Techtree Contest #9 - Poll #2!

[Kyrbi0]

Rework of eubz' good first take. All the pertinent information (that isn't provided in the Poll itself) can be found there.

Please be aware!! This poll has 3 sections; the Role (part of how the contest will be run), the Theme (the concept or idea behind everyone's entry), and the Level of Imports that should be allowed. It's a multivote poll, but don't abuse that and vote for everything; that's a good way for your vote to mean NOTHING. : )

Also, Please explain your vote, and provide alternatives if you don't like the stuff provided.

 

[eubz]

This is much more refined.
Voted for biome with no imports, that would be a nice combination.

 

[Kyrbi0]

VOTE EXPLANATION

I voted for No/Limited Imports 'cuz I think that's best & helps things from becoming a "HEY I HAVE THE COOLEST MODLZ" contest. Personally, I'd like "Limiting" it to 1... Because I do like imports, but 1 is a great equalizer (in my past experience with the Wc3C Contest)

I voted for Partial/Mini-Race 'cuz it is better. Mainly because it's easier/simpler/more doable; Easier to plan, easier to make, and easier to judge. Takin' it to the grave.

I voted for Transitory (might actually be cool if we can come up with something besides "werewolves") and (my own idea) Biome... And for the latter, I'm stuck on my first idea "Forest", though I'd be willing to try something not Barrens else anything but Barrens.

Gogo!

 

[eubz]

Mini-race is cool but pretty much difficult to balance with usual race.

 

[Kyrbi0]

That's one argument I'm not sure I'll understand. Sure, you have less options, less units/heroes/etc overall... But as long as it has the same, core units (Worker, Melee, Ranged, Caster, Siege, Flyer, etc) with the same, core functions (tank, dps, siege, harass, buff, debuff, etc), what could possibly go wrong?

But seriously. I may have to go & look up my posts & PMs from Wc3C where I defended this idea (since I've forgotten), but it's just bound for greatness. : )

 

[Kingz]

Full race, Custom Resource, Unlimited Imports.

No imports was done already (as was replacement melee and super unit).

 

[VeljkoM]

Voting Explanation:

Voted for Biome as theme. I just prefer it more compared to others.

Voted for Full Race. Because I feel like Mini-race is unfinished product like model with no texture. I still also think mini-race doesn't fit with Wc3 gameplay even if you manage to balance all the inequalities.

Voted for Unlimited Imports because I feel in-game models aren't enough for races besides main ones (You shouldn't really use all 8mbs for 1 race). If there is limit though any chance it can be limited by map size and not number of imports?

 

[Kingz]

Mini race can't be balanced around normal races, since it's impossible.
You would either gate the unit's functionality/power with upgrades or make them universal to start with.

Both ways are questionable and both can be exploited against normal races.
That is my opinion anyway.

Edit:

I think imports should be more clarified somewhere, since imports can be considered triggers/vjass code also.
Since reinventing the wheel is not that smart, i would like to know if triggers/jass can be excluded from any import limitations if they were to be decided by the poll.

 

[VeljkoM]

I thought only stuff that goes in the import editor counts as actual imports.

 

[Kingz]

Guess it depends on the view.
True you do not import scripts in the sense of using the import manager but they are listed as a resource on THW and I treat them as such and equal to other resources (icons/models/skins).

That is why i bring it up anyway, as far as i remember custom code was allowed in the no-import tech tree contest.

 

[kari0003]

Alright. I voted Nomad, Super Unit, and Custom Resource because they bring the kind of new, interesting features for the entries i would like to see.

I don't really mind if its full race or 1 tier race, but i don't think if it comes to 1 tier race you should punish contestants who do more

For imports, i voted for Unlimited Imports, we already had No Imports. Although i would add, that if it comes to BIOME theme, no import would be the way to go

 

[rulerofiron99]

Custom Resource - Because it's fun.
Mini Race - Easier to make, and makes it possible to do races that have only a few models.
Unlimited - I really don't like seeing a Gnoll Sharpshooter in an Ogre army because an Ogre with a stone throwing animation wasn't available.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Thanks for all the voting & explanations. Please, if you have voted & not explained (I'm lookin' at you, Pharaoh (lol, I was surprised to see you voted) ), please do so; that's kinda the whole point of this Poll & our long conversations in the other thread.

No imports was done already (as was replacement melee and super unit).

For imports, i voted for Unlimited Imports, we already had No Imports.

Yeah, but that's sort of the distinction that needs to be made; "No Imports" is (no offense to the previous contest or contestants) silly for a "Theme". It isn't a Theme, that's part of the problem. A "Theme" is the concept or idea that we're all working for; restricting or un-restricting the number of Imports has more to do with how the Contest itself is being operated or run than it does the Concept behind it.

So to say it was "done already" is, I think, an unnecessary distinction. It's a question of whether we want to make this (and/or other) contests Operate in this fashion.

Voting Explanation:

Voted for Biome as theme. I just prefer it more compared to others.

Yay: You like my theme! But which Biome? Remember, the Poll says "indicate which one you would want to go for". I'd rather not make an entirely separate poll for that issue.

Mini race can't be balanced around normal races, since it's impossible.
You would either gate the unit's functionality/power with upgrades or make them universal to start with.

Both ways are questionable and both can be exploited against normal races.
That is my opinion anyway.

(What do you mean by "gate the unit's functionality/power..."?)

Ah dannae, man. Again, just because Naga were an example doesn't mean we have to run our Contest the exact same way; maybe we decide for "Partial" instead of "Mini" and allow for 2 Tiers ("Basic" & "Advanced"). Or some other concession could be made; I just use "campaign Naga" since that's something we're all familiar with. : )

I think imports should be more clarified somewhere, since imports can be considered triggers/vjass code also.
Since reinventing the wheel is not that smart, i would like to know if triggers/jass can be excluded from any import limitations if they were to be decided by the poll.

That's a really good point... I kinda feel like users should be allowed to use systems, because the "Coding" part of this contest isn't the top priority (as it is with Zephyr contests, and as it partially is with Hero contests)... And either way, it's not considered an "import" in my mind, so much as a resource or tool that lets you get the job done (i.e. allows coding certain racial aspects or whatnot).

 

[VeljkoM]

Originally Posted by Kyrib0
Yay: You like my theme! But which Biome? Remember, the Poll says "indicate which one you would want to go for". I'd rather not make an entirely separate poll for that issue.

Oh we all will do same biome? I thought everyone would have a choice so to avoid everyone having same racial theme. Well I myself was considering desert or corrupt but can't decide at the moment.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Oh we all will do same biome? I thought everyone would have a choice so to avoid everyone having same racial theme. Well I myself was considering desert or corrupt but can't decide at the moment.

Yeah... That was the idea, based on this (quote in message linked through "Biome" category):

But I'll suggest my own (sorry for not thinking of this sooner): "Biome"! (Been playing Terraria a lot lately with my wife, and they feature this).

Basically each Contest (could work for multiple) we'd pick a Biome to focus on. So say this contest we do Forest Biome as the Theme. That means you can pick any race that lives in the Forest (Furbolgs, Satyr, Forest Trolls, Night Elves (eh), Woodland Creatures, Emerald Dream (?), etc). Other Biomes could be Jungle (Creepy Crawlies, Lizard-men, Murlocs/Naga, Jungle Trolls, etc), Desert (Qirajji (sp?), Sand Trolls, Wind/Earth Elementals, Cactus-people), Underwater (Naga, Murlocs, Sea Giants, Lobstrokk, etc), Mountain (Dwarves (Ironforge or Wildhammer or Dark Iron), Goat-men, Gryphons, Cloud Giants, etc), etc.

"Biome" would be too broad for one contest, but a particular Biome for each contest could work, I think.

 

[VeljkoM]

Yeah Biomes are broad but just one is too narrow. I thought theme of biome was to create race not based of usual "faction" and instead based of biome of choosing so to avoid usual races. Guess that is just my feeling though. How bout at least few options, 2 at least? Even seals from last contest gave you 5 choices for which seal you wanted.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Lol, the Seals... Have my own gripes about that.

And I dunno, but depending on the Biome I think there are plenty of options. Heck, WoWwiki is a great resource for this (click on an area and see all the races that live there).

I guess it also depends on how many people you think will actually join; but for Forest alone I came up with 4-5 different options (and I'm sure there are at least twice that many). Ice world, Lava world, Jungle world, Desert world, Mountain world... It's like a video game!

That being said, perhaps we can do "Continental" Techtree's; each Contest we pick a Continent (Northrend, Azeroth, Lordaeron, Kalimdor, etc) and focus on that (i.e. each Faction/Race must be from that continent).

(lol, I keep coming up with ideas that should've been come up with before the Poll was made...)

 

[Kingz]

What i meant about mini race was:

1. Universal Units: Units boast stats which make them overpowered in comparison to their equivalents of normal race. Example of this is the Naga race. Their base stats are so high and it's obvious. Core melee unit has grunts attack power, with footman hp range but it's cheaper than both. Their Dragon Turtle siege unit boasts incredible stats for a siege unit along with powerful abilities. Myrmidons have identical stats as abominations but cost cheaper and can be built straight away. This means that the Naga will win any outright battles by sheer stat power because their units are cheaper and universal.

2. Gated power: Unit's strength comes from upgrades (be it abilities or stats). To prevent universal units like in the Naga case you would have to delay the power spike with upgrades. The bad thing here is that researching is tied to the enemy you face and their army composition. In case of multitude races your power spike comes way into late game or way too fast depending how you "gated" the units power.

 

[BlackKnightTGS]

I vote for Biome with a Desert theme, Full Tech Tree and Unlimited Imports.

I was originally going to vote for Nomad or Transitory, but Biome sounds more interesting to me, and I'd love to see desert-themed races (like Centaurs ).

As for Full Tech Tree, I think it's going to be too much of a pain to balance a mini-race to be equally powerful to the other 4 full races, unless they are designed as elitists or have overly-practical units that are too efficient in multiple roles (compared to the other race's counterparts). *cough*Naga*cough*

And as for Unlimited Imports, I was going to vote for no Imports at first, to see what people would do with that restriction, but then I thought there might not be enough assets to work with, especially for a (Desert) Biome full-techtree race.

 

[VeljkoM]

Lol, the Seals... Have my own gripes about that.

And I dunno, but depending on the Biome I think there are plenty of options. Heck, WoWwiki is a great resource for this (click on an area and see all the races that live there).

I guess it also depends on how many people you think will actually join; but for Forest alone I came up with 4-5 different options (and I'm sure there are at least twice that many). Ice world, Lava world, Jungle world, Desert world, Mountain world... It's like a video game!

That being said, perhaps we can do "Continental" Techtree's; each Contest we pick a Continent (Northrend, Azeroth, Lordaeron, Kalimdor, etc) and focus on that (i.e. each Faction/Race must be from that continent).

(lol, I keep coming up with ideas that should've been come up with before the Poll was made...)

Well what i meant is if we all do for example forest, all entries will have similar looks. I just thought that variation between entries would be better. Not asking for unlimited Biomes but at least some basic choice. I mean you said you were inspired by Terraria for this theme and isn't whole point in that game that biomes fight each other? I didn't notice any other Biome voter saying which Biome either so I suspect I am not the only one who thought Biomes had wider choice. Also I am not really planing to strictly use warcraft lore for biome race.

And Continental is perhaps a bit too wide for a biome but yeah at least that gives choices.

Original post by Kingz

What i meant about mini race was:

1. Universal Units: Units boast stats which make them overpowered in comparison to their equivalents of normal race. Example of this is the Naga race. Their base stats are so high and it's obvious. Core melee unit has grunts attack power, with footman hp range but it's cheaper than both. Their Dragon Turtle siege unit boasts incredible stats for a siege unit along with powerful abilities. Myrmidons have identical stats as abominations but cost cheaper and can be built straight away. This means that the Naga will win any outright battles by sheer stat power because their units are cheaper and universal.

2. Gated power: Unit's strength comes from upgrades (be it abilities or stats). To prevent universal units like in the Naga case you would have to delay the power spike with upgrades. The bad thing here is that researching is tied to the enemy you face and their army composition. In case of multitude races your power spike comes way into late game or way too fast depending how you "gated" the units power.

Ok although I am against mini-race I do feel like I should point out that we have established that naga is really bad example. Contestants have no reason to overpower units like Naga did so I think we are safe from units like mur'guls with grunt stats, flying units that cost 2 food yet strong as wind riders etc. That is really more result of really rushed (im)balance than mini-race status. Though I always suspected Naga was intended to be fully made and judging by shipyards and ships made for each race and sunken well all points out that naval combat was supposed to be the theme of expansion.

Second point is valid one as without tiers upgrades are available right away unless you add artificial limits like using advanced buildings as tiers though that isn't really a foolproof solution. Tiers are really key point for wc3 gameplay if you ask me.

I would also add few other points like most importantly heroes. Mini-race has just 1 and as they lack tiers they can't even hire from tavern to fill that gap. Wc3 is hero based rts so army with 1 hero is at disadvantage against regular armies with 3 heroes. And since you have just 1 hero who can't fill every hero type roll.

And last point I would say that mini-races have less tactical options as you have just the bare basics with lack of supporting units to add a bit of flavor. Honestly the only reason to do Mini race it is because it is easier to finish.

 

[Kingz]

Just curious, what happens if two themes get the same amount of votes?

 

[Bannar]

Ralle has to close the hive.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Just curious, what happens if two themes get the same amount of votes?

We either make a new poll with the two options or you pick a theme randomly.

 

[rulerofiron99]

We'll have a mini-contest to decide, naturally.

 

[Kyrbi0]

We'll have a mini-contest to decide, naturally.

WITH MINI RACES?? What luck. xD

 

[rulerofiron99]

Pure coincidence, I can assure you!

 

[Kyrbi0]

I vote for Biome with a Desert theme, Full Tech Tree and Unlimited Imports.

Thanks (& for explaining)!

I was originally going to vote for Nomad or Transitory, but Biome sounds more interesting to me, and I'd love to see desert-themed races (like Centaurs ).

Thanks for specifying the Biome. Although I have to say "Eww, this is what I was afraid of..."; I personally can't stand Barrens-themed stuff. First half of the Orc campaign in RoC is so "bleh" to me. :<

As for Full Tech Tree, I think it's going to be too much of a pain to balance a mini-race to be equally powerful to the other 4 full races, unless they are designed as elitists or have overly-practical units that are too efficient in multiple roles (compared to the other race's counterparts). *cough*Naga*cough*

Eesh... See, and now I'm beginning to question myself. If "Mini-race's are so bad, though, how did this become so popular and do so well?? Why is it no one brought this up (or at least not significantly) there? Just boggles the mind.

Maybe if the mini-race had to have 5 units or something... But with 6-10 (12 being a full-race; not that far off) I feel there's plenty of space, personally.

And as for Unlimited Imports, I was going to vote for no Imports at first, to see what people would do with that restriction, but then I thought there might not be enough assets to work with, especially for a (Desert) Biome full-techtree race.

Lol... I guess those two really were meant to work together, I'm finding. Sure, I agree; "No Imports" might be too restrictive for a full-race. BUT NOT FOR MINI-RACES MIRITE! ...

Well what i meant is if we all do for example forest, all entries will have similar looks. I just thought that variation between entries would be better. Not asking for unlimited Biomes but at least some basic choice. I mean you said you were inspired by Terraria for this theme and isn't whole point in that game that biomes fight each other? I didn't notice any other Biome voter saying which Biome either so I suspect I am not the only one who thought Biomes had wider choice. Also I am not really planing to strictly use warcraft lore for biome race.

And Continental is perhaps a bit too wide for a biome but yeah at least that gives choices.

'Not enough variation'? But in the five examples I listed off for Forest alone, there would be little-to-no repeats of color schemes & characters. Not sure I understand.

Basically, not everyone will make "woodland creatures" for Forest Biome, or "desert nomads" for Desert Biome, so it seems we'll have plenty of diversity.

Your point about Biome's fighting is valid. Not what I had in mind, but makes sense. I just don't know how to find a mid-level of restriction; 'Biome' is too big & 'Specific Biome' is (for you) too small. :<

Ok although I am against mini-race I do feel like I should point out that we have established that naga is really bad example. Contestants have no reason to overpower units like Naga did so I think we are safe from units like mur'guls with grunt stats, flying units that cost 2 food yet strong as wind riders etc. That is really more result of really rushed (im)balance than mini-race status.

Yeah!

Second point is valid one as without tiers upgrades are available right away unless you add artificial limits like using advanced buildings as tiers though that isn't really a foolproof solution. Tiers are really key point for wc3 gameplay if you ask me.

I would also add few other points like most importantly heroes. Mini-race has just 1 and as they lack tiers they can't even hire from tavern to fill that gap. Wc3 is hero based rts so army with 1 hero is at disadvantage against regular armies with 3 heroes. And since you have just 1 hero who can't fill every hero type roll.

And last point I would say that mini-races have less tactical options as you have just the bare basics with lack of supporting units to add a bit of flavor. Honestly the only reason to do Mini race it is because it is easier to finish.

^And that reason alone, to me, is nearly enough.

But again, consider that this is our own contest; nothing says we have to make Full (4heroes/12units/10bldgs/etc) or Naga/Mini (1hero/7units/6bldgs/etc)... Maybe we theorycraft a sort of "Partial Race", with 2 Tiers: 2(-3) Heroes, 8-10 units, etc. Then we've got something easier to make than a "Full-Race", but not as 'difficult to compare' (taking your issue) as the "Mini-Race".

Again, let's define "balance" instead of just talking about it; I would submit that it is merely "the issue of being able to have fun with & against the other races (i.e. winning & losing about evenly; not over-/under-powered)". Thusly I feel as long as a given Faction/Techtree/Race has all the basic unit-roles covered, it can be Balanced against the others & ultimately considered 'balanced'.

 

[Footman16]

I really hope we go with my preferred options, because I'm itchin' to use Daenar7's skins in this. I want to make a race based entirely off of new skins.

 

[Kingz]

I still think there is no way of balancing a race without following the same amount of tiers as in normal races.

Tho one thing we could do is lower the amount of "Full Race" heroes to 3 minimum, and lowering the minimum number of aerial units to 2 (one light/medium + one heavy).

Also just because mini-race had popularity on wc3c doesn't warrant it would have the same popularity here.

 

[Footman16]

Well one way of balancing it is to only have one race possible to play, it means that you only need to balance it against itself.

 

[Kingz]

Everything is balanced against itself. That isn't really a solution.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I really hope we go with my preferred options, because I'm itchin' to use Daenar7's skins in this. I want to make a race based entirely off of new skins.

Dang, Runic stuff? That'd be sick.

Well one way of balancing it is to only have one race possible to play, it means that you only need to balance it against itself.

Lol. That's one way to do it.

I still think there is no way of balancing a race without following the same amount of tiers as in normal races.

*sigh*

Tho one thing we could do is lower the amount of "Full Race" heroes to 3 minimum, and lowering the minimum number of aerial units to 2 (one light/medium + one heavy).

(Well, while HU/UD have 3, and NE have 4-5, the Orcs already have only 2...)

If nothing else, lowering the number of requisite Heroes would be quite a good compromise to me; Heroes are one of the single-biggest time-sinks & sources of work to make right. Still vying for Mini-Races, though this would be a good step.

Also just because mini-race had popularity on wc3c doesn't warrant it would have the same popularity here.

Ok... That's not really what I was saying (although if something worked then, it stands to reason it could work again now; if it ain't broke, don't fix it). But the people at Wc3C are no dummies/slackers; if there was a big glaring issue with Mini-Races (esp. something essential like 'balance'), I'm just trying to figure out how 40+ people missed it. :<

 

[GhostThruster]

biome because it's good to have a broad theme.

i didn't vote for 2nd because i believe the contestant should decide the layout of their techtree & the range of units within it because all that matters is the final balance, not how said balance is achieved.
also get rid of the stupid 'legion' judging category because it is redundant so long as the 'balance' category exists while discouraging creativity when it comes to contestants' choice of unit roles. judging criteria should be:
-Gameplay - how fun & polished (if it plays smoothly eg. hotkeys) it is
-Balance - relative single unit power & overall race balance (firstly judging whether a certain unit is op/up, then seeing how the race compares against itself and the melee ones)
-Presentation - aesthetic (if it looks pretty) & accessibility (different to being polished; if it easy to understand eg. tooltips)
-Concept - creativity, consistency & compliance to the contest theme

unlimited imports because why on earth do u want the entries to all be ugly? i mean, the point of a techtree contest is to see how brilliant the actual races are, not how sexy we can make them look without jigrael's models. plus we sometimes get contestants who go the extra mile in making their own custom resources specifically for the contest, eg) dio & 67chrome, and they shud be if not awarded than at least allowed to do so.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Thank you for your thoughts, GhostThruster; I was starting to wonder if anyone else had anything to say.

biome because it's good to have a broad theme.

Yeah!

i didn't vote for 2nd because i believe the contestant should decide the layout of their techtree & the range of units within it because all that matters is the final balance, not how said balance is achieved.
also get rid of the stupid 'legion' judging category because it is redundant so long as the 'balance' category exists while discouraging creativity when it comes to contestants' choice of unit roles. judging criteria should be:
-Gameplay - how fun & polished (if it plays smoothly eg. hotkeys) it is
-Balance - relative single unit power & overall race balance (firstly judging whether a certain unit is op/up, then seeing how the race compares against itself and the melee ones)
-Presentation - aesthetic (if it looks pretty) & accessibility (different to being polished; if it easy to understand eg. tooltips)
-Concept - creativity, consistency & compliance to the contest theme

You know... I almost don't mind going with this entirely. This is a really well-presented set of criteria, and covers pretty much all the bases; Theme & Role, Style & Balance, Presentation (good ey there, with 'aesthetic' and 'accessibility'; sometimes it's not the prettiest graphics that win the day, but a good aesthetic).

My only qualm is the issue of race size. As much as I'd love to be free to make "my" mini-race while everyone else does their 'preferred' full-race... I'd be a hypocrite. Thing is, I have been campaigning in several contests for Parameters to be set; for the Contest Design to include certain bounds & limits on how the entrants do things, so as to ensure equality. The Hero Contests (with everything from melee-style to AoS-style heroes) are a great example, but so are/would be this Techtree Contest, with full/partial/mini-style Factions.

I agree that Balance can be achieved (almost) irregardless of Faction size (i.e. full vs. partial vs. mini), but Balance isn't the only important thing; Equality is as well. If I were to win with a Mini-race, it would reflect poorly on others (i.e. "did less work, still got the better prize"). Almost akin to cheating. For consistency in judging/voting/determining, there must be some ground rules, standards & parameters that define the contest and impute accountability upon it's contestants.

unlimited imports because why on earth do u want the entries to all be ugly? i mean, the point of a techtree contest is to see how brilliant the actual races are, not how sexy we can make them look without jigrael's models. plus we sometimes get contestants who go the extra mile in making their own custom resources specifically for the contest, eg) dio & 67chrome, and they shud be if not awarded than at least allowed to do so.

Lol... I don't think this is about "races being ugly"; there are loads of good models already existing in Wc3 (depending on what race you are looking at). For that, I turn to a quote from good ol' Rising_Dusk:

So? I think it would be wonderful to see how contestants could creatively use the stuff already in the MPQs. If we permitted imports, you'd run into the problem of certain races having more representation in the database than others, giving entrants with those races a distinct advantage (Especially in the case of incredible resources). On the flip side, it could be very cool because then we wouldn't see a dozen of the same resources.

I say that if the entrants don't mind running the risk of losing because of race representation in the database, we could permit a limited amount of imports. My take on that is that we'd only be able to import a single model/portrait combo and a texture for that model if applicable. Nothing else at all. Any more and it's out of control; with just one it still makes the entrant think about where that model might count the most.

Hence the "Limited Imports" concept; allow users to "flesh out" a race if they need to (1, 2, 3-5? custom models, etc), but don't allow everyone to go "whole hog"; this gives an unfair advantage to those who choose races with better coverage (*cough* -Grendel & his Skellies *cough*).

Moreover, on the subject of "equality" & "entrants creating their own resources", I turn again to the Dusk:

If you use custom models, they must be available to every entrant and thus be in the database at the time of contest creation. That means a team member creating personalized models is impossible.
Either it be all teams or no teams, as any mix creates a disparity in the fairness for one type of entrant over the other.
I refuse to make such a simple contest a team-only contest.

As much as I love the idea of talented modders/modelers creating resources for their races, I can't help but submit that that is an incredibly unfair advantage, compared to losers schmoes entrants like me, who, fecund with ideas but bereft of talent, must rely on my wits or the goods of others to compete.

~

Thoughts?

 

[GhostThruster]

As much as I'd love to be free to make "my" mini-race while everyone else does their 'preferred' full-race... I'd be a hypocrite. Thing is, I have been campaigning in several contests for Parameters to be set; for the Contest Design to include certain bounds & limits on how the entrants do things, so as to ensure equality. The Hero Contests (with everything from melee-style to AoS-style heroes) are a great example, but so are/would be this Techtree Contest, with full/partial/mini-style Factions.

I agree that Balance can be achieved (almost) irregardless of Faction size (i.e. full vs. partial vs. mini), but Balance isn't the only important thing; Equality is as well. If I were to win with a Mini-race, it would reflect poorly on others (i.e. "did less work, still got the better prize"). Almost akin to cheating. For consistency in judging/voting/determining, there must be some ground rules, standards & parameters that define the contest and impute accountability upon it's contestants.

you do realize that the decision to create a mini-race has its own risks that balance itself against its potential benefits. what i'm saying is a good mini-race entry requires as much input/effort as a good full-race entry, albeit in different areas. eg) while it's easier & quicker to complete a mini-race & find suitable assets, it's much harder & strenuous to introduce innovative mechanics while maintaining balance.

this gives an unfair advantage to those who choose races with better coverage

it would be unfair if resourcefulness wasn't a legitimate and relevant skill in regards to techtree contests. a techtree designer must accommodate to his available resources.
furthermore, having no imports is forced equality. it restricts everyone's choices while still allowing the central 'problem' (being a 'problem' only if you consider resourcefulness to not be a relevant skill) to persist; certain races/themes have more abundant sources of assets than others. case in point, compare the number of night elf models to draenei models within wc3.

edit: forgot to mention that we already had the 'no imports' theme chosen before. and, at least for me, it was a pretty shitty contest to be involved in.

As much as I love the idea of talented modders/modelers creating resources for their races, I can't help but submit that that is an incredibly unfair advantage, compared to losers schmoes entrants like me, who, fecund with ideas but bereft of talent, must rely on my wits or the goods of others to compete.

not really, historically at least. check out the innovation comp in particular. dio's 'cabal' race had some legit-ass models n shit but the best he got out if it is a high 'presentation' (or whatever. yes i judged, no i dont have perfect memory) rating. 67chrome's drow also looked insanely good, but it wudn't have saved his race if the gameplay criteria was stupidly given emphasis on (meaning entrants were rewarded for flashy gimmicks but not for how well-balanced said gimmicks were).

you will never lose to an entrant with sexy tailor-made models but a poor race, even if all you have are ideas (... and the several thousand assets available on this website).

 

[rulerofiron99]

As much as I love the idea of talented modders/modelers creating resources for their races, I can't help but submit that that is an incredibly unfair advantage, compared to losers schmoes entrants like me, who, fecund with ideas but bereft of talent, must rely on my wits or the goods of others to compete.

I think any level of "resourcefulness" should be allowed.

Remember, a model or icon is just as much a resource as a trigger system. If we restrict model usage to only the models in the database, for the sake of fairness we'd have to do the same with trigger systems, because coding is another skill that not everyone has. Making a race without being allowed to code my own spells and systems would be incredibly boring.

The argument of competitiveness also came up in the MMC thread a few weeks ago. Here's my personal ranking of what's important in a contest:

1. Having fun
2. The community acquiring quality resources
3. Bragging rights aka winning/competing

If another contestant has a skill that I don't, e.g. model making, that affects my chance of 3. Winning. But 1. and 2. remain unaffected. I'll still be having fun, and the community will get some nice resources. It's nice to win, but I think we should prioritise having fun.

 

[Kingz]

Ok... That's not really what I was saying (although if something worked then, it stands to reason it could work again now; if it ain't broke, don't fix it). But the people at Wc3C are no dummies/slackers; if there was a big glaring issue with Mini-Races (esp. something essential like 'balance'), I'm just trying to figure out how 40+ people missed it. :<

It's a different community, not in a bad way, just different. By that logic if something is popular in one country it should be popular in every other country.
That is my opinion on the matter, lets not make a big discussion over it.

Lol. That's one way to do it.

I am again gonna have to argue it isn't. A footman is balanced against another footman because the winner will be Footman A in 50% of the cases and Footman B in other 50% coming down to which footman started his animation first.

You can disagree with me, it is your right, however for a mini race to be balanced with other races you have to make sure power spikes happen at around the same time as do other races. This will inevitably come to pseudo tiers gated by unit research and/or buildings.

Picture this scenario:
You have 10-12 melee units and 5-6 range units of your T1. To compete with enemies you have to research. Now lets say there are 2 researches which work as a pseudo tiers unlocking your unit strength to battle vs higher tier enemies. We face a problem because of the way a research works, once it completes you will experience a HUGE power spike compared to the enemy who just upgraded to T2 because your units are affected instantly. This power spike would fluctuate way too much depending on how many units you had already built before the research (aka pseudo tier).

This means in order to balance the race one would have to do some math and calculate the average number of units built before research and balance the unit upgrades with that in mind to prevent big fluctuations in power spikes.

 

[Retera]

Hey guys, I just threw out some votes onto this. It's a bit late, so hopefully I won't second-guess myself later, but here were my thoughts:

~Theme~

I voted Biome. Looked like it was up to Biome vs Custom Resource, both of which sounded really cool, and I almost was going to vote Custom Resource and tie it up. But, alas, the last time I tried to implement a custom resource system -- the Freezing Legion's Ice Mining in Heaven's Fall -- I was struck by the lack of UI customization inherent in the wc3 engine -- that custom resource amounts have to be stored in a leaderboard or multiboard, or overwrite an existing resource. So, because it seems like it would run better given game engine constraints, Biome-based techtrees would probably come out more awesome in the end.

~Size~
I picked full, just because that's how I think. Might be able to recycle a sweet race (if I get the time to compete) to add it to Heaven's Fall if it's really good!

~Level of Imports~
Gotta say, after making the S.E.N.T.I.N.E.L. in roughly only a single day, including all of their custom art assets, I just had to vote Unlimited because (while I truly understand and respect the good points made by others) making a functioning custom race in a single day filled with funny and entertaining new character models is really a fun and rewarding thing to do, and it seems like allowing that option again would be cool.

Models made for a custom techtree contest entry!

 

[Kingz]

Biome seems to be the leading theme, i hope a nice Biome (or Biome set) is chosen.

Also i am glad to see Full Race prevailing :>

 

[Eagle XI]

Seeing assymetrically balanced against each other factions once in a while instead limiting creativity over enforcing the already present and working formulars could be actually interesting.

 

[Kingz]

Seeing as this closes in 4 days, is it safe to presume contest will also start soon after?

Also we will probably need judges

 

[VeljkoM]

Was under impression that we will then have poll to decide which biome(s). Though I have some feeling contest will start later then we expect.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Seeing assymetrically balanced against each other factions once in a while instead limiting creativity over enforcing the already present and working formulars could be actually interesting.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand this... at all.

Seeing as this closes in 4 days, is it safe to presume contest will also start soon after?

Also we will probably need judges

Aw crud, I totally forgot about that... After my posting frenzy last week, I determined to spend some time away, but still had a few things to post/respond to from our discussion. But apparently the Poll is ending... Completely forgot.

Anyway, since the Poll results are clear (*sigh*) we don't really actually need to wait for it to be finished (or at least, I'm not going to hold out for "one more voter to vote with me", kinda thing I can accept defeat for now. ). It appears the Theme will be Biome with the Contest Constraints of Unlimited Imports and Full-Race.

I would like to draft up a "contest starter page" with all the rules carefully delineated (especially the Contest Conditions & Parameters & stuff). In the mean-time, the Poll did not clear up:
A) Whether we should allow users to create their own resources (i.e. as Retera, 67Chrome, and others have done)
B) Whether Biome Theme means "any Race in 1 Biome" or "everyone pick a (different) Biome"
B.2) If the first, "What Biome"?

For the record, I would argue:
A) Probably not (as much as I love new resources for the community, this contest is really testing our ingenuity & design-ability, so modeling is that extra 'kick' and is somewhat outside the purview of this contest)
B) I prefer the former ("any Race in 1 Biome"), and love the idea of "Forest", though I could be persuaded elsewise.

 

[Kingz]

A) Whether we should allow users to create their own resources (i.e. as Retera, 67Chrome, and others have done)
B) Whether Biome Theme means "any Race in 1 Biome" or "everyone pick a (different) Biome"
B.2) If the first, "What Biome"?

For the record, I would argue:
A) Probably not (as much as I love new resources for the community, this contest is really testing our ingenuity & design-ability, so modeling is that extra 'kick' and is somewhat outside the purview of this contest)
B) I prefer the former ("any Race in 1 Biome"), and love the idea of "Forest", though I could be persuaded elsewise.

I think we shouldn't put such constraints. Eveyone has their forte, if someone wants to make new models/textures from scratch for their custom race i only see it as a bonus. Since if we limit their creativity then people like me who have no such talent but are more skilled in scripting will have the upper edge. I think the playing field should be even for all, all talents should be equal.

I would prefer that if a poll was to happen for it to be a quick one (concerning Biome), as for the 1 biome thing, id like to see the Jungle or Forest or Desert.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Yes please, define the exact topic of "Biome" and I will create the contest after the poll ends (with a possible delay of <= 2 days).

 

[Kyrbi0]

I think we shouldn't put such constraints. Eveyone has their forte, if someone wants to make new models/textures from scratch for their custom race i only see it as a bonus. Since if we limit their creativity then people like me who have no such talent but are more skilled in scripting will have the upper edge. I think the playing field should be even for all, all talents should be equal.

You make a point that RulerOfIron99 made a bit ago, that I'm still trying to gather my thoughts & write in response to. However, just quickly:

I see the argument that "all skills are valid"; -Grendel may be great at modeling, let's say, but can he resourcefully & creatively design an entire faction (not trying to be rude to good ol' -Grendel here, of course; just an example of a great modeler )? If not, that's where I have a skill that he doesn't; so basically the contest is stacking "skill vs. skill", whatever that skill may be, because we all have a Skill & so we are 'equal'.

I put 'equal' in quotes, though, because unfortunately that's just proven to not be the case. Rather, we are all 'equal' in that we each have a skill (some more than others), but those Skills are not themselves equal. It has been my experience, for example, that people Vote with their eyes rather than their brains, sometimes. Too often "cool grafix" and "awexome modlz" garner all the attention, when "useful spells" or "efficient coding" or "resourcefulness" or "creativity in design" go un-noticed.

"Equality", to me, harks back to science & it's intentions; you create an experiment to test 1 thing (the variable), and have to standardize all other variables (-> constants). In a contest like this, the question is; What is the variable? What are we "testing" or "comparing" in this contest? Whatever it is, make that the point of the contest & 'standardize' everything else.

I would argue that the "variable", the "thing we're testing" is "Faction Design", characterized by "resourcefulness", "creativity", "good ideas", "good implementation", etc. Everything else should be 'standardized', if we're looking for equality & fairness.

I would prefer that if a poll was to happen for it to be a quick one (concerning Biome), as for the 1 biome thing, id like to see the Jungle or Forest or Desert.

Meh, see below. Also, would you mind ranking those in order of preference (i.e. #1,2,3 choice), because otherwise it's just a 'multi-vote' that won't help us narrow it down.

And do you prefer 1-biome or all-biomes?

Yes please, define the exact topic of "Biome" and I will create the contest after the poll ends (with a possible delay of <= 2 days).

Absolutely. Personally, I don't think we need a whole separate Poll, though we can if people want. Rather, I'd just encourage everyone to post here with a "vote" like me & Kingz did.

Also, don't worry about waiting for the Poll to end. : )

 

[Kingz]

People are drawn to nice things, as always.
It holds true for all contests, spells/techtree/hero/icon/model/skin and even maps that eyecandy will draw in a lot of votes on the poll.

Since poll is gonna be a minority of the score and eyecandy is also but a fraction of a judge score it allows for users to gain up on other fields.

Yes, different skills arent equal but it would be dumb to limit creativity still imo. Its not like someone will make a dozen of HQ models.
Also id say that judges might even appreciate smart use of WC3 resources more as in creativity.

On the subject of biomes, i cant tell really. A single biome might be too constraining.

If i had to rank those 3 i mentioned id rank them:
#1 Jungle
#2 Desert
#3 Forest

 

[VeljkoM]

What about using one of the Warcraft continents as Biome selection pool? Instead of just 1 biome or unlimited selection we get Kalimdor which gives you limited choice? So Kalimdor equals = Forest (Ashenvale), Corrupt (Feelwood), Jungle (Ungoro, Ferelas), Desert (Barrens or Tannaris), Snow (Winterspring).

Or if it is just 1 biome i vote desert#1 or forest#2 . I suspect forest will win as it is less limited than desert.

Oh and I don't think we should not allow people to make their resource if they want. Yeah they get model/texture advantage but looks shouldn't be that important factor when judging a race. Its the gameplay and balance I would place far more important role. I am sorry but cosmetic imports like Models, Icons, Skins aren't the key factor in this contest. Oh and don't get wrong idea I am not saying they aren't important but they are less important then other factors.

Oh and for Poll we really should count votes that have comments as explanation for vote to avoid popularity and pretty race votes. Or any of the suggestions Kyrib0 has been proposing for years.

 

[Bannar]

Oh, no. Custom resource can not lose

 

[Kingz]

It still doesn't mean your race can't use a custom resource.