The Model Section

[MasterHaosis]

@MasterHaosis:

Perhaps just ignore that line. I misread your post.
...
I wasn't stating my opinion clearly, I'm sorry.

No problem man. You misread it.
I also made tons of mistakes in past, we all did, accidentally.
You at least are aware of that now.

You see now guys, just two people are enough to misread each one's post and long unnecessary unneeded conversations can occur (even arguing and worse). I do not talk about Quilnez, I talk about generally, which is common these days when few (relatively) new people without some experience are talking and even like in those cases, discussion and requesting some stuff.
For example, we are not talking about tastes ,,I think this model look good", we are talking about serious stuff.
People need to know much about subject which they are talking about. There is reason between ,,I think this should work like that" and ,,I think this should work like that becaus I have seen this for years, and if we did that in past, we got those results.... if we do this, that will happen etc etc...", some people whose recently joined starts to creating thread talking about serious stuff which they do not understand and they are not aware what they caused.
Thats why Ralle ended today with sentence ,,you do not know what you are talking about" (something like that, I really did not follow entire stuff) when random people wanted to organize, judge contests, causing only damage because everyone argued themselves regarding this (with following drama). They do not understand how complex system is and what is all required for such contests etc etc...
Same situation we got here in this very thread. People whose resources are not approved or reviewed yet, join to complain on moderators, just like that. If they were here for years for example, or were staff members themselves, they would know how system works here, how complex can be some stuff, therefore they would not complain on moderators (being lazy) that easily. They would think twice before posting such things.
here for example, Ralle, General Frank, Mini Mage, GhostWolf, Keiji, me and some others are here long enough to know how system functions, what are those good points and drawbacks, we know what combinations/redesigns/changes we did in past, what and how worked, so overally we know what on to base our opinions. We have seen it for years. But certain people just do not understand that they are no match to join yet again to start such conversations which requires some knowledge and experience. You cannot blame moderators that easily. Some should just stay from such conversations.

 

[Daffa]

People use the models on this site for their maps and get decent results. The models may not be Blizzard or Electronic Arts quality but they are decent for maps for this 10 year old game. Heck sometimes even indie game authors ask me if they can use your models. I tell them they must give credit and if they want to sell the games they make, they have to ask you directly. The models aren't perfect but they are still worth a lot to many of us.

We are working on getting the number of pending resources down, but as many of you say, moderators do this for their own pleasure. It's what they do when they come tired home from school or work (or sometimes at work). I understand that 4 months may seem like a long time and it is. But it's not like a model submitted today will wait 4 months to get approved. Some models are stuck in pending because we need to decide what to do with them. Many of them are low quality or simple edits but may still be useful. The high quality models are usually approved much quicker. I know this may be "unacceptable" to some of you, but that's the way it is and I am working to fix it.

I never know that happens, those Indie stuffs, perhaps I lack even basic knowledge and information of what going on in some sections.

Yeah, I have to agree it's pretty much it's difficult with simple but possibly useful edits if they can be approved or not. And next to it, wether they should be transferred to Blizzard Entertainment or not.

Denied.

Okay, I'm sure you have good reasons for them.

You see now guys, just two people are enough to misread each one's post and long unnecessary unneeded conversations can occur (even arguing and worse). I do not talk about Quilnez, I talk about generally, which is common these days when few (relatively) new people without some experience are talking and even like in those cases, discussion and requesting some stuff.
For example, we are not talking about tastes ,,I think this model look good", we are talking about serious stuff.
People need to know much about subject which they are talking about. There is reason between ,,I think this should work like that" and ,,I think this should work like that becaus I have seen this for years, and if we did that in past, we got those results.... if we do this, that will happen etc etc...", some people whose recently joined starts to creating thread talking about serious stuff which they do not understand and they are not aware what they caused.
Thats why Ralle ended today with sentence ,,you do not know what you are talking about" (something like that, I really did not follow entire stuff) when random people wanted to organize, judge contests, causing only damage because everyone argued themselves regarding this (with following drama). They do not understand how complex system is and what is all required for such contests etc etc...
Same situation we got here in this very thread. People whose resources are not approved or reviewed yet, join to complain on moderators, just like that. If they were here for years for example, or were staff members themselves, they would know how system works here, how complex can be some stuff, therefore they would not complain on moderators (being lazy) that easily. They would think twice before posting such things.
here for example, Ralle, General Frank, Mini Mage, GhostWolf, Keiji, me and some others are here long enough to know how system functions, what are those good points and drawbacks, we know what combinations/redesigns/changes we did in past, what and how worked, so overally we know what on to base our opinions. We have seen it for years. But certain people just do not understand that they are no match to join yet again to start such conversations which requires some knowledge and experience. You cannot blame moderators that easily. Some should just stay from such conversations.

Yes, moderation and approval takes time and difficult judgement. It's not like that it's possible to reject/approve in the first 2 second of viewing a resources with proper reasons.

 

[Shadow Fury]

Oh my... I really ask myself how the hell you switched from "I am concerned about the models section pending models" to "Moderators bla bla bla... people misread bla bla bla...".

Well, allow me to express my opinion on this situation which apparently seems fraught with delicateness. Moderators should show some signs of activity. Clearly, we hivers cannot demand you moderators to be active 24 hours a day but at least you should how that you've not become moderators to relax afterwards and fall in deep inactivity. Otherwise, who will run all the sections? We blatantly don't want pending resources to accumulate in an unbridled way. Moderators are the pillars of this website. If they collapse, the whole hive collapses as well.

Another point... you moderators + users registered from years are the big examples for the hivers. Keeping a civil non-aggressive tone is very mandatory for you. I was really disappointed on how General Frank "attacked" WhiteFang or how MiniMage aggressively expressed his views. Guys... what happened? Firstly you were simply talking, then you started to argue. Don't lose your temper so easily please.

A message to moderators: Don't think that you're not appreciated for your job. People might not clearly show that you are appreciated by them but that doesn't mean they consider your efforts a bit of rubbish. After all, if it wasn't for you moderators, no resource would've been approved. No useful critiques would've been released. No real motivation to improve would've been given to newbies.

 

[Kazeon]

... if it wasn't for you moderators ... No useful critiques would've been released.

Erm.. before it starts another worthless debate, maybe you want to remove that part? Because it's totally not true.

About Franky, he unconsciously showed why he shouldn't go back to the rank staff, why many people will be displeased to see him moderating stuffs again (I read some of your conversations in the chat room). I'm just saying. Moderator should have intention to help, not to attack.

 

[Shadow Fury]

Probably I probably expressed myself badly on that point. Let me reword. If it wasn't for you moderators, no real full critiques (as most users tend to release short reviews) would've been released. ANYWAY, this is not the case to go off-topic, let's remain on-topic without deviations.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Erm.. before it starts another worthless debate,

Whaaat? I see the points in the debate of multiple parties aimed to argue what would be the best for the model section / site. I wouldn't call that worthless, or useless rather.

A message to moderators: Don't think that you're not appreciated for your job. People might not clearly show that you are appreciated by them but that doesn't mean they consider your efforts a bit of rubbish. After all, if it wasn't for you moderators, no resource would've been approved. No useful critiques would've been released. No real motivation to improve would've been given to newbies.

Oh, a message to me. I speak from my point of view only as that's usually (always?) the case.

Hypothetically speaking, if there weren't any resource moderators there likely would be an alternative system. In your second post, you state that no real full critiques would be released. I don't think that's true. I see users giving "real full" critiques as much as much, or more, than moderators. However, moderating isn't about critiquing.

That's too much nitpicking the less relevant statements for now. Anyway, the big picture is that I'm pretty sure moderators know were appreciated, but sometimes people get to demanding for quick moderation.

Another point... you moderators + users registered from years are the big examples for the hivers. Keeping a civil non-aggressive tone is very mandatory for you. I was really disappointed on how General Frank "attacked" WhiteFang or how MiniMage aggressively expressed his views. Guys... what happened? Firstly you were simply talking, then you started to argue. Don't lose your temper so easily please.

What happened was I heard it was common for things like that to happen in the past ^^. Sometimes being aggressive helps bring out points. If it isn't causing harm, then let it be. Yes, harm can be indirectly caused due to being role models (Hive Role Models, lol), but I don't think it was as severe as you think.

But why clog the section with cheap crap. Most modellers also upload to the forum for people to download.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. On battle.net, few people care about the quality of models. Of the times I chat with people about model quality on B.net, the super majority say they only care if a model is fitting to the map and if the file size is low enough. My point is that people will not just download quality models.

If Hive has a wide array of differing models, I say that's better than having a smaller sample of good models. Perhaps artists, like your self, would disagree, but I'm trying to speak for the majority of the WC3 and Hive community.

 

[General Frank]

No, I agree with you on the models. But I think it is mostly better to offer better stuff in general.

 

[Shadow Fury]

Once again, I'll have to be more precise. Excluding the maps section, whenever I look at the comments on resources, I usually find things like "Yeah good one X/5" or "I don't like it X/5". Most of the times I find lengthy and useful comments from moderators but hardly from users. Now, please stop this conversation as this is not the aim of the thread. If you want to continue this debate, open another thread or contact me via PM/VM.

 

[MasterHaosis]

About Franky, he unconsciously showed why he shouldn't go back to the rank staff, why many people will be displeased to see him moderating stuffs again (I read some of your conversations in the chat room).

If you mean by Franky (General Frank, but maybe you meant another user if I misread something), I do not remember since when this thread is about him.
Also, as far I know he is not planing to get back in staff again, so no point of discussing about him in this thread.

If you want to discuss about verious people if they would fit in job or not, open thread (if staff let you do that), so people can discuss that.

I'm just saying. Moderator should have intention to help, not to attack.

I agree with you about that, that is how it should work all time.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. On battle.net, few people care about the quality of models. Of the times I chat with people about model quality on B.net, the super majority say they only care if a model is fitting to the map and if the file size is low enough. My point is that people will not just download quality models.

If Hive has a wide array of differing models, I say that's better than having a smaller sample of good models. Perhaps artists, like your self, would disagree, but I'm trying to speak for the majority of the WC3 and Hive community.

Exactly. I always was for option to approve all stuff, which are approvable, of course, but not matter if they have good or bad quality, but to rate them with high standards.
So if someone wants for example to kill his time, he would play any map he finds. If someone for example wants professional and high quality maps to be played, he would filter rate 5, or 4 or director's cut. There was no reason to use only high stuff, as you said, some trash can be someone's treasure.
But of course, that is science fiction now, since this cannot never be done, as damage is already done.

Excluding the maps section, whenever I look at the comments on resources, I usually find things like "Yeah good one X/5" or "I don't like it X/5". Most of the times I find lengthy and useful comments from moderators but hardly from users.

You are right about that, I have seen this too.
But that doe not change anything, as its up to user to determine if he is going to post quick reply or write longer. he has right to post opinion and rate.

With all respect who declared you to the the vanguard of this thread?

Have you ready my previous post?
This is exactly what I was talking about there. That is just one of examples, there are tons of those. Everyone (whose are no match yet due to lower activity or experience) wants to organize, create, judge contests, to blame at moderators, to be vanguards (without having clue yet how complex some things are)

 

[MiniMage]

Well then, people. As suggested by Keiji. With a more calm approach and a good rest I will try and tackle this topic again instead of being enraged by petty accusations and demands earlier on in this thread.
Please note, I will not re-review these previous things because despite a rather uncivil phrasing, is nothing but the truth. Sure, aggressive truth but truth nevertheless.

Well, allow me to express my opinion on this situation which apparently seems fraught with delicateness. Moderators should show some signs of activity. Clearly, we hivers cannot demand you moderators to be active 24 hours a day but at least you should how that you've not become moderators to relax afterwards and fall in deep inactivity.

Here's the issue that most of you other people don't get. I'm not sitting on my ass and being inactive because I am lazy. In fact, I moderated two pages each week personally. As it is, some members have come to the conclusion that quantity is better than quality. I shall present arguments. For one, this week, I brought it down to six pending pages twice, meaning that I moderated about 4 pages while still waking up 05:00 and getting home 19:30. Meaning that your speed of uploading has gone up, we haven't gone down.

People are so into jumping on the bandwagon that they fail to grasp where the real issue lies. It's not that we're not active, far from it. But that your uploading speed is crazy. While most of the moderating is from me, it's not strange that I don't have the time to go in depth on each model I am trying to moderate. Currently, the amount of time I have is to point out potential, point out flaws and make it functional. If it works, I may later make a more detailed summary in a post on that resource. Revisiting is something that happens often.

Like me, what General Frank was pointing out was a little poorly phrased but the message is rather clear. Focus on quality instead of quantity, release a magnificent work of art instead of 12 crappy submissions. Instead of using my moderation to help you improve, you instead see it as a crappy boundary to hinder you from expanding your gallery, this is the wrong mindset. Let me demonstrate. Currently, a total of six pages are pending. Half of these pages is two people.

Mythic (2 pages),
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models.php?status=p&d=list&r=20&u=Mythic

Hayate (1 page),
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models.php?status=p&d=list&r=20&u=Hayate

Though I do acknowledge great improvements with Hayate. But he is wasting his potential by speedrunning models into the pending section.

I was really disappointed on how General Frank "attacked" WhiteFang or how MiniMage aggressively expressed his views. Guys... what happened? Firstly you were simply talking, then you started to argue. Don't lose your temper so easily please.

I snapped when after giving a perfectly reasonable explanation why there were still models left, my comment was completely disregarded because he was in the mood stand up in the bandwagon and shine the lights on his ego. I do not mind if you complain, but please do not do it to boost your confidence. If you're not even connected to the issue at hand, do not touch the subject. If you do not understand what you're talking about, it is just being an asshole. No one wants to be an asshole.

As for why I snapped however, I probably shouldn't have made my comment just after getting home from a long work day, I was tired and cranky and I didn't like when people make demands about a fictional quota when I already had moderated four pages that week. The issue was that you had also added 4 and a half pages by that time.

A message to moderators: Don't think that you're not appreciated for your job. People might not clearly show that you are appreciated by them but that doesn't mean they consider your efforts a bit of rubbish. After all, if it wasn't for you moderators, no resource would've been approved. No useful critiques would've been released. No real motivation to improve would've been given to newbies.

Thanks for that, I appreciate that. Always nice to hear.

I hope I have answered most worries, denied most issues and resolved any loose threads or questions you may have.
However, since the original topic was worries. Does anyone of you guys have questions instead? What are you worried about?

Ask questions, do not come with complaints and no demands.
What do you like to know? Post these questions instead. It's a much wiser and more civil approach.

 

[eubz]

Faulty and crappy models should be rejected while others should be set to needs fix. This is not an easy work for moderators these days as what MiniMage said, uploading of models becomes too fast and real life hinders this fast moderation. All I could see is moderation nowadays becomes a one man job. Where have all the other moderators gone?

 

[Kazeon]

Faulty and crappy models should be rejected while others should be set to needs fix. This is not an easy work for moderators these days as what MiniMage said, uploading of models becomes too fast and real life hinders this fast moderation. All I could see is moderation nowadays becomes a one man job. Where have all the other moderators gone?

This is just coincident. They are not gone. Just like what Ralle said:

We are working it out. Misha's computer is broken, Kwaliti is super busy and I have managed to totally confuse MiniMage. We are doing what we can to work this out. If anybody lives near Misha and has a computer they don't need, you could help by giving it to him.

Anyway, "nowadays" isn't the right term to be used there, it covers a quite long period such as "the last one year or two". Whereas I saw Misha was quite active in moderating not a long time ago. The only thing you can do is to be patient, moderators don't have time all the year, but Hive is not dead all the year as well.

 

[MiniMage]

Where have all the other moderators gone?

Since Ralle slammed down the hammer a while back..

Mishas has been second guessing his every decision, but he did moderate a little bit, then now, recently, his computer broke down.
Deolrin's motivation to moderate broke down. He's somewhat active with contests though.
Kwaliti broke down. He lurks the real world, but beware, for the real world is a dangerous place.
MiniMage, me, have been a little confused since that happened, but have at times just continued as before at times, normally just moderating based on a priority, attachments being the lowest, thus why the pending section is building up with them.

The only thing you can do is to be patient, moderators don't have time all the year, but Hive is not dead all the year as well.

While I appreciate the sentiment, the idea was to allow for moderators to answer questions and let normal members ask questions. Thus, if you're unsure about something, you wont be anymore after being answered, thus resolving a lot of unneeded stress.

You guys are terrible at asking questions. XD

 

[fladdermasken]

Closed. Continue here http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...ere-too-many-pending-resources-thread-264617/. If you want.