The Model Section

[eubz]

Hello fellow model creators,

I am concerned about the model sections pending models. As I observed, it now has 8 pages pending. Are all our model moderators busy at the same time?

 

[Kazeon]

Hmm.. Model section is so active. The submissions outnumbered active moderators. I suppose reviewing model doesn't take much times, current moderators could probably handle it. But still, maybe they need more moderators.

 

[eubz]

Two moderators are enough in the models section. We have them but I guess they are just busy these days, I guess.

 

[Ralle]

Oh crap, this again.

 

[WhiteFang]

The models section is very active these days.Remember that the moderators are busy with other stuff aswell.They can't review models the whole time

 

[Daffa]

Well, I do hope Map Section got this stream of activity too tbh.

 

[eubz]

The map section is well handled by new breed of heroes that's what makes the difference.

 

[Chaosy]

The models section is very active these days.Remember that the moderators are busy with other stuff aswell.They can't review models the whole time

Sorry, but that is no excuse. Firstly, if they don't got time, they should not be moderators in the first place. Secondly there are models in the pending section from 2014 that hasn't even been reviewed yet. There is no excuse for that.

Spoiler

Sure you can't demand them to be active the whole year, but most of it

 

[General Frank]

Pay them then.
They are doing it for free and in their free time and have to endure that pushing and egoistic thinking for people then there is really no substance for people them "not doing" their "job".

 

[WhiteFang]

Secondly there are models in the pending section from 2014 that hasn't even been reviewed yet.

Ok,that is pretty extreme.

 

[Ralle]

We are working it out. Misha's computer is broken, Kwaliti is super busy and I have managed to totally confuse MiniMage. We are doing what we can to work this out. If anybody lives near Misha and has a computer they don't need, you could help by giving it to him.

 

[Kazeon]

I'm the one who was always flooding the staff contact forum

Spoiler

(and blaming them)

for letting my resources pending for a long time. Now they have approved most my stuffs and I think "what am I going to do about them now?". Nothing. So, I started to think, what's wrong with pending resources?

 

[-Grendel]

Oh crap, this again.

i smirked when i saw this

 

[fladdermasken]

Oh crap, this again.

I think, at some point, some dude proposed a sticky for this stuff.

Flood control, baby!

:V

 

[General Frank]

People should be more graceful AND thankful for the work moderator put in and should be less being dicks about their own agenda.
This is a community and AND NOT A FUCKING DICK SWINGING CONTEST, goddamnit.

Also, people who are not even submitting anything to that specific section should simply be quiet instead of barfing their fucked up opinion. None wants to hear it anyway. So yeah, fuck you.

 

[bowser499]

As people say, if you want something to be done, do it by yourself.
Help mods by posting your own review on pending stuff, seriously.

 

[General Frank]

As people say, if you want something to be done, do it by yourself.
Help mods by posting your own review on pending stuff, seriously.

But most people have no fucking idea what they are talking about. Blarting out an opinion might seem helpful, but it is not. Other, more experienced people, just give opinions because they see a way to enforce they views on others. Fuck that too.

 

[bowser499]

But most people have no fucking idea what they are talking about. Blarting out an opinion might seem helpful, but it is not. Other, more experienced people, just give opinions because they see a way to enforce they views on others. Fuck that too.

If the model violates obvious rules, for example, lots of unnecessary vertices or stupidly imported overwritten textures, that's rules which enforce people to fix up the model.
Model reviewing, like everything in THW must have its criterias to review. So criterias must be followed. If people have no idea about what they talk, it's needed just to point that out for them so they won't repeat the mistakes they did. That's how learning works.

 

[General Frank]

Oh what a glorious world that would be if everyone would participate in that, but most are not.

 

[IcemanBo]

I can't really talk for other sections, but in spell section I enjoy it, if others also give feedback/reviews.

Some are helpful, it's nice then.
Some only post to seem clever, that's not very nice.

But the mod can filter these stuff, and it may boost his/her own review as well.
So I would never discourage people from trying to give feedback and write their own reviw.

And only theme related people would anyway give feedback. (?)
I would never even dare to go to model section and start a pointless review there. (because of lack of any knowledge)

 

[bowser499]

Oh what a glorious world that would be if everyone would participate in that, but most are not.

Indeed.
upd: I will try it.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Sorry, but that is no excuse. Firstly, if they don't got time, they should not be moderators in the first place. Secondly there are models in the pending section from 2014 that hasn't even been reviewed yet. There is no excuse for that.

Well you have point here, if we speak generally. If someone does that for free does not mean that he can do whatever he wants and be inactive all time ih his sections. Simply because many other people would do his job also for free but far much better and with greater activity.
it is true that moderators work for free, but they knew exactly what is expected from them to do and what is their job, if they did not want this, they should not accept positions. I am talking this in case that someone intentionally does not do his job, not if he has valid reasons.
I was talking about that years ago, and to prove my point ,,Zero tolerance" is perfect example back then when half of staff were demoted/banned due to not just that they did not do their jobs, but caused serious problems and damage to site.

Now, about this very case:
I am with General Frank and Ralle mostly here

We are working it out. Misha's computer is broken, Kwaliti is super busy and I have managed to totally confuse MiniMage. We are doing what we can to work this out. If anybody lives near Misha and has a computer they don't need, you could help by giving it to him.

Exactly, those guys are doing good job here and not causing troubles at all.
Misha is doing fine when he can. For example all my chaos buildings models, before they were uploaded completely as ,,bug free", I sent them to Misha first to review and tell me what to fix, and he always replies, he was always helpful.
regarding MiniMage, this guy is awesome for now. he approved all of my models in short time. I haven't seen him to reject too much and to be harsh to people, so people should be grateful.

People should be more graceful AND thankful for the work moderator put in and should be less being dicks about their own agenda.

Yes, it is in people's nature to always complain about something.

But most people have no fucking idea what they are talking about.

I agree with that too. Especially those kids today. Just complain and wine about something, without thinking first.

The map section is well handled by new breed of heroes that's what makes the difference.

Map section is handled very well as far I know.
Orcnet, StopCampign00b and their teams are doing reviews fine in professional way. Sure that it is a bit slower and takes time, but you get professional work done in turn. More professional that we did in past (although we had to deal with over 50 pending pages of maps so we need to deal quickly), so for now I am fine with those guys.

I can't really talk for other sections, but in spell section I enjoy it, if others also give feedback/reviews.

I do not know much about spell section, but you seem to do awesome job too.

 

[Daffa]

I can't say much though, but...

Pretty much Model Section has some sort of similarities to Other Sections, thus if I may suggest, like what Map Section has, a team of reviewers to handle the pending models. This way moderators can quickly set resources status based on reviews from several reviewers (this must be a little selective, they need to be good at the expertise).

 

[GhostWolf]

The issue is when the moderators themselves know nothing about good topology, unwrapping, and animation curves (which are pretty much the only things needed for 2002 era models).
And you expect a group of "reviewers" to know any better?

 

[MasterHaosis]

That depends of who is moderator and who reviewer.
being moderator does not automatically mean that he knows everything. There are plenty of users around which knows equally or even better as moderators, but for some reasons they wont be in staff, or aren't called there yet.

 

[Daffa]

I have to agree with MasterHaosis.

 

[General Frank]

The difference with maps and custom resources is that the map section requires a much more broad understanding of the matter whereas the resource section need a more focused insight on said resources.

 

[Kazeon]

That depends of who is moderator and who reviewer.
being moderator does not automatically mean that he knows everything. There are plenty of users around which knows equally or even better as moderators, but for some reasons they wont be in staff, or aren't called there yet.

They don't need new staff all the time. Demoting a staff and appointing new one just because the new one's better is insolent as well.

And who said that you need to know everything to be a moderator? At least they need to have major expertise on the specified field, and they need to get along with normal users as well. There's just no way Ralle will appoint dick user which is hated everywhere to be moderator, it's like bringing this site down slowly. Expertise isn't everything to be a moderator.

imo

 

[GhostWolf]

There's just no way Ralle will appoint dick user which is hated everywhere to be moderator, it's like bringing this site down slowly.

 

[MasterHaosis]

The difference with maps and custom resources is that the map section requires a much more broad understanding of the matter whereas the resource section need a more focused insight on said resources.

Yeah exactly. Map section was always specific about that.

They don't need new staff all the time. Demoting a staff and appointing new one just because the new one's better is insolent as well.

Where did I said that they need new staff and they should demote staff?

And who said that you need to know everything to be a moderator?

I was replying to GhostWolf who said that map moderators do not know some basic things, yet again to be expected that from reviewers. But nobody said that they need to know everything.

At least they need to have major expertise on the specified field, and they need to get along with normal users as well. There's just no way Ralle will appoint dick user which is hated everywhere to be moderator, it's like bringing this site down slowly. Expertise isn't everything to be a moderator.
imo

You completely misread what i said. I just made statement that there are users whose created better models than certain moderators and know much more than moderators. GhostWolf said ,,And you expect a group of "reviewers" to know any better?", so I was replying that itdepends of who is reviewer. if reviewer is just regular person, logically that GhostWolf's statement is correct, he wont know how to review model properly, but if review is someone experienced whose created tons of quality assets, he will know even better than moderator (which GhostWolf had in mind).
I was just decent as user, and while I was map moderator, we had tons of users which were far better than me. So they could be awesome reviewers if we had that system back then. But you are right that being awesome at job does not automatically mean that you should be moderator, you also need to be good with people, but that is different topic.
Nobody said about promoting moderators, we talked possibility about reviews, nobody said about ,,dick hated users" to be promoted. We had such in past, but also, different topic.
Read carefully next time before replying.

 

[GhostWolf]

I was replying to GhostWolf who said that map moderators do not know some basic things, yet again to be expected that from reviewers. But nobody said that they need to know everything.

...

Except no one knows anything.
Do you know who does? the people that no longer mod Warcraft 3, and are not going to be in either of those groups.
That is because, for some reason, it's assumed to be fine if you know nothing about modeling, and you can stick a couple of pre-made parts together and call it a day.
I've never seen a single post (except for a couple of mine) talking about the exact subjects I mentioned before - topology, proper unwraps, and animation curves (has anyone here even heard of using a checkers pattern...?)

And no, unlike maps, which are not the subject of this thread, you actually do need to know all of those things to make proper models.

But hey, with a bit of standards, there wont be models on this site, because like I said, this whole community just got used to bad resources being considered good.

 

[Kazeon]

@GhostWolf:
I'm not sure what kind of expression is that

@MasterHaosis:

And who said that you need to know everything to be a moderator?

Perhaps just ignore that line. I misread your post.

I was just stating my opinion why this happen:

There are plenty of users around which knows equally or even better as moderators, but for some reasons they wont be in staff, or aren't called there yet.

I'm pretty sure I have read your post carefully but wasn't aware of GhostWolf's post.

Where did I said that they need new staff and they should demote staff?

What I meant with "They don't need new staff all the time." was maybe the space (for new staff) is full (unavailable) => maybe they need to demote one before promoting the new one, which is insolent. Again, this is related to why those people aren't in the staff rank yet: the space is full, it's impossible to demote previous staff with new one etc ... .

. GhostWolf said ,,And you expect a group of "reviewers" to know any better?", so I was replying that itdepends of who is reviewer. if reviewer is just regular person, logically that GhostWolf's statement is correct, he wont know how to review model properly, but if review is someone experienced whose created tons of quality assets, he will know even better than moderator (which GhostWolf had in mind).
I was just decent as user, and while I was map moderator, we had tons of users which were far better than me. So they could be awesome reviewers if we had that system back then. But you are right that being awesome at job does not automatically mean that you should be moderator, you also need to be good with people, but that is different topic.

Agreed. But again, I wasn't concerned about that part.

Nobody said about promoting moderators, we talked possibility about reviews, nobody said about ,,dick hated users" to be promoted. We had such in past, but also, different topic.

Yeah nobody, not me as well. I was just examplifying why expertise isn't everything to be a moderator.

I wasn't stating my opinion clearly, I'm sorry.

 

[Ralle]

Let it all out... There we go.

Let's see... Pending models... Rage... Low quality models... Topology and unwrapping... Evil moderators... Oh yeah, MasterHaosis.

People use the models on this site for their maps and get decent results. The models may not be Blizzard or Electronic Arts quality but they are decent for maps for this 10 year old game. Heck sometimes even indie game authors ask me if they can use your models. I tell them they must give credit and if they want to sell the games they make, they have to ask you directly. The models aren't perfect but they are still worth a lot to many of us.

We are working on getting the number of pending resources down, but as many of you say, moderators do this for their own pleasure. It's what they do when they come tired home from school or work (or sometimes at work). I understand that 4 months may seem like a long time and it is. But it's not like a model submitted today will wait 4 months to get approved. Some models are stuck in pending because we need to decide what to do with them. Many of them are low quality or simple edits but may still be useful. The high quality models are usually approved much quicker. I know this may be "unacceptable" to some of you, but that's the way it is and I am working to fix it.

 

[WhiteFang]

Let's see... Pending models... Rage... Low quality models... Topology and unwrapping... Evil moderators... Oh yeah, MasterHaosis.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[MiniMage]

I am concerned about the model sections pending models.

Don't be. Stop uploading attachments en-masse. That's the issue.

Hmm.. Model section is so active. But still, maybe they need more moderators.

False.

Sorry, but that is no excuse.

Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit. I wake up at 05:00 and get home at 19:30 and people still feel they are entitled to bitch and moan. I'm not sure why you are attempting to make demands when you don't even make models. People are uploading attachments en masse. The entire pending list is the result of less than ten people mass uploading attachments because they assume that it's a cheap workaround, as a completely unmoving model couldn't possibly have any clipping errors, awkward movement or anything else that might send the model to needs fix. But they forget that by mass producing generic swords, they are being unoriginal as fuck.

Indeed.
upd: I will try it.

I don't mind help, but the final say is the moderating moderator. I don't mind if you apply effort to the judgement. It will help enrich my judgement when I finally get to it. Or not, depends on if I find your judgement accurate or not. But who cares, in the end, you're still having fun, do you not?

regarding MiniMage, this guy is awesome for now. he approved all of my models in short time. I haven't seen him to reject too much and to be harsh to people, so people should be grateful.

Thank you, but to be fair, I'd love to be the strict,objective and harsh old me, but Ralle does not allow it. I've been told to be nice, fuzzy and overly sensitive, but I'm not Misha nor Ralle. My thought process doesn't work that way.

..like what Map Section has, a team of reviewers to handle the pending models.

Denied.

...being moderator does not automatically mean that he knows everything. There are plenty of users around which knows equally or even better as moderators, but for some reasons they wont be in staff, or aren't called there yet.

Just because you know how to build does not essentially mean you know how to judge and to critique properly nor objectively. Just look at GhostWolf, he has the capabilities and knowledge of model creation, but qualifications for teaching akin to that of a dusty old brick. He couldn't drop a decent critique if it would save his life.

Except no one knows anything. Do you know who does? the people that no longer mod Warcraft 3.

My biggest question when you begin your rants is why you don't just run off to them and give them a hug. They are not dead, they are very much alive, Full on game developing last time I heard. We've never been taught how to. We were never taught the process. We've learned by experimenting. Do a little this and a little of that, and hey, after a few years we know enough to get the job done with decent level of quality.

The high quality models are usually approved much quicker. I know this may be "unacceptable" to some of you, but that's the way it is and I am working to fix it.

Let me give you an analogy. The higher quality models are gold. The crappier models are coal. If we wait a couple million years, the coal will be diamond. Thus by comparison, four months is not a long waiting time. Apply more effort and be rewarded in turn, that is all there is to it.

 

[Chaosy]

Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit. I wake up at 05:00 and get home at 19:30 and people still feel they are entitled to bitch and moan. I'm not sure why you are attempting to make demands when you don't even make models.

I am speaking about moderation in general not the model section specifically. If a moderator don't have time to moderate he/she should not be a moderator does that really need to be said?

If don't think I am being very demanding when I say 4 months is too much wait time no mater which section. If you think the models are so lame leave them unrated but approved. Or instantly reject them, I don't give a fuck. It's still better than nothing. If you wouldn't take it so personal that would be great, I am speaking (or maybe writing) while keeping in mind that there are 5 model mods that are 4 months behind schedule.

 

[MiniMage]

Or instantly reject them, I don't give a fuck. It's still better than nothing.

Tried that, People got worried, Ralle got scared and here we are.

If you wouldn't take it so personal that would be great, I am speaking (or maybe writing) while keeping in mind that there are 5 model mods that are 4 months behind schedule.

There can never be a "behind schedule". There is no schedule.
Be grateful and stop being such a little spoiled brat.

I don't think I am being very demanding.

I was putting it nicely. Now kindly fuck off.

 

[Ralle]

I can see where you are coming from MiniMage, but it's time to tone down the anger. I appreciate that you are firm and take no bullshit but your recent few posts are too offensive.

 

[MiniMage]

Right right.. Aw yiss, niceness. Being insulted. Nice nice. I'm off to do some more niceness.
I'll tie my hands behind my back again and return to the shadows.

 

[Ralle]

You are supposed to be above insults and give back with a firm professional tone, not this crap you've posted so far. Also, now you are disrespecting me, that's nice. I appreciate it.

 

[General Frank]

You are supposed to be above insults and give back with a firm professional tone, not this crap you've posted so far. Also, now you are disrespecting me, that's nice. I appreciate it.

Honestly boss, I see no insult really. Infact you were pretty scared of instant rejection of models because you want to cater to everyone. But this is not the right thing to do. If you want to have quality, which has diminished greatly over the past months, then you have to separate the crap from the good stuff.
If you want crap then there is no need for moderation. If you want top-notch quality support every moderator and just don't get pissed and scared at users that literally have no idea what they are talking about.

Either this is a big misunderstanding or maybe the whole shit got so heated because people think they are the cream of the crop, when in reality, they should not be listened to because they know jack...
Just saying.

I am hoping I am not stepping on anyone's toes here.

 

[Ralle]

You are obviously right General Frank. But I need to find the line between what a modder might find useful and what is crap. A modder may want to use a footman without a sword because it can be useful in many situations. Do you consider a quality model? Definitely not, but it's still useful for many things.

 

[General Frank]

You are obviously right General Frank. But I need to find the line between what a modder might find useful and what is crap. A modder may want to use a footman without a sword because it can be useful in many situations. Do you consider a quality model? Definitely not, but it's still useful for many things.

Sure is.
But why clog the section with cheap crap. Most modellers also upload to the forum for people to download.

 

[WhiteFang]

I think this thread is getting out of hand..

 

[General Frank]

I think this thread is getting out of hand..

Well, you have not contributed anything constructive to this conversation except things like that. You are like the canned laughs of a sitcom, although not funny and totally out of context.

 

[WhiteFang]

Well, you have not contributed anything constructive to this conversation except things like that. You are like the canned laughs of a sitcom, although not funny and totally out of context.

True enough,but thats because i'm not in the mood to argue and get insulted

 

[General Frank]

True enough,but thats because i'm not in the mood to argue and get insulted

Then begone.

 

[Ralle]

Sure is.
But why clog the section with cheap crap. Most modellers also upload to the forum for people to download.

Yeah.. I never liked that. I want people to use the model section because of the model viewer, the auto import tutorial and all the metadata. Models belong in the model section. I know it doesn't work completely like that, but I want it to. That's why for Hive 2 a resource section is like a forum, there can be multiple. We can have one for what some may consider crap and other consider highly useful model edits for different purposes.

 

[General Frank]

Yeah.. I never liked that. I want people to use the model section because of the model viewer, the auto import tutorial and all the metadata. Models belong in the model section. I know it doesn't work completely like that, but I want it to. That's why for Hive 2 a resource section is like a forum, there can be multiple. We can have one for what some may consider crap and other consider highly useful model edits for different purposes.

Which is totally fine

 

[Celaquil]

I think we all need a threadly reminder that we are not your employees.

We are moderators because we want to help the community, and not because
we are paid to follow specific schedules and expectations from the community.
We are, if anything, doing the community a service, we arrange, review,
help and uphold the peace. I am not saying that we are without faults, and I
am not saying that you are not entitled to express your opinions. What I'm
saying is that we work on a daily basis to make your stay on this site as good
as we can make it, and we rarely get appreciation for what we do.

Voice your concerns, because we want those, but don't make demands.

The only thing I ask is that people keep a civil tone when discussing these
matters, and that you consider the fact that we are doing this completely
free of charge and that we are sacrificing time we could have otherwise
spent doing more "fun" things, because we think it's worth it. I only ask
that you keep this in mind when you come to complain that the resource
approval progression is not going as quickly as you wanted.

I will not close this thread, even though I am tempted, but I will keep a
close watch, and tolerate no more rage fits or uncivilized behaviour.