[Altered Melee] WarCraft III: Eye of the Storm

[Vinz]

I love my old project so much that I made 4 pastebins with a timeframe of ~ a month just for it. xD

 

[aple]

It's not much of a problem, it's just a minor inconvenience. I more or less already had everything I needed pulled from it. I've kinda WarCraft'd myself to death the past 2 months. But I think I might get back in the mood soon.

Anyway, I think I'll start a discussion on story:

I do kinda have a few things. I originally planned for the Blood Elf Campaign to be a 2-part deal, where you back-to-back basically play 2 different campaigns in one. First mission would be Blood Elf, then the second would be Human, third Blood Elf, fourth Human, etc. That'd go on for like 24-25 missions. Some ideas consisted of the main character(s) being from a section of Blood Elves that from the start considered Kael to be bat-shit insane, and you play them. They end up encountering a group of "High" Elves that immediately become enemies with them because they call themselves Blood Elves. This is taking place after Kael joins forces with Illidan and during the rest of WC3 but before the events of WoW. Along with them, they encounter a group of Kael's Blood Elves that decide they are traitors and attempt to kill them. This was going to be an on-off thing. The other parts of the campaign would consist of fighting off ridiculous amounts of Undead and remanent Orcs in Lordaeron. Now, as for a real plot...I don't have much of one yet. I've scrapped this idea for the Campaign, however. It may or may not still be canon to what I have planned, but I will likely use this as a Demo campaign for my mod.

As for the Demon Campaign, I was thinking it would take place at roughly the same time, and it would include Kargath Bladefist and Kazzak the Supreme. Maybe even a Fel Vol'jin? Not quite sure yet. Basically, this would just involve wreaking total havoc. Or at least that's all I have planned so far.

The next campaign would be a Naga Campaign. This will likely involve Illidan, Vash, and Kael, since almost all the Naga are on their side. I don't have any ideas for them yet, but since the whole crew was broken up at some point (I don't quite know where), it'd likely involve that.

I don't have the 4th new race planned yet. I don't even have any candidates.

Nothing is yet planned for campaigns for Human, Orc, Undead, and Night Elf either.

Anyway, what does everyone think of this?

 

[aple]

Bump: Updated with a poll.

Vote on any of the 7 options available. Removing formations, adding SC2-like pathing, or SC1-like pathing,

Be sure to keep in mind that you can vote for as many as you like!

1. Formations cannot be 100% removed, but when they are turned "Off" via the in-game UI, units can group up tightly instead of going into formation with a trigger.
2. SC2-Like grouping and pathing is possible, as I've made it half-work. I'll have to experiment a lot and get help from my cousin again to do this, though. It could end up taking a long time to get working.
3. The way units path in SC1 is a bit different then SC2 and WC3, they go on their own path and do not group up at the target-location, and they can also deviate away from their target-point occasionally.
4. WC2's pathing is very bad, I will not try to recreate it as it will make it very hard to micro. But making them go on separate paths and then meet at the target-point, grouping up, was what I had in mind.
5. Delays between responses should be self-explanatory.
6. Air units in SC1 and SC2 "Glide". And what this means is, when they are ordered to attack after being ordered to move, they will continue to move to the target and shoot at the same time as long as their target is within their attack angle. This created some really fun micro in SC1, but in SC2 it's as not possible, with a theory being group separation has priority over gliding.
7. Group separation I find to be one of the most annoying mechanics in WC3 and SC2 as it makes microing air units more difficult and less viable. Removing it all-together can create some really interesting air compositions like there was in SC1.

You can vote for any you like. I have already voted for 1, 6, and 7.

 

[Eagle XI]

Voted for 1-3-5. Had understood something completely different on 6., got what you actually meant after reading the past and like to add my vote now but doesnt let me, so consider my +1 there too.
A real shame if that annoying formation cant be turned off completely, i hate it when the units dont immediately evade when ordered but first wait on the unit with priority before them to move, so they are in their formation position, then finally move but its been already too late for taking action.
Its a hastely recycled derelict of an very early version when this game's system was entirely different (see. alpha version with hero groups, where it probably made sense). Besides it forces to micromanage each order manually on every ground unit with a collision size greater than footman and unnecessarily encourages excessive dividing into more control groups than actually required just to avoid the problems in case of a possible scenarios like the retreat one ive given above.
One thing i did like about the sc2 flyers is that some can shoot whilst strafing sideways but thats completely another story.

 

[aple]

One thing i did like about the sc2 flyers is that some can shoot whilst strafing sideways but thats completely another story.

That is also completely possible in WarCraft III with similar hacky solutions I'll use for most of the other stuff on the list. I'm not sure if it's 100% recreateable but I'm sure I can do something like that.

Also, that is some of the things I was thinking I'd want to prevent using some of these, but I just don't know for sure if everyone would be okay with that.

I want real good improvements that a large amount of the competitive WC3 scene will like, but I also want to make those same things good for more casual play. =)

Also, I think I should say that my idea of balance is quite different from Blizzard's. The more I think about balance, the more I see that Blizzard's idea of it only works for so long.

 

[Kyrbi0]

How did you add a Poll to an existing Thread?

 

[aple]

How did you add a Poll to an existing Thread?

At the OP, under "Thread Options" if a poll does not already exist there will be an option to add one.

Also, if you are interested in seeing any of those mechanics please make a vote. =p

 

[aple]

Update: I'm a bit tired of having this issue where I can't get my MPQ set up right to make the rest of the mod work. So instead, I'm just gonna get my test map out there, that I used to get feedback from my friends, so I can get feedback on balance, design and let people see what I've done.

This test map will not be on the Nirvana Mod, so the custom race will not be selectable in the pre-game screen. To be Blood Elves, just select Human and you'll get Blood Elf starting units. You should still be able to play against Human AI though.

I have to get it a little bit more polished up and add credits into the map, so this will come out sometimes today or tomorrow, and if not then still expect it soon.

 

[Vinz]

You haven't enabled Local Files?

 

[aple]

You haven't enabled Local Files?

I have, but that's not the problem. My files seem to work fine, but when I try to set up the Nirvana launcher to launch with my settings, the races I want and my MPQ, it gives an error, goes into the game, and no changes are made. =p

 

[aple]

This is still on my mind to release soon but I've become extremely busy as of late and haven't had time to prepare the map at all.

In the mean time, for stuff that may come in the next release here are some ideas I have:

I want to buff the extremely under-used heroes such as the Keeper of the Grove, Paladin, Mountain King, and Far Seer. I've already put buffs towards the Dreadlord and Crypt Lord.

Here are some ideas so far:

For the Keeper of the Grove, I was thinking of removing the tree requirement from Force Of Nature, but still letting it take trees down. This can allow for some clutch captures, by using it infront of retreating units and blocking their path.

For the Far Seer, I was thinking of increasing it's starting life by some or buffing Feral Spirits somehow. Way for that could be increasing their health, making it cost less mana and/or making them stay longer, or making all levels have permanent invisibility and/or critical strike instead of just the second and last levels having it.

For the Paladin, I was thinking of making Holy Light a very slight AoE spell. This will make it a little bit more difficult to target but can also make it much more worth using in the early game especially against Undead. Not too sure if this would end up becoming far better then Archmages, but it's a good start.

 

[Eagle XI]

Paladin's fundamental problem is lack of killing power compared to other 3. It doesnt matter for the opponent if a hero is running around invulnerable aslong the only thing he can do is throwing around weak burst heals and (generally) being a zero threat.

As for Far Seer's, well Chain Lightning is awesome, however with TFT came a shitton of magic immune stuff into the game and ofcourse those are exactly the type of unit(All with above average HP pool for his role) youd like to see getting hit with the spell.

The whole point of Force of Nature is the tree requirement, otherwise you could use anything else like bears.

Crypt Lord is just an lacking implentation of an otherwise thought out solid idea.
He was supposed able to Burrow, in order to fulfill his brawler purpose properly since otherwise it has to rely on itemization ( HP and vamp potions) or external means (DK nearby with deathcoil) to heal up during combat besides creep regen (out of combat).
One of his audio lines say something along the lines of "taste the poison of nerub"(atleast on the german client), implying the strong poison passive was originally his.
Another line says "i devour the living and the dead", implying he had cannibalize at one point(however it may got scrapped in favor of burrow regen, which then again didnt get implemented due to .. whatevs...)
Another thing worth mentioning is the similarity between Impale skill and the way SC zerg Lurker attacks. It may have been used to be available during burrow only.
Whats currently in as spiked carapace may have been intended to be an more complicated passive: The spikes was to come out only when burrowed(suggested at his morph anims), however the +armor part would be active at all times.

Mountain King.. the true berserker. He works IF can get nearby things to hack and smash. However anyone with an functional brain will snare and gun him down on the way there before he can start getting shit done. For longst i thought about giving him an 'combat leap' initial skill to help him with bridging the gap between, i believe that way he can atleast kill something before dying instead just scratching on the armor of things.
Another impopular idea was to give an slight resistance (about 20% - 30% someth) against ranged only attacks to precisely help him with this survivability issue.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Paladin's fundamental problem is lack of killing power compared to other 3. It doesnt matter for the opponent if a hero is running around invulnerable aslong the only thing he can do is throwing around weak burst heals and (generally) being a zero threat.

As for Far Seer's, well Chain Lightning is awesome, however with TFT came a shitton of magic immune stuff into the game and ofcourse those are exactly the type of unit(All with above average HP pool for his role) youd like to see getting hit with the spell.

The whole point of Force of Nature is the tree requirement, otherwise you could use anything else like bears.

Crypt Lord is just an lacking implentation of an otherwise thought out solid idea.
He was supposed able to Burrow, in order to fulfill his brawler purpose properly since otherwise it has to rely on itemization ( HP and vamp potions) or external means (DK nearby with deathcoil) to heal up during combat besides creep regen (out of combat).
One of his audio lines say something along the lines of "taste the poison of nerub"(atleast on the german client), implying the strong poison passive was originally his.
Another line says "i devour the living and the dead", implying he had cannibalize at one point(however it may got scrapped in favor of burrow regen, which then again didnt get implemented due to .. whatevs...)
Another thing worth mentioning is the similarity between Impale skill and the way SC zerg Lurker attacks. It may have been used to be available during burrow only.
Whats currently in as spiked carapace may have been intended to be an more complicated passive: The spikes was to come out only when burrowed(suggested at his morph anims), however the +armor part would be active at all times.

Mountain King.. the true berserker. He works IF can get nearby things to hack and smash. However anyone with an functional brain will snare and gun him down on the way there before he can start getting shit done. For longst i thought about giving him an 'combat leap' initial skill to help him with bridging the gap between, i believe that way he can atleast kill something before dying instead just scratching on the armor of things.
Another impopular idea was to give an slight resistance (about 20% - 30% someth) against ranged only attacks to precisely help him with this survivability issue.

I was with you until Crypt Lord (and to a lesser extent, the Mountain King).

Thing is, I look to the Crypt Lord as an excellent example of hero design, fitting both Role & Theme ideally. He is literally a pure Tank with almost literally no other facets... And that's the point. No Hero should be able to survive solely on their own... That is to say, I believe each Hero has definite strengths & weaknesses, and that those (especially weaknesses) are intentional so as to encourage partnership & support. Warcraft 3 was originally a Hero-based RPG-styled game, but became more strongly an Army-based RTS-styled game (with some definite RPG-elements existing, granted).

Anyway, saying "The Crypt Lord is great, except he can't heal himself"... I would argue that's kinda the point. He can sit & tank damage, but eventually must be healed, necessitating teamwork (either via another Hero (usually DK, though Dreadlord can support him in terms of disabling his attackers (Sleep) & providing Vampirism (Aura), or via Sacrificial Skulls), or via units (the Obsidian Statutes come to mind)).
Same deal with the Mountain King. Never mind his massively powerful ranged 'nuke' of Storm Bolt ("hold on a sec, I'll get to ya!"), but any issues with mobility are likely intentional; he's a KILLER queen in close combat with Thunder Clap & Bash. One can always Slow down your enemies (Sorceress) or keep him Healed (Paladin) or buffed armor to last longer (Inner Fire) or buy him Speed items (Boots)... Moreover his Avatar ultimate really empowers him to close that distance, shrugging off Disables (ensnare, slow, etc) with ease.

Anyway, just a thought. Perhaps instead of making Heroes with less weaknesses, consider weakening currently "overly powered by themselves" heroes, i.e. the infamous Blademaster, Demon Hunter, Warden, etc.

Just my 27 cents.

 

[Eagle XI]

No Hero should be able to survive solely on their own... That is to say, I believe each Hero has definite strengths & weaknesses, and that those (especially weaknesses) are intentional so as to encourage partnership & support.

if there was forever instead the ... i could have agreed. Every hero needs to be able to stand ground on his own(scaling proportionally to his level), in order to remain functional entities. For the original intent was them to be troop-leader figures, in almost every strategy game that sported a party system(referring to titles like Homam,Disciples,AoW, hell even Dragonshard, okay Spellforce is an exception but technically you arent in a party there, i mean its not forced,oh...) the leader figure always is able to kick any basic troop's regular ass by default(pre gaining any level that is).

I also find that intentionally leaving an additional obvious flaw open that can(or rather will) interfere with an hero's native, natural weakness resulting out of his design in unintentional ways, to be rather amateurish. Artificially adding more risk to restrict his usage into some conditions only renders him further unreliable than you can think because certain functions are more universal than others thus have more applicable areas in any battlefield throughout the game, which in turn brings us to current result with most of the heroes roster remaining unused due to being only of use at a certain niche which you will rarely find yourself in under normal circumstances.
The requirement of an partnership further contributes into this: Why should i even bother getting this hero if it needs to get duoed with another in order to function properly, when that other guy can solo the map practically on his own with much lesser effort required ?
Ofcourse requirement of external support in order to function can exist and is fully encouraged on casters to be so. However as a principle a leveling unit shouldnt completely depend on the presence of another in order to do something else than dying on the spot.

EDIT: This isnt about Crypt Lord or MK btw, i do somewhat agree those 2 currently belong into the rather not so broken category of all heroes ingame.

 

[aple]

I like the discussion so far guys, thanks. =)

Personally, I see no problem with the Crypt Lord as is on a 1-on-1 thing with minimal spells used, but that's not how WC3 goes and that is why the Crypt Lord is underused.

He's not good in most parts of the game due to how badly it's starting capabilities are. I was thinking of giving him a Non-Hero Burrow ability, that just comes by default (Or possibly when it's researched), but I dunno if that'd be a bit much or not. That might turn it into a more assassin-type hero, and I wanna keep it's tanky/heavy offense role.

As for the Mountain King, would replacing one of his abilities with a Jump ability be too much? I wouldn't quite know which one to replace but, that sounds like a way to help him out. Or maybe some kind of Berserk ability (Like the Troll Berserker's ability).

That "Lack of Killing Power" for the Paladin can be more then made up for by having an AoE Heal ability, keeping more then 1 unit alive using it could EXTREMELY turn battles. It's AoE range could scale up with levels too.

But what if I just replaced Holy Shield with another spell? Holy Shield, although it is a good spell, I just don't find useful as an actual spell on the Paladin. It's EXTREMELY useful as a potion, but as for being an actual thing on the Paladin, it doesn't really do much but be there.

Ideas for spells to replace it could be:

A knockback spell.
A damage or AoE damage spell.
A stun or slow spell.

Why replace so many spells? Because these spells that I am saying to replace, I feel is fundamentally why the hero isn't so useful. Because some of their spells are so bad that you don't even want to get them until it's all you have to get. Like Holy Shield.

Anyway, saying "The Crypt Lord is great, except he can't heal himself"... I would argue that's kinda the point. He can sit & tank damage, but eventually must be healed, necessitating teamwork

That's just not quite how WarCraft III is played, though. Not until mid/late-game, anyway. And by then the Crypt Lord is actually not really that worth it for tanking because Undead has so many more options that do that job so much better and can heal themselves easier. (Such as Abominations or Meat Wagons even.)

 

[Vinz]

You could replace Thunderclap with a jump that berserks on landing. And give the Paladin a holy Thunderclap.

 

[Eagle XI]

You could replace Thunderclap with a jump that berserks on landing.

/Cptpicardfacepalm

You know, there is a good reason those 3 are seperate skills.

As for the Mountain King, would replacing one of his abilities with a Jump ability be too much? I wouldn't quite know which one to replace but, that sounds like a way to help him out. Or maybe some kind of Berserk ability (Like the Troll Berserker's ability).

He has a ranged stun, an self-use aoe stun, passive chance to stun and an berserk button as ultimate. His skillset goes "stun-stun-stun" minus the ultimate. That said berserk is covered at the ultimate thus you can discard adding another of same purpose and tweak that a lil bit instead.
As for the leap, well replace any of those micro-stun's and you break the way he functions. Maybe he could gain an 'dash' innate that hurls him towards when engaging the target. (see. SC2 protoss zealots skill)

But what if I just replaced Holy Shield with another spell?
Ideas for spells to replace it could be:
A knockback spell.
A damage or AoE damage spell.
A stun or slow spell.

Nothing in the game has knockback at the moment and i dont really see how it could be of use to him. You probably thought would help with keeping him alive via throwing back the melee attackers, however mostly its the ranged dps that melts an hero with melee units used to keep the victim in control.
Besides i dont find it that hilarious inside an RTS.

In order to add him a stun you'd need to substract one from the stun-machine. (MK that is) Thats because no other faction ingame sports an hero with that many disables, thus to add another one upon that would be truely overkill.
Slow purpose could be added over an Judgement/Exorcism spell however would overlap with another faction's hero's (Warden's) skillset. (since you will probably have to base it on shadowstrike)

Maybe an self-aoe 'pillar of light' type spell that slows nearby hostiles for some seconds on use would function.

Think ive figured out something for Holy Light: What if on each use heals a lesser amount on himself too ? And when used on an Undead to damage him would buff Paladin's dmg temporarily.
Footnote: Could give this minor dmg buff to that 'pillar' one above instead.

That "Lack of Killing Power" for the Paladin can be more then made up for by having an AoE Heal ability, keeping more then 1 unit alive using it could EXTREMELY turn battles. It's AoE range could scale up with levels too.

You probably mean something like full amount on main target and lesser amount on all caught within secondary radius. Needs to have an upper limit for number of affected at a time within the AoE id say.

 

[aple]

He has a ranged stun, an self-use aoe stun, passive chance to stun and an berserk button as ultimate. His skillset goes "stun-stun-stun" minus the ultimate. That said berserk is covered at the ultimate thus you can discard adding another of same purpose and tweak that a lil bit instead.
As for the leap, well replace any of those micro-stun's and you break the way he functions. Maybe he could gain an 'dash' innate that hurls him towards when engaging the target. (see. SC2 protoss zealots skill)

Yeah I always thought the Mountain King was a bit overkill in that regard but because of how badly he scales into the late game and how useless it is in the early game it was more then made up for. I would of course completely replace one of it's abilities so that he isn't a Stun Machine, possibly Thunder Clap or the Passive, as I don't really like the idea behind it OR Critical Strike. (Random Chance-Based things are just not good for an RTS, I don't even like the Dice Roll damage...)

Nothing in the game has knockback at the moment and i dont really see how it could be of use to him. You probably thought would help with keeping him alive via throwing back the melee attackers, however mostly its the ranged dps that melts an hero with melee units used to keep the victim in control.
Besides i dont find it that hilarious inside an RTS.

In order to add him a stun you'd need to substract one from the stun-machine. (MK that is) Thats because no other faction ingame sports an hero with that many disables, thus to add another one upon that would be truely overkill.
Slow purpose could be added over an Judgement/Exorcism spell however would overlap with another faction's hero's (Warden's) skillset. (since you will probably have to base it on shadowstrike)

Maybe an self-aoe 'pillar of light' type spell that slows nearby hostiles for some seconds on use would function.

Think ive figured out something for Holy Light: What if on each use heals a lesser amount on himself too ? And when used on an Undead to damage him would buff Paladin's dmg temporarily.
Footnote: Could give this minor dmg buff to that 'pillar' one above instead.

I have a knockback system in my mod. It wouldn't be hard to make a knockback spell for him. I think it would be useful for knocking certain targets out of the fight so your opponent cannot benefit from them for a few moments, which I feel like can seriously turn things around. (Knocking Priests or Bears away, or other really good spellcasters, or just taking a single melee unit or two out so you don't have that extra damage on you.)

Well, what your suggesting kinda sounds like what I was going to do anyway except I was going to make it be an upgraded Holy Light.

It'd be an extremely small AoE, only healing/damaging like 3-4 units at most, MAYBE 5, but that's so much better then how it functions already.

I think the Paladin could really benefit from a Stun though, to stop targets chasing him since he's a very slow hero, and it would be much more useful then the nitch/clutch Divine Shield.

 

[aple]

Well, the system to make group movement like in SC1 has been finished. So if that is ever wanted for this mod, it can be easily implemented. Once I fix leaks and make it more efficient, I will put it into the Spell Section.

Here's the post:

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/2608047-post11.html

 

[aple]

So, the Nirvana Mod that I was using as a base just got an update and is suppose to come with documentation to describe how the stuff works, so that means this might be getting an update soon.

But looking back on this, a lot of my unit design sucks.... I might restart it all from scratch, or I might cancel this entirely and focus on my other project that I think is designed a lot better then this.