[Altered Melee] WarCraft III: Eye of the Storm

[aple]

Update: Added a poll. Here are an explanation of some things.

Be sure to keep in mind that you can vote for as many as you like!

Obviously some of these options can conflict with each other, so if the conflicting mechanics come up on top I'll do another poll to see which one is more popular.

1. Formations cannot be 100% removed, but when they are turned "Off" via the in-game UI, units can group up tightly instead of going into formation with a trigger.
2. SC2-Like grouping and pathing is possible, as I've made it half-work. I'll have to experiment a lot and get help from my cousin again to do this, though. It could end up taking a long time to get working.
3. The way units path in SC1 is a bit different then SC2 and WC3, they go on their own path and do not group up at the target-location, and they can also deviate away from their target-point occasionally.
4. WC2's pathing is very bad, I will not try to recreate it as it will make it very hard to micro. But making them go on separate paths and then meet at the target-point, grouping up, was what I had in mind.
5. Delays between responses should be self-explanatory.
6. Air units in SC1 and SC2 "Glide". And what this means is, when they are ordered to attack after being ordered to move, they will continue to move to the target and shoot at the same time as long as their target is within their attack angle. This created some really fun micro in SC1, but in SC2 it's as not possible, with a theory being group separation has priority over gliding.
7. Group separation I find to be one of the most annoying mechanics in WC3 and SC2 as it makes microing air units more difficult and less viable. Removing it all-together can create some really interesting air compositions like there was in SC1.

You can vote for any you like. I have already voted for 1, 6, and 7.

Introduction

This aims to be a full-fledged mod, as an Unofficial Expansion Pack, using the open-source work done by this amazing guy!

This means that there shall be some very nice features, such as -

• Improved Shaders
• Real-Time Shadows
• Using the Handicap Menu method, custom races will be selectable in the pre-game screen just like other races!
• Everything will be separate from Vanilla WarCraft III, meaning no replacing files and no having to uninstall the mod to play vanilla WC3.

It aims to add a ridiculous amount of additional content, 4 new races, 8 new Campaigns, one per race, new units for each race, and much more! I am already off to a colorful start with what I'm doing. Currently, the story is highly underdeveloped to nonexistent. There are no new melee maps yet. But, by the time an official release comes along, at least half of the features above will be ready.

Feature List

Things I plan to do -

• Rebalance all four standard races, to enable much more compositions, unit diversity, and improve the fun of melee.
• Make the game just as reliant on Macro as it is on Micro.
• Improve mechanics already in the game.
• Add new mechanics (Using resources on Hive, many new things are already added).
• Add 4 new unique (As unique as I can get them, anyway) races. One race is already implemented.
• Create one, 10-mission long campaign PER RACE, both standard and custom races. (That's 8 Campaigns! Wow!)
• (Try to) Double the content of WarCraft III.
• Make this feel like a real expansion, changing some mechanics, adding a new hero per race (For a total of 5 per race), adding new units for each race, and adding new mechanics to the game.

Things I have already done -

• As I mentioned, one race is already implemented. Blood Elves.
• Added one new Mercenary hero with new spells.
• Undead has already received a lot of rework, spanning across almost every unit and the Dreadlord.
• Night Elf, being the next race on my list to receive work, has had a few changes as well.
• I have made half of a Campaign for the Blood Elves, however it will not be the final campaign. It will be scrapped and replaced with something better. (I may use it as a demo for critique purposes to see if I should do it alone or get help)

• Custom Races selectable at the pregame screen:

(The UI color and the background are part of the Nirvana mod, and not my doing.)

My Goal

• I want this to be a more finished version of WarCraft III's melee. I want people to choose this over The Frozen Throne for competitive play. I want this to be as close to Blizzard quality as I can get it. And to top that off (Like I said earlier), I want this to feel like a full, legitimate expansion.

• All units that are underutilized, or not used at all, will receive changes to try and make them be seen more. Units that are seen too much will likely remain mostly unchanged, unless it's actually a problem.

Now that this is all out of the way, here is a list of all the units, and changes to units. I'll start off with the Blood Elf units.

Royal Blue = Magic
Green = Physical
Purple (Orchid) = Mental
Orange = Artificial
Magenta = Summons

These different types will be used in gameplay later down the development road.

Blood Elves

List of Units

Swordsman

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Melee standard unit.

Stats

DPS: 11 - 13
Health: 390 (+60 with Magic Defend Upgrade)
Armor: 1
Speed: Average

Abilities

• When activated, grants the unit Magic Immunity but reduces movement speed by 33%

Credits

Icon by: Frankster
Model by: Elenai

Archer

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Basic ranged unit and excellent scout.

Stats

DPS: 12 - 14
Health: 320
Armor: 0
Speed: Fast

Abilities

• Allows the Archer to reveal invisible units.

• Units within range of this ability will be revealed in the Fog of War, regardless of them not being within sight range.

Credits

Icon by: LiOneSS
Model by: Frankster

Crusader

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Heavy mounted support unit.

Stats

DPS: 18 - 23.33
Health: 700
Armor: 4
Speed: Fast

Abilities

• Hunter: Summons one Hunter to fight for you. Hunters are fast, with low-medium attack and low-medium health.

Credits

Icon by: Mr.Goblin
Model by: Frankster

Arcane Tank

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Long-Range heavy support siege unit. Can deploy into a very strong Area-Control unit with an Anti-Air attack.

Abilities

• Becomes immobile, but gains an anti-air attack, more range, and more damage.

Credits

Icon by: Frankster
Model by: Frankster

Arcane Construct

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Powerful melee unit. Can repair itself. Has Chaos Damage.

Stats

Credits

Icon by: Me, based off of the model.
Model by: AndrewOverload519

Arcane Spell Breaker

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Stats

DPS: 10 - 12.94
Health: 650 (+60 with Magic Defend)
Armor: 2
Speed: Average

Abilities

• Targets an enemy unit in range with the most positive buffs. Destroys all the buffs on the target unit, dealing (# Of Buffs x 10) damage. Also units who are Buff Burned will take damage over time. Expiration Timers and Auras are not calculated in the damage, nor are they removed.

• Takes up to 100 mana from the target unit. Costs 25 mana, resulting in 75 mana gained.

Credits

Icon by: NFWar
Model by: Blizzard Entertainment

Blood Caster

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Offensive Spellcaster. Damage is upgraded by Spell Focus.

Stats

DPS: 4 - 5
Health: 290
Armor: 0
Speed: Average

Abilities

• Restores 20 hitpoints to up to 4 friendly units in the Area of Effect.

• Channels for 3 seconds, then at the target area a fan of knives goes off.

• The target unit will have a 100% chance to miss normal attacks for the next 6 seconds.

Credits

Icon by: Elenai
Model by: Elenai

Spell Binder

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Defensive Spellcaster. Damage is upgraded by Spell Focus.

Stats

DPS: 4 - 5
Health: 290
Armor: 0
Speed: Average

Abilities

• The target friendly unit has it's armor slightly increased. Also gives the target unit an immolation for the duration of the spell.

• Places a ward. All friendly units within range of the ward will receive 4 additional armor.

• Teleports the target unit to your highest-tier Town Hall.

Credits

Icon by: Blizzard Entertainment
Model by: Skipper

Dragonhawk Rider

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Air Superiority Unit

Stats

DPS: 10.85 - 12.57
Health: 575
Armor: 1
Speed: Fast

Abilities

• Stops the target unit from moving. Does damage over time.

• Prevents all ranged units in the area of effect from attacking.

Credits

Icon by: Blizzard Entertainment
Model by: Blizzard Entertainment

Nether Phoenix

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Extremely powerful flying Siege Unit.

Stats

DPS: 32.11 - 48.17
Health: 825
Armor: 2
Speed: Fast

Abilities

• Causes the Nether Phoenix to do 7 - 15 extra magic damage. Damage is upgraded by Spell Focus.

Credits

Icon by: Blizzard Entertainment.
Model by: Me.

Human

I HAVE DECIDED TO EXPERIMENT WITH THIS MORE BEFORE MAKING IT IN THE FINAL RELEASE. This will not actually delay the release, it just won't be in the first release.

List of Units

Mountain King
The Mountain King is the first unit to receive a different damage type for one of it's spells. This is mainly experimental.

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Abilities

• Storm Bolt deals 150 Normal Damage and 200 Magic Damage @ Level 3.

Undead

List of Units

Dreadlord

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Abilities

• (Replaces Sleep) Temporarily takes control over the target enemy unit. Once the spell wears off, the unit's ownership changes back to the original owner.

Crypt Fiend

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Stats

DPS: 7.4 - 8.5
Health: 320
Armor: 1
Speed: Fast

Abilities

• Binds a target enemy air unit in webbing, forcing it to the ground. Webbed units can be hit as though they were land units.

When attacking an Organic unit, the Crypt Fiend's attack returns organic material from that unit which can be used for it's spells. Also causes 3 - 5 extra damage against Organic units.

Summons two Cryptlings with low health, and low damage. Cryptlings also have the Harvest Flesh Ability, the mana is returned to their summoner.

The Crypt Fiend burrows underground, making it invisible by enemies. When burrowed, the Crypt Fiend has extremely fast health regeneration.

Necromancer

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Supportive Spellcaster.

Abilities

• When Skeletal Mastery is researched, you have three options per Necromancer: Switch to Mages, Switch to Archers, and switch to Zombies. Switching to Mages makes the second unit summoned be a Skeletal Mage, which has Magic damage. Switch to Archers makes the second unit summoned be a Skeletal Archer, which has Piercing damage. The final option, Switch to Zombies, replaces both summoned units with a single Zombie. A Zombie has much more health and damage, and lasts significantly longer. But it costs more mana, and moves slower then the other summons.

Ghoul

Stats, Abilities, Credits

Stats

DPS: 7.8 - 9.5
Health: 370
Armor: 2
Speed: Fast

Abilities

Consumes a nearby corpse to heal 25 hit points per second.

Instantly kills this unit, allowing it's corpse to be used once decay is finished.

Mercenaries

Heroes

Grandmaster of Arms

Abilities & Stats

Stats:

Agility • 21
Strength • 18
Intelligence • 13

Agility • 2
Strength • 2.2
Intelligence • 1.7

Abilities:

•The Grandmaster leaps at the target unit, stunning and damaging them.

•Throws an exploding metal flask of combustible fluid at the target unit, engulfing it in flames and reducing it's armor.

•Performs 3 extremely quick consecutive attacks that do twice as much damage, the third attack knocks back the attacked unit.

•Activate to fully restore health and mana over 6 seconds, but cannot move or use other spells for the duration. Has a long cooldown.

Demon Showoff Screens

Fel Orc Burning Berserker -

Berserkers get redder the longer they attack!

Fel Draenei Lurker -

Arsonery Spell

Rough amount of damage done by Arsonery spell on the Fel Draenei Lurker. It deals 25 damage every second for 30 seconds. Since it is cast on a building, it is unlikely it will be removed from spells like Abolish Magic or Spell Steal.

Additional Credits

deathismyfriend - For numerous accounts of help with triggers, and probably more to come. Also for some of his guides.
IcemanBo - For trigger help.
fucckz - For making his mod, and for making it Open Source, and for some help learning how his mod works.
Meticulous - For more trigger help.
Weep's DDS - Helps a lot with making some of the spells.
Jump System by Paladon
Knockback System by Paldon
Nichilus - For a lot of trigger help as well.
My Cousin who has helped me with a lot of things coding-wise

Everything not credited (If something YOU did is not credited, please let me know) was done by me. All terrain, triggers, object data, artwork, concepts, all done by me at my computer with a keyboard and mouse and a shitty PC. =p

Eye of the Storm is a temporary name and could change at a later date.

This mod will likely go through many stages of experimentation, as this is the first time I have tried to do real balancing. Ultimately, if something is received negatively or results in OPness or boring play, changes will be made.



I have also decided to start working on a side project that will be a branch between WarCraft II and WarCraft III. I am working on getting the WC2 sides and mechanics mostly functional first before I start making modifications to them.

Template

Stats

DPS:
Health:
Armor:
Speed:

Abilities

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Credits

Icon by:
Model by:

 

[aple]

Reserved for changelogs in the future.

 

[Garodar]

Hold on? Eye of the Storm BG? PvP map? Hell yea dude!

I started working on Warsong Gulch ages ago but my map went bugged.đ

Good luck and let me see this as soon as possible.

 

[aple]

Hold on? Eye of the Storm BG? PvP map? Hell yea dude!

I started working on Warsong Gulch ages ago but my map went bugged.đ

Good luck and let me see this as soon as possible.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. =p

I just came up with Eye of the Storm on the spot...That name could be subject to change. For now, that's the best I can come up with.

This isn't just going to be a MAP, this is going to be a full unofficial expansion to WarCraft III. Meaning everything will work on every single melee map.

I do need testers, but my current testing map is really far behind what I've done and most of the changes I made I want to save until I know it's ready for balance testing.

But DO expect a playable, PUBLIC alpha/beta in a week or two.

 

[Garodar]

Oh well, you named it after a WoW battleground.

 

[aple]

It will be a little bit more delayed then I thought, but do expect a playable version soon. And you don't have to use any custom maps or do any weird tricks, Blood Elves will be set up just like every other race. =)

There are also tons of other changes to Undead and Night Elves. When I do make a release, please think critically about the changes and what I aim them to do:

• Rebalance all four standard races.
• Enable much more diverse unit compositions.
• Make Macro more effective and a much bigger determiner of wining or losing.
• Improve upon Blizzard's design.

There will be some changes in the mod that are not listed here. This is on purpose and meant to give a small form of discovery! The next release after the first one will see this page updated with all the changes from the first release. The next release will not have documented changes until the release after that, and etc etc repeat.

 

[TaShadan]

• Make the game just as reliant on Macro as it is on Micro.

How do you try to achive that?

 

[GhostThruster]

wc3 is a micro-oriented game. putting emphasis on macro means not staying true to wc3 gameplay.

 

[Eagle XI]

I can only hope by that he didnt mean returning the game into being a *insert strongest air-unit name of faction here* spamfest.

 

[aple]

Basically, Macro is already kind of important in WarCraft III but not for the traditional RTS way. Macro is important in WarCraft III because you need to stay equal on certain unit-types such as support units or offensive spell casters. (Such as Night Elves going mainly either Claws or Talons)

However, I plan to make almost every unit just as useful as others, so that every unit can be used in the right situation instead of just going one or two really powerful units and hope you micro better then your opponent (Like some Undead compositions). That may be WarCraft's Style, but it's a horrible idea for an RTS. It can end up making WC3 games end basically right as the mid-game starts, or make games last far much longer then they really should have.

wc3 is a micro-oriented game. putting emphasis on macro means not staying true to wc3 gameplay.

Don't worry, micro will still be extraordinarily important. I just want Macro-related things to work in WC3 as well, to make the game much more diverse.

I can only hope by that he didnt mean returning the game into being a *insert strongest air-unit name of faction here* spamfest.

If something like that does happen, I will (Do my best) to fix it.

Do keep in mind that I still want to achieve Blizzard-quality work here and try to stay as true to WarCraft III as possible while still making this feel different and more diverse.

I want this to take EVEN MORE skill then normal WarCraft III does, and that's why I'm trying to bump up macro.

EDIT: Thanks to fuckkz, I know pretty much all that I need to do to set this up properly. So a release should be VERY soon. (Next 1-3 days)

And also, if it comes to it (As in it doesn't work out) then I will just drop the trying to make Macro work.

 

[GhostThruster]

if by macro you mean to allow for more variety in builds (ie. relying on a player's strategic thinking than he just doing the same stale strategy which we currently see in the wc3 metagame) then i completely agree with you. a more skillful game is imo beneficial to longevity and replayability. in fact, i have a mod idea in the idea factory subforum that aims to accomplish this too.

however, just don't bump up macro by focusing more on base management/production (ie. venturing into sc2-gameplay territory rather than staying true to wc3).

 

[aple]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I want waaaay more variety in builds.

With my changes to Undead, I can already think of several compositions that I feel will definitely work, if not immediately then with just a few more changes.

Such as Crypt Fiend, Gargoyle. Ghoul, Necromancer, Meat Wagon. Crypt Fiend, Meat Wagon. Ghoul, Abomination, Crypt Fiend.

With Night Elves, Archers and Huntresses can be quite useful in a main army now. (Instead of a Night Elf army being almost entirely Talons, Claws, and one other support unit.)

I do not plan on making base management/production more necessary other then maybe keeping queues full. (Which won't be much of an issue because a lot of units take a while to build)

The only exception to this will be Undead, because I can't think of any other way to make corpses a little bit more precious other then nerfing the Meat Wagon's Exhume Corpse and giving Ghouls that Decomposition ability and making them a bit cheaper and have more health.

The unit limit has been drastically increased, though. So we can actually see some quite long and stalemate games even until I can figure out what to adjust everything to.

EDIT: I'm thinking of making spells do specific damage as well.

Such as Storm Bolt can do like, 50 Normal damage and 50 Magic damage at level one. 125 Normal Damage and 100 Magic damage at level two. And etc...

 

[GhostThruster]

i've taken a look at your undead techtree changes listed in the op, and so i offer some advice.

i believe blizzard once said that in the process of balancing, you must aim for minimal change from your original idea, unless it is completely broken. there are several reasons to justify this approach, such as retaining familiarity for players as well as allowing for consistency & simplification in design. the following tangential tip is from extra credits; depth > complexity. this makes it more enjoyable for the player, and lessens the learning curve while maintaining the skill gap. for example, the necromancer's revamped ability is just way too complex for no good reason. is there any harm in just keeping raise dead the way it was? the crypt fiend also has too many abilities, especially considering it's not even a caster.

 

[aple]

Some of these changes are just ideas I had and I don't know if they'll be final. They'll be in the release that's coming soon, but they may be removed later.

I wanted to turn the Crypt Fiend into a full-on support unit but then got carried away. I added the Harvest Flesh ability as a way to nerf Web, making it cost 10 mana, the Crypt Fiends mana slowly degenerates over time, but attacking units gives it's mana back. Meaning it won't always be able to use Web as often as it does because it'll be difficult to get them to due damage because I've made them a bit squishier and do less damage overall.

Normally, this would be a problem because Gargoyles aren't that great of anti-air units (I've changed their role to see if they'll be used more). But I plan to add a new unit to Undead that is a dedicated anti-air unit.

As well, the added things to the Necromancer makes them extremely flexible. I think it'll work out in the end.

To sum up most of my changes to the already existing units, they may or may not stay. More then likely the Cryptling ability will be removed later, I just want to see if it works out.

To be honest, I don't feel like the changes to the Necromancer is overwhelmingly different. I think the Necromancer changes do need more thought, but I feel like it'll work in the end.

 

[Eagle XI]

One advice i can give is remaking the Raise Dead ability based on summon Scarab, that way a Necromancer can have set limit Skeletons at once and you can make Skeletons die when he is killed. Base limit 6 with +2 per adept training, you can make it upgraded with adept training to have more skeleton limit and merge it with Skeletal Longevity if you want too and can turn the Skeleton Mage into an after-research.

You basically cancelled the Web ability then, if thats true then its going to be very situational and of limited use.
One thing i had experimented with is giving them a 'Jumpy Spiderlings' passive that is similar in function to Huntress' 'Moon Glaive' multi attack. However this was made in an alternate environment where Nelves are MIA so wasnt overlapping.
An earlier idea i tested was giving them and the summoned Scarabs 'Insectoid Regen' to allow health-regen outside creep, albeit at a minor rate so you still had to rely on Burrow('Insectoid Regen'). Didnt turn out very well this one.

Gargoyles freaking rock as AA, dunno how more you could have possibly boost them.

But then again ofc first need to play n see what you have done before further commenting.

 

[aple]

I don't know man, I've never really seen Gargoyles used much for AA. I've almost never seen them used, actually. So I tried to make them a more well-rounded unit. I don't really like my changes to the Gargoyle, though, so I'll probably revert them back before the release.

Also, I wasn't anywhere near my computer the entire day today so I couldn't get the release ready. And it might be the same situation tomorrow. I think I CAN however guarantee that it'll be released sometime within the next 4-5 days.

As for that Raise Dead idea, I don't really like it. That feels more complex then what I have set up right now. Trust me, when you see what I have set up it's not that hard to follow at all. It's just 3 simple buttons on the Necromancer's command card, 2 will be there at all times. Either Mage and Zombie, Archer and Zombie, or Mage and Archer.

Although all the icons right now are the same so you'll have to learn the hotkeys. (Should do that anyway. xD!)

EDIT: Also, @GhostThruster

i believe blizzard once said that in the process of balancing, you must aim for minimal change from your original idea, unless it is completely broken.

Crypt Fiends are pretty god-damn broken, or at least a lot more cost-effective then most units in the game. And Necromancers are brokenly underpowered.

 

[GhostThruster]

gargs are fine as they are

in my quote, i meant "unless the idea is completely broken". the concept/role of the fiend is not broken, but the unit itself is because they grant the player too much capability without requiring effort. this is also exacerbated by the overpowered-ness of the death knight. seriously, lich/dreadlord/any other hero + fiends is not half as effective as dk.

what i'd do is:
crypt fiend - 450hp/100mana. Spawn Cryptling ability (not autocast and doesnt require a corpse); summons a 100hp spider with 5dps & costs 35mana. Web; 20mana.
death knight - 270 move speed, model is no longer a horse rider. i however believe that u need to counter-balance this by buffing up another undead hero, so i'd give crypt lord 300 move speed.

bottom line; make fiends require more micro, nerf death knight. that is the best way to balance them.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Nerf Blademaster.

That way every race wins!

 

[GhostThruster]

i wud swap the mana costs of windwalk with mirror image and call it a day.

 

[Eagle XI]

Normalize DH starting attributes - attack dice - attack cd, do something about Dryad spam, equalize orbs across all races, nerf Death Pact, fix pulverize, give Crypt Lord 100 base hp like every hero else, blahblah..
*wents to dig up old map with balance changes*

 

[TaShadan]

I have no clue about wc3 balance but i suggest watching pro and top player replays.

 

[aple]

I have watched a decent amount of pro/top plays. It's sort of what inspired me to make this mod actually, cause what I saw was Undead winning like 65-70% of the time, Humans went for either lots of Spell Breakers or Knights, then transitioned into lots of Gryphons. Orcs are probably the more balanced race, if not a bit underpowered if the player messed up one or two times which is waaay too small of a margin for error if you ask me. Night Elves almost never make any other unit other then one of the Druids...This is pretty much every single game I saw.

Death Knight doesn't really need a huge overhaul, it's speed is fine. Unholy Aura and Death Coil are what needs a Nerf and Death Pact needs to be replaced. What does the Death Knight need that for? It's ALREADY bat-shit insanely tanky. Death Pact is just a fucking insult.

Crypt Lord already has a massive buff to it because Summoned units are going to only give about 10 to 25% experience now, haven't decided exactly where I want it yet. I could give it another buff though, I guess.

Which orbs do you think are underpowered? I think Orb of Corruption and Orb of Venom are the strongest and weakest. But some things about WC3 balance I don't QUITE understand yet, which is a reason why I want this out ASAP so I can get feedback.

EDIT: I think I'll revert the Crypt Fiend back to it's original and just modify it's stats some. Hows that sound? I'm not much liking the abilities I've given it.

EDIT2: BTW, Detection is a lot more plentiful in the game now, so because of that Crypt Fiends are slightly nerfed already.

 

[TaShadan]

I have watched a decent amount of pro/top plays. It's sort of what inspired me to make this mod actually, cause what I saw was Undead winning like 65-70% of the time, Humans went for either lots of Spell Breakers or Knights, then transitioned into lots of Gryphons. Orcs are probably the more balanced race, if not a bit underpowered if the player messed up one or two times which is waaay too small of a margin for error if you ask me. Night Elves almost never make any other unit other then one of the Druids...This is pretty much every single game I saw.

Are you sure about the Undead? I heard from a former top player that Undead is the weakest faction. Orc is basically Blademaster... without good use of the Blademaster Orc seems to be underpowered. Human is in most cases fast expansion and go for breakers, knights and gryphons later. I am no wc3 player though and do not have good insights. Its mainly what i heard from the former top player i know.

 

[GhostThruster]

well i'm no former top player, but i'd say the races are overall fairly balanced. some match-ups, like ud vs orc (orc's favour) or ud vs ne (ud's favour) are slightly skewered.

undead is much less stronger in top level 1v1s because the race doesn't reward good micro, while human and orc pretty much remain consistent and ne gets exponentially stronger the better the player's micro is. i say top level 1v1s as well because frost wyrms are rather inaccessible. anything 3v3 and larger, and undead dominate unless a human is going mass tanks/gyros.

if u nerf unholy aura or death coil, the hero becomes useless. u say it doesn't need a 'huge overhaul' but ur posited changes are more drastic than mine.

summoned unit exp is fine. don't fix what isn't broken.

corruption>venom=lightning>fire
lightning can be very powerful but is also highly situational due to its proc, while venom is consistently cost-effective.

i still think fiends need a micro nerf, maybe make web non-autocast or something? this combined with a slower dk wud be perfect.

i don't see why u added more detection... seems like ur trying to fix a non-issue that will inevitably result in its own foreseen and unforeseen issues.

 

[aple]

The reason I'm adding more detection is because one of my Blood Elf heroes has a permanent invisibility ability (That requires mana to sustain) like Ghosts cloak in StarCraft. They also have another permanently invisible unit and I plan to add another burrowing unit to Undead, I plan to give the Crypt Lord a burrow ability (Won't replace any other abilities, it'll just be an ability it has). One of the reasons Archers and Huntresses will be better has to do with that as well.

Anyway, I didn't mean to nerf BOTH Unholy Aura and Death Coil, just one or the other. Probably Unholy Aura. And I honestly probably won't remove Death Pact because as much as I hate it I also love it about as much.

But a lot of this stuff is going to be down the road. First, I want to rebalance all the races then I'll add new units to them then I'll start work on the next race: Naga. (But I really need more, better Naga building graphics then what's on Hive right now...)

Just keep in mind that I am REALLY open to feedback and suggestions, as much as it may seem I don't. A huge purpose in this is to get as many people playing it as possible, and that's a good way to do it!

(I am considering the speed nerf to the DK)

EDIT: I've undone my changes to the Gargoyle.

EDTI2:

Normalize DH starting attributes - attack dice - attack cd, do something about Dryad spam, equalize orbs across all races, nerf Death Pact, fix pulverize, give Crypt Lord 100 base hp like every hero else, blahblah..
*wents to dig up old map with balance changes*

Huh. Did not know Demon Hunter had 57 starting stats...That's a bit overpowered.

What makes Dryads so spammable? I'm guessing it's Abolish Magic and their decent DPS? (And probably Slow Poison)

EDIT3:

summoned unit exp is fine. don't fix what isn't broken.

So your saying that massing Necromancers and Meat Wagons is a totally viable strategy? No, it's not. The Skeletons still give experience, and in fact they give A LOT of experience. If you did that, you could easily level up your enemies hero to 5, 6, 7, 10 before your hero is is even level 5. Not to mention the amount of micro it would take to make that NOT happen. Not impossible, but definitely not easy at all. Personally, I don't think summoned units should give ANY experience, but that'd make them totally OP. xD

I want summoned units something people can actually do. Of course not make it something you can just go entirely of, but I want summoned units to actually do something other then just early game stuff like what Undead or Humans do with Skeletons and Water Elementals...

If you can give me a better reason then "Don't fix what isn't broke" (Which is entirely untrue in this situation) then maybe I'll find another way to make some summoned units more viable...

19 of the 32 heroes in the game have at least A summoned unit (Not counting the Priestest of the Moon, since it's summon is Invulnerable) and only 7 of those 19 are ever actually used. I'm not saying their Summoned units are what makes them flawed, but if those summoned units got a buff they'd sure as hell be more useful.


EDIT4: Last thing to say for the day (Probably)

I am testing a new system out that'll be in the release. It's something I've wanted since the start of this mod. To introduce more dynamic ability damage, that does combinations of other WC3 damages.

The first ability that this is implemented for is Stormbolt. It will now deal (At Level 3) 150 Normal damage and 200 Magic damage.

With this, I can also use the originally reserved Spells damage type as a damage type for units, and I will also be (Hopefully) adding a new Armor type. (If there's any available, I'm pretty sure there is though)

 

[TaShadan]

Giving summoned units a small XP value is worth a try atleast.
I also like more invisible units but you have to be very careful. Unfortunately there are no "visible" effects when a unit is "invisible" (its the case in starcraft broodwar and starcraft II). Which increases the performance of invisible units a lot.
Why do you want to buff archers? Arent they good already? I have seen Moon mass them alot in early game before he switched to dryads and/or talons and bears. I agree that they are useless in late game though. Might be a good idea to give them a T3 upgrade.

 

[Eagle XI]

Its an fast unit with a slowing poison, magic immunity and a dispell, its ranged with an attack range no worser than your starting archer, then realize losses can get replenished in the same time as a Footman, despite being such an uber-cavalry unit.
In contrast to other magic immune units it has the determining advantage of speed, combined with immunity and the slowing poison allowing to simply kite forever aslong microed properly while suffering only the minimal loss. And atop all that a blob of them can double as support for your main army, incase you didnt already main them with an DH and Warden at front.

Skeletons are early game stuff ? what the hell did i just read
You could give lvl2 Water elemental minor evade and at lvl3 add chance to freeze or to send out a wave(based on orb). Or can simply upgrade its evade chance. Why evade ? you ask. Well its a creature made out of water, shouldve been harder to hit.

EDIT: Oh least i forget to say.
Iirc the percentages in the editor doesnt correspond to reality. Fe. to get real 30% crit chance it has to be far lower 24% or was it 'has to be greater'.

 

[GhostThruster]

keep in mind that i'm basing my comments off default melee wc3, so for all i noe with ur new races and whatnot everything works out to be fine. that said, time for some more comments.

more detection will weaken the effectiveness of night elf units and the blademaster. and while u may disagree with the latter effect being adverse, the blademaster is basically the backbone of an orc army in 1v1/2v2 so don't weaken him unless u equally strengthen the orc race is some way as a counter-balance.

the naga buildings on the hive are of great quality, and definitely the best there is.

i've always believed that for balance's sake, paladin shud've been mounted and dk on foot, but that's just me.

dryad spam is because they are highly cost-effective, too cost-effective i'd say (cheap, versatile, high survivability with decent micro). i wud make them cost like ~170g. i'd also consider reducing the cost of druids of the claw by a crapton.

necro-wagon is indeed totally viable. maybe not in 1v1 games, but then i suppose mass frosties isn't viable there either. furthermore, it deserves to be easily counter-able because its such an easy strat to pull off, and it's mighty strong for the amount of input it requires. in fact, i'd wager that u'd be decreasing the skill-gap by making necro-wagon more effective.

summoned units are already effective, and even if they weren't then all that decreasing their exp bounty wud do is make them overpowered in the early game (i can already see firelord and tinker abuse) while in mid-late they still fade into obsolescence. this is because the scarcity of their usage never stemmed from the fact that summons are inherently weak, but rather their lack of numbers and abundance of hard-counters available at t2/3.

don't fix what isn't broken is a perfectly good reason, mainly because attempting do so could lead to actual problems. the reason 7 of 19 heroes' summons are only used is probably because they're the only ones that aren't shit. seriously, u cant tell me the reason serpent wards are never used is because 'they give too much exp'.


archers are surprisingly strong in t3 when fully upgraded, provided u have a wall of tanky melee units between the archers and the enemy. i'd suggest perhaps instead giving hippo riders a t3 upgrade, maybe something like "Bestial Solidarity; archers become more in-sync with their hippo rides, shrinking the dismount cooldown to 1 or 2 seconds and increasing attack speed". this indirectly buffs archers, giving them more utility.

 

[aple]

So how about increasing their build time and making Slow Poison have a research, and increasing Abolish Magic's Mana Cost and make it have a cooldown? (Not all of this at once, just one or two things and then see if that fixes it and if not then do other things)

Druids of the Claw are far too versatile and strong to consider buffing. They need more of a nerf then a buff. Did you forget they have Bear Form, where they can still use Roar, gain like 300 HP, and double their attack?

I'm really not entirely sure how well Blood Elves are balanced. With my friends testing, I've had to change a few things such as towers were really easily massable (Weird, because they are basically just exact copies of the Human towers but those aren't that bad) and some compositions were really strong and I'm not really sure if those have been nerfed yet or not.

I'm not really making Necro-Wagon MORE effective. In fact, I've hugely nerfed the Meat Wagon, and I hope my changes to the Ghoul will result in some really interesting micro in Necro-Wagon. Where you have like, 2-3 (You won't need more then that because they build faster now) Crypt's pumping out Ghouls -> They get low on health -> Use Decompose on the Low-Health ones -> Use Necros to summon more Skeletons from their bodies. xD

This denies the enemies hero from gaining experience on the unit, which makes them VERY viable to produce a lot of, which will be necessary because there won't be as many corpses from Meat Wagons anymore.

I know that Archers CAN be very strong with the right unit composition, but my buff to them and Huntresses is more to create NEW unit compositions involving them. My buff is actually just really simple and not making them actually stronger, just more viable. It's making them a bit cheaper by removing Improved Bows and making Archers come standard with the upgrade, and removing the Sentinel upgrade and making Huntresses have unlimited Sentinels but it has a long cooldown, and finally they can get an upgrade that lets them be Shadow Melded during the day and while moving. Huntresses also gain an Attack Upgrade like the Archer has with Marksmanship Training. The Shadow Meld upgrade is T2 I think, might change it to T3, and the Huntresses damage upgrade is T3.

Hippogryph Riders do need a buff, but I'm not quite sure what to do with them...They actually already have very fast attack speed and an insane amount of health for a low-cost unit. But because Night Elves don't have great Air Control, other races can very easily go a few of their anti-air air units (Gargs, DragonHawk Riders, Troll Batriders) and now those Hippo Riders are useless!

This promotes more use of detection, but at the same time right now the only actual source of detection I've added is giving each race modified Sight Wards at their shop, they come in three and don't last very long at all.

I feel like these changes will make them EXTREMELY more viable late-game without really changing them much early game other then improving the Archers range, which I might remove if it becomes a problem which is might...

I see Serpent Wards used occasionally. Shadow Hunters are usually the third hero people get, and they go for Healing Wave->Serpent Ward->Healing Wave Etc... Serpent Wards have low health but have a very long range, so they're totally worth dropping in the back of your army in an engagement to get off a little extra DPS. The heroes that suck that do summons is almost entirely because they are garbage, but at the same time if their summoned units were buffed slightly they'd be less garbage.

Such as the Far Seer. They're very rarely used. Chain Lightning can be great, but Feral Spirits are kinda underpowered all around. Then it has Far Sight...Not very useful. And a Channeled AoE spelled, not very useful either. If Feral Spirits were buffed this way, it can be viable to grab the Far Seer just for that extra HP and damage in your army.

I don't really know how the Blood Mage is used competitively, but I feel like it's garbage. It's only good spell is Mana Siphon. Banish is VERY situational. Flame Strike is a very pathetic area-control spell until level 3. And Phoenix is just bad all around.

Keepers are pretty decent, with Entangling Roots and Thorns Aura. Tranquility is okay at best, it heals enough to basically absorb half a hit to a hit, depending on the attacker. But Force of Nature is highly underpowered because Treants have fairly low health and movement speed, and kinda bad DPS too. This spell being used up on the Keeper, and it being kinda useless, really decreases the viability of the Keeper.

Yeah, this buff won't FIX these problems, but it definitely makes all summoned units MUCH more scary, actually being a viable part of the army.

As for the Blademaster, I know he's kinda the backbone of an Orc Army in almost 99/100 scenarios. But, I want to change that. I do NOT want to make the Blademaster useless or even less useful, but I DO want to make other things viable for Orcs other then just the Blademaster. Orcs are probably the most balanced race in Vanilla WC3, minus a few things here and there, though. So that'll be very hard to mess with them as they already do very well.

 

[Metalbear]

One thing in this amazing project made me mad, you named the DMG as DPS! Damage per second is ANOTHER story! I suggest you rename em sooner. If you instead wanted a TRUE DPS, then you should correct it as following:
(((max damage - min damage) / 2) + min damage) and the number divided by the attack speed! You will get the true DPS amount ya needed.

You plannin on changin humans as well? I mean, you currently make blood elf faction.

 

[aple]

...Uhm, that formula for calculating DPS is highly unnecessary.

What I'm doing is:

Min Damage / Attack Speed = Min DPS. Max Damage / Attack Speed = Max DPS.

Then I do "Min DPS - Max DPS" showing what the smallest amount of DPS they can do and the highest.

DPS is HIGHLY more accurate on what the unit actually can do, especially in WarCraft III.

And...Humans will be one of the more difficult races to make changes to. I think I'll leave them the Blood Elf units but the same Blood Elf units for the BE race will be very different. (The Spell Breaker already is)

As for actually rebalancing Humans, there isn't much they need changes to. Just their heroes and maybe a tweak on a unit or two.

EDIT:

Okay so, Development Update: fucckz has made this new thing to help the structure of my mod, but I'm having troubles compiling it. So, unfortunately this'll add some time to the release until I can figure it out. It sucks because it's what's determining half of the features I planned for the first release. I don't think it'll add a whole lot more time, maybe another day or two.

 

[Metalbear]

Well, doesn make sense to me that bloody elves gonna help humziez to kill other bloody elviez ... least lore-wise ... whatever! Maybe Im dull to understand it.

 

[aple]

Yeah, Lore-Wise that doesn't make sense I know but for now I'm going to leave it like that because removing 3 units that people are use to using as Humans and replacing them with different-looking/brand new units can cause some troubles gameplay-wise.

Gameplay is my primary goal here. Maybe I'll just change the models of the units later, but for now I'm going to leave them alone.

 

[TaShadan]

You could replace the blood elves in the human army with normal elves. I did that in my mod. The dragonhawk rider and the priest already have an alternative elven skin.

 

[aple]

Eh, that would work I guess. There's a Non-Blood Elf Spell Breaker on here somewhere, I think.

EDIT: Meh, there's not. But it'd be super-EZ to make a non-Blood Elf skin for it, so that can be later down the road.

 

[Kyrbi0]

You could replace the blood elves in the human army with normal elves. I did that in my mod. The dragonhawk rider and the priest already have an alternative elven skin.

(and the Sorceress)
Hey, that's not a bad idea. A little lore-bending, but at least the models are all there...

BTW, I am really getting into this thread... I will have a big ol' response later on (more like "list of questions"); just haven't found the time. Quite interesting, though.

No DD on Units, though.

 

[aple]

It wouldn't necessarily be Lore-Bending, or at least nowhere near as lore-bending as what my original story was going to be. There were going to be some High Elves that didn't really agree with the fanatical nature of the Blood Elves and you were going to fight them. That may or may not still end up becoming part of my story, not really sure.

Also, DD? What's that mean?

 

[Kyrbi0]

"Direct-Damage". No regular/in-game/ladder/etc Unit has a single "Direct Damage" ability for the obvious issue of being able to mass them (as opposed to Heroes) for crazy-boat-loads of damage, regardless of attempts at balance. It's also one of the single-most common mistakes found in Faction Makers, I find.

 

[aple]

The ones I have will be fairly easy to balance. They're not as good as you think. Knife Bomb is kind of good, but they would have to be massed. Since they themselves are a very weak unit, low health, and their heal ability is rather mana-expensive, it's not much of a problem.

As for Buff Burn, it doesn't do much damage at all since the damage relies on buffs, and for the most part if a unit has a buff it's only 1 to 3 at a time. The DoT will likely be adjusted though.

Also, there's tons of them in the game. Although I'm not too sure on how well they're balanced.

Pulverize. Berserk. Lightning Shield. Unstable Concoction. I suppose Envenomed Spears and Slow Poison could count. Spells that do damage Vs Summoned units such as Dispel, Purge, and Abolish Magic.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Also, there's tons of them in the game. Although I'm not too sure on how well they're balanced.

Pulverize. Berserk. Lightning Shield. Unstable Concoction. I suppose Envenomed Spears and Slow Poison could count. Spells that do damage Vs Summoned units such as Dispel, Purge, and Abolish Magic.

Not exactly... When I talk about "Direct Damage" abilities, I'm talking about Storm Bolt, Thunder Clap, Forked/Chain Lightning, Breath of Fire, Holy Light (vs. Undead), Mana Burn (vs. Mana'd targets), etc; Abilities that the user Clicks, (then user Clicks a Target), then the ability Deals Damage (sometimes with side-effects, either unit/point/AoE-target, sometimes with certain restrictions)

Pulverize - Not DD. Like Bash; Chance-on-Attack, and only vs. Ground
Berserk - Not DD. This only increases the percentage of damage the normal attacks do...
Lightning Shield - Not DD. Deals Damage Over Time (DoT), of which there are several on Units (DD != DoT), in an area, only to Ground units (including Allies, a detriment which helps set it off), and only around the shielded unit.
Unstable Concoction - Technically deals DD, but it is able to be so due to the obvious 'un-massability'; no matter how many Batriders you make, each can only explode once then is gone. Can better be considered a Suicide spell with Damage effects.
Envenomed Spears/Slow Poison/etc - Not DD. Passive attack-enhancing DoTs.
Dispel/Purge/Abolish Magic/Disenchant/etc - Not DD, directly. Deals a raw chunk of damage, but only to a very specific kind of unit (Summoned), otherwise totally Damage-less. Essentially a "counter" mechanic to balance over-use of Summons (given that they are food/gold/wood-cost free, and instantaneous "build times" (speaking of which, you'll notice there are very few Units that Summon things (arguably the Witch Doctor's 3 'wards' are (though Blizzard doesn't seem to count those as 'Summons'), and the Necromancer's skeletons (which is kinda his thing, and they are sufficiently weak & easy to kill to compensate). That's literally it.)

There are more:
Aerial Shackles - Not DD. Does deal DoT, to a specific unit... But only Aerial units, it's low, and furthermore it's Channeling (the caster is stuck & useless)
Barrage - Not DD. Passive attack-enhancing (multi-shot) ability.
Mana Flare - Technically DD-esque, but I would not consider it so, due to A) It only affected targets with Mana who are currently Casting (not even Mana Burn is that restricted), and B) it's Channeling, rendering the Faerie Dragon (despite the buffed Armor) useless for anything else. Moreover, since it affects multiple units in an AoE repeatedly, there's little point to massing them (and it would be easily countered, as the Faerie Dragon is relatively weak anyway (does Phase Shift work while channeling Mana Flare, I wonder?)).

Anyway, the point is, there are quite literally no true DD abilities among the Units. The only ones that come close are heavily considered and restricted so as to be very specific & consistent. Just a pattern I've noticed.

(Interestingly, the only 3 so far I would consider even slightly or partially DD-esque (Unstable Concoction, Aerial Shackles, Mana Flare) are all abilities introduced in the TFT expansion (weren't present in regular RoC). Now, many things in TFT were done to enhance/fix issues in RoC (Magic damage for casters, specifically anti-caster units, anti-turtling units, anti-BM harass stuff, etc), so maybe it's that. However, TFT also introduced Neutral/Tavern Heroes, among which are found the only Hero Ultimates that affect One Single (other) Target Unit (all of which 'kill' the unit, though). Food for thought.

~

"Buff Burn" seems sufficiently specific (like Mana Flare; it's a restricted Mana Burn-type spell), though can one even tell how many Buffs an enemy unit has on them (i.e. to maximize the damage of this spell)? Just seems very micro-intensive to me... But not outright problematic.

"Knife Bomb" is problematic (the channeling time helps, but I still feel it's too DD-y), and I'm not sure there's a way to make it "weak enough for a unit, but still strong enough to be useful" (the main issue when balancing such things). Really, though, I'm more concerned at how 'weird' it is for the unit; it totally goes awry of the Theme. It's a "Blood Caster" (is that "Blood" as in "Blood Elves" or "Blood" as in "actual blood/HP"??); what's it doing with bombs or knives? : )

 

[aple]

Buff Burn is an Autocast spell. It'll automatically pick high priority targets, like Spell Steal picks the "Best" buffs from units. It sorts units with the most buffs to be the next target. If it is necessary to balance it, I guess I could remove that and use the sorting system for other things, likely Campaign-related, because we did spend quite a lot of time working on that system.

I will work on Knife Bomb though. Maybe decrease it's damage, or just make it deal damage to allies.

As for Buff Burn, maybe I'll decrease the damage it does too if the automatic sorting isn't too much of a problem but it still needs a nerf.

 

[aple]

Okay, it's going to take a bit more time then I thought to properly set this up. Sorry about that. Still learning how to set this up. Give it another week at the least.

In the mean time, I hope I can get lots of questions and critiques from people so I can have this first release as good as possible. =)

 

[Eagle XI]

Y'know already, to say something actually useful we kinda require to see things in action. What may seem good on paper may not correspond to reality and vice versa.

 

[aple]

I understand. I'm considering just releasing the test map that I have my friends test for me so that way everyone can get an idea of what to see of the race itself.

I might have to do that, because I really wanted to start getting feedback by now. xD

 

[aple]

So I think I know what I'm doing now. I think I can have it ready soon. Or whenever I start actually working on it, because I've been largely putting it off.

 

[aple]

Work on the Demon race as started. They won't be in the first release but they'll come around soon.

I think I'll post some screenshots showing some things off, and maybe screenshots of the demons too.

I'll start showing off more things, and maybe I'll talk about the ideas I have for some of the Campaigns. (Which I currently have very little for actually, but there's still some.)

 

[MogulKahn]

Just commenting so I can follow this !

 

[aple]

So, I've recently had some problems with my computer that caused me to lose my Dev map.

I can still get everything from it, but I'm gonna have to remake my map after the release.

I've also been taking a huge break from it and I think it's going to keep going for another week or so.

 

[Eagle XI]

Where did that sound familiar,hmm...

 

[Kyrbi0]

Backups, backups, backups... Sorry to hear that.