Tech Tree

[Bloody_Turds]

This 'Project' is basically a rework of starcraft/starcraft 2 tech tree, incorporating the best of both worlds, a swell as new/replaced units/upgrades to better fill the needed roles. The aim is to produce a fun, dynamic, balanced; races and relationship; between the 3 races, while adding some interesting new game mechanics (something i think sc2 for the most part failed to do, in attempts to 'play it safe by sticking to closely to its predecessor )

at its current phase, it is in the CONCEPTUAL STAGE this means that everything posted is majorly open to suggestion/feedback and nothing as-of yet has been made, or is guaranteed to be made, but if i can get alot of good ideas, this has alot of potential.

Percieved Problems:
starcraft(1&2) favor the large army, to much (the person with 100 marines, can EASILY take out the person with 4 groups of 25 marines spread out, into 4 platoons
High ground seems to situational (its either really advantageous, or not at all, if you got air)
alot of 'senseless' macro that waste time that could be better spent (queens, mule, chrono mostly) (dont say they add much needed micro, because there is ALWAYS something you could be doing...

Game Mechanics

Weapon System

Minor Projectiles (marines, hydralisk ect)
- Evasion Base: the standard evasion of a unit, applied while moving or standing still (smaller units like zerglings would have a base evasion of 25%)
- Evasion Multiplyer: A factor of the 'Evasion Base', multiplied by the movement speed. Only applys while moving (a unit with slow movement would have a multiplyer of 1.2, while a fast moving would have a multiplyer of 2)
- Cliff Miss: units on low ground attacking high ground would have an aditional 10% chance to miss on attack
- High Ground: Units on high ground recieve a 10% attack range bonus (5% more for each additional cliff tall)
- Attack Sight: when this unit attacks, it becomes visible, to its attacker, for 1 second (allowing you to see units on cliffs to attack back)

Artillery (tanks, ect)
- Projected position: the location, a moving target, is 'expected' to be, at the point of intersection with a projectile. (as always faster units, have more time to change course)
- Radius Offset: The artillery, wont hit the 'projected position' but rather, an random offset near it. It will likely be a Circle, with a radius, 20% the distance of the 'Projected position' from the position of the attacker
- Splash Damage: dmg is dealt to a radius around missle landing, After 600% of the attacking units damage is dealt, only 60% damage is dealt to the rest of the targets (60% is applied after the aoe reduction)
- High Ground: Units on high ground recieve a 10% attack range bonus (5% more for each additional cliff tall)
- Attack Sight: when this unit attacks, it becomes visible, to its attacker, for 1 second (allowing you to see units on cliffs to attack back)

Close Combat (zelots/zerglings, ect)
- (melee)Evasion Base: 'Evasion Base' reduced by 40% applied while moving or standing still (IE a zergling would have 15% melee evade, while standing still/attacking (30% while moving))
- (melee)Evasion Multiplyer: A factor of the '(melee)Evasion Base', multiplied by the movement speed. Only applys while moving (a unit with slow movement would have a multiplyer of 1.2, while a fast moving would have a multiplyer of 2)

Unit Experience

Unit Experience
- Each "Level" for a unit, will increase its life by 15%, and attack rate, by 10% and damage by 1
- Kills required per "Level" will be based on the type of unit that gets the kill. a Zergling may gain a level every single kill, while a siege tank may be required to kill 5 just to gain a levelDepleted Resources - the first one allowed you to harvest from depleted geysers.. it might be cool if you could harvest minerals aswell, at a reduced amount

Adrinaline Mode (If needed)

while 'large' armys battle (more than 50 food worth of people), i may want to 'slow the battle down' (reduce the movement speed, and attack rates, of all units participating, by ~ 30%) Why? so you can spend more time battling of-course , and have a chance to micro better

UI Concept

Note: The UI isnt set in stone, however just about everything i feel should be shown for a unit is. The red/green gun icons far left are buffs.
the ? icon gives more info such as unit bio, and strategy.
not all units will have a Shield/power field, its just there to show where it would be located on protoss, same goes with regeneration, and energy.
And more info would be revealed by scrolling over the weapon/armor icons, like if its splash, or any other effects/weaknesses/strengths, as well as missle speed.
The Spedometer Icon Likely wont be added for a while, if at all, because when i add it i want it to atleast have 4 speeds (not moving, slow, medium, full) that it points to. (also toss/zerg would have a different icon

Races:

Zerg

Unit/Building Functions/Roles

Larvae - production
Overlord - food, air transport, Intel/Anti Invisible
drone - worker
Egg - temp form
1
zergling - Cannon Fodder, Rush, Scout, Outnumber (good vs strong units with single target attacks)
1.5
hydralisk - AA, ranged, balanced force
spore - Defensive AA
Spine - Defensive ground
Queen - Supportive Caster, healing
Digestion Mound - Healing
2
Creeper - stalling/creep expanders
Mutulisk - Anti-Air, Harrassment
spitter - anti mass ground
Nydus Wyrm - Transportation
Nest - Mass Production
Scourgling - Siege, anti(air that doesnt hit air)
2.5
Lurker - defensive, suprise
Swarmer - Defensive, anti-harrass
3
Corrupter - AA, flying (air splash), no ground
Guardian - AG, flying offensive, siege
Ultralisk - offensive, Defensive
Infestor - Defensive caster, stealth transport

Zerg Tech Tree

Units Concepts/Balance:

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Larvae

Larvae (T0)
Descrip: The most basic strain of zerg, able to morph into other forms. (no change, except conciderably weaker and higher priority target)

HP 10
Armor 0
Base Evasion 15%
Spawnrate: same? maybe
SpawnLimit: hatchery 3, Lair 4, Hive 5, Nest 3

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Egg

Egg (T0)
Descrip: an egg, is something currently morphing

HP: 80
Armor: 5
Base Evasion 10%

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Drone

Drone (T0)
Descrip: Basic Worker, can now glide down cliffs

Evasion Base 18%
Movement Speed: slightly faster (to make up for the lack of creep speed bonus) (Evas mult: 1.5)
Abilitys(non researchable):
- Glide - lets you glide down cliffs

Upgrades:
Generic Ground Damage
Generic Ground armor
Generic Burrow (fast)

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Overlord

Overlord (T0)
Descrip:Flying unit, capable of controlling the brood (food). also adept at scouting and transportation

Abilitys (non researchable):
- Transportation (4 spots at a time)

Upgrades:
Generic Air armor
--
Overlord Movement speed (@lair)
Optical Sensors: increases sight range, and allows for detecton of invisible (@lair)
Neural Parasite: grants vision of target enemy(30 sec cooldown) (@hive)

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Zergling

ZERGLING (T1)
Descrip: Fast and cheap, warrior, great at absorbing alot of damage, and scouting

Hp 30
Dmg 5 +1(.7)
Armor 0+1
Base Evasion 25%
Movement Speed: Fast (evasion multiplyer 1.8, 2 after movespeed upgrade)
Price: 3 for 90 gold, and 1 food

Upgrades:
Generic melee damage
Generic ground armor
Generic Burrow (Very Fast)
--
Attackspeed+30% (req hive)
Movespeed Upgrade
Glide (req lair) - increases movement speed, and allows the zerglings to jump over small non-moving units, and down 1 tiered cliffs..

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Hydralisk

HYDRALISK (t 1.5)
Descrip: Strong ranged unit, good against Air and ground alike.

Hp 70 (10 less than it currently is)

Dmg 10+1 (double attack(1.2))
Armor 1+1
Base Evasion 15%
Movement Speed: Fast (evasion multiplyer 1.5, 1.6 after upgrade)
Price: 100 minerals 25 gas, 1 food (25 gas, and 1 food less than its current price)


Upgrades
Generic ranged dmg
Generic ground armor
Generic Burrow (normal)
--
Toxic Spines - deals bonus damage to biological
***** Groves - increases Movement speed, and allows for movement while burrowed (at 50% the new speed)
Attack range - gives bonus to attack range

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Spine

Spine(T1.5)
Descrip: Ground-only ranged unit, that is attached to a colony, can have 3 spine, or spores attached to a single colony

HP: adds 100 to its colony, which 'shares' life with it (colony starts with 250 life)
Damage: 20 (average)
Abilitys:
- Independent Target: it has its own target, and is limited by its specific distance from the target (not the colonys)

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Spore

Spore(T1.5)
Descrip: Air-only ranged unit, that is attached to a colony, can have 3 spine, or spores attached to a single colony

HP: adds 100 to its colony, which 'shares' life with it (colony starts with 250 life)
Damage: 25 (average)
Abilitys:
- Independent Target: it has its own target, and is limited by its specific distance from the target (not the colonys)

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Queen

QUEEN (T1.5) (requires lair, limit 1 per lair, or hive)
Descrip: Im not sure if im going to keep Restore/Transfusion on her, as that kinda leans more twards bringing your queen with you for the battle. As it currently is, you are choosing between missing a fertalize (to bolster your numbers quicker, and hormones (by bringing your queen with you to battle) forcing the player to choose offensive, or income

Hp 280
Dmg 15 (2 hits, ground normal), 35 (1 target. Air, normal)
Armor 1+1
Base evasion 15%
Movement speed: normal (evasion multiplyer 1.6)
Price:240 minerals, 2 food

Abilitys:
- FERTALIZE (increase the larvae of a target hatchery/lair/hive by 40%, for 90 seconds. Larvae amounts still cant pass that buildings maximum larvae count) (50 energy)
- Spawn Creeper: Drops a creeper (25 energy), if dropped off creep creates a creep tumor that starts generating creep from that point (same thing happens when creeper steps off creep)
- HORMONES - increase the attack rate, and movement speed of nearby units by 10% (yes this includes workers, and MAYBE there harvest rate)
- Discharge: drops a goop ball, which greatly slows any enemy who steps on it. Last 120 seconds. (50 energy)


Upgrades:
General ranged dmg
General melee dmg
General ground armor
General Burrow (Slow)

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Creeper

Creeper (T2)
Descrip: slow unit, whos body is composed primarily of creep. when it sets foot on un-infested ground, it morphs into a creep tumor, over 4 seconds, then begins producing creep. Note; creep tumors can be built on now

HP: 80
DMG: 6 (1.5)
Armor: 0
Base evasion 15%
Movement Speed: Slow (Evasion Multiplyer 1.4)

Abilitys:
- Tumify: The creeper instantly turns into a creep generating tumor, when it sets foot on un-infested terrain

Upgrades:
None

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Mutulisk

Mutulisk (T2)
Descrip:All-purpose flying unit with bouncing attacks, and quick speed
- default 2 bounces, upgrade for a 3rd, and another to increase evasion and accelleration


DMG:9 (1.5)(bounces 2 times, each bounce attacks deal: 9+1, 7+1, 6+1; for first, second and third bounce respectivly)
Accelleration: 2
Base Evasion:20%
Movement Speed: Fast (Evas Multiplyer 1.8)

Upgrades:
Generic Air damage
Generic Air Armor
--
Muscular Wings: Increases the mutulisk accelleration, allowing it to more easily dodge projectiles. (+2 accelleration, +7% Base evasion)
Enhanced Wurms: Increases the times the Glave Wurm bounces by 1.

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Spitter

Spitter (t2)
Descrip: anti-mass anti-bio, great at decimating clusters of marines, or other organic ground units. Spits Acidic Disease balls, that burn, then infect organic units with deadly bacteria specifically designed to kill the host, through damageing the pain center of the brain, essentially causing so much pain the victim has a heart attack

Hp 140

Dmg 8+1 (normal)(Splash, 150 wc3 aoe full, and 180@65%, 230@50%)
Armor 2+1
Base Evasion 10%
Movement Speed: Slow-average (evasion multiplyer 1.3)
Price: 200 minerals 100-150 gas, 3 food

Upgrades:
Generic ground armor
Generic ranged damage
burrow
--
MoreHp: adds to their hp, as their less range than hlisk, they prolly need it
Corrosion: Each attack reduces the armor of attacked units by 1 (for 10 seconds) (stackable, but wont reduce below 0)

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Nidus Wurm

Nidus Wurm (t2)
Description: Can break out of the ground (if it has creep, and is currently visible)

Hp: 400
Armor: 2
Build time: 4 seconds

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Scourgling

Scourgling (T2)
Descrip: Harrassment/Anti-Air, flying unit, who latches to a target, then explodes, causing damage to the imidiate area. Excelent at taking out workers, buildings, and dropships

Hp 25
Damage 80+5 (150 wc3, aoe, @ 50% splash dmg, 180@35%) Suicide on attack
Armor 0+1
base evasion: 20%
Movement speed: average (evasion mult 1.5)
Cost: 60 Minerals, 100 gas 1 food for 2
Build Mode: @ Digestion Pit, consecutive buildable(up-to 3 at a time), 20 second build time

Abilitys:
- attaches to target, then explodes after 3 seconds, dealing high damage, to a limited area

Upgrades
Generic Air Armor
Generic Air damage

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Lurker

Lurker (T2.5)
Descrip: Defensive unit, who burrows, and attacks from underground.

Hitpoints: 120~

Damage: 18+1 (up to 4 targets) (3~ secs per attack)
Armor 1+1
Base evasion 10%
movement speed: slow (evasion multiplyer 1.3)
Cost: 250 min, 150 gas 3 food
Build Mode: @ Lurking ground, consecutive buildable(up-to 1 at a time)

Abilitys:
- Burrow: burrows underground so it can attack, (burrow takes 3 seconds)
- Attack Underground: the lurker attacks 4 seperate targets underground
(?)- SinkHole: targets a mechanical unit or location, immobilizing and dealing upto 80 damage to all mechanical units in the area for 4 seconds (channeling)

Upgrades:
Generic ranged damage
Generic ground armor
--
Range upgrade: increases the lurkers range by 2
Enhanced legs: increases the lurkers movement speed, and reduces the time it takes to burrow by 40%

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Swarmer

Swarmer
Descrip: light flying unit, who 'protects' the hive

HP: N/A
Damage: 6+1
Movement speed: average
Cost: 25 Minerals 0 food
Duration 70 seconds, 70 second cooldown

Abilitys:
- Gourge: 40% damage done to organic units, is given to

Upgrades:
Generic melee damage

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Guardian

Guardian (t3)
Descrip: Long ranged flying with excelent sieging skills, deals bonus damage to structures, and mechanical units.

Hitpoints: 160
Dmg: 30+5 (very-slow)(900~ wc3 range)
Armor 1+1
Evasion Base: 10%
Movment speed: slow (evasion multiplyer 1.3)
Cost: 200 min, 150 Gas, 4 food, 60 seconds

Abilitys:
- Contaminate: Mechanical units/structures hit by this target cant, attack/build/move for 5 seconds. Buildings also take 30 bonus damage.

Upgrades:
Generic Air damage
Generic Air armor
--
Attack range bonus(+300)

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Corrupter

Corrupter (t3)
Description: Anti-Air flying unit with melee range. Latches to a target unit, causing damage, Once latched, the movement of the corrupter is entirely dependant on the unit it is attached to.

Hitpoints 220
Dmg: 10+1 (melee) (fast)
Movement speed: fast
Cost: 150 Minerals 100 Gas, 2 food, 45 seconds


Abilitys:
- Clamp: attaches itself to its attack-target, once attached, the corrupter no-longer has control of where it moves.. but is forced to go where the attached target moves.
- Spore Cloud: releases a spore cloud around the corrupter, this causes 15 damage a second, to all enemy air units in the cloud (cloud last 12 seconds, and cloud follows the corrupter, 45 second cooldown, spore damage doesnt stack with multiple corrupters)

Upgrades:
Generic Air damage
Generic Air armor

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Ultralisk

ULTRALISK (T3)
Descrip: Powerful Behemoth, capable of walking over minor units and obsticles (maybe even up walls

HP 700 (was 600) (also regens 3 hps)
Dmg 25+2 (same as it currently is, and it will deal splash the same aswell) (no longer deals 'extra' building dmg)
Armor 2+1 (was 1+1)
Base Evasion 10%
Movement speed: normal (evasion multiplyer 1.7)
Price:
300 minerals 150 gas 6 food (was 200 gas)
Abilitys(non researchable):
- Step-Over(small/medium units, but only when there not 'moving')
- Cliff Climb: climb up/down 1 level cliffs
- Headbutt: has a 25% chance to slam the ultralisk thick skull on a target dealing 150 bonus damage to the target, and 25 damage to itself. will only work on units denoted as mechanical, large, or structure, and only if the units current health is greater than 100.
- Kaiser Blades: this unit deals splash damage with each non-headbutt attack. (smaller area than the current blades, and for about 6 damage per attack, 9 after upgrade)

Upgrades:
Gerneral melee dmg
Gerneral ground armor
---
Armored Carpace +2
Blades: increases the cleave damage by 50%
Enhanced Legs: faster movement speed

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Infestor

Infestor (T3)
Descrip: Spellcaster and transport, great at harrassing enemy players.

Hp (110)

Armor 1+1
base evasion 15%
Movement speed: average (fast while burrow/moving)
Price: 100 gold, 150 minerals 2 food

Abilitys:
- Burrow (deep): the infestor can move while burrowed, go under structures, and takes 80% less damage.Note: it takes 3-4 seconds to burrow, and 2-3 to unburrow
- Infect: Infects a small-biological(scvs included) unit with a parasite, after 5 seconds the target is destroyed, and 3 parasites emerge, and attempt to infect other biological units, parasite has 10 hitpoints, and last 90 seconds outside of a host.
- Transport: carries upto 20 troops, can still move while burrowed..
Upgrades:
Melee dmg
Ground armor
--
Infestor HP bonus
Dark Swarm: Unleashes a horde of Insectoids that act as cover, which increases the chance that ranged attacks targeting units inside the cloud will miss by 30% (even structures).

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Building Concepts

Hatchery

Hatchery(T0)
Descrip; Unlike in sc2, hatchery wont be able to make queen, not much else will likely be changed... as such this is the end..

Evolution Chambers

Evolution Chambers (T0.5)
Descrip; same function as in previous game, although a few upgrades may differ

Upgrades:
Melee - upgrades 'melee' damage, anything that doesnt leave the attackers body (drone, zerglings, creeper, Spine, Swarmer, Ultralisk, Lurker)

Projectiles - Upgrades ranged damage (Hydralisk, Spore, Spitter, Queen, Infestor

Carpace - Increases armor of ground units.(drone,zergling,hydralisk, queen, spitter, lurker, Ultralisk, Infestor

Spawning Pool

Spawning Pool (T0.5)
Descrip; no change besides upgrades..., and maybe the model

Upgrades:
Attackspeed+30% (req hive) (zerglings)
Mutate Wings: Give lings wings, allowing them to glide down cliffs, as well as move 25% faster (lings)

Colony

Creep Colony (T.5)
Descrip; Defensive structure similar to the creep colony it does grow creep, it also can create 3 Spore or spines to help defend itself.

Abilitys:
Creep Expand; expands creep, about 6 squares in all directions from the building.
Spore/Spine Purchase: attaches a spine/spore to itself, at the cost of 50 gold, this attachment adds 100 hitpoints to the colony

Hydralisk Den

Hydralisk Den (T1)
Descrip: no real changes..

Upgrades:
Toxic Spines - deals bonus damage to biological
Spiny Groves - increases Movement speed, and allows for movement while burrowed (at 50% the new speed)
Attack range - gives bonus to attack range

Lair

Lair(T1)
Descrip: main change will be Lair can make 1 queen (per lair/hive you own) and can support 4 larvae at a time, and spawns them slightly, if at all faster

Upgrades:
Burrow
Overlord Movement speed
Optical Sensors: increases sight range, and allows for detecton of invisible

Spire

Spire (t1.5)
Descrip; no change... except upgrades

Upgrades:
Air Damage
Air Armor
Muscular Wings: Increases the acceleration of mutulisk , allowing them to more easily dodge projectiles. (+2 accelleration, +7% Base evasion)
Enhanced Wurms: Increases the times the Glave Wurm bounces by 1.

Nydus Canal

Nydus Canal (T1.5)
Descrip: unlike in sc2, id like to make them use the canals similar to waygates (automatically, going in closest, and out closest to the target location), Requires creep and sight to place a nydus wyrm

Digestion Mound

Digestion Mound (T1.5)
Descripprobably based on spawning pool(or sunken colony if available), basically building can digest units for hp, aswell as building scourglings, and being a tech requirement for spitter

Abilities:
- Digestion: Sends tenticles (automatically) through the creep, which then pop out grabing any corpses within 1500 area. (maybe targetable on living allied units also, but not auto) the corpses will then be dragged back underground, and to the pit, where they are converted into energy
- Transfusion: targets a nearby organic ground unit. healing it over a short time(50HPS). (every 10 hitpoints cost 1 energy)

Upgrades:
MoreHp: adds to their hp, as their less range than hlisk, they prolly need it
Corrosion: Each attack reduces the armor of attacked units by 1 (for 10 seconds) (stackable, but wont reduce below 0)

Lurking Grounds

Lurking Grounds (T2)
Descrip: lurkers are purchased here, and are nolonger made from hydralisk.

Upgrades:
Range upgrade: increases the lurkers range by 2
Enhanced legs: increases the lurkers movement speed, and reduces the time it takes to burrow by 40%

Nest

Net (T2)
Descrip: basically all this does is produce larvae for unit production...

Hive

Hive(T2)
Descrip: Can now unleash swarmers to protect itself (think wc3's locust swarm, likely without lifesteal)

Upgrades:
Neural Parasite: grants vision of target enemy.(30 sec cooldown)

Greater Spire

Greater Spire (T2.5)
Descrip: other than a few upgrades no changes from sc1/2

Upgrades:
Air damage
Air armor
Muscular Wings: Increases the mutulisk accelleration, allowing it to more easily dodge projectiles. (+2 accelleration, +7% Base evasion)
Enhanced Wurms: Increases the times the Glave Wurm bounces by 1.
Attack range bonus(Guardians)
Hitpoint bonus (corrupters)

Ultralisk Caverns

Ultralisk Caverns(T2.5)
Descrip: Ultralisk are now trained at the caverns.., making it harder to get a batch of ultralisk, without building multiple caverns.., upgrades and ultralisk build time likely decreased to compensate

Upgrades:
Armored Carpace +2
Blades: increases the cleave radius by 50%
Enhanced Legs: faster movement speed (increasing ram damage to up-to 600)

Infestation Pit

Infestation Pit (T2.5)
Descrip: Research for infestor

Upgrades:
Infestors HP Bonus
Dark Swarm: Unleashes a horde of Insectoids that act as cover, which increases the chance that ranged attacks targeting units inside the cloud will miss by 30% (even structures)

Misc(ideas/concepts):

Creep:
- Slows non-zerg INSTEAD of speeding up zerg
- Damages non-Zerg Buildings
- Heals Zerg Units/structures (1-2 HPS)
- Automatically expands (automatically creates its own creep tumors at the edge of current creep. tumors are now visible, and can be built directly on, and wont hinder movement.

Un-Burrow: Auto-castable - causes the burrowed to pop up 1.5 seconds, after an enemy comes within 450 wc3 aoe of it.. when ordered to unborrow, all nearby burrowed units with autocast enabled would also unburrow
Burrow wouldnt be autocastable, and the auto-cast option would reset to no-autocast every time a unit is unburrowed

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Terran

Roles

SCV
Firebat (anti-organic/anti-small)
marine (general)
ghost (anti organic/strong/recon)
Reaper(gernade thrower) (anti-mech, can fly short distances with upgrade)
Medic (support)

hellion W machinegun(Harrass, Speedy support)
Siege tank (defensive/Siege)
Goliath Anti-Air, anti mech
Melee armored mech (siege, and Tanking)

Viking air only: Anti-air, anti mech (missles can only target mechanical, non-structures)
Mule- Dropship, speedy resources
BattleCruiser (General)
Wraith/banshee mix (anti ground, with medium air support)
SkyLab(misc)(Orbiter(flying scout))(Deploy Hovermine)

Terran Tech Tree

Units Concepts/Balance:
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Scv

SCV 2.0 (T0)
Descrip: Basic worker, likely to replace the model with something that doesnt constantly fly (maybe wheels, maybe a marine/type armored unit). New Scvs will be capable of Salvaging almost any mechanical structure (friend or foe)

Cost 75 minerals 1 food


Hp: 50
Damage 5+1 (+10 to mechanical)

Abilitys:
Harvest: 10 minerals/gas at a time (twice as long to harvest, as its more resources, but time would be saved driving to/from the resource patch)
Repair: repairs a structure, or mechanical unit for aproximately 30% the cost per hitpoint for purchase of a new one.
Salvage: salvages a targeted Mechanical unit or structure, returning 100% (minus damages) of its build cost, at a new cost of 150% of its build time.
While salvaging, the unit/structure takes damage, until it is destroyed, at which time the resources acumulated are returned to the command center. Note: that if salvage is canceled, before a unit dies, there is no cash given, and the unit remains with whatever hitpoints it has.

Upgrades:
Laser/Fire Weaponry
Light Plate Armor
Generic Vehicle Speed
--
Fusion Cutters: Decreases the time required to repair and salvage by 30%
Mechanic Boosters: Increases the movement speed by 20%

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Marine

Marine (T1)
Descrip: General Marine, likely a little less damage, with more attack speed than in sc2 (making them weaker vs armored)


Hp: 40

Abilitys:


Upgrades:
Bullet Weaponry
Infantry Armor
--
Stimpack: Increases the attack-rate, and movement speed of the marine by 100% for 20 seconds. Also permanently reduces the marines max Hitpoints by 5.
Enhanced Range: increases the marines attack range
Combat Shields: Increases marines max life by 10

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Firebat

Firebat (T 1.5)
Descrip: Like the firebats in Sc2s campaign (high hp/armor)

Hp 80
Dmg 5+1 (aoe/line dmg)
Armor 1+1
6+1 (+10 to organic)
Cost 75 Minerals 50 gas

Abilitys:
- Combust: When the firebat dies, he explodes, dealing 10 damage to all nearby units (allied to?)

Upgrades
Laser/Fire Weaponry
Infantry Armor
--
Stimpack:Increases the attack-rate, and movement speed of the Firebat by 80% for 20 seconds. Also permanently reduces the fire max Hitpoints by 5.
NeoSteel Plating(@Research center): Increases armor by 2

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Medic

Medic (T1.5)
Descrip: Basic Healer, will heal alot slower than in sc1, heals multi targets at a time, and healing stack though

Hp 50
Armor 0+1

Abilitys:
- First Aid(10 mana): Autocast, heals a unit for 20 hitpoints, over 5 seconds.
- Para-dart: stuns a single biological unit for 7 seconds. (50 mana)

Upgrades:
Infantry Armor
--
Retreat Flare: (1 time use, 150 mana): Reduces nearby enemys sight range to 0 for 5 seconds (they can still attack if your attacking them, because attackers are revealed through fog)
Restore: Heals an organic unit for 80 hitpoints(instantly), and removes any negative buffs (50 mana)

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Gun Buggy

Gun Buggy (t1.5)
Descrip: Fast vehicle, able to attack while it drives, good at harrassment or taking out melee.

HP 90
Dmg 5+1(ground only)(slightly faster than marine at attacking, and slightly less range)
Armor 0+1
Gold Cost: 100 min, 50 gas

Abilitys:
- Gun Turret: attacks while moving, if its ordered to attack a target, then ordered to move, it will maintain that as the prefered attack target if in range
- Bullet Spray: the 'intended' target doesnt necessarily get hit, but 10 'bullets' are fired at a random nearby location
Upgrades:
Light Plating
Bullet Weaponry

Vehicle Speed Bonus
--
Chemo Rounds: Reduces attacked units movement speed and attack rate by 35% for 2 seconds

_________________

Siege Tank

Siege Tank (t2)
Descrip: not much will change, siege tanks will still be primarily Defensive

Hp (maybe a little more than in sc1

Damage: Siege mode - 45 splash huge range, Tank mode-30(+10 mech/structure) med range
Armor 2+1

Abilitys:
- Turret: while in tank form it can shoot and run
- Scatter Shot: while in siege mode attacks deal aoe damage, (35 to organic, 20 to mechanical, 50 to structures)

Upgrades
Heavy Plating
Missle Weaponry
Vehicle Speed Bonus

--
Siege mode: goes siege stops movement gives more dmg/range/splash
Advanced Plating: Increases hitpoints by 40.

_________________

Wraith

Wraith (t2)
Descrip:Same as regular wraith, probably a little stronger vs ground, and weaker vs air, possibly faster

Attack rate: .45
Damage: 8+1

Abilitys:
- Reap: The first attack within a 3 second cooldown deals 50 bonus damage.
Upgrades:
Light Plating
Laser/Fire Weaponry
--
OverBurn: Temporarily Increases the wraiths Accelleration, and movement speed, at the cost of energy

_________________

Transport

Transport (t2)
Descrip: Unlike traditional dropships this one is required to land before loading/unloading, and will land automatically if unload/load is requested. It can also travel as a ground unit at which point it can load/unload freely, and has a gun turret

Abilitys:
- Load/Unload: holds 16 units (or 4 tanks)
- Land/Fly: Transforms between a ground unit and a flyer
- Dig In: Converts the dropship into a tiny fortress, that can train SCV's (after researched), return minerals, and Defend itself (with a small turret on top). Converting is free but takes 15 seconds both ways.

Upgrades:
Structure Armor (when in structure mode)
Heavy vehicle armor (when in vehicle/ship mode)
Bullet Weaponry (when in structure mode)
Vehicle Speed Bonus (when in vehicle mode)
--
Speedy Harvest: Allows the training of SCV's at the building, as well as decreasing the conversion time between modes

_________________

Goliath

Goliath (t2.5)
Descrip: Good anti-air, anti-mech support unit with Heavy Guns, and Missles for air.

Attack rate: (2, average) (2 sec vs air), Simultanius fire (both ground and air can be shot at same time)
Damage: 10+15 to mechanical, 25 Anti-Air missle

Abilitys:
- Cannon Rounds: Deals 15 extra dmg to mechanical units/structures
- Anti-Air Missle Volly: Stores up to 6 missles(gains 1 missle every 2 seconds), which are then fired automatically when air get in range dealing 25 damage, and 5 explosive damage to a small area, with a max of 20 bonus damage

Upgrades:
Bullet Weaponry
Missle Weaponry
Light Plating
Generic Vehicle Speed
--
AutoLoader: Decreases the reload time per missle by 50% (to 1 second per missle)
Enhanced Targeting System: Increases the attack range for missles, and bullets

_________________

Reaper

Reaper (t2.5)
Descrip: anti mech good at taking down structures/mechanical units. Unlike the other reapers, these ones dont develop jetpacks until later on.

Hp: 50
Dmg 8+1 (+5 vs mech, and structure)
Armor 0+1
Gold Cost: 100 min 100 gas

Abilitys:
- EMP Rounds: each attack fired, disrupts electrical signals, slowing attack rate and movement, and production, of the target (if its mechanical) by 50% for 2 seconds
Upgrades:
Missle Weaponry
Infantry Armor

--
JetPacks: Allows the reaper to fly for 15 seconds (45 second cooldown). After the time the reaper will auto-land, and if there is no nearby landing ground it will fall on whatever, and explode (or in water just sink?)

Spider Mines(3 charges): Places a mine which will home and detonate on enemys that wander to close (mines also have a 400 wc3 aoe sight range)

_________________

Viking

Viking (t2.5)
Descrip:Similar to Vikings of past, unlike their ancestors they have developed Heat Seeking weaponry

Abilitys:
- SkyJacks: drops a hover Jack that homes in on any enemy air that get to close and explodes dealing area damage)
- Motion Missles(Primary weaponry): Fires 6 missles in a fan, they then seek the nearest target(enemy air units/mechanical units (1.5 second after launch target is aquired, and if no target they go for another 1 second, and if still no target explode) and explode. (deals 40 damage, and 15 aoe dmg to a very small area)

Upgrades:
Heavy Plating
Missle Weaponry
--
OverBurn: Temporarily Increases the wraiths Accelleration, and movement speed, at the cost of energy
Rocket Thrusters: Allows the viking to fire while en-pursuite (not at targets behind him)

_________________

SkyLab

Skylab (t3)
Descrip: Similar to Science Vessle (in many many ways). Skills to decide apon: Iradiate, EMP, Defense Matrix, Flares, Nano-bot field (heals mech, and maybe even organic), Cloaking Generator (attaches a cloaking device to a target unit, which last 60 seconds (stays cloaked even when it attacks), Chemo-Daze (decreases enemy organic units within x ranges attack rate and movement speed)

Abilitys:
- Detector: See invisible..

Upgrades:
Light Plating

_________________

Ghost

Ghost (t3)
Descrip:similar to sc1...

Attack rate: (slow, 1.5 sec)
Damage: 20+5(+20) to organic

Abilitys:
- KillShot: any round that kills its target has a 25% chance to pierce hitting the next target in a line (great vs organics like lings/marines)
- Call Nuke: If ya got a nuke.. lets ya drop it.. also nukes will be more like starcraft 1, and be more destructive to buildings

Upgrades:
Bullet Weaponry
Infantry armor

EMP: Allows you to toss an(1) EMP, stunning mechanical units in an medium area for 5 seconds
Personal Cloaking Generator: allows you to cloak.. at the cost of mana
Psysonic Training: Increases mana, and mana regen

_________________

Battlecruiser

BattleCruiser (t3)
Descrip: Probably about the same as in sc2 (with a fairly rapid fire rate, and average damage)

Attack Speed (1.25 seconds X 6 lasers)
Damage: 6+1 (Mounted Lasers)
Abilitys:
- Focus Cannon: Stops the Auxillery weaponry (the minor lasers on the bottom/top that fire at everything) with a 1 second cast time, then channels a beam for up to 5 seconds, dealing 100 damage a second(to a single target, afterwhich a 1 second cooldown before the auxillery weaponry kicks back in
- Multi-fire, fires 6 lasers at a time, at upto 6 different targets, dealing about 60 damage a second

Upgrades:
Heavy Plating
Laser/Flame Weaponry

Advanced Plating: +2 armor
Warp Jump: Cross map blink with 3 second channel, and 2 second 'slow' time afterwards (cant fire during slow/channel)

_________________

Armored Mech

Armored mech (t3): Powerful Siege Walker, similar to thor in appearance, likely has a giant hammer, or heavy tank cannons, with a primary function of destroying buildings/large mech units. likely has short range.. and doubles as a damage absorber for infantry.

Abilitys:
- Terrorize: Enemy units deal 1 less damage when within a medium range of this unit
- Heavy Cannons: Deals 50 more damage to mechanical units and structures

__________________________________



Advanced Building Concepts:
_________________

________

Command Center

Command Center
Descrip: its loosing silo and scanner sweep, but i MAY add Psy disrupter to it (with req of research center, and maybe something else not sure... because its sort of less needed with the transport being able to become makeshift, it may also loose fly.. but for now ill list it

Function: Main Tech-building, resource gathering
Abilitys:
- Pack: Similar to fly.. except without the flying.. probably slightly smaller size so it can fit down ramps in packed mode.. (packed mode might be a semi truck, and then for unpack id just play birth anim again but over 20 seconds (the unpack time)
- Return Resources: lets you return stuff to this building..
- hold cargo (16): holds 16 scvs..

________

Supply Depot

Supply Depot
Descrip: probably removing ability to drop them, but perdition turret probably will keep that ability

Function: Food, Blockade

________

Refinery

Refinery

Descrip: no changes besides resource harvest amount?, and Maybe an automated refinery upgrade (so you can get gas without a nearby Drop point or workers)

Function: Harvesting Gas

Upgrades to:
Auto-Refinery?: basically a refinery.. but without the need for workers/drop

________

Barracks(and academy)

Barracks
Descrip: Infantry producing unit, if any buildings lift off, this will definently be one of the few that do.

Function: Rush, Infantry

Addon(s):
-----
Academy
Descrip: Req for quite a few units, also has researches...

Research Available:
Stimpack (Marines,Firebats,Reapers,Ghost,Medic?)
Combat Shields (Marines,Reapers?)
Retreat Flare (Medic)
Restore (medic)
JetPacks(Reapers)

________

Armory(and techlab)

Armory
Descrip: The Armory, and the engine bay have joined forces under 1 roof!, this being the case, upgrades may be a little quicker to research to counterbalance the time required.(tech lab MAY speed up research time)

Function: Tech Requirement, Upgrades

Research Available:
Explosives/missles
Bullets
Lasers/Fire
Infantry Armor
Light Shilding
Heavy Shielding
Addon(s):
-----
Tech lab:
Descrip: has a few researches of its own, as well as being required for goliaths, may also speed up Armorys research rate if attached

Research Available
building Armor
Fusion Cutters(scv)
Advanced Gears(vehicle)
Chemo Rounds?(gunbuggy),
Increased range (marines, reapers?, ghost)

________

Protoss

Note: heres what i have sofar for protoss not organized, or even all that perfected

Protoss


Pylon:
- powers structures, and adds food
- each overlaping pylons increase the construction rate of buildings and units by 25, 20, 15, 10% respectivly

Field Generator:
- recharges energy/shields (units and buildings)
- powers structures, and adds food
- reduces enemy damage in an area

warp prism:
-recalls injured troops/single troops or all units in an area
- acts as pylon (powers stuff and allows for warp in), but no food


units Roles:

probe - worker

zealot - tank, melee, rush

dragoon - AA, good vs high hp,
sentry&/Templar supportive, aa?

dark templars stealth, offensive, harrass
high templars anti-mass, support

phoenix/scout - anti-air, light ground attacks
Observer - scouting, anti-invis
Warp Prism -transport, support?

Archon - tank, anti-mass
Dark Archon - anti-mage
Twilight Archon - caster/tank
Carrier general - anti-ground
Interceptors
Reaver siege, anti-mass
scarabs
Immortal defensive, anti-power

Mothership - support




IDEAS:

colsous; walk cliffs, beam attacks?
corsar?
reavers!!
dark temp invis, and archon warp? should darks/highs be able to mix? should they yield the same archons either way?

high templar, feedback, archon warp, psy storm

warp prism (recalls troops in, and can power stuff?)

immortals hardened shields?

mothership/arbiter: recall, vortex/stasisfield mass cloaking?

observer(still invis/detect?)
blink?
void rays (currently gain dmg longer there on a target, i think maybe it should be longer they fire, with -1 dmg every 2-3 secs they havnt fired, maybe with energy cost to fire?
zlot charge?

phonix gravitron beam?

sentry,s force field, halucination, and guardian shield
Time warp: the unit retraces its steps backwards at fast speed
Glimpse: the nearest x enemy units (in a range?) are revealed (giving you there vision) for 4, seconds), this includes invisibles, and detection or views a random enemy unit on the map, maybe hurting it in the process? or Aestral Projection (creates an untargetable 'spirit' that can wander the map (channeling, and if caster dies projection does....

HyperShield: stops all damage for 5 seconds to this unit (its still attacked)
shield battery for pylons?, works on buildings?

transports: phase warp, targets a point, then moves roughly 1200 wc3 speed twards that point, after warp shields are down fully, and the ship is unable to drop for 3 seconds?, warp takes 2 seconds to cast)

Void Laser, fires a beam in 1 direction, roughly 3k wc3 distance, dealing X damage to all units in the path...?

archons would have chainlightning(bouncing and likely a bit longer range than them)? that drains shield? energy nova (archons explode on death)

Psyonic Theft; drains all the energy from units in an area.. converting it to energy for the archons

Void Portal, similar to waygates... (yes the enemy can use to) opens a portal between position of your unit, and anywhere on the map (units can go into the portal (to your unit) but not out.. so essentially its a 1way escape plan that the enemy can follow... (rift remains open 5 seconds after you stop casting..

Energize, increases the shield regen of nearby ally protoss...

 

[DungeonM]

Sigh.

 

[Fussiler1]

Sigh.

How helpful.

 

[Darkness-4ever]

How helpful.

And this was?

 

[LordDz]

The reason everything hits on attack and doesn't miss is because league games are about skill and micro/macro. Not about being lucky

 

[Fussiler1]

And this was?

Helpful, as I tried to say in sarcasm that he wasn't very helpful, hoping to encourage him to edit his post to a somewhat more productive post, explaining why he sighed.

 

[Darkness-4ever]

Is anyone else greatly disappointed in the current tech tree? I know i am extremely disappointed, almost enough to make my own melee type game...

I'm pretty sure you can do that with the editor that will be included with the actual game.

Also lets form our own tech tree here for the 3 races! Suggest units, abilitys, and tech placement, along with the ingame model/icon to be used (i dont want to import to many resource's but a couple icons, or a missle or 2 would be fine.Any units/ideas are welcomed, not looking for balance, so give your best ideas...
and im not saying anyone will actually make this.. but lets get some iders goin.

Good to know about that part.

Systems:
High Ground Miss rate - allows for more strategic use if high ground

They have that in SC2, or at the very least they had that in original SC.

Unit Experience - they got kills stored on each unit, why not reward them for their battle experience

Like it or not what your describing is very damn close to every unit being a Hero, or at the very least taking from Command & Conquer's promotion system used in Red Alert and Tiberium games, not to mention this would make certain units spammable, power-uppable, and renders the game even more one-sided to the player that wins the first battle since now his units not only survived and got a few kills, but are now stronger because of it.

All Hits miss chance - i never liked how every attack hits 100% of the time, especially with moving targets, and non-explosive weaponry, i propose that all units should have a chance to miss (possibly hitting a neighboring enemy unit if applicable)

Not all attacks hit 100% of the time, I thought thats what the above ground advantage was for, not to mention this makes it an extreme pain in the ass when your fighting burrowed & moving Zerg units, starting to wonder if your one-siding this for the Zerg, that and the Terran's Raven has an ability to completely nullify certain missile attacks.

Depleted Geysers - it was in the first one, ant i really dislike that it wasnt carried over... i thought this was progress...

Agreed.

replinishing minerals - similar to the depleted geysers, except with minerals, who should be excavatable from beneath the surface (only where mineral fields previously)

Disagree, this seems again, like Command & Conquer's Tiberium and Red Alert brands where the main resources can replenish, I prefer a definitive and inevitable end to the game and not some guy who managed to build the ultimate defense and can continue to turtle and repair because he keeps getting just enough minerals to do so.

Battle Adrinaline Mode - In my opinion the battles in sc2 are to short, if the game were to decrease speed by 30% Only during fights between more than 2-3 units (combined with the ~10% miss-rate aformentioned), there would be alot more time for micro, and it might give a little break to those with not so grand videocards, in grand battles.

I'm pretty certain there is a game speed setting and video setting for people who can't keep up and can't play Starcraft 2 in its full glory, but there is a reason battles end quickly, its because it's not meant to be like Warcraft 3, with long drawn out battles, its Starcraft with quick and/or big skirmishes with mass killing, macro is emphasized over micro in this game, not the other way around.


Units (to be continued.. by everyone... (ill update my list))

Zerg

Hatchery - Builds workers, stores minerals, spawns larvae (3 at a time default, with an upgrarade to increase this number to 4, and then 5)

Does the 1st one, don't know what you mean by "store minerals" and the spawn larvae thing is changed at the different tiers, the larvae don't increase in number but they do spawn faster at each upgrade, not necessary in my opinion.

Lair - Upgraded Hatchery, with ability to produce a single queen (per lair/hive)

It sounds like you're saying you get a free queen with each upgrade, which if you are I say big NO, if you're not saying that you should probably clarify.

Hive - upgrade Lair, now able to defend itself, via the release of swarming, flying insects. who deal extremly low damage to mechanical/robotic targets, and are imune to certain weapons (such as bullets, but not flamethrowers), and require to check back into the hive after a while in flight (similar to locust swarm, except actually killable by splash/explosive skills)

To be honest, I lol'd hard at this one, let me explain: You pretty much have the Hive turned into a Super Carrier building, with godly health and can release a ton of defensive units, now for the part that actually made me laugh, they fly and are immune to bullets but not flamethrowers, that pretty much says OK only Hellions can do fire damage, but they can't because the insects fly, Infantry could do damage but they'd get shredded and the insects are bullet immune, its pretty much saying Terran can't defeat these bugs without super units and ultimately overcome the Hive. In short not a good idea at all for melee game.

Zerglings - Tier 1 unit, spawns 2 (maybe 4, if larvae become to precious) Upgrades: attack rate upgrade @ t2 movement speed, with ability to glide over small cliffs, and down them. @ t3

Because Zerg just aren't complete unless you sneak those Zergling swarms in with the burrowed and moving Roaches and Infestors, right?

Scourge - Tier 2? flying unit Explodes on attack, can hit land AND air, I imagine a baneling with wings...(like 10 hp, and maybe an delayed explosion period (maybe it attaches itself for 1-1.5 seconds, growing about twice its size, then boom, but still deals minor damage, if killed during growth process)

Yeah, they can hit land and air? They might as well give the Sappers in warcraft 3 mechanical wings so they can fly right into the enemy buildings and self destruct, the point of the game is everything has strengths and weakness, a suicide high damage unit usually functions to be really good at damaging a certain range of targets, what you described was one that covered all ranges, big No No to that.

Queen - Tier 2, Skills: fertilize, increases spawn rate at a target hatchery/lair/hive by a % for a duration (doesnt increase the hatchery past 3,4,or 5)

Seems redundant with its ability to make the Hatchery make extra eggs.

Lay Egg: spawns 2-4 broodlings after a 20 second period. (broodlings now take dps when off of creep, making them defensive

Not a bad idea to be honest, but can't go with you on that, the Brood Lords confiscated the Broodling from the Queen, two different units sharing the same spawned unit is just not... original.

Hormone Cloud: Passive aura, that increases nearby zergs attackrate and movement speed, with the exception of workers, and other queens. (enemy also?)

Uhhh... just... no.

Infest?: turns queen into a hatchery, more quickly than building a new one, and for a reduced price (actually more if you count the queens cost), and allowing for a new queen to be produced at the lair

Lets make her able to gather minerals and gas as well, and why stop at hatcheries? Lets make the Queen the new worker unit for the Zerg.

Creep: The creep itself would be more dynamic, replinishing buildings healths, rapidly, by draining health from nearby buildings with high health. It could also slow the enemy, rather than speed zerg up. would grow on its own (slowly), possibly taking damage from explosive type attacks. (i could see a line of hellions destroying your creep, for strategic purposes) would also serve as nourishment for units on it ( units would regenerate very slowly off of it, and about 2-3 hps on it)

I just don't know about this, the creep is mainly used as a means to limit the Zerg not really to empower them. Then again might as well give the Protoss something for their psi fields made from pylons, such as disrupting mechanical unit sensors, making them miss more, coupled with the High ground miss rate and the dodging missile attack miss rates, Protoss could make Terran their bitch in no time... In short I just don't agree with the majority of your suggestions for melee game conduction in Starcraft 2, its all good for custom games, hell I'd say go make one, its your right once the game comes out, but as for having a place in making a melee game better in Starcraft 2, I just don't see that happening.

 

[Bloody_Turds]

well thanks for all the feedback, but you are misunderstanding my goal.. its not to make an 'expansion' to the current tech tree... but to make an ALTERNATE tech tree... and right now im just throwing ideas out..
the bugs wont be that strong because A) they cant live without a hive, and B) there are more explosive type attacks than hellions... some of which are tanks..

@ being biased twards zerg.. thats because i havnt posted anything for the other races XD... ill be back after school to add more to this list

EDIT: Back from class

@ starcrafts editor
Ofcourse it will be able to make an alternative melee type map....

@good to know about that part
? I plan it to be a SEPERATE project, im not asking blizzard to remake melee in the way i see fit.. and i am just GATHERING IDEAS, nothing said as of now is definently going to make it into the mod (asuming i actually go through with making it)

@high ground miss
Im also pretty sure starcraft has this, however starcraft 2s melee does not, but rather a system where you cant even see whos attacking you from a cliff, unless you have a 'tall' unit, air nearby, or a unit on that cliff...

@unit experience, it would be nothing like a hero, in the fact that heros become 10 up to 10 times stronger as they level.. this bonus would be at most 20% for a unit that survived all game, and is more of a 'bragging rights' reward than actual advantage. Yes it would favor some units, particularly high hitpoint units, however if it were a linear bonus (not a %) it would be enough to favor smaller units aswell...


@ hatchery
the ability to store minerals, means workers can carry minerals there, and it adds those minerals, to your mineral 'pool', I didnt know that lair spawns larvae faster than hatchery, good to know.. but the upgrades are still a good idea, because queens will nolonger do spawn larvae....

@lair
No you dont get a 'free queen', but rather cannot build a queen until you have a lair/hive, and are limited to 1 queen per lair/hive you own.

@hive
it would be more like warcraft 3's locust swarm, except the units would be partially vulnerable, and it wouldnt heal the hive. And i never said they would be able to hold off an army..., And marines wouldnt even try to target them, but go straight for the hive, killing them in the process (once the hive dies)

@zerglings
If you noticed i said DOWN, and over cliffs, not UP... and since my terrains would have the bases on high ground.. it wouldnt help with harrasing... but seriously they have wings, they should atleast do sumthing...

@scourge
I even said they would be vulnerable, and infact from what i suggested, they would ONLY be good for building destruction, with their low hitpoints, and casting duration, where they could easily be 1shotted to death.. (might be good to take out dropships aswell, since they dont attack, or any other unit thats air and doesnt attack ground, because they would become ground once attached to their target if it was a ground target)

@queen+fertalize
IF i decided to add this ability to the queen i would most definently remove the current spawn larvae from it...

@queen+lay egg
the buildings spawn broodlings as it is... also.. but i dont know if i would include the brudelord, with its current role....

@queen+hormone cloud
it has been said by many, that zerg need the ability to be more defensive... this would really allow the zerg to play defense... (along with the broodlings)
thus elminating the need for roaches (not saying my game would or wouldnt have them anyways)

@infest
that wouldnt actually be much of an aid, as it ends up costing you MORE cash, than if you were to buy a hatchery with a worker.. ontop of having to buy another queen...
but it would be good at building a fast expansion to get things going more quickly..

@creep
if it were ment to limit them, it wouldnt currently speed up zerg units... XD, replacing the speedbonus with a slow bonus would make more sence, and add more to that defence that zerg really lack...

I wouldnt go the road of making pylons disrupt mechanical, but i could definently see it doubleing as a shield battery.... XD


btw thanks for all the feedback, however inconstructive to my situation it actually was XD


@everything hits always, because of 'skill'
Adding a little bit of chance in general wont mess up.. if not, whoever the very best person is, should never loose a single game (aslong as he is actually the best)

the fact is, a game between 2 people of the same skill level, doesnt always bode a clear victor (even if 1 player is ever so slightly stronger), so chance will always be there... (unlike chess)

although for the most part a 10-15% missrate wont do much, except prolonge the battles a bit (untill hp is compensated for) although there may be 1-2 cases in a game, where you miss the final hit on a unit, allowing him to keep that unit, and go heal... thats the whole nature of chance... (if you focus 2-3 on that dieing person, instead of 1, you probably dont have to worry about that last hit... its called making a sacrafice, to guarantee the unit dies (the sacrafice of 2 extra hits that probably wernt needed)

 

[foo_sharp]

the fact is, a game between 2 people of the same skill level, doesnt always bode a clear victor (even if 1 player is ever so slightly stronger), so chance will always be there... (unlike chess)

although for the most part a 10-15% missrate wont do much, except prolonge the battles a bit (untill hp is compensated for) although there may be 1-2 cases in a game, where you miss the final hit on a unit, allowing him to keep that unit, and go heal... thats the whole nature of chance... (if you focus 2-3 on that dieing person, instead of 1, you probably dont have to worry about that last hit... its called making a sacrafice, to guarantee the unit dies (the sacrafice of 2 extra hits that probably wernt needed)

10-15% miss chance is quite high.
There is a very good reason that the miss chance was taken out of the game and that is to eliminate pure luck during combat.
It never is a good decision to choose luck over skill when designing a game. A by far better player can lose a game due to such systems, simply because his opponent was lucky, that's not an element you want in a competitive multiplayer game.
It is a good thing that there is no such thing as missing attacks anymore - and to pick up your comparison, StarCraft II is better of being closer to chess than to Russian Roulette.

 

[Bloody_Turds]

a far better player CANNOT loose with such a system, he could possibly loose 1-2 units, but luck goes both ways..., if you were to flip 100 coins, odds are, 40-60 of them will land on heads...
whereas were dealing with 1 coin 'flip' every single attack, meaning that odds are over a million to 1 that ull miss 5 shots in a row... ,which means that there MAY be something, like a tank that survives, because the last attack missed...
but a player who is 'far better' should mop the floor, even if this one tank happens to survive 1-2 attacks longer than it should have..

If they didnt want any random, first off, fog of war would be disabled (cause god forbide, you take a different route to your opponent than he takes to you, forever, and drastically altering the outcome of the game..

The fact of the matter is luck Is part of every game (except maybe high level chess)

and 'good' players are able to adapt to it..

its funny what kinda notion people think when they see 'luck'
Its not boiling the game down to a coin toss... (not even a lopsided coin toss)
Its not like 10% of games, you miss every attack..

@10% being high
How so? its not like any 1 particular unit would benifit from it, as all the units would be balanced accordingly with this system....
10% is somewhat high if it were a 1 sided event, meaning that only 1 team would suffer from this 10% loss rate...
Infact i think 10% is just about right, it would make you have to decide, do you need to kill that unit bad enough, to most likely waste a units attack, if so, have 2 attack, if not have 1 (asuming you can micro on this level XD, which with sc2s current speeds, its not so likely)

Oh and what makes it 'never' a good idea to choose luck over skill?, give me 1 example game that luck has nothing to do with (other than a turn-based game)

1 skill can be varried...
some people have high mental capacitys for strategy and logic, but lack the ability to quickly execute those decisions. Some people can average 10 clicks a second, but arnt doing that much strategically..
Is it really 'skill' that prevents the doorbell from ringing, distracting you, and causing you to hit the wrong key? or perhaps your mouse button sticks in... making you unable to double click (or any outdated hardware for that matter)

Luck is what makes games exciting... its the quick thinking, when something doesnt go exactly as planned, that should warant the victor, not a players ability to spam units, because he read in some manual, that these units counter this...

Oh, and guess what, skill is an immeasurable quantity, as there are far to many factors that determine it, from:

reflexes (the time it takes you to see a dot on the screen and click your mouse
Strategy the ability to map out a fictional scenario to derive an outcome (you see that dot is a nuke, most likely your strategy would be to either, move, or try and scout the ghost)
Improvisation: you were gonna EMP his troops, but looks like he killed your ghost first, what now?
Luck: he killed your ghost before you EMP'ed, because you misclicked, and he didnt.. (yes even the pros misclick now an then)
Dumb Luck: a little different, as neither you or him are at fault, but now his tank survived, because your unit happen to get 'stuck' on the corner for a little longer than usual, allowing him that extra shot..
Macro: the ability to quickly do things your familiar with
Guts: the decision to take a chance, rather than 'play it safe'
Math: ability to calculate on the fly, an aproximation of how much your dealing to them, compared to what they are dealing to you

And a couple other things, im a little to tired to think of XD

 

[LordDz]

I think you should play Company of Heroes instead

 

[Ghost765]

EXP is a rather bad idea since units die simply too fast, and you would have no time to react when a siege tank suddenly blows your lvl 5 marine to kingdom come.

just make all the changes you posted into a mod, or a map. I'm sure people would play it as an alternative to vanilla SC2

 

[Bloody_Turds]

i can say right now, that all the changes i posed WONT be in the mod, because it is an idea pool, some ideas will probably be rejected, as for exp, a siege tank blowing up your level 5 marine is exactly the point, i dont want exp to be a major factor in the game, but rather a little bit of bonus, for you to brag about XD, besides at level 5, a marine probably would have enough to survive atleast 1 direct blast..
think about it.. a marine has what 55 hp(-3 dmg from armor), after the upgrade
a sieged tank deals 75 damage fully upgraded
which means his experience needs to give him the equivalent of 18 hit-points in order to walk away (a 30% bonus), that is amusing i don't scrap the armor system, which is far to 1 sided, in favor of tech.. (maybe 1 armor can be a 10% reduction), now a marine at 3 in defense could take the equivalent of 71 damage (without being a high level.. which means roughly a 5% bonus would allow a marine to survive, means a level 2 marine should do fine

Although 60% dmg reduction on larger units may cause a bit of a problem, its nothing balance cant smooth out..
(yes a linear 10% armor bonus, meaning with 10 armor you would become 'immortal', although no units would probably get over 6 armor

I may end up changing the whole armor system around, because 60 armor sounds a lot more realistic than 6.. and would allow for more precision, while still allowing perfectly easy calculations (in this case 100 armor would be 100% dmg reduction), then a level upgrade could offer a 1-2 armor bonus, aswell as a minor hitpoint bonus, and damage bonus

 

[The World Is Flat]

Good idea. i support this...

as well as the inclusion of the XEL'NAGA (jk)

 

[Bloody_Turds]

havnt read to much about the lore, but wernt they suposed to be an ancient race, older than protoss? XD, if there is enough model resources included in the mpq, then i may THINK about adding them.. XD

 

[The World Is Flat]

XD.

add a titan to the terran and zerg and improve the mothership.

brutalisk for the zerg and... terratron for the terran?

 

[KingTobiazZz]

i can say right now, that all the changes i posed WONT be in the mod, because it is an idea pool, some ideas will probably be rejected, as for exp, a siege tank blowing up your level 5 marine is exactly the point, i dont want exp to be a major factor in the game, but rather a little bit of bonus, for you to brag about XD, besides at level 5, a marine probably would have enough to survive atleast 1 direct blast..
think about it.. a marine has what 55 hp(-3 dmg from armor), after the upgrade
a sieged tank deals 75 damage fully upgraded
which means his experience needs to give him the equivalent of 18 hit-points in order to walk away (a 30% bonus), that is amusing i don't scrap the armor system, which is far to 1 sided, in favor of tech.. (maybe 1 armor can be a 10% reduction), now a marine at 3 in defense could take the equivalent of 71 damage (without being a high level.. which means roughly a 5% bonus would allow a marine to survive, means a level 2 marine should do fine

Although 60% dmg reduction on larger units may cause a bit of a problem, its nothing balance cant smooth out..
(yes a linear 10% armor bonus, meaning with 10 armor you would become 'immortal', although no units would probably get over 6 armor

I may end up changing the whole armor system around, because 60 armor sounds a lot more realistic than 6.. and would allow for more precision, while still allowing perfectly easy calculations (in this case 100 armor would be 100% dmg reduction), then a level upgrade could offer a 1-2 armor bonus, aswell as a minor hitpoint bonus, and damage bonus

this starcraft, not warcraft. NO % ARMOR

 

[The World Is Flat]

unless you want to add it.

lol.

 

[Crazy Cow]

A unit using health instead of mana? That's amazing! +rep for you!

 

[Bloody_Turds]

@ no % armor
warcraft 3 is compounding % armor
a pure % armor, would be a hybrid between starcrafts system, but without the major disadvantage to ground units, (who at a point deal 0 damage)
with a % armor, its far easier to calculate..
Say i have 50 armor... thats 50% (asuming you made armor 1% in worldeditor, warcrafts armor would still only read about 40)

I love starcraft, but the armor system, really puts low tier at a disadvantage, (doncha think)

well not just low tier, but anything with a high attack rate, and low damage

a second look around, alot of the high tier units have only moderate damage (as opposed to sc1), and a high attackrate, making armor a little more feasible.. although well see what happens. (armor type, probably reduces a value, based on attack type), while armor upgrades decrease a % (the % will probably compound first, then armor type linear reductions)


@add a titan to the terran and zerg and improve the mothership.

brutalisk for the zerg and... terratron for the terran?

care to explain more? i believe the terratron is out there, and released by blizzard, but id still like a more descriptive idea, about each, what roles they fill, and what model to use.. (maybe a giant roach for brutalisk?, since i duno if ive got a plan for its model XD)

@ mothership, I really liked independence day , so hows 6-7 base armor (asuming i keep the current system, making any low damage units, like marines, and hydralisk deal 0-2 damage (or so), making its main weakness anti-air, and missle based attacks... ofc it would be slow moving, and have a charge time, of about half a nuke (keeping in mind the slow move, and the visible the whole time thing), but deal massive damage, and temporarily incapasitating itself (all its shields go down, and it takes full damage, even from marines) for a period.

just as an idea.. XD

 

[The World Is Flat]

The brutalisk is a campaign unit. it has a model.
it would be slow. but it could have a multi-unit attack. (uberlisk like) an no burrowing because of its size. it would also have a crapload of armor.


i don't know abotu the terratron, but i know the model comes with the game.

 

[Bloody_Turds]

ah, it sounds like all it is is an ultralisk on meth XD, what role you think it could fill? it has to be atleast a little different than an ultralisk in roles, or id go with the ultralisk, because its a more familiar unit, and would decrease the learning curve

 

[The World Is Flat]

maybe an upgrade of the ultralisk into an omegalisk?

http://www.vilegaming.com/datas/resources/art/art617-Omegalisk_concept.jpg

Or just use the brutalisk:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/_...rcraft/images/2/25/Brutalisk_SC2_DevGame3.jpg

its pretty awesome.

 

[Bloody_Turds]

lawl the brutalisk looks like a collos, it could definently fulfill a differnt role, maybe wacking plains outa the sky XD, a melee that hits air.. ^^

omegalisk would be a nice ultralisk upgrade, but weel see if its called for when i make the game, er if XD

 

[Bloody_Turds]

Update - Zerg more defined

Im pretty sure im going to include the evasion movement system now, and am currently balancing with that in mind, heres an update on the units, and their innitial stats (please tell me if you think anything seems a little strong/weak)
every unit ingame goes by the default settings unless otherwise noted (i didnt bother posting range, turnrate, armortypes, dmg types, concidering there mostly gonna remain the same, build times may be altered later), and there will be more zerg units added (air for 1, and maybe 1-3 more ground, depending on what roles have been left 'empty' (tell me if you see any empty roles, that need filled, yes there will be a drone.. but im not changing it much)

Systems:

Dodge/Evade

Dodging and Evasion
Each unit gets a base evasion level, this evasion is applied, when they are attacking, or standing still
This number gets multiplied, based on the units current movement speed. (very fast units can expect atleast a 2.5% multiplyer, while slow units will likely only see a 1.5% multiplyer,
Large units will have a smaller base evasion value, so a large/fast unit, (ultralisk), would be about as evasable as a small, medium unit, whereas a unit that is small and fast, such as a zergling will have high base evasion, and a high multiplyer, giving it just under 35% evasion while running (after upgrade), This may seem a little harsh, for the zergling, but keep in mind it has been debuffed accordingly.

Splash type weaponry such as tanks, will not miss, but rather have a target offset, based on distance, and projected position.

Lets say a tank can shoot 1500 range (going by warcraft 3, example, that seems to fit its range)
The formula would asume based on the movement speed, and direction, that the charging unit would be, at point Y when the tanks projectile arives, which happens to be 1200 away…, rather than homing missles, this leaves opurtunity for the other player to change course, dodging said missle (if there lucky)

The secondary part, would allow the tank to never 'perfectly' hit his/her target, but rather a random offset, the further from the target the greater the 'faulty' offset', meaning that the tank could potentially hit a target attempting to 'evade' the attack, almost as likely as a target following the correct path..

I think that a 20% of distance offset is fair?

Aka if the attack hits someone 1500 range away, it could hit in any direction of the actual target point up to 225 units (keep in mind that the tanks splash range is about 225-250 units, meaning that about 80% of the time, the 'target point' will be hit. Noting that the 'target point, isnt necessarily the point the enemy unit is at the point of impact

Melee units are only suceptable to 75% of the dodging (say a unit has 40% dodge, while moving, and it trys to run by a zealot, that zealot has a 70% chance to hit and a 30% chance to miss, while a stalker would have had only a 60% chance to hit..

on top of that, a 10% missrate will be tacked on, for low ground units hitting high ground ones (the sc1 sight system will be applied, where if they attack you, their revealed, otherwise you cant see up cliffs without air, or 'tall' units

Units:


Zerg

Zergling

ZERGLING (T1)
Descrip: just your average zergling, probably gonna be a bit more powerful now, with evasion, Ill have to see. A new upgrade will be added to allow zerglings to glide down and across small cliffs, and leap over units. For quicker and better surrounding, and getting past allied ranged units. (no longer evolves to baneling)

Hp 30
Dmg 5 +1(fast)
Armor 0+1
Base Evasion 14%
Movement Speed: Fast (evasion multiplyer 2) (2.5 after movespeed upgrade)

Price
4 for 110 gold, and 2 food

Upgrades:
Generic melee damage
Generic ground armor
Burrow

Attackspeed+30% (req hive)
Movespeed Upgrade
Glide (req lair) - glides down, and over small cliffs (not up), can also jump over units (such as hydralisk), in order to get to the front lines more easily, cannot jump buildings or anything denoted 'large'

Hydralisk

HYDRALISK (t 1.5)
Descrip: They will remain similar to the current hydralisk.. Perhaps I might add an upgrade for armor reducing attacks, or make their attacks completely ignore armor (maybe only ignore at max 2 armor), and move while burrowed. (maybe even an attack while burrowed later, wont be splash like lurker, but it may hit 2 targets.), Might also add neuroToxin to the attacks causing 5 extra damage to biological

Hp 70 (10 less than it currently is)

Dmg 8+1 (double attack(slow-very slow)) (hydralisk is default 12+1, with normal, so I would make it attack about 20% slower, but hit 2 targets, making it worse vs armored, and better vs unarmored)
Armor 1+1
Base Evasion 9%
Movement Speed: Fast (evasion multiplyer 2)

Price
100 minerals 25 gas, 1 food (25 gas, and 1 food less than its current price)

Abilities:
- Move while burrowed (3/4 speed)


Upgrades
Generic ranged dmg
Generic melee dmg
Generic ground armor
Burrow

Attack Range
Toxic Spines - causes any attacked biological units to take 5 damage over 5 seconds (stacking, can kill) (requires lair)
Extendable Claws - attacks while burrowed, at melee range, damage to be decided later (requires hive)

Ultralisk

ULTRALISK (T3)
Descrip: same ole ultralisk from sc2, except 1 able to walk over allied units, and maybe able to ram (knocking enemy units back, and damaging them, or damaging buildings (one building stops the charge). This will make him great at breaking chokepoints, especially if you have zerglings following up…
Maybe more hp, and maybe even 1 more base armor.


HP 700 (was 600) (also regens 5 hps)

Dmg 25+2 (same as it currently is, and it will deal splash the same aswell) (no longer deals 'extra' building dmg)
Armor 2+1 (was 1+1)
Base Evasion 5%
Movement speed: normal (evasion multiplyer 1.5)
Price:
300 minerals 150 gas 6 food (was 200 gas)

Abilitys
- Step-Over units (except while in charge)


Upgrades:
Gerneral melee dmg
Gerneral ground armor
Burrow

Armored Carpace +2
Charge - The ultralisk charges a target point, pushing units out of the way, each pushed unit takes 15 dmg, the charge is halted after it has dealt 500, damage. If the ultralisk hits a building, all the remaining damage, is done to that building, along with a 1/4 the damage to the building being delt to the ultralisk in recoil. Also increases the ultralisk movement speed by about 30% while charging, charge would only have a 1000 cast range (based on wc3 range, so when charging the ultralisk wouldn’t charge, untill he is within the 1000 range of his charge target. Cooldown is 30 seconds

Queen

QUEEN (T2) (requires lair, limit 1 per lair, or hive)
Descrip: Im not sure if im going to keep Restore/Transfusion on her, as that kinda leans more twards bringing your queen with you for the battle. As it currently is, you are choosing between missing a fertalize (to bolster your numbers quicker, and hormones (by bringing your queen with you to battle)

Hp 250

Dmg 10 (2 targets, ground normal), 25 (1 target. Air, slow)
Armor 1+1
Base evasion 10%
Movement speed: normal (evasion multiplyer 1.5) (keep in mind creep no longer speeds up the queen greatly, but I will probably give her a bit of movement speed, compared to her current off-creep state.

Price:
200 minerals, 2 food

Abilitys:
- FERTALIZE (increase the larvae of a target hatchery/lair/hive by 40%, for 90 seconds. Larvae amounts still cant pass that buildings maximum larvae count) (50 energy)

! - RESTORE (like transfusion, but weaker, autocast, and healing over time) 10 energy
- HORMONES - increase the attack rate, and movement speed of nearby units by 10% (yes this includes workers, and their harvest rate)
- INFEST - take over an enemy nexus/ or human equvalent, allowing production of infested terrain. The new building will also accept the return of minerals/gas and be capable of producing larvae, and creep, and the queen will be consumed in the process. Allowing for purchase of another one. (has a 10 second cast time, and a 30 second infest time) Infested comand centers will be capable of flight, and infested nexus, will remain shielded. Infested nexus will make infested zealots, infested command center, infested marines, both will be similar to their uninfested counterpart. (infested marines, might have less range, and be conciderably cheaper (maybe less dmg to), than regular marines, making them sit infront of hydralisk, and take the lionshare of the dmg. (also they wont be able to burrow) (150 mana)

Upgrades:
General ranged dmg
General ground armor

Baneling (give me your opinion, should it stay?)

BANELING (T2)
Descrip: Im still deciding on weather to ice this unit, for a more expensive, scarab type unit (a flying baneling, that drops its payload, then retreats. Each drop would require you to land, and spend 25-50 gold, to creat a new acid bomb., may have land and air form, along with burrow, may even be limited to the amount of time it can fly,(probably still wont hit air)…, but whatever it is, it will likely be t2.

 

[The World Is Flat]

gooooood.

keep the baneling. (maybe give it a THIRD morph into a Banelisk? OR give the mutalisk the ability to carry a baneling?) (air units should recive a bonus to certain ground units, to miss)

 

[Bloody_Turds]

i could probably add bonus miss chance for air, but i would have to counter-balance it with less hp, ofc, and i was thinking about mutulisk that carried banelings actually, but im thinking a smaller air unit might be better (something that is practically just wings, and maybe has a couple claws on the bottom., it would probably detonate in the air, showering the building/units with the acid, that then deals dot, but also making this unit hit air, really gives it to much opurtunity to pwn, as not only would it then be siege, but great at infantry, and air (any splash dmg is great vs air), in reality, the scourge of starcraft 1 were a stretch, because the only suicide type unit I can think of would probably do splash, and for some reason scourge didnt (ofc it wouldnt be balanced at that price if they did, or even if they smart targeted, just enough to kill each, at each flying)..
im still debating on the subject..
but probably an air suicide unit, with splash, and ground hitting capabilitys, sounds just a little to hard to balance properly. as its harrassment capabilitys have little limits, and you can fly in, take out the main building, before any reaction could happen, even if their army is within the base. Oh and anyone happen to know if that brutulisk model is included in the mpq, i could definently use it, as im looking for an anti-air ground unit, other than the hlisk, and infested marine, and it could definently wack units outa the sky or something of the like... (i kinda wana stray from air splash) and a melee air unit would be awsome, it would be slow moving, and easily kited, but when it hits, it would be able to almost 1hit a mutulisk or something, it would have a slow attack rate...

 

[The World Is Flat]

it will be, all of them will be (campaign units)

maybe a scourge/baneling combo?

 

[tagg1080]

I would recommend you spend some more time playing high level Starcraft before suggesting things like this.

Some of your ideas are interesting overall, but for Starcraft, they are not good at all.

As it has been said, luck is what ruins skill based games.

Units need Pro's and Con's otherwise we can just use the same build every game and win.


The thing that makes starcraft so awesome is the diversity, and the specific role of each unit.

You are proposing changes that are not inline with that idea.

So:
Your ideas = Good
Your ideas != Starcraft

 

[Bloody_Turds]

ah nice, off to find a video of it, so i can actually see how it attacks then XD, then im goin tabed btw +rep ^^


EDIT: ah tag.. kinda mean >.<, i am aware that diversity is a primary concern for starcraft, it was the same thing with warcraft 3, and im not trying to make a 1 size fits all unit, infact im trying to further diversify them...

there is a big difference between an idea pool, and whats actually going to be in the mod.... i was just trying to get ideas, pure, unfiltered ideas....

the one unit fits all is kinda why im removing the roach, because in sc2 most zerg games consist of roach massing, followed by mutulisk massing later.....

thats why i was debating about the baneling...., it somewhat crosses alot of roles, as its great for siege, defensive, and even offensive, if you can get up fast enough to explode....

the flying baneling, as discussed earlier wouldnt actually be as diverse, although 'technically' it could now hit air, and it could fly, it would be limited almost exclusively to a siege unit..... because theres no way it would survive 2-3 seconds channel time, with offensive units blowing at its whopping 10 hp!

 

[Bloody_Turds]

I just noticed, browsing through sc2's object data, that chance actually is encoded into each unit, but rather their attack rate.. instead of miss chance...

Infact every unit ive checked, had a field labeled random attack speed max, and random attack speed min (or something along those lines...
which basically takes the 'attack rate' and either. decreases its interval, or increases it, based on a random number...
this essentially means that not every attack with a zergling takes .67 seconds...
and not every attack with a roach takes 2 seconds... infact more often than not, those attack rates are either above or below the 'standard' attack rate...
Im not to sure as to the degree of this variation, but on the zergling with .67 seconds between each attack, there was about a .15 sec longer longer attack time, or .075 sec shorter attack time..., This means that there is a variant of about a 25% difference between the slowest, and the fastest possible attack, (asuming the attack-reset counter doesnt start at the base interval, but rather the point of the attack.., otherwise there could be as much as 50% difference, asuming the first attack was at the latest possible time, and the second attack was at its earliest, compared to first attack, earliest, and second attack latest...
a 50% difference.... thats quite alot of variation..., even 25% variation if the counter doesnt reset till the begining of the actual attack, instead of when it reaches base level....

btw ill still keep that system in the game, as im pretty sure its mostly to increase visual appeal, and the chaotic feel (it doesnt look as cool if every attack is the exact same distance appart..

Summing up my post, chance definently has its part... XD, its 'possible' that your zergling could only take his zergling (with all equal upgrades, and the innitial attack landing at the same time, and no one running ect, and no other units involved) down to half health before dieing...

although the actual odds of this happening are less than 1 in a billion.....
and your probably gonna argue, that evasion boast a chance that 100% of your attacks miss... and ill agree with you.. sure.. if its friday the 13th, your surrounded by black cats, and sitting under a ladder throwing rocks at a mirror, just before your game , but thats your own stupid fault

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

If you are talking about melee, most of those suggestions are completely pointless... For example, Hellion is a flame thrower attacking in line for a reason... Finally Terran has something good against zerglings yet becomes useless vs roaches. I can go on and on but dont wanna when I saw how long this thread and the texts are.. So +1 for the 'Sigh' post, I would say that too if in 1 word.

OK you are making fun suggestions, I get it.

 

[Rainbow Evil]

Much disagree...

 

[Statharas]

A system? Hell, we need a Space Game system.

 

[Bloody_Turds]

im aware that there are currently fair counters to almost every strat, that doesnt stop the tech tree from being bland, and im actually fairly suficient at zerg, eficient enough to say there kinda dull to play, (thats also why ive mentioned more about zerg thusfar, because i still dont know that much about the other 2 races,.. im aware that hellions had splash for a reason (mainly to counter zerglings) but then you gotta realize, mass marines kinda counters zerglings to XD, and infact alot of stuff, yet get pulverized by ultralisk, untill they decide to mush the marauder button aswell..., and for the record, firebats were 10 times the anti-zergling unit as hellions, i think hellions even have a target limit, cause ive rushed one with like 200 zerglings, it got off like 3 attacks, but those 3 attacks apeared to hit atleast 50 zerglings, yet only 10~ were damaged... firebats hit about 10 lings every flame, and with stim pack, they really pwnt.., why i suggested marauders, become firebats, as firebats with high hp, is a really potent combination..., great for absorbing frontal damage, and taking out any melee, or minor units, (and i believe they did extra to bio to?)

a vehicle with a machine gun, would be far more specialized, for one of the primary hellion roles (harrassment?)

there were countless complaints on the forums, about the human tech build being total fail.., so their sollution was to weaken marines (not saying they didnt need it, but even i think the nerfs were a bit much, and i dont even play terran... so from w here im standing there are flaws in the gameplay, that balance just wont fix.., and its a little late for them to revamp almost everything...

and yes this post is for a collection of ideas..., i would enjoy other peoples ideas aswell, and may incorperate them...

 

[The World Is Flat]

NIX HELLIONS COMPLETELY. they are a shitunit. Bring firebats back. as for a helion replacment, a buggy with the ability to fire on the move? with a little railgun or somthing? (slow fire, long range, maybe an armor pericing upgrade) OR a VAUSS cannon (extrmemely high rate of fire framentation rounds. (fragments are optional) that would be better for harass anyway. (having a slower RoF gun would help to offset the benifits of fireing while moveing, thus balancing....

 

[Rainbow Evil]

I like the idea of Hellions as a quick and mobile but light and vunerable unit, but that flamethrower kinda does suck. Railgun idea is awesome, and that armor piercing upgrade!

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

The point of hellions is they are quick and can kill all zerglings without losing them. A firebat is just an infantry unit that will get raped by zealots/zerglings as sooon as they reach him. If they improve the weapon, it should be the attack rate, not the ability to damage in line. The fire damaging in line is as it should be.

 

[Bloody_Turds]

zerglings, even if they could possibly get to an army of 50~ marines/ firebats (which unless coming from all sides, cant), would still get owned, and loose about double the resources...

As for the machinegun hellion thats what i was thinking, as it is a great harrassment unit, id give it mid range (slightly more than marine), a bit more dmg than a marine, and ability to fire on the run...., there has been discussion about allowing a marine to be loaded into it, increasing its rate of fire... and im still out on that subject, (or maybe even add a flame thrower), i could make the hellion by default 50$ cheaper, and not give it any weaponry, allowing you to load your own unit into it, and making it a scout alone.., any unit in it would benifit from a slight range increase, and maybe an attack rate increase as well.. so if someone wanted the old hellions, they could just equip with a firebat XD

 

[mrzwach]

Multi-stimming would be incredibly rigged. Perma-hp removal for using stim would be annoying as all hell, especially since terran relies on it a lot when using an infantry build. Terrans should never have melee units, and a chainsaw mech would be rather stupid. Ultralisk already has burrow. Replacing Spawn Larva with Fertalize is a bad idea, mass larva is good because its a unique way of producing units as zerg, en masse. Zerglings jumping down cliffs would be kinda fail. Changing the cliff-sight method would nerf most defensive strategies and make colossi even less useful than they are already, along with discouraging people from getting air units to provide vision. Hellions are an effective scout/harassment unit, giving terran Firebats at this point would make TvZ a massacre. You never build more than one queen per hatch anyways, so don't see the point.


Overall, I've played as Random for quite a while now, and fail to see how the tech tree is "boring". But hey, satisfy yourself.

 

[Bloody_Turds]

I personally find it extreemly anoying to have to use spawn larvae all the time..., and there alot of units that see little or no use, because they are to easy to counter, or are to weak

you say multi stimming would be incredibly rigged, yet in the very same sentence you say it would suck...
the thing about multi stimming is it could easily be countered by running, so unless you can corner them, or your loosing the fight, there isnt much reason to multi stimpack. Im aware that alot of 'infantry' builds rely on the infantrys ability to last battle after battle...
but should marines really be so strong, that they can last 10 battles?, without replenishing their numbers.., i mean after 10 stimpacks, your only loosing half your health..., thats after 10 stims with proper use..., do you have any other suggestions?, i dont really think a human mech with a chainsaw type weapon would be that illogical, especially when comparing it to the thor.. thats a hella lot of metal, for a unit that cant hardly fight (except for aa), yes the same cash worth of marines would be 2-5x as effective, and if you were to take a reality standpoint, a thor, should take the same amount of resources as like 10 tanks, but ofc lore doesnt really matter, as alot of those buildings would be alot bigger aswell...
but why cant human have some sorta melee tank/ structure demolisher, unless you think that the tank can be the only siege instraument in the human arsenal... i mean honestly wernt the humans the new kids on the block, i forget lore, but im sure zerg and protoss were probably fighting alot longer than humans have been in the picture..
logically a unit designed to absorb damage would be melee, cause it aint takin the hits if its in the front... so yea the human could definently use some kinda damage absorber, thats better at its job than your marine army...

and i dont know how many times that i stressed that this would be an ALTERNATE GAME, with a whole new tech, which may, or may not include collossi...

the point of limiting to 1 queen per LAIR, is because the new queen would be far more useful.. and as you said you need 1 queen per HATCH, yet you can only get 1 queen per lair, thus forceing you to either upgrade to lair, or go without the extra queen...

air is still effective, and great for harrassment even if you can see up cliffs, when attacks occure, sc1 had this system, and it turned out fine.. XD

firebats wont make tvz game over, because removing marauder, actually gives ultralisk a chance to shine..., although thus requireing a partial mech, or some other strat to counter them, (maybe the new hellions can have concussion gernades XD, or maybe snipers have a chance at dealing % dmg, or something, idk at this point..., as ive only been workin on zerg


For anyone else, if you dislike a suggestion on the list, feel free to tell me, but also explain why this suggestion isnt a good idea, WITHOUT using examples of how it will make current units usless and junk..., give the suggestions, if the skill sounds boring, or you dont necessarily understand what role it could fill, (not if its replacing some other units role)'

I also welcome other IDEAS or skills you think would be cool to see in the game, any ideas are open, and ill do my best to view them with an open mind.., Esentially no idea is rigged, as theres always some way it could be nerfed...., just telling me 'That idea fails" doesnt help me very much...

oh and how is mass larvae all that 'unique', all it does is spawn larvae after a duration, instead of over time.... the zerg spawning system itself is rather unique, but the spawn larvae skill is hardly an inventive new idea... its about as unique as giving a sniper a chance to critical strike... XD

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Fur custom maps/mods maybe but for melee they make no sense... But as above said, 'satisfy yourself'.

 

[Rainbow Evil]

May I say that many of your ideas are completly senseless when talking about melee ( at least to me ).

I find tech trees to be rather awesome. My favourite race is terran and may I say they rock. Gameplay is exciting as it is, and you sound like you are changing game throughrough.

As I said, might be awesome custom map but come on, Blizzard knew what was each unit's function when whey were putting it in game.

 

[Bloody_Turds]

im a little confused about your terminology.., melee is a map genera, such as aos, or td, warcraft 1-3's ladder, as well as starcraft 1&2's ladder, all fall under this genera, so will my my map..., although it will be a custom game..
My game will be a Custom mod(I may have a couple maps for it)...
It will still follow the melee genera, game type.., so yes it will be a 'melee' but no it wont be blizzards melee, but it will be pretty close to it, as its based off it.. (more-so based on starcraft 1), this 'alternate' to melee, will allow people to have something else to play, if/when they get bored of melee...
kind of like, how people created 'custom races' for warcraft 3, with different tech trees, races, and units.. except mine will be based on the same races, with SIMILAR (not exactly the same, but sharing alot of common ground) tech trees, and units... and a couple new systems...

or do you mean that none of these skills, or units would work on any type of 'melee game', because there's no way to balance them?

 

[The World Is Flat]

I want to war you. if you gave the buggy a MG attack it would be extremely imbalanced. (because of the attak rate)

 

[Rainbow Evil]

im a little confused about your terminology.., melee is a map genera, such as aos, or td, warcraft 1-3's ladder, as well as starcraft 1&2's ladder, all fall under this genera, so will my my map..., although it will be a custom game..
My game will be a Custom mod(I may have a couple maps for it)...
It will still follow the melee genera, game type.., so yes it will be a 'melee' but no it wont be blizzards melee, but it will be pretty close to it, as its based off it.. (more-so based on starcraft 1), this 'alternate' to melee, will allow people to have something else to play, if/when they get bored of melee...
kind of like, how people created 'custom races' for warcraft 3, with different tech trees, races, and units.. except mine will be based on the same races, with SIMILAR (not exactly the same, but sharing alot of common ground) tech trees, and units... and a couple new systems...

or do you mean that none of these skills, or units would work on any type of 'melee game', because there's no way to balance them?

If you are talking to me I ment like changing current units in melee, changing the game. By custom I mean a map where you play by melee rules so to say it with your units.

 

[redscores]

He wants to make a map which changes the races, so you don't have to worry at all... you should be alot more friendly, he doesn't try to change your loved, 1337 melee....

 

[Rainbow Evil]

Im not hostile, I m just saying that game itself is fine to me and that I dont support changing it. Making a map with his changes is other thing and I have absolutely nothing but support in that case.

 

[The World Is Flat]

how could it have been any different? what, you think he can change latter melee? LOL

 

[Rainbow Evil]

Lol, I know he cant

But the idea is aweful...