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Squad-based Fantasy RTS

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by Wazzz, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Okay, this project so far has no name, but that is not a priority for me yet as I still have some work left to do on it.

    Basically, this is an RTS where units come in squads (some might say 'just like godfall', but this is not the case).
    The original inspiration for THIS mod lies in my friend randomly telling me to make a mod with a crap load of ideas for the Undead (as I was wanting to start a new project using a squad system made for me by Illidan(Evil)x). After discussing these ideas with my friend, I found myself amazingly excited about these gameplay concepts, as they were amazing and sounded really fun to both implement and play with once implemented.

    Anyway, his ideas were for the Undead primarily, and when it came to coming up with ideas for the Humans, he wanted them to be more 'standard'. However, he did come up with a few ideas here and there, which I later expanded on and found myself beginning to enjoy the Human race's gameplay ideas, too.

    So, here is what the gameplay should look like so far:

    Gameplay Elements


    Some basic elements include:
    - Items representing upgrades for your units
    - Squad system
    - Creep camps
    - 'Hero' units have researchable Wargear, essentially letting you choose their gameplay style (Hero units do not level)
    - Custom Defense and Resistance system (Defense reduces damage taken from physical attacks, Resistance reduces damage taken from magic attacks and spells
    - Not all spells can be researched (i.e. You must create a combination for yourself, so you can play to your own style)

    Undead


    Key Concepts: Gameplay revolves around the use of a Necromancer, which is used to summon unit squads at graveyards using mana as the Undead's primary resource. The Necromancer is the only unit in the game (so far) to 'level up', which is the Undead's equivellent of climbing the techtree (i.e. it enables new units to be trained, enables abilties for certain units and increases pop. cap).


    Gameplay Style: What I hope to accomplish from this particular race is to have them more suited for an offensive style of play. This is easily accomplished as the Necromancer needs to 'level' up in order to unlock new tech.
    As the Necromancer performs all the required roles in terms of buildings, there is no basebuilding at all for this race. However, you do need to be in a Graveyard to summon more units. These Graveyards will be in strategic locations like Gold Mines for the Humans, but they won't be as plentiful as you can raze certain Creep Camps to create more Graveyards to work from (essentially expanding your domain).
    Summoned units start with only 1 unit in their squad (except for one unit, so far), and will grow in number over time to their squad maximum while in a Graveyard (allowing for squads to replenish in number).


    Humans



    Key Concepts: The Humans are a little more 'conventional' in their gameplay style, in that they build up their base, manage their resources and pump out units from various buildings.

    Gameplay: The Human's techtree operates in a progressional structure. Essentially, to get certain units which are higher up in the techtree, you are required to get units from the lower end of the techtree. For example, the most basic unit you can get is a Peasant Squad (which is your worker unit). You can get these pretty easily, especially later in the game. In order to get your first melee unit (the Militia Footman squad), you must recruit a Peasant Squad and then train it at the Barracks (specifying that you want a Militia Footman squad, naturally). The same applies for the first melee unit (the Militia Archer squad). Now, while the Militia Footman squad can go no further, the Militia Archer squad can enter the Stables and be trained in horseback archery to become a Militia Cavalry Squad (which isn't necessarily better than the Militia Archer, just faster and more expensive [roles will be different, which is one thing I noticed most Progressional Techtree Structures lacked]).

    _________________________________________________________________

    So, that's all I have to say for now. Hopefully a playable beta version should be out soon. Oh, and I am planning out an Orc race in future, but I will probably release the beta with just Humans and Undead first (after beta testing here, naturally).

    Now, over to you, Hive. Your thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
  2. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    Once again, I offer my help.

    The Undead are kinda complex, I don't really understand it... So you have hero, whose a called a Necromancer. When he enters a Graveyard...the Graveyard can train units? Also, how are Graveyards built, and are there any upgrades for the Undead? This gameplay really limits the Undead, though I like your ideas.

    The Humans, so how do these 'upgrades' work? Will the 'Barracks' and 'Stables' sell dummy items to a Peasant squad leader, who upon receiving them, will turn his squad into a brand new squad of Footmen? Or is it some other way?
    Btw, by requiring to get lower-tech units, it will be a hastle late-game for human players to get any good units out.
     
  3. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Undead: Not quite, basically you enter a Graveyard and the Necromancer is then able to summon units. This will be accomplished by having all the Summoning Spells in one Spellbook and enabling the Spellbook while the Necromancer is in the Graveyard.

    Oh, and when you reach level 20 on your Necromancer, you will be able to turn it into a Lich. However, while the Lich is much more powerful than the Necro, the Necro has an advantage over the Lich in that if it dies, it can spawn a Ghost that can only be killed if the enemy has Detection. The Ghost can then go to a Graveyard and bring itself back in flesh form.

    Human: Yeah, it's pretty much like that. Using the items for upgrades makes it easier to do things like that.

    And yea, it will be pretty micro intense, but at the same time you will end up being able to get so many Peasants in the late game (Your Townhall can sell up to 3 squads at once while every Hovel can sell 1 squad each) that you'll literally just have to right click them to go into the Barracks. It's similar to Battle Realms in that way.

    Oh, and naturally, there are some units (other than the Peasant, obviously :p) that you can train directly (one from the Barracks, two from the Church/Monastary).
     
  4. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    Do you only get one Necromancer? And again, how is the Graveyard built? Ghost idea is very cool, I like it. Could add some more depth to it instead of 'run to GY asap' (eg. it could have possession or some aura or something).

    Don't emphasise too much on micro, it can ruin a game (just like those stupid Queens in Sc2), by focusing too much on a player's APM and not his actual strategic thinking.
     
  5. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Oh yea, forgot to mention the Graveyards :p
    They're just placed, they're sort of like Gold Mines really. And when you kill certain Creep Camps off, you will be able to Raze them (probably have a Zone you have to use a certain ability in or just make the process automatic).

    You only get one Necromancer, yes. If it dies, it's not the end of the game, though, and you will be able outfit it with equipment to improve it. Making it become a Lich stops the regernation feature but makes it very powerful, so it's sort of like an all-in ability.

    I like the Queens in sc2 =D
    But yea, I'm not emphasising too much on micro, but at the same time it's not too hard to manage this progressional techtree (it works by inserting the unit into the building, the rest is automatic).
     
  6. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    Ewww...inter-techree-al...

    Now that that's out of my chest, perhaps the Necromancer 'haunts' them instead (just like the good ol' acolytes), as it seems strange that Graveyards lie randomly on a battlefield with a pack of wolves around them. It eliminates the need for 1 entire resource for 1 race only (which imo is kinda bad for a strategy map/game).

    With the Necromancer, it won't be offensive right? It should be like a Zerg Queen (I love queens and acolytes in examples) that is more of a base management/support unit.
     
  7. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    It does have an attack, but in a squad-based environment it won't do too much. However, it all depends on what spellset you choose for it. You will either be able to choose one book with a designated set of spells or choose several spells customly (not too sure which one I'll go with, depends on what other equipment I need to add for the Necro), but ultimately you won't want to have your Necro in battle.

    FUUUUUUUUU-
    There were a couple of thing I forgot to mention. Units higher up in the techtree will often require a secondary resource called 'Soul Energy' or something like that. To put it simply, you get this by killing things (to further emphasise that the more the Undead kills things, the stronger they get).

    Oh, and Graveyards themselves won't have a pack of Wolves or any creeps within them, the locations starting as Graveyards won't have any creeps and Creep Camps won't be able to be converted until the creeps guarding it are killed off (or something along those lines, you wouldn't want to have your Necro converting it to a Graveyard while there are creeps there).

    I do like the Haunting idea, could work, but could you further elaborate on how you mean plz?
     
  8. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    1. Should choose the spells separately (the latter). It allows a more diverse arsenal for the Necromancer. The Necromancer should have a 'defense by offense' spellset, ie. the spells are only useful in defending, but affected an attacker offensively. An example would be a spell that summons a ward which attacks or drains the HP of nearby enemies.

    2. I don't like it. Again, you're focusing on the Undead too much. What about the poor humans? What 2nd resource do they get? Plus, with the Necromancer gaining experience and levels to increase tech, the Necro himself is a walking secondary resource.

    3. Oh, well I got the idea from this REALLY old (but still fun) game called WarCraft III, you may have heard of it. Basically, the Necromancer can Haunt gold mines.
    Unless this was your plan all along (your 3rd paragraph in the above post confused me a bit). So, Gold Mines, just like in melee games, are the prime resource. The Necromancer can haunt them. And, the Humans and any other race also use Gold Mines, thus eliminating a race-exclusive neutral/resource building (the Graveyard).

    I'm a bad explainer :(
     
  9. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Oh, you mean using the Necromancer for harvesting? Pfft, I was thinking more along the lines of Necromancer's Mana is the primary resource, Soul Energy is the secondary resource. You only get Soul Energy from killing things.

    But yes, the whole idea of the Undead is to focus on controlling your Necromancer in such a way that you are able to raise an army and destroy the enemy through superior numbers. Essentially, you will want to be on the offensive most of the time as the Undead in order to get your Necromancer's level up, get more Soul Energy, and ultimately keep on top of your enemy's unit numbers (it's very resourceful for the Undead to attack Creep Camps).

    Now, this may seem unfair for the Humans. But think of it this way. The Humans will require multiple buildings in order to get their units, but at the same time they will be able to mass produce units pretty quickly. The Necromancer will only be able to summon one squad before needing to wait for the cooldown to finish (it applies to the Spellbook as a whole).

    The Undead could kill a Human production facility (such as the Barracks or Stables or whatever) and it wouldn't mean too much. If the Humans kill the Necromancer, that shuts down all production for the Undead and puts them at an instant risk of losing the game.

    At the same time, the Necromancer provides upgrades (forgot to mention that for 'hero abilities', you will be able to select the next level of upgrades for your units [but it may only effect units within a certain range, to be determined]), provides income, is able to use spells and is used to raise the dead (able to summon units faster than the Humans can produce military units on account of the fact you only have one unit production facility), provides the food cap and becomes more and more powerful as it levels up.

    Basically, it's a new way to play the game. While the Humans will be able to play a more 'standard' style of game (which is boring to me, so I added some features to boost their playability), the Undead play a very offensive, all-in sort of game. But at the same time, you can play Macro style or Micro style with the Undead, depending on what way you use the Necromancer. However, the better players will always be attacking something as the Undead in order to improve their 'base'.
     
  10. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    Nay, never meant that. I meant that there shouldn't be 'placed' capturable Graveyards (which only the Undead race can use/capture), but there should be Gold Mines which Humans can mine from and Undead can Haunt. If this was your idea all along, then I must have misunderstood. I thought the Necromancer's Mana was basically just a 'cooldown' for unit training. But, if his Mana is his primary resource, well it will shatter any hopes of massing troops, combining the fact that Necros must first enter Graveyards (and there's 1 Necro only), and then he has to use his own Mana to summon units.

    See here sir, Soul Energy is basically one-sided for the Undead. It's not good to make a resource specific (or a resource that benefits alot more) for only 1 race (eg. a game allows only 'Wood Elves' to gain Lumber), so you should aim for something Humans and Undead both use, but use differently.

    I don't think you should focus the race's entire survival based on the Necromancer. I like him leveling up, providing upgrades and shit, but he shouldn't provide income and food cap. I would have though Graveyards do that, so as to encourage Undead players to quickly expand. Perhaps the Graveyards automatically generate Gold or some shit periodically.
     
  11. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    OH, I see what you mean XD
    Can't believe I didn't understand that now lol
    Yeah, that could work well (or something like that =D)

    I don't see why I should aim for the Undead and Humans to use the same resources, though.

    And as the Undead, you don't actually control the Graveyards, you just visit them to raise the dead ^^
     
  12. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    Imagine a Wc3 game where Humans harvested Gold, Orcs harvested Lumber, Undead harvested Bone, and NE harvested ...wool. Not only is it unorganised, but there would have to be a Gold Mine, Trees, Bone Pits, and...Sheep herds on every single map. Ofc, Soul Energy isn't harvested (it's generated from kills as you say), so there won't be any 'Soul Deposits'(or some shit), but it would still be stupid having an icon sitting there in the resource panel, constantly at zero when you play as the Human race. And when you mouse over it, it'll read 'Undead gain it from kills. Only Undead. Benefits Undead. Undead only.' If you were to use another resource, which would fit both races eg. Fate Points (from BFME), the Undead could use Fate Points to train their high-tech units, and the Humans could use Fate to upgrade units or something. This allows both to use, but both to use differently. And, yeah, all you really need to do is decide on a use for Humans and change the name of 'Soul Energy' to something more broad (such as Fate).

    You must find a way to by-pass this as well. HINT: Don't give the Necromancer Blink.
     
  13. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    lol, Necromancer with Blink is the last thing I want XD

    It wouldn't be disorganised, the Undead are going to be the only race that uses completely different resources to the other races. Anywayz, it's much c00ler this way.
     
  14. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    How much tiger's bl00d did you take?

    I can't explain why, but I just don't think giving 1 race its own resource is fair. I wouldn't mind if all the races used it but the Undead used Soul Energy in a more unique and effective manner (though the more effectively they use it, the more they must be nerfed).
     
  15. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    It all depends on how it's executed, tbh. Basically, what I want to do is make two races with completely different play styles balanced against each other. And when I include Orcs, they will be different too (but will use the same resources as Humans).
     
  16. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    Oh, k. What races are you gonna include btw?
     
  17. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    So far, that's all as far as playable races go.
    I do have concepts for Demons, Dark Elves, and possibly Wood Elves, but I don't know whether I will go for any more (I want to get the Humans and Undead finished first, then Orcs, then see where the project goes after that :p). So far, the one I'm leaning towards going for after Orcs would be Demons, but that depends on numerous things.
     
  18. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    Yah, ok. If you need, I can brainstorm some unit ideas just like last time.
     
  19. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    Ah cool, I'll keep that in mind if I get stuck with Orc units ^^
    Or when I'm coming up with Demon units I may get stuck O:
     
  20. Sunshine and Night

    Sunshine and Night

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    Ill help too

    also i think if you do orcs then demons it seems like too many evil races

    also call the Dark Elves Drow or remake them as high elves it will look like this


    Good
    Humans
    High Elves
    Wood Elves

    Evil
    Undead
    Orcs
    Demons