Slaughterhouse and Derivatives

[Moderator]

08:32, 24th Sep 2013
enjoy: Corresponding resource approved.

 

[Moderator]

Misha 9th Nov 2013

Moderator's Review:

'tis useful slightly different looks

Reasons specified in the PM

 

[Lordul Dracula]

Good work.
5/5

 

[Misha]

something here is.. too similar to a normal slaughterhouse.. the wheel maybe? it could use a new concept or so?

 

[Darkloid]

I think the slaughterhouse is Scourge based, something like an apothecarium should be made instead, you know, some kind of creepy laboratory sort of thing.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I think the slaughterhouse is Scourge based, something like an apothecarium should be made instead, you know, some kind of creepy laboratory sort of thing.

QFT.

At least turn the wheel sideways? Maybe put big potion vials on it? Like a centrifuge in chemistry class? (actually, I gotta use that somewhere else).

Yeaaaah.

//EDIT - "Apothecarium" is a great name, but unfortunately clashes with the (nearly necessary) "Apothecary" unit/hero... What about "(Royal) Laboratory"?

 

[Biggrouse]

the forsaken have plenty of abominations i think the concept is fine

 

[Go'el]

Nice, you will also make custom unis for the Forsaken ?

*sorry about my English*

 

[NourmeusXL]

Slaughter house is attached to the scourge ones,since that Sylvannas freed herself from Lich King,so this is too much similar to the slaughter house,perhaps you shoud make Some creepy laboratory,and heres an idea,if you are going to RMK it make spikes around the buillding and make some parts of the abomonation on a few of the spikes,so it really does look like Forsaken.Scourge and Forsaken are 2 difrent thing,besides they share afterlife nothing else coud be similar to them.

 

[NelsonLaJe]

wooooow nicee D

 

[Hawkwing]

If this model is not accepted because the lack of originality in its design (specifically the desire to have it's wheel rotated or adjusted in some other way), I'm almost inclined to petition the moderators to rethink this decision. This issue is a creative one. not a technical one. So long as the model functions fine, I feel it should be approved. It makes a good equivalent to the Slaughterhouse, while still being distinguishable from the original model. I would personally be disappointed if this was changed. Now if Ujimasa Hojo were to go ahead and modify it and submit that as a separate model, I would welcome having multiple variations available for download.

 

[Kyrbi0]

If this model is not accepted because the lack of originality in its design (specifically the desire to have it's wheel rotated or adjusted in some other way), I'm almost inclined to petition the moderators to rethink this decision. This issue is a creative one. not a technical one. So long as the model functions fine, I feel it should be approved. It makes a good equivalent to the Slaughterhouse, while still being distinguishable from the original model. I would personally be disappointed if this was changed. Now if Ujimasa Hojo were to go ahead and modify it and submit that as a separate model, I would welcome having multiple variations available for download.

Eh, I dunno... By that definition, a lot of models that "work" (technically) could be approved, but would not truly be much of a departure (creatively) from what we already have.

I guess it's just a little off-putting to consider the Undead Slaughterhouse being tacked on top of a retextured Nerubian Ziggurat, and calling it a day. Granted, there's a bit more than that going on, but while it has its differences, it's ultimately nearly identical in silhouette (which is one of the most important considerations for in-game use), IMO.

Those suggestions were just things to differentiate it; creatively, yes. Technically, as you said, it's perfectly fine. But I'm not sure "perfectly fine Technically" was the only criteria for models being accepted.

 

[Darkloid]

the forsaken have plenty of abominations i think the concept is fine

They are made on the apothecarium not in an slaughterhouse.

Perhaps retexturing an Arcane Sanctum or a crypt would fit better, also add some potions and stuff like that.

 

[Hawkwing]

My opinion is mostly based around the fact that I'm scared that any changes will make this not be identifiable as a slaughterhouse and as a result become less useful to me.

I guess it's just a little off-putting to consider the Undead Slaughterhouse being tacked on top of a retextured Nerubian Ziggurat, and calling it a day. Granted, there's a bit more than that going on, but while it has its differences, it's ultimately nearly identical in silhouette (which is one of the most important considerations for in-game use), IMO.

I agree about the importance of the silhouette. When I first saw the screenshot what I noticed was the base of the model, which has a slightly different shape. The original has a more or less pentagonal base and this one is rectangular. Yes, that rectangular shape is just the nerubian ziggurat thrown underneath (as you acknowledged), but I feel the texture change makes it appear unique enough.

Eh, I dunno... By that definition, a lot of models that "work" (technically) could be approved, but would not truly be much of a departure (creatively) from what we already have.

...

Those suggestions were just things to differentiate it; creatively, yes. Technically, as you said, it's perfectly fine. But I'm not sure "perfectly fine Technically" was the only criteria for models being accepted.

I think it's a shame to discard the current appearance of this model (which may have use to some people and not others) in favour of an appearance that would be useful to others, but not to those who it currently appeals to. And yeah, there are models that are lazy and lack in quality but as long as they're useful and the textures and shapes are appropriate for the idea that the artist is trying to convey, I feel it should be approved. A moderator's criticism should be welcome, but their artistic/creative opinion shouldn't determine whether or not its approved, only the resource's usefulness/functionality. This is not how the submission rules are currently set up, but that's how I feel they should be.

To summarize, I like the appearance of this model. I think it's unique enough. Is this debatable? For sure, but my opinion is that it at least meets the requirements. If it were changed in some of the recommended ways, it wouldn't be useful to me anymore. I would welcome an additional submission of a variation of this model so that those who feel it should be changed and those who don't are both satisfied, but a functional, useful model doesn't need to be rejected.

Again, just my opinion. I'm getting a bit too defensive. Love you all. <3

 

[takakenji]

i find it amazing the best looking of his forsaken models gets so much fire when a fucking druid den plastered onto a frost wyrm boneyard gets none http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/forsaken-arcane-den-243758/ and someone calls it "creative"

if you ask me this is creative, as it is taking an already existing concept and transforming it to match another race. and really i have no idea where this circulating idea of "slaughterhouses are a scourge thing" is even coming from, when forsaken are just as famous if not more for their production of abominations

 

[Genngreymane]

Why this use human animation

 

[Hawkwing]

The usefulness of having the human construction art in place of the undead art is of course going to vary depending on the setup of the map it is being used in, but as far as I've seen, the Forsaken don't use acolytes/cultists to summon their structures. I would assume they would share construction methods with the humans they once were.

 

[infrenus]

Guys... did you checked it now? still has some problens as I see on the anymation, but it looks like a crazy park thingie now.

 

[Darkloid]

i find it amazing the best looking of his forsaken models gets so much fire when a fucking druid den plastered onto a frost wyrm boneyard gets none http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/forsaken-arcane-den-243758/ and someone calls it "creative"

if you ask me this is creative, as it is taking an already existing concept and transforming it to match another race. and really i have no idea where this circulating idea of "slaughterhouses are a scourge thing" is even coming from, when forsaken are just as famous if not more for their production of abominations

Again, Forsaken Abominations are either captured and reprogrammed to work for the Banshee Queen or made in the Apothecariums, laboratories, not slaughterhouses, those are unique of the Scourge. I don't like that concept either but at least is not a lorelol.

 

[Xonok]

Lore doesn't matter that much for usefulness though.
If someone wants to have forsaken slaughterhouses, then let them.

 

[takakenji]

Again, Forsaken Abominations are either captured and reprogrammed to work for the Banshee Queen or made in the Apothecariums, laboratories, not slaughterhouses, those are unique of the Scourge. I don't like that concept either but at least is not a lorelol.

its not a lore lol? where in lore do forsaken train their spellcasters from some structure with a wierd and oddly night elven roof with three floating obelisks around it

 

[Hawkwing]

Guys... did you checked it now? still has some problens as I see on the anymation, but it looks like a crazy park thingie now.

Yes, I much preferred it before. It reminds me of an amusement park ride now. I believe someone (I'm guessing Misha, since I can't find the comment anymore) suggested placing some potions or vials on the wheel. I think that would be more appropriate. Now that this has been approved, however, I don't anticipate any changes.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Looking definitely more... Interesting. Well, I can't lie, it's creative. Yeah, definitely looks like a double-Ferris Wheel or something... I think I meant only 1 wheel, but this is an interesting step. Gratzi.

and really i have no idea where this circulating idea of "slaughterhouses are a scourge thing" is even coming from, when forsaken are just as famous if not more for their production of abominations

Again, Forsaken Abominations are either captured and reprogrammed to work for the Banshee Queen or made in the Apothecariums, laboratories, not slaughterhouses, those are unique of the Scourge. I don't like that concept either but at least is not a lorelol.

the forsaken have plenty of abominations i think the concept is fine

Lore doesn't matter that much for usefulness though.
If someone wants to have forsaken slaughterhouses, then let them.

This issue depends on two big points of contention: "In what way 'your' Forsaken are to be used in comparison to the regular Undead", and "How much you accept of WoW's portrayal of the Forsaken".

For me, the response to the former is "May be replacing them ideologically, but should be different enough from them in all other ways". It may be the "stock Undead enemy" in my campaign, for instance, but I want them to be distinguishable from the Scourge (in Base, in Army, in Heroes, etc).

Also for me, (and I might draw fire here), the response to the latter is a big "Pretty much none of it". I'm not a big fan of WoW's annihilation of the Wc3 Storyline, and a lot of the things they've done to transition the game from an RTS to an (MMO)RPG have changed a lot of how the game looks, how the factions are represented, etc.

Case in point, there will/would be no Bats in my build of the Forsaken. Don't get me wrong; Bats are awexome. Bats are cool. But bats have a place, and that place is TROLLS.

Along those lines, I would argue that, just like in the TFT Undead campaign, the Forsaken under Sylvanas, while being a derivative & a break-away from the Scourge, did not have access to the entirety of the tech-tree. Further, in my (eventual) build of the Forsaken, I would more strongly differentiate what they are capable of from the Scourge (I feel Blizzard would've done the same, but teaching players how to use an radically-modified Undead tech-tree (not to mention designing it) was a bit more than they had time/motivation for (which is a real shame, since that's part of what made TFT so cool & unique; instead of using regular Humans, they forced us to branch out by removing some of the core units (dwarves & knights). But then they replaced them with new exp. units & specialty Campaign units (B.Elves). Why didn't they do that with the Forsaken (removed Aboms & Necromancers, gave us new exp. units... But where's our super-Ghosts or whatever? ) //EDIT 20161021// - I'm aware it's been 3 years, but I realized I was wrong & ought to correct it... They totally did the same for the Forsaken; they removed some of the 'classic' Scourge units (Necromancers, Abominations, Crypt Fiends) & left us with some new toys (Obsidian Statutes & Destroyers, primarily). I might've wished for more (Blood Elves got a bunch more), but still.

I could go on, but I'll try not to ramble. Basically, Abominations to me are a big emblem of the Scourge; giant frankensteinien (lol spelling) shambling hulks made of various corpses and reanimated with necromancy. Most of that stuff the Forsaken just don't have (I mean, didn't they not have a way to progenerate more Forsaken until the whole "valk'yr" thing in WoW recently?), so in mine, they wouldn't.

TL;DR - People can make/have models of whatever they want. However, I (along with many others) do not feel that WoW is a good standard for what should be in the Forsaken.

@takakenji:

i find it amazing the best looking of his forsaken models gets so much fire when a fucking druid den plastered onto a frost wyrm boneyard gets none http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/forsaken-arcane-den-243758/ and someone calls it "creative"

if you ask me this is creative, as it is taking an already existing concept and transforming it to match another race.

Um, I'm pretty sure that was me calling it "creative"... And I still stand by that. Both have been re-textured, so I won't consider that in my comparison. Thus we compare the two: one is simply the Slaughterhouse (see this a lot) put on top of a... Nerubian Ziggurat. The other is the Boneyard (not often used), with a modified NE building on top (creative mix of races' architecture).

It comes down to that for me. The Slaughterhouse has such a distinctive profile, and this doesn't change it very much. Nearly indistinguishable in-game (until you look at the base (which has a strangely-different architectural style)). The other has a little-used (I think; to be honest, I can't recall where that NE Druid Den is from. Is that one of the hidden/beta models, or is it just a Campaign model? Honest question.) model put onto the other, in a way which I don't usually see (modified Slaughterhouses are common; modified Boneyards, from what I've seen, are not.)

its not a lore lol? where in lore do forsaken train their spellcasters from some structure with a wierd and oddly night elven roof with three floating obelisks around it

As stated above, I agree; ever since Ujimasa started pumping out the Forsaken buildings, I have been somewhat at odds with both the texture choice (big, dull & blaring Purple! Not sure how that looks for Purple or Gray TC...) and the strange architecture (NE's curvy wooden beams & roofs). However, in terms of being the "Forsaken Caster Barracks"... Why not? Just as good as any other Caster Barracks. Heck, the Human's CB is a weird little building with a whole mess of spinning balls on top. Looks nifty & magical. This has big floating chained obelisks, with spirits that fly between them. Similarly magical, IMO.

@Hawkwing:

I believe someone (I'm guessing Misha, since I can't find the comment anymore) suggested placing some potions or vials on the wheel. I think that would be more appropriate. Now that this has been approved, however, I don't anticipate any changes.

Actually, I believe that was me.

And don't say that! Give up hope, and what have you got left?

My opinion is mostly based around the fact that I'm scared that any changes will make this not be identifiable as a slaughterhouse and as a result become less useful to me.

As a fellow modder, I can agree (and I'm surprised you've said it out loud; I always feel like it's guilty to think that way. ). I'm always looking for things to become more useful to me. However, even if he does has change changed it, he's sure to have the original that you liked; he'll probably have no problem sending you a copy. : )

I agree about the importance of the silhouette. When I first saw the screenshot what I noticed was the base of the model, which has a slightly different shape. The original has a more or less pentagonal base and this one is rectangular. Yes, that rectangular shape is just the nerubian ziggurat thrown underneath (as you acknowledged), but I feel the texture change makes it appear unique enough.

Hm, I suppose. Might just have to agree to disagree, for the reasons stated above.

I think it's a shame to discard the current appearance of this model (which may have use to some people and not others) in favour of an appearance that would be useful to others, but not to those who it currently appeals to. And yeah, there are models that are lazy and lack in quality but as long as they're useful and the textures and shapes are appropriate for the idea that the artist is trying to convey, I feel it should be approved. A moderator's criticism should be welcome, but their artistic/creative opinion shouldn't determine whether or not its approved, only the resource's usefulness/functionality. This is not how the submission rules are currently set up, but that's how I feel they should be.

To summarize, I like the appearance of this model. I think it's unique enough. Is this debatable? For sure, but my opinion is that it at least meets the requirements. If it were changed in some of the recommended ways, it wouldn't be useful to me anymore. I would welcome an additional submission of a variation of this model so that those who feel it should be changed and those who don't are both satisfied, but a functional, useful model doesn't need to be rejected.

Again, just my opinion. I'm getting a bit too defensive. Love you all. <3

I suppose I've seen worse (i.e. things that are even less creative or differentiated from their original form). For example, while I disregarded the re-texturing in my discussion with takakenji above for the purposes of our discussion, one wouldn't do that for an overall consideration of the model; and, as usual, Ujimasa delivers. He's definitely got a good eye for detail, and a keen hand for re-wrapping. That alone probably gives it the bump it needs.

I might argue that "if it's not different enough (which, as you say, is debatable), it shouldn't be uploaded", but let's be honest, this is THW. For better or for worse, this place has a well-earned reputation for accepting the majority of models. This atmosphere is precisely why a lot of decent/good models, which wouldn't be accepted at places with higher standards (*cough* my beloved Wc3C... *takes off hat*), have a place here (which is good, I think).

So yeah. I think we agree more than we disagree. But mainly, nothing's stopping you or him from uploading multiple versions with minor fixes & changes. Or a pack. Or a separate thread somewhere. Or a Pastebin for you/anyone else.

The usefulness of having the human construction art in place of the undead art is of course going to vary depending on the setup of the map it is being used in, but as far as I've seen, the Forsaken don't use acolytes/cultists to summon their structures. I would assume they would share construction methods with the humans they once were.

True, and this follows my discussion above (big mega-quote set). In terms of how I see Forsaken, I think we agree fully; they don't have "the Cult of the Damned" as part of their organization, so why would they have it's Cultists? So Acolytes, Necromancers & Shades are gone. But more importantly, Undead/Acolyte building-summoning should be replaced as well.
And as has been stated, many feel a mix between the Human (where many of the Forsaken are originally from) and Undead (where they most recently came from) is a good mix. Human-ish architecture, with Undead inspirations. Undead buildings, with a Human-twist.

*high-five*

 

[Hawkwing]

Looking definitely more... Interesting. Well, I can't lie, it's creative. Yeah, definitely looks like a double-Ferris Wheel or something... I think I meant only 1 wheel, but this is an interesting step. Gratzi.

...

I commend you for taking the time to write all that out. I can't write too much without convincing myself that what I've written makes no sense and so I just end up reading over everything repeatedly. Eventually I often decide not to bother posting at all.

Actually, I believe that was me.

And don't say that! Giving up hope, and what have you got left?

Oh, sorry! I just skimmed over the previous posts quickly, guess I missed that one. As for my lack of confidence in believing that this will be updated, from my own personal experiences I find I am more receptive to constructive criticism rather than people arguing about their personal opinions. If Ujimasa is anything like me, he probably would be a bit frustrated at this point and leave his work in a state where at least the moderators are satisfied.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I commend you for taking the time to write all that out. I can't write too much without convincing myself that what I've written makes no sense and so I just end up reading over everything repeatedly. Eventually I often decide not to bother posting at all.

Well thanks. Honestly, sometimes I wonder if I should spend as much time as I do (answer: NO) on such things, but I felt remiss letting all the contention lie without putting in my two bits.

Oh, sorry! I just skimmed over the previous posts quickly, guess I missed that one. As for my lack of confidence in believing that this will be updated, from my own personal experiences I find I am more receptive to constructive criticism rather than people arguing about their personal opinions. If Ujimasa is anything like me, he probably would be a bit frustrated at this point and leave his work in a state where at least the moderators are satisfied.

No offense taken. : )

I, too, find that many modelers have the unfortunate habit of not updating their works (either due to requests or to fix things up or add functionality) after having been Approved. However, this is not always the case, so I was trying to be positive. However however, my experience with this modeler in particular (Ujimasa) is as aforementioned; he infrequently takes constructive criticism in hand & changes his models around. Quite often he'll just leave it as is. Case in point, have you seen any major changes to any of his other Forsaken stuff? Or heck, even a post from him in his own thread? Yet I've been on nearly every one with (what I hope was received as) constructive critique, as well as others.

C'est la vie.

 

[Misha]

tris looks trippy now

 

[Go'el]

It's just a building, if someone does not like the name just change the name in the 'world editor', and the Forsaken has many abominations that are 'built' in Apothecarium that is in the Undercity. And NOBODY ever said that Slaughterhouse is only a Scourge thing.

 

[Kyrbi0]

It's just a building, if someone does not like the name just change the name in the 'world editor', and the Forsaken has many abominations that are 'built' in Apothecarium that is in the Undercity. And NOBODY ever said that Slaughterhouse is only a Scourge thing.

Umm...

Also for me, (and I might draw fire here), the response to the latter is a big "Pretty much none of it". I'm not a big fan of WoW's annihilation of the Wc3 Storyline, and a lot of the things they've done to transition the game from an RTS to an (MMO)RPG have changed a lot of how the game looks, how the factions are represented, etc.

Case in point, there will/would be no Bats in my build of the Forsaken. Don't get me wrong; Bats are awexome. Bats are cool. But Bats have a place, and that place is TROLLS.

blah blah blah

I could go on, but I'll try not to ramble. Basically, Abominations to me are a big emblem of the Scourge; giant frankensteinien (lol spelling) shambling hulks made of various corpses and reanimated with necromancy. Most of that stuff the Forsaken just don't have (I mean, didn't they not have a way to progenerate more Forsaken until the whole "valk'yr" thing in WoW recently?), so in mine, they wouldn't.

TL;DR - People can make/have models of whatever they want. However, I (along with many others) do not feel that WoW is a good standard for what should be in the Forsaken.

I believe I said that exact thing here, actually... Now whether you agree with me or not, that's another thing.

 

[Blizzard]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa! good job

 

[Yoga WP]

I love this derivative !!

 

[master Gul'dan]

Cool.

 

[Ujimasa Hojo]

Please put all replies in my Resources Discussions instead.