordDz]

I heard a rumor from my class mate that they will create servers that will use before TBC patches.

Guess it's a rumor that won't happen, but well ^^

 

[brad.dude03]

It's happened with other games, Dark Age of Camelot runs legacy/classic servers, but I highly doubt it will happen with WoW.

 

[Andreja]

Well cant tell u much from my exp but:
I started to play WoW at my cousins house i had a lvl5 draenei Pala when i first saw WoW it was awesome although the starting quests were boring i pulled it through.When i reached 20-23 i was totaly bored i said i cant take this anymore
Redridge Mountains i hate that area the most boring quests.Then i stopped playin.Until i realised that there were private servers played on some instaant 70's still play thou.But at a certain point i thought this isnt my real character i got it instatnly lvl 70 with full tier 4.And thats what gave me energy back to pull through the boring quests and lvl now im lvl 38 just been to SM its fun to raid instances and to raid orgrimar.I go to the battlegrounds often and in 200 cases we win ones (i play on Frostmane) im talking about Arathi Basin in WSG we win always but WSG is boring (at least to me).Its true Hordes are more proffesional but their also bastards!!Especialy on my server a lvl 70 troll hunter passes near me and kills me 4 no reason i mean cmon Fuck you (i wish i could speak Horde).

EDIT:I mean i raided Orgi on the private servers ^^
EDIT 2:And i got a blue helm ^^
EDIT 3:And yea i go to Battlegrounds for honor ^^

 

[Gladin]

You're wrong, it's not just killing monsters. I mean, yes, all the quests are usually "go there, kill 5 of that monster and 10 of those, then get they're stuff". But there are other quests too. Also, it's more than just questing and leveling, like the instants (dungeons). I don't play WoW, but someone I know does, and it really isn't that boring.

 

[Andreja]

I didnt say that WoW is boring it just has certain periods that i was totaly bored.I mean i love WoW.

 

[SantaBla]

How can somebody like this game? It is more boring than visiting grandparents who don't have a computer to begin with.

I played to a lvl 10 character and all the time it is just killing creeps and getting experience. Also all of the towns and all places are completely boring. I see no unique places.

I played until lvl 10 and at any part I was not forced to use my brain at all. It was just run in the countryside and kill creeps.
And furthermore the only way I would get addicted to this game is if I wanted to die of boredom. Good that I didn't have to pay anything for this tauren****.
I would have wanted to attack the allied players but everybody said I should have a higher lvl and I couldn't find any allied players in barrens.
So now I have to ask is there something I have missed or what makes WoW so addicting?

Considering that WoW is the current best selling MMORPGS on the market, and if you think it's boring, let's just say that you don't like MMORPGS and not only WoW because most of them are like that.

 

[inverted]

Jaako, this is what i thought when i first began the beta of WoW in 04.
But my friend kept me going until i was level 60 and now 70. End game is where it all is. If you can find fun people to play with to level 70 then begin arenas, pvp, raids all the good stuff and the game really is fun. I agree early - mid game is pretty boring but late game is where it is all bat.

 

[Andreja]

So true mid game is rly boring.Lvl 70-ing is the most fun part.
+rep for being totaly right

 

[inverted]

+rep to remind you to +rep me because you havent yet.

Edit: Nevermind, you did rep me. Scratch the above comment.

 

[Andreja]

Lol XDXDXD ty 4 the +rep xD

 

[HairStyle]

Its wrong wow is funny you dont just kill you also communicate whit others and do quests.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Its wrong wow is funny you dont just kill you also communicate whit others and do quests.

Okay, reading pointless text and killing. Oh wow, I'm feeling so much better already.

 

[Jaakko]

I hate WoW what can you do if you are against two enemy players other is an annoying rogue I hate those backstabber stunners and then when I fight it a priest comes from somewhere and heals it I hate WoW.

 

[CMarket]

What makes wow fun: PvP
25(40) men raids
Online play(so you can do it with friends and guilds)
Professions(especially if it's alchemy or engineering, oh and jewelcraft) Playing 24/7 so that you can one day pwn most people and give them that good old "Haha, I'm better then you" phrase
Raiding opposite factions main towns(if you have a fast internet, otherwise it's laggy as hell)

Oh and regarding your 2v1 problem, so what? I am sure there were a lot of times when you were with a friend and you pwned 1 player from the alliance(if you are horde that is). Besides if you are a good player you can easily take on 2, 3 players(if they are not 24/7 pros that hang around shattarah all day even though their gear is maxed and their professions), especially if you are a mage or warlock, or heck even a priest. Just fear/polly one sucker, then spam dots or presence+pyroblast and pwn the other. Use a healthstone or mana shard and quickly pwn the second guy. If you are a rouge just blind the bastards or if you are a druid, well you can do a huge variaty of things but your best bet would be to cast entangling roots and get out of the other guys range. It gets a little harder for the melee classes such as warriors and palladins, but if you are a good pvp warrior you can quickly kill them both since you are immune to a lot of stuff.

 

[Jaakko]

but if you are a good pvp warrior you can quickly kill them both since you are immune to a lot of stuff.

And how would I be immune?

 

[HappyTauren]

warriors are imune? HA! Teh phail. Warriors are the class that is probably the LEAST immune, yet they have loads of HP (I used to have a warlock that had more than a warrior, but that was just too hardcore). Armor means nothing if you encounter a powerfull spell caster. Means, you are dead.

 

[Thrikodius]

I never played WoW (never felt the interest for it). About 70% of my classmates play WoW and talk about it all the time. Sometimes it feels like my ears will blow up. The worst thing in my opinion is that Maghteridon suddenly is alive again. Illidan killed him in the Black Citadel (wich doesn't exist anymore). I saw them play it in an internet café once and my interest for it sank even lower then. I understood what they did but not why they even opened the crap. They constantly talk about what level they are at and after a while what kind of unit/hero (or whatever) they are gonna start over with when they got to level 70. You can do that in a very large bunch of maps in Wc3. Just download Custom Hero Arena or something and you can kill creeps and heroes there. And as a result of my opinions about Wow, about half of the WoW-players in my class say I'm stupid cause I play such a "bad" game. I would maybe consider buying it if Wc3 dies.

 

[Hawkwing]

Imo, the leveling up was the most exciting part.

Endgame is horrible.

PvP: Alterac Valley, Alterac Valley, Alterac Valley, Alterac Valley, Arenas, shall I go on?

PvE: Wait for a Group, Wait for a Group, Go to the instance portal, Wait for the group to get there, Wait for the pull, Wait for the kill.

Most boring game ever.

Though I see how some people could like this game, I personally hate it. I got 2 70's and I have about 7 level 35's. I don't wanna level up another alt or stay at 70. WotLK was the only thing that sounded exciting, and that isn't for awhile.

 

[Jaakko]

Yeah, WC3 is much more interesting than WoW.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

World of Walkcraft - I probably need to say more because some people won't understand the magnitude of that statement.

In World of Walkcraft, the landscapes are so huge that you must walk far and long to get anywhere fast. Blizzard recognized this as a major problem and created mounts. Even after creating a mount they realized... We need to make a faster mount! Since people were still complaining about going too slow, they created a flying mount. You can also pay money to fly on w/e beasties are at the flying place. AND FINALLY they have Hearthstone which is another way to make it easier to move around. Blizzard basically made a game so big and so slow paced, that they had to create 10 other things to speed it up. Here's how they get people to keep playing WoW, with the hope that one day they will finally get their good mount and enjoy the game in battlegrounds. I've seen my brother play it all the time after getting back from AIT (Advanced Infantry Training in the Military) and the only thing that is good about the game is battlegrounds. I ask him what's so great about the game and he replies, "Well once you get to level 70 and get your flying mount then the game becomes pretty fun in battlegrounds." Does that mean that the entire game is boring until you get to level 70? I think it does... WoW imo is the ultimate failure of all of Blizzards games. Koreans removed WoW from their pro sports, but still keep Starcraft which means WoW is an utter failure in pro gaming and is beaten by a game about 5 years older than it. The only thing good about WoW is that it sucked a bunch of stupid 8 year old anime loving idiots who are pouring their parents money into Blizzard so they can make the greatest RTS ever... Starcraft 2

 

[brad.dude03]

Imo, the leveling up was the most exciting part.

Endgame is horrible.

PvP: Alterac Valley, Alterac Valley, Alterac Valley, Alterac Valley, Arenas, shall I go on?

PvE: Wait for a Group, Wait for a Group, Go to the instance portal, Wait for the group to get there, Wait for the pull, Wait for the kill.

Most boring game ever.

Though I see how some people could like this game, I personally hate it. I got 2 70's and I have about 7 level 35's. I don't wanna level up another alt or stay at 70. WotLK was the only thing that sounded exciting, and that isn't for awhile.

Other way around dude, endgame is what you're paying for. 1) You never ever FUCKING EVER do a pickup group for instances. If you can't get in a raiding guild then it means you suck so much ass at a videogame that you should probably just kill yourself to spare the shame.

2) Arenas. Arenas ARE pvp. The only reason anyone does BG's anymore is for honor gear, and Arenas are where the fun is at.

Not to mention you can get some good world PVP going on.

And now on to Dreadnaught:

1) Get your fucking facts right. Starcraft came out in 1998. It's ten years old, not five.

2) Play the game yourself before you judge. Your brother probably sucks ass.

3) Ultimate failure? I don't think there is such a thing, besides Ghost.

4) If it's such a failure, then why do 10 MILLION PEOPLE play it? You can not like WoW for personal reasons all you want, but you can't even TRY to dispute it as a good game. It got top-notch reviews from EVERYONE for a reason: because Blizzard did a damned good job with it. If you don't like WoW then I find it incredibly unlikely that you will like any MMO games.

5) Who gives a fuck about Koreans? They're all a bunch of starcraft-addicted noobs anyway, so who cares? I don't give a damn what their professional games consist of, because we all know that it's just starcraft night and day until they die.

6) 80% of WoW players are over 20, just so you know. And if you want to experience any of the best parts of the game, you need a serious end-game guild, which are run by, and most often contain, adults. A shocker, I know, because the 8 year old anime loving idiots that you made mention to never get anywhere in the game.

7) ScII probably wont be anything special.

 

[~Void~]

Its wrong wow is funny you dont just kill you also communicate whit others and do quests.

WoW quests are either of 3 things: Retrieve X items, Kill X mobs or Talk to this person. They aren't quests so much as rewarding you for slaying enemies.

Also, you can communicate with others in other games, or better yet, in real life! Whoa!

1) You never ever FUCKING EVER do a pickup group for instances. If you can't get in a raiding guild then it means you suck so much ass at a videogame that you should probably just kill yourself to spare the shame.

Unless you're godlike like me who got to tier 6 by joining my friends' raids or even pickup-grouping Illidan.

6) 80% of WoW players are over 20, just so you know. And if you want to experience any of the best parts of the game, you need a serious end-game guild, which are run by, and most often contain, adults. A shocker, I know, because the 8 year old anime loving idiots that you made mention to never get anywhere in the game.

I'd like to say 80% of crackheads are over 20 as well.

4) If it's such a failure, then why do 10 MILLION PEOPLE play it? You can not like WoW for personal reasons all you want, but you can't even TRY to dispute it as a good game. It got top-notch reviews from EVERYONE for a reason: because Blizzard did a damned good job with it. If you don't like WoW then I find it incredibly unlikely that you will like any MMO games.

And 95% of them probably because they are addicted. It's not that it's particularly more fun than other games, it's just so damn addictive.

2) Arenas. Arenas ARE pvp. The only reason anyone does BG's anymore is for honor gear, and Arenas are where the fun is at.

Battlegrounds are DotA whereas arenas are Naruto Showdown. Sensible people don't like either of them, but at least DotA has an objective.

 

[Thrikodius]

My dad once told me that there is no bad music, only music you don't like.
WoW isn't really bad, it's a great game but then there are people who don't like it. There are games you like and games you don't like. I bet there are a lot of people here that would say the other games I play suck. Everything here goes down to opinion. I'm not saying that you aren't allowed to have your opinion or to discuss it. Only that I found a little perspective on this issue. The main reason to why there is war is that some people can't accept others opinions.

 

[brad.dude03]

Precisely.

That's what i'm trying to tell these people. You may not like WoW, and that's fine, but you can't deny that it's not a well-made game.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

ROFLMAO your telling me to get my facts straight? Your such an idiot because what I meant by that is that SC is 5 years older than WoW you dumb@$$.

And WoW is not a well made game. It is a piece of crap that sucks stupid anime loving freaks like you into it where you pay lots of money to fund better games later.

 

[brad.dude03]

Dumbass? Real fucking mature.

And yes, it is a well-made game. Everyone agrees that it's a well-made game. Fucking IGN gives it a 9.4, so its a well-made game. Just because you blindly oppose it in your ignorance, doesn't mean it's bad.

Further more, I'm not an 'anime-loving freak' as I don't watch anime at all, and for the record, I think it's safe to say that i'm far more intelligent than you. Gratz.

You have no arguement besides "ZOMFG WOW IS TEH SUXXRZ ONLY TEH STU1D ANIM3 FR33KS PLAYZ IT!1!1!!11!!!!", thus your point is null and void.

And for the record, I don't even play WoW, I just hate it when stupid pricks like you blindly bash it because you have nothing better to do.

 

[The Mystic Cow]

Ok, I am the Peacemaker! WoW, (Like it or not) Is the best of it's kind. If you don't like this very much, you will most likely not like others. (You might like Guild Wars because of a diffrent approach) And WoW isn't anime even, just throwing that out there. It may have a cartoonish artform, but that's just a style. I guess I can see how you got them confused. And personally, I don't really like starcraft, lol. So oppionions are had by everyone, some contriversial, some not! So I hope I helped in some sort of way. Peace

The Mystic Cow

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

It is a piece of crap that sucks stupid anime loving freaks like you into it where you pay lots of money to fund better games later.

Because clearly, Warcraft is synonymous with Japanese Animation, and funding better games is a bad thing.

Sure, buddy. You keep doing what you do, which is...what is it that you do again? Insult games you obviously don't know very well? Is that it?

 

[Beau]

It's boring to you because you are level 10 and can't do pvp, end game raiding, visit neat places or battle awesome creatures. Also it's more funner with parties and stuff... and there are extremely challenging and frusterating battles.