Read the first part at least
So yeah. Sorry again for whatever part I may have played in holding things up. I don't know who all would actually be joining (seems like more & more of you are saying
"this is the way things should go, but I won't be joining"), but if enough people still wanna do this & squeeze one in before Winter Break, well, good on ya. : )
My wife could tell you that I have a
very high tolerance for the arguing of semantics... However, even
my abilities are becoming taxed in this regard, for this discussion. I may finish typing up full responses to each of you that talked to me & others... Maybe have to use PMs or VMs or whatever. But for now, I'm just about hitting my peak of having to explain things again & again, or try to understand a varying perspective.
I think, believe it or not, that this whole thing has been a net-success; at the very least people are
thinking about this issue. If we were to start next week (eesh, right when college starts back up for me...), that would be alright. I may not have accomplished all I set out to do, but again; we're thinking about this, and the conversation will be all the more informed once we have one of these "new Contests" under our collective belts.
However,
we must finalize this criteria. If you have
any time, please go over me & GhostThruster's proposed "Contest Header Thread" submissions (
His and
Mine), and talk about it. That's the only & most important thing left to discuss, because once that's set, this can "go live".
Again, it's been a pleasure. I look forward to really making these things come to life!
===
===INDIVIDUALIZED RESPONSES, IN BRIEF
===(LOL NOT REALLY)
GHOSTTHRUSTER
- when I say "Theme", I'm talking about a lot more than simply the 'theme' of the given Contest and whether the submissions match it. Does that make sense?
- yeah, making sure judges do their thing the right way is important.
- not sure what you mean, but that's exactly my point; "can't compare apples to oranges" means what you said (which fruit is more citrusy? which fruit has cyanide in it's seeds? etc). In this case, an example of "apples to oranges" comparison would be "mini-races to full races" or even worse, "wc3 races to non-wc3 races". A mini-race stacks up poorly against a full race (both in the amount of work that is assumed to go into it (less, = lazy
(no not really, I'm just making an example of what people think))) as well as balance & other stuff... And worse, wc3 races to non-wc3 races. Sure, it may not matter in terms of diverse "Themes" (my Trolls stack up OK against your Nether Elephants
), but in terms of diverse "Roles" or "Gameplay Mechanics"... Well our "melee-style races" will appear pretty boring next to some of the "crazy/creative race mechanics" people can put in their race. Even if both are "perfect" for their setting (I make a 'perfect' wc3-style race, you make a 'perfect'... any-other-style race), they don't compare well, being so different. Apples to Oranges.
Hope that made more sense. Don't mean to mince words, throwing 'style' around.
- EXACTLY! Nothing can be "Balanced" in a vacuum. Nothing can be "Creative/Innovative/Interesting" in a vacuum, either, I'd contend. So those 2 Criteria,
while important, are not
intrinsic; they aren't purely-indicative of
Design (which, I'd argue, is what this Contest's all about).
What
is intrinsic, built-in, and "able to be determined in a vacuum" is the Theme & the Role (or Presentation/Concept and Gameplay/Style, for your voting method). How is it like, and How does it work? What does it look like, and What does it do? Where is it from, and Where does it go?
So instead of having a Hero Contest where
it's not clear what the Heroes are made for (AoS, TD, hero arena, mario kart (lololol)), I think
each & every Hero Contest should make it clear. (NOTE: I don't care if it changes from Contest to Contest, or if we have "Hero Contest: AoS" and "Hero Contest: Melee". Sure, why not! But make it clear, and
make it so defined.)
Similarly, instead of having a Techtree Contest where it's not clear what the Races are made for (Wc3, AoM, Sc... 5th-race addition, replacement/total conversion, entirely-new-game, etc), I think
each & every Techtree Contest should make it clear. (NOTE: I don't care if it changes from Contest to Contest, or if we have "Techtree Contest: 5th Race Addition" and "Techtree Contest: Total Conversion". Sure, why not! But make it clear
up front, and
make it defined.)
- We can tell people all we want to "vote responsibly" and "vote on criteria, not how fun/pretty it is", but that's about as effective as telling people not to text & drive or think about sex (I believe). We can encourage all we want, but 1) depowering the public poll, and 2) removing the votes of those who don't conform (subject to moderators & such) is pretty much all we can do, to start with.
- I guess it's hard to say, since it's such a spectrum & we sometimes seem to be thinking of different things. For examples, if I make a Melee-style race, even 'perfectly', it'll lose out to someone who does a more interesting racial mechanic or play-style (one that Wc3 might not be able to support), because "It's more Creative!!". I think that.
But let's say we're both making races... If both have units trained by buildings; warriors that attack & gatherers who harvest; the race uses Wood & Gold, and is limited by Food; and if the race grows in power & utility over the game (i.e. Tiers)... Well a lot can still be done in those parameters, and it could be argued (not by me) that those are "apples to apples".
But what about a race that uses
Food as a resource? Or has no buildings? Or whose units are invincible but deal no damage & can only block for the Hero? Or one who gains Gold/Wood over time & can't spend it? Has no 'increase in power'? Has no harvesters? No warriors? Only harvesters? Only warriors? 1 hero, 3 heroes, 10 heroes???
Those, to me, would be
wildly divergent, and definitely "apples to oranges". Perhaps even "apples to tacos". xD Maybe they can be balanced in some other game... Maybe even against the original 4. But in terms of "balanced against the other contestants" (and here I'm talking about equity & justice, not "gameplay balance"), I feel that that kind of race fails.
- I think we should
absolutely get into the "philosophical and conceptual intent of techtree contests". However, maybe not here, and maybe not now. Perhaps it'd be better to rename this all over to a "Techtree Contest Discussion Thread" and keep discussion to the Contest-at-hand (or just make a new thread, more likely).
But if we don't talk about it
somewhere, it'll never get better. And I think it
does need to be better (you, I & Veljkom all seem to agree on that).
- YOUR PROPOSED TECHTREE CONTEST THREAD:
-Overall I liked it. I don't agree with the description of "twaddle"; I can be verbose, but almost everything in there is there for a reason. Would like to hammer that out with you, but perhaps not now.
-See the note to Footman16 at the bottom of my post; should we pick some map
other than a "forest-y" or "desert-y" one? Like snow-land, or Village Fall, or something? Otherwise one race will have a sort of visual "advantage" (as well as the "home turf advantage". xD)
-30% to the Poll?? Too much. Please try 25%
- Would it be better if I provided a nice & neat table for my Criteria?
| Theme: | How well the various elements of the Faction (including aesthetics & design) fit together in a thematic manner such that they feel like they are representative of the given Faction, as well as that of the chosen Contest Theme. Well-fitting & polished aesthetics which complement a cohesive Theme will be graded well; poorly-considered or lacking Thematic elements will result in a poor score. | 10 |
Role: | How well the various elements of the Faction work together to achieve the tactical synergy & gameplay style the Faction has, as well as how well each element performs it's particular function. Comprehensive, well-though-out Roles which complement a cohesive Faction will be graded well; ill-considered, insufficient or over-compensating Roles will lose points. | 10 |
Balance: | Indicates how comparable the Faction is in terms of 'playability'; i.e. the ideal Faction should win/lose 50% of the time against others of it's class. Overpowered or Underpowered units/heroes/abilities/etc will result in a poor score; properly balanced elements will mean a good score. | 10 |
Creativity: | How original the design of the Faction is in terms of innovative ideas, clever implementations, or creative concepts. Innovation and creativity will be rewarded; re-use of existing elements & poor originality will result in a poor score. | 10 |
Awesomeness: | The most subjective of all grading criteria. This attempts to quantify exactly how awesome a Faction's overall design feels. This is the "subjective elbow room" for people to talk about how "cool" or "nifty" or "rad" the Faction is. | 5 |
|
Total points:
| 45
|
It may look like "filler", but I really feel it's important to have clear expectations at least
hinted at in each Criteria-box. i.e. "This is what "Balance" means for this Contest. ___ is an example of Good Balance; __ is an example of Bad Balance".
It may seem obvious, but again... No unwritten assumptions.
KINGZ
- I have no problem with your "branching techtrees" idea; it's actually rather creative and wouldn't (I think) go outside the "12-unit limit", because as long as only 12 units are available at a time, it's alright.
It basically means, though, that you'd be making 2/3/4/etc complete races (multiple-sets for all the branches), and that kind of work is a bit "above and beyond the call of duty".
- "Adding a creative play style is what tech tree contest should be about imo." Alright, it's good to gather some more opinions on this matter. I disagree. Perhaps that's part of the issue (and something I've tried to address in my Megapost & other posts); I've learned we can't take
anything for granted. That's why I've so painstakingly explained what
I mean by "Theme" and "Role", and what
I think Contests should/are be about.
Check it out. : )
VELJKOM
- "Oh and in this contest the constraints were always in the poll, we just never saw them..."
Thank you. :<
- *sigh* When I said "Lush vs. Arid", I wasn't trying to change the Contest's Theme or scope thereof
at all. I was literally just suggesting (what I felt was) a better name for it. Still doing Forest vs. Desert, I hope; just calling it something "cooler".
Not a massive deal. Just a suggestion 'cuz I like words & stuff. : )
FOOTMAN16
- You're interpretation of the "Biome" idea is interesting, but
not what it was when it was created & decided upon as an Option in the Poll. Did you read that description I wrote &
still come up with that interpretation?
That's kinda my point with GhostThruster & the others... Take 1 word and 5 people will have 5 different interpretations of it. That's cool & interesting... Except when you pit those 5 against each other & compare them, grade them. We
need to be on the same page.
I would argue that "picking a race that lives in a given Biome" would still result in a race "fitting to that Biome". Any 'forest/desert-dwelling race' is going to have 'forest/desert' powers, units, buildings, themes, etc. Furbolgs with druidic nature magic, Centaur's with gruesome desert-y & heat magic... (Wood) Elves with fancy tree magic, Sand Trolls with sand magic... I'm not seeing the issue. Sure, my "Forest Trolls" might not have a lot of "forest magic"... But I guess that wasn't the point of the Contest, to me. I wanted people to make "warcraft 3/lore" races, but instead of picking from ALL OF THEM EVER ANYWHERE, limit it to a certain climate or whatever. Hence "biome".
- "delete this waste of a thread."
I disagree heartily with that sentiment, good sir. Not only have I sunk hours of my life into posting here, but I feel this kind of discussion is integral, nay
crucial to our understanding of these Contests & our own self-betterment.
Like I said above (hopefully it was read), perhaps renaming this "Discussion Thread" and moving the true "next Contest" discussion elsewhere would be prudent, though.
- Actually, you make a totally legitimate point; this "Biome" thing won't work if people making Desert races are stuck in the "Lost Temple" map (green-green-water-green), and vice versa... Criminy.
Lol, maybe we should all just pick a Snow Level so it's neutral territory. xD
