[Suggestions] Improving UI with Command Card stacking

[ALEXz407]

It's more the ideas for the distant future.
With [thread=261626]command buttons stacking[/thread] you can make cool command cards for hero and backpack/bag.

Hero command card

You can make awesome hero window:
- Map info tooltip in top-left corner (nonfunctional Attack Ground button with disabled shortcut, you can see how it works in demo map)
- Place Rest (X) and Smart Order (Z) below Map Info
- Now you have awesome 3x3 square for hero abilities! And they're all available without extra manipulations!
- All standart buttons (Move, Stop, Attack, Hold Position, Patrol) are hidden and you can not use them

Pros:
- Without attack button you can not attack friends or items!
>> Griefing protection
>> More sense for Dispell in some boss encounters, because you can not get around the mechanics with friendly fire
- All abilities available immediatly after selecting a hero
- It looks cool

Cons:
- You can not use standart orders (however, we don't use them anyway, because all abilities are inside our Q spellbook)

Smart Order for followers

suspect that suggested this before

I suggest to merge current two into one button.
If you target an enemy, followers will attack him.
If you target ground or an ally, followers will retreat to you.

Pros:
- One button instead of two

Cons:
- A little harder to order "Retreat"

Inventory command card

Inventory will be the repository of all extra features:
- Inventory/Bags info at top-left corner (Stop button with disabled shortcut)
- Mercenary control buttons (revive / dismiss). Hidden when you don't have merc
- Talent learning and Learned talents spellbooks
- Loot Rolling and PvP buttons
- Game Options (QI, Music, Camera, Pet behaviour)

Pros:
- Awesome All-in-One game interface

Cons:
- Maybe a little more complicated for beginners

Resource bag as a worker

it was suggested earlier 100%

I suggest to move Resource bags into workers category. It anyway has only "extra inventory slots" application, and main bonus "just pick item from hero inventory and place it into bag with dragging on icon" doesn't work with resource bags, because Hero&Inventory can not hold resources.
You can also add second Resource bag easily, because Idle Worker button (F8) will scroll every bag. (plus you can put "select second bag"/"select first bag" buttons in bag's command cards)

Pros:
- You can see all 6 heroes + inventory on the screen
- You can use 2 resource bags (easier to farm materials)

Cons:
- 2 bags means +6 slots to save code
- Requires coding for support 2 bags

________________
What do you think?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I thought about this, but realized that it would probably be more trouble than it's worth.
If I'd implement this, then I'd have to reduce the number of skills you can learn at the same time in order to make it work. Just think about what would be required on the hero command card aside from the abilities:

[attack] [stop] [rest] [dice] [talents]

... and that is only if I move the options menu to the bag.

So we'd have only 7 empty spots for abilities left. And even if I reduce the number of abilities learned at the same time to 7, where would the attack and retreat pet commands go?


Material bag as a worker would actually work. I see your point with the drag & drop functionality not working on resource bags anyway. But I still see a problem with it that is intuitive design. It would probably be confusing if the normal bag is directly underneath the hero, but the resource bag is on the bottom of the screen. What do others think of this?
I never felt like a 6th hero button was actually needed in the game. You hardly ever play a game at full house. Also, all content is balanced for 4 players anyway and dungeons are limited to 5 players.

 

[ALEXz407]

EDIT BY ZWIEBEL: sorry, I accidently edited your post instead of quoting it! Do you still have the post somewhere?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Main functions can be ordered with right click:
Attack - right click on an enemy.
Stop - right click on the ground.

Many people like "S" to cancel spells. I personally always move, but there are people that do it that way.
Attacking friendlies is a core feature of the game that is required for several boss battles. But you can't remove all commands anyway, so then "attack" would be the one to stay, obviously. Still, doesn't change the fact that stop has to stay aswell.

Attack/Retreat for followers - important thing too, it can take 0,2 slot after combining current Attack+Retreat buttons.

Retreat and attack combined? Sounds very unintuitive to me.

Dice - purely extra thing, can be placed in inventory.

It would be annoying as hell to switch to the bag every time you want to roll on an item.

Talents - they can be placed in inventory, like current talent trees. The player will notice that his inventory icon glowing and have a number over it. And inside inventory he will notice same number on the Talents button.

Would work... but I'd prefer having them on the main hero.

Problem with this - can not change "Idle workers" name and tooltip, so it's confusing a bit. But if the player clicks on this button, everything will be fine i think. You can also mention Resource bag in inventory and hero tooltips.

You can change name and tooltip. It's in game interface.


Hmm, let's just say I get rid of "stop" aswell (Considering that you can't "stop" when having the spellbook open anyways, so it's not like it's terribly important), it would come down to this:
[attack] [rest] [roll] [talents] for the first row, and 8 slots for spells in the second and third row. Not that bad. I think reducing the number of spells that can be learned at the same time to 8 would not really "break" the game.
Still, the problem remains that we have no room for the pet commands that way, even with a combined attack/retreat mechanic, unless I reduce the number of spells learnable to 7, which imho would hurt the game a lot.

I could probably make it so that the attack button double-functions as a way to attack friendlies and to issue orders to pets. So if you a-click on a friendly unit, you perform friendly fire and if you a-click on an enemy, you order your pets to attack that target. If you just rightclick an enemy, the pets won't change their current target.

So then we would have:
[attack/pet attack] [rest] [roll] [talents] in the first row, plus 8 abilities.
Still, a way to retreat pets is missing. If only there was a way to remove the default command buttons without disabling their hotkeys...

EDIT: Genius idea! Why not just swap [rest] with [retreat] as soon as you enter combat? You can't use rest in combat anyway...

So that would mean we have:

[attack/pet attack] [rest/retreat] [roll] [talents] in the first row. Everything important is there now. [options] will go to the bag, revive and dismiss merc commands will go there too.

This still means there are only 8 abilities at the same time. Now the question is: would players dislike the idea of having one ability less?
I'll make a poll about that.

 

[ALEXz407]

It would be annoying as hell to switch to the bag every time you want to roll on an item.

Usually items are rolled after boss fight. Player in any case will use inventory to pick up item, so I do not see a problem, especially if roll will have good shortcut.

Would work... but I'd prefer having them on the main hero.

What is the benefit of [talents] button in hero command card? Player will use it only while selecting new talents, all the rest of the time it will take 1 slot without any battle functionality.

[attack/pet attack] [rest/retreat] [roll] [talents] in the first row.

Awesome idea with [rest/retreat]!
So, if you place [Roll] and [Talents] into inventory, hero command panel will be able to contain 10 spells!

Then command card of the newly created hero will look like:
[Attack/Pet Attack][Rest/Retreat][Ability 1][Ability 2]
[Ability Slot][Ability Slot][Ability Slot][Ability Slot]
[Ability Slot][Ability Slot][Ability Slot][Ability Slot]

You can add placeholders for [Ability Slot] (i.e. "Visit a Class Trainer or use an Ability Scroll to learn new abilities") so command card will be more vibrant.

EDIT BY ZWIEBEL: sorry, I accidently edited your post instead of quoting it! Do you still have the post somewhere?

Nope. But you quoted all important things, so it's ok

P.S. I guess I was not very attentive with "Idle workers", so all things are better than i think, thanks.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

What is the benefit of [talents] button in hero command card? Player will use it only while selecting new talents, all the rest of the time it will take 1 slot without any battle functionality.

I think this is a matter of intuitive design. I never liked that talents were on the backpack in the first place. Now that the skill system is gone, I could finally move talents to the hero instead for the sake of immersion.
It's not like there is a real gameplay reason why the talents should be on the hero, but it feels like they have to be there, simply for the sake of immersion.

So, if you place [Roll] and [Talents] into inventory, hero command panel will be able to contain 10 spells!

I'm still not sold on the idea to move "roll" on the bag. I still think anything that is relevant to normal gameplay should be on the hero; but let's see what the community thinks of this. I can also just move "roll" into "options" and instead place "options" on the hero.

 

[Xonok]

I don't think roll is an actual spell in the sense that you have to be able to cast it instantly. Because of this, it shouldn't have a button at all imo, but if there is, then it shouldn't be on the hero. The reason being that, in my vision, the hero's command card is for strictly combat-related buttons. Rolling is a secondary feature compared to stuff like abilities.

 

[ALEXz407]

I think this is a matter of intuitive design...

Hero - all things needed in battle. So every button will be useful when hero selected.

Backpack - all things that you can configure in peaceful mode. You know, it's weird to choose talents during battle, or roll items... Only things that can be useful in fight: Merc revive and Toggle pet behaviour. First must be limited to peaceful mode only, and second can be duplicated with "-pet" chat command if you want add this ability for Rangers/Druids/Necromancers/Sorcerers/Solo with Merc players.

It is more intuitive in my opinion.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I don't think roll is an actual spell in the sense that you have to be able to cast it instantly. Because of this, it shouldn't have a button at all imo, but if there is, then it shouldn't be on the hero. The reason being that, in my vision, the hero's command card is for strictly combat-related buttons. Rolling is a secondary feature compared to stuff like abilities.

Alright, I agree that roll could be part of the backpack. I was just thinking that it's used frequently so it might be good to keep it accessable. But yeah, it's not like it wouldn't make sense to have this on the backpack. Backpack is inventory-related after all.

So, let's just assume we move roll, merc revive/dismiss and options to the backpack, in that case I could definitely fit all 9 spells into the command card:

Version 5

[Attack / Pet Attack] [Rest / Retreat] [Talents] [Spell 9]
[Spell 1] [Spell 2] [Spell 3] [Spell 4]
[Spell 5] [Spell 6] [Spell 7] [Spell 8]


To reduce the visual clutter, I could probably import very basic icons for attack, rest/retreat and talents, so that the ability icons clearly "stick out" visually. I was thinking about using different icon borders there or using only greyscale icons.

 

[filaretos]

i really dont get why we must have a roll and options buttons. i feel its fine by using -roll -music etc. and to be honest i really like the normal wc3 interface with the attack-stop-hold etc keys. i agree with zwie the talents should be with the hero command card. and xonok is right that in hero command card there should be only combat related stuff. lets keep the good old spellbook i really liked it (yes having the spells on hero card would be easier but i like the wc3 interface so much that i can deal with it).

 

[kevs926]

is there a way to make this optional?

 

[BoxOfFaith]

I think I like it the way it is now most tbh :s.

 

[ALEXz407]

Just to clarify everything, here is comparison between current and suggested interfaces:

	Old (current)	New (suggested)
Abilities maximum	9	9
How to use abilities?	Select Hero (F1) -> Open Spell Book (Q)	Select Hero (F1)
How to rest after battle?	Close Spell Book (ESC) -> Rest (R)	Rest/Retreat (C)
How to command followers attack?	Pet Attack (X)	Attack/Pet Attack (X)
How to command followers retreat?	Retreat (C)	Rest/Retreat (C) in battle
How to attack a friend in battle? (to break ice cage for example)	Close Spell Book (ESC) -> Attack (A)	Attack/Pet Attack (X)
How to learn skills(talents)?	Select Hero (F1) -> Hero Abilities (O)	Select Hero (F1) -> Hero Abilities (O)
How to revive/dismiss mercenary?	Select Hero (F1) -> Revive (E) / Dismiss	Select Backpack (F2) -> Revive (E) / Dismiss
How to open game options?	Select Hero (F1) -> Game Options (Z)	Select Backpack (F2) -> Game Options (Z)?
How to roll items?	Select Hero (F1) -> Roll (W)	Select Backpack (F2) -> Roll (W)
Hero command card

Thus, we can say that New interface will make gameplay more convenient. Because you will not waste time on intermediate actions (open/close spellbook).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

is there a way to make this optional?

Yes, but it would require changing the hotkeys of attack and rest (A->X and R->C), so that it matches the pet attack/retreat functionality. I don't know if that feels intuitive.

 

[ALEXz407]

Yes, but it would require changing the hotkeys of attack and rest (A->X and R->C), so that it matches the pet attack/retreat functionality. I don't know if that feels intuitive.

Or you can keep standart [Attack/Pet attack] and [Rest/Retreat] shortcuts, but it will require check abilities shortcuts of all 15 classes and change them if they override this buttons.

Nevermind. Better a non-intuitive shortcuts for infrequently used buttons that fingerbreaking spells layout.

UPD: I visualized keyboard layouts for classes, so moving A and R buttons will be easier. (using information from the wiki, i hope it isn't outdated)

Cleric, Bishop, Monk:
A - Soul Strike
R - none
F - Flash of Light overrides Symbol of Fury for Bishop!

Magician, Sorcerer, Necromancer:
A - Meteor Strike
R - Incinerate
R - Curse of the Vampire

Ranger, Hunter, Druid:
A - Remedy
R - Feline Reflexes

Thief, Assassin, Bard:
A - Bladefury
A - Vigor
R - Stealth

Squire, Crusader, Berserker:
A - Demoralizing Shout
R - Shiel Slam

Correct me if some buttons are wrong in layouts.

 

[galactcus]

why not talents in the backpack??
so we can have space for 10 spells :/

 

[ALEXz407]

why not talents in the backpack??
so we can have space for 10 spells :/

[post=2642340]Here is the answer[/post] - both technical reasons (if something went wrong with button stacking) and gameplay balance.

I hope we will see 10 abilities in the future (after releasing d4 and heroic modes) or maybe there will be something new for this slot with using "Z" shortcut? Who knows.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I experimented with alternative layouts now since the new talent system requires another button for the talent archive and this is how the command card looks now with merc buttons enabled.

To reduce the clutter a little, I removed the pointless hold position and patrol commands. The options menu is now on the top right; the rest command on top of the spellbook.

The button on the right in the middle row is the talent menu. The button below is the talent archive.


I think a more consistent design in terms of icons would be cool, though.

 

[ALEXz407]

I experimented with alternative layouts now since the new talent system requires another button for the talent archive and this is how the command card looks now with merc buttons enabled.

Without a mercenary there will be a black hole at the center of command card?
Maybe something like this (middle row - functional buttons, bottom row - skills and followers control (Toggle Pet Behaviour here is too)):

And speaking of layout without a spellbook:
Because talents are 2 "dead buttons" in fight, they can be transferred into a backpack.
Then bottom left button at Hero card will be [Z Toggle Pet Behaviour] and it goes well with [X Attack / Pet Attack] and [C Rest / Retreat]. It look like all battle buttons will be at hero card and grouped perfectly!
What do you think?

I think a more consistent design in terms of icons would be cool, though.

It would be super cool to find an icon-maker person and order icons in Gaias style.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Created some new icons for the hero command card. Looks like my GIMP skills have really rusted over the years... I tried to match the new icons for rest, stop, revive and attack with the icon design of the default move icon.
... and damn, I think it looks hot now!

If only we had a spare megabyte for a custom UI skin aswell...

Also, due to popular demand, the spells will stay inside the spellbook.

 

[ALEXz407]

Created some new icons for the hero command card.

Looks nice.

Also, due to popular demand, the spells will stay inside the spellbook.

Why community loves to stick to archaic solutions? Eh ...

I have prepared a small scheme of UI changes that was reject by community.
Why? Just to compare how it will be and how it could be.

Show scheme

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Why community loves to stick to archaic solutions? Eh ...

It's still miles better than the old one, even with spells inside the spellbook just for the consistent icon style alone.
Also, there's no more buttons on the backpack. Which makes the controls far more intuitive.


Also, good news; I did some testing runs now and the talent system works as intended. Unlearning talents works flawless aswell; I still have to check for compatibility to older saves, though (and test some of the new talents for proper function).

Other than that, there's only one more thing on the list before I can release 1.2A(9) to the public: the new level 22-25 quest that will replace the Shadow Seal.

 

[Antivirus123]

Hm is it just me or anyone else thinks the icon change wasn't really needed?
It looks like they really don't fit into the game the old ones looked way better in my opinion :S
Just compare the Red Icons and the Spellbook one.. the usual wc3 ones looked really great and just fit perfeclty :/

 

[Jumbo]

Everything ALEX has come up with is great in my opinion. I don't get why people are so conservative -.-
Also Zwiebs icons are good. I LOVE the rest icon (hint hint Baldur's Gate fan).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Hm is it just me or anyone else thinks the icon change wasn't really needed?
It looks like they really don't fit into the game the old ones looked way better in my opinion :S
Just compare the Red Icons and the Spellbook one.. the usual wc3 ones looked really great and just fit perfeclty :/

I felt it made the command card too colorful and cluttered. I think it looks way more consistent now.

 

[Antivirus123]

Well then atleast you could consider to change the Spellbook icons aswell. They just dont fit in any way if you keep them like they are in the Screen above.

 

[Devlain]

Some people would really hate me, but I think this game has many spells. I'm pretty comfortable when my character has between 5-7 spells, but that a design prefference.
I really like to have all my abilities on my character first screen without having to open an spellbook, but I think there's no way we can have so many spells on our main screen with so many commands we have.
I totally agree that character customization options (Attributes or Talents) and rolling should be on the backpack. I feel them uncomfortable to be on my character card.
Also, if I could ask, I really like a list of chat commands in-game.
Well, that are my suggestions

 

[Zwiebelchen]

There are no more chat commands other than load, so a list is hardly neccesary.