SC2 units rank up ?

[PurplePoot]

Veterancy isn't that huge a deal.

If it's basically insignificant, it's pointless anyways.

A small upgrade to provide more realism into gameplay.

Because of course, giant spaceships, aliens, and psionic weapons are really realistic. (as far as we know... )

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

If it's basically insignificant, it's pointless anyways.

Because of course, giant spaceships, aliens, and psionic weapons are really realistic. (as far as we know... )

You DO know the difference between science fiction and fantasy, right? Science!

 

[PurplePoot]

Science... with beings that can cast magical lightning storms? >_>

I'd call SC SciFi-Fantasy.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Psionic energy is energy of the mind. The main idea of creating a fictional story is using fictional ideas, but having logic behind them. Throw away some common sense, but keep everything else. In doing so, you create realism without being real, therefore making your universe easier to understand. Characters don't just die and come back to life without proper reasoning, etc. Veterancy is just another one of these things. To say SC is "SciFi-Fantasy" is to call most every other bit of scifi the same.

 

[Massive_attack]

Exactly, one might say "Warping through space is impossible" (for the protoss warp technology)

So what? It has some logic and general ideas about it, we may not be able to do it but imagination allows us too.

The same thing can be said about hundreds of things in the SC universe, it all has logic or story behind it.

Science fiction doesnt need to be Science fact, only fiction supported by theorys and logic.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[LordDz]

Exactly, one might say "Warping through space is impossible" (for the protoss warp technology)

So what? It has some logic and general ideas about it, we may not be able to do it but imagination allows us too.

The same thing can be said about hundreds of things in the SC universe, it all has logic or story behind it.

Science fiction doesnt need to be Science fact, only fiction supported by theorys and logic.

Just my 2 cents.

Add Zerg Nydus Canal there. Or is raynor a hell of a runner when I move him through it ?

 

[PurplePoot]

Then I could start calling Fantasy pure Fiction. Magic is generally considered fantasy ><

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Then I could start calling Fantasy pure Fiction. Magic is generally considered fantasy ><

We didn't say that. Fantasy has its own set of logic that can and cannot utilize common knowledge. It does this, however, more loosely.

 

[PurplePoot]

Most sci-fi doesn't involve magic, I stand by that -.-

Even so, by you saying that you're throwing away realism, aren't you further proving my point that due to the fact that the game isn't realistic, isn't it silly to assume that certain things will 100% adhere to what we believe as the rules of reality?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Most sci-fi doesn't involve magic, I stand by that -.-

Even so, by you saying that you're throwing away realism, aren't you further proving my point that due to the fact that the game isn't realistic, isn't it silly to assume that certain things will 100% adhere to what we believe as the rules of reality?

To begin with, most of the time in sci fi, it often involves magic, it just involves a source of energy that is not just blatantly stated as magic. Psionic energy is the energy of the mind, plasma an extremely hot gas created by nuclear fusion, etc. Not always, but often.

No, I am not proving your point, you are missing mine. Common sense is provided where the fiction cannot. The humans in starcraft do not have purple skin. They have the same color of flesh as the rest of us. Do you know why? Realism. Yeah, that's right. It's not just some cheesy attempt at ripping off a nonfiction race. The marines have the private rank, just like how in our military, private is the lowest rank. Realism! We create fictional ideas and see how REAL things would happen should such events occur. In doing so, you create fiction. A story that makes no sense is not fun at all. They make stories that make sense to us, and stories we can relate to. That's where realism comes into play. TADAH! Let's say they HAVE magic, like the humans of warcraft. They still have realistic personalities (for the most part), and they do things that humans do. People die when they are killed, etc.

 

[PurplePoot]

I have to note that I still don't agree with you on the whole realism thing, but I doubt we'll ever come to terms on that, so moving on --

Even if a marine SHOULD gain experience on the battlefield, what would he do? Fire his... automatic weapon faster? Somehow absorb more damage into his armor? Units in SC already hit 100%, so it's not like better aim is an option -.-

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

His weapon gets more damage due to better aim. He gets more life/evades better due to more experience of dodging attacks and such. That CAN be all, but perhaps the abilities they use are more efficient, or a larger sight range.

 

[PurplePoot]

Aim; 100% anyways? It's not like you can put very much aim after awhile of firing an automatic weapon anyways, as far as I know.

Life; how are they supposed to dodge attacks from super fast/strong blades/bullets in THAT armor?

Looking from a more gameplay-based perspective; what in the world will this do to balance? A few marines wiping out squads of marines/zerglings just because it scored a few more hits? Even if the other guy only had 25% more, that's still a little... yeah. Can you say snowball?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Aim; 100% anyways? It's not like you can put very much aim after awhile of firing an automatic weapon anyways, as far as I know.

Life; how are they supposed to dodge attacks from super fast/strong blades/bullets in THAT armor?

Looking from a more gameplay-based perspective; what in the world will this do to balance? A few marines wiping out squads of marines/zerglings just because it scored a few more hits? Even if the other guy only had 25% more, that's still a little... yeah. Can you say snowball?

Aim, they could make normal units miss more often, and experience does make for better aim. Why don't you ask blizzard how stimulating drugs fires weapons faster?

Life, experience can help dodge attacks, yes.

Balance, when you upgrade a unit once, does that make it so a few marines takes out armies of zerglings? Also, snowball as in what? Veterancy always has a limit of around 2.

 

[Massive_attack]

Or, for aiming, have the marine learn WHERE to shoot to cause "massive damage" (PS3 joke) essentialy, learn a targets weakpoints. But that all happens in your head, in the game were looking at better armour better hp MAYBE a evasion ability similar to wc3's and maybe a critical hit ability (that hopefully wont be as rigged as the Wc3 version.

But thats all up in the air, vets could have been removed from the current version, we honestly have no idea.

Also: maybe they aquire new armour or upgraded armour after leveling up, you know to keep theyre best soldiers alive, or whatever.

 

[benx_x]

Or possibly just get a better gun when rank up : P.

 

[PurplePoot]

Why don't you ask blizzard how stimulating drugs fires weapons faster?

It's funny how you're returning back to the realism stream in the sense that you use the argument of experience being realistic, and then of starcraft not being so, supporting the same side.

Life, experience can help dodge attacks, yes.

You didn't answer my question >_>

Also, good luck dodging those siege tank shells, or banshee cluster bombs... adding life just wouldn't make sense relating to the varied types of attacks in starcraft.

Aim, they could make normal units miss more often, and experience does make for better aim.

Weaken the rest of the units to add this system? Blarg, that would (imo) suck.

Balance, when you upgrade a unit once, does that make it so a few marines takes out armies of zerglings? Also, snowball as in what? Veterancy always has a limit of around 2.

From the impressions of veterancy references in other games (described in this thread), I gathered veterancy was quite strong. (For example, I saw somewhere (here or battle.net, not sure which) that in RA Veterancy can cause a single unit to be able to take out a squad)

As to snowballing, the more experienced units help the other units level, until you get an experienced army of d00m.

 

[Just_Spectating]

i would say that as the units "rank up" from surviving, they would learn more about weakpoints (dmg) and survival of wounds (hp)

 

[PurplePoot]

i would say that as the units "rank up" from surviving, they would learn more about weakpoints (dmg) and survival of wounds (hp)

I'm sorry, but for the most part I don't see how you can learn how to take it a bit lighter when you get your head sliced off by a zergling, or if you get blown to bits by a Siege Tank -.-

Beside the point, though, why do you people keep trying to associate veterancy with starcraft with realism as a reason to use veterancy, when it (starcraft) is not realistic, and you say so yourselves?

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Beside the point, though, why do you people keep trying to associate veterancy with starcraft with realism as a reason to use veterancy, when it (starcraft) is not realistic, and you say so yourselves?

Because it, like every other fictional work ever made (give or take a few shitty ones), is meant to be as realistic as possible with everything except the fictional circumstances.

 

[PurplePoot]

...and yet have things like the Stim Packs that you mentioned? (if you stretch reality that far, it becomes a silly argument to say you should still uphold it in xxx place)

About the only realistic bits of SC are that

-There are humans
-They come from earth

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

...and yet have things like the Stim Packs that you mentioned? (if you stretch reality that far, it becomes a silly argument to say you should still uphold it in xxx place)

About the only realistic bits of SC are that

-There are humans
-They come from earth

Minus English, mortality, gravity, stars, etc., right?

 

[Massive_attack]

We know also that there is DNA, and that it can be changed via evoloution, therefore the changing of ones DNA (ala zerg) is feasible.

As for the protoss, thats where realisism is um, harder to find, we know that we can manipulate energy (perhaps not with our minds but still) so that sort-of covers theyre energy weapons, but still, the protoss are the most unrealistic race by far, if you have a beef with SC realisim, pick on the 'toss.

So, im on the fence with this one, the terrans side makes sense science-wise, the zerg sort of do too (the evoloution thing) but protoss? no, they stretch it a bit far.

 

[PurplePoot]

Blarg, forgot about english. (well, humans sort of come with english though, I'd say)

"Humans: All-Inclusive"

But generally everything in the sense of "stars, gravity,etc" is taken for given in the world of about everything ever, so I felt that was a given. (I mean, have you ever read a book in which there aren't planet(s), stars, space (even if the character doesn't go there), gravity, mortality (except the bible on this last one, apparently )?)

And the zerg are based off a weird larva (called a Zerg) adapted by really weird aliens to take over other beings. Not particulairily world-like, really ><. They may manipulate DNA, but there's alot more weird stuff than that.

Protoss... that's what I'm talking about with magic and such ;p

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Blarg, forgot about english. (well, humans sort of come with english though, I'd say)

"Humans: All-Inclusive"

But generally everything in the sense of "stars, gravity,etc" is taken for given in the world of about everything ever, so I felt that was a given. (I mean, have you ever read a book in which there aren't planet(s), stars, space (even if the character doesn't go there), gravity, mortality (except the bible on this last one, apparently )?)

And the zerg are based off a weird larva (called a Zerg) adapted by really weird aliens to take over other beings. Not particulairily world-like, really ><. They may manipulate DNA, but there's alot more weird stuff than that.

Protoss... that's what I'm talking about with magic and such ;p

What you call a "given" is still realism. It's just a more basic element of it.

 

[Massive_attack]

Look were not saying SC2 is exactly like real life, or has the exact laws of real life (physics ect) we are saying it simulates it in a way that can be A: believed and B: understandable.

So, as an extension of that, veterancy is believeable (otherwise soldiers would never become elites, tank aces, veteran pilots ect) and also understandable (people learn, so do soldiers, soldiers learn to be better at killing stuff, makes sense to me).

Thats just my opinion though, what do you guys think ?

 

[Just_Spectating]

its a game, the longer they survive the better they get, its kind of legit like that if you dont put consideration to realism.

 

[Massive_attack]

I suppose, but ranking up does admittably, make sense (Field promotions happen in real wars too, and we dont call men "veterans" for nothing).

 

[PurplePoot]

On the other hand, consider how much it changes the gameplay, and how controversial an issue it is. Let aside all the realism stuff (which you guys yourself brought up), I still don't think the idea is feasible.

If you want units ranking and lasting longer, a game like Wc3 is generally a better choice, since it's all about microing your units so they live forever, and having units that do level up. StarCraft is one thing, WarCraft is another, and I personally don't think that the gameplay style of StarCraft makes sense to include that kind of thing; it's probably best left to games involving smaller armies.

Also, for 99% of the units it wouldn't make sense anyways. Even if the ghosts and marines got better aim (and reapers?), how do you account for everything else?

-The zerg are controlled by Cerebrates who have been fighting for ages... we'd have to massively imbalance them under these rules, yes?

-The protoss can communicate telepathically, so a lot of what you guys're saying troops would have to memorize (weak points, etc) wouldn't matter to them

-The terran's machines would almost definitely have auto-targeting computers at this point in time.

 

[Just_Spectating]

you are putting back realism. and if a person was in war longer than another and more experienced, of course he would have advantages to win over a person who is new. also starcraft is more unit micro than warcraft. warcraft is just hero micro less than unit micro

 

[PurplePoot]

you are putting back realism. and if a person was in war longer than another and more experienced, of course he would have advantages to win over a person who is new.

Erm, did you read anything that I just said?

also starcraft is more unit micro than warcraft.

I lol'd...

Only the progamers do that much micro in StarCraft - almost everyone does in warcraft. Sure, in starcraft you do a bit, but there's a lot more swarming and macro that people have to cope with.

warcraft is just hero micro less than unit micro

It seems that most people who play wc melee (on the battle.net forums, anyways...) disagree with you.

 

[Just_Spectating]

do you play sc?

 

[PurplePoot]

Yes, I do. However, from what I hear from people who play both, Wc3 has a lot more micro. I personally find myself not having to micro TOO much to do fairly well. Of course, I could micro more, but there's not the same emphasis that wc3 has.

 

[Massive_attack]

Wc3 has more micro.

Sc2 is all about macro.

EXCEPT IN KOREA.

Case closed (i hope)

Edit: for zerg:
Do the celebrates tell the zerg what attacks to do, how fast, what claws to use ? NO. Overlords do that. So therefore the OVERLORDS rank up.

Edit: For toss:
If every zealot knew every weakness in every type of armour everywhere why cant they 1 hit kill shit like thors ect.

 

[PurplePoot]

Overlords are commanded by Cerebrates, though, so they would have their knowledge. Just as the cerebrates are commanded by the overmind.

If every zealot knew every weakness in every type of armour everywhere why cant they 1 hit kill shit like thors ect.

A weakness does not make it a 1-shot kill regardless. It would just make it more effective (kind've like attack types!)

And also, there's a think called balance. Otherwise, BCs would 1-shot any infantry plus most other ground (not including buildings)

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

On the other hand, consider how much it changes the gameplay, and how controversial an issue it is. Let aside all the realism stuff (which you guys yourself brought up), I still don't think the idea is feasible.

If you want units ranking and lasting longer, a game like Wc3 is generally a better choice, since it's all about microing your units so they live forever, and having units that do level up. StarCraft is one thing, WarCraft is another, and I personally don't think that the gameplay style of StarCraft makes sense to include that kind of thing; it's probably best left to games involving smaller armies.

Also, for 99% of the units it wouldn't make sense anyways. Even if the ghosts and marines got better aim (and reapers?), how do you account for everything else?

-The zerg are controlled by Cerebrates who have been fighting for ages... we'd have to massively imbalance them under these rules, yes?

-The protoss can communicate telepathically, so a lot of what you guys're saying troops would have to memorize (weak points, etc) wouldn't matter to them

-The terran's machines would almost definitely have auto-targeting computers at this point in time.

Who said all units had to get veterancy? Hell, it could stay realistic as an infantry specific thing. It can stay realistic as a terran specific thing. It's a mere possibility.

 

[PurplePoot]

What I'm saying is that if you incorporate it at all, you have to take it to the extremes with Zerg and Protoss, if you want your 'realism' or whatever.

It may be interesting as a marine/reaper/ghost thing, maybe...

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

What I'm saying is that if you incorporate it at all, you have to take it to the extremes with Zerg and Protoss, if you want your 'realism' or whatever.

It may be interesting as a marine/reaper/ghost thing, maybe...

Hell, it could stay realistic as an infantry specific thing. It can stay realistic as a terran specific thing.

There's no "taking it to the extremes" to it.

 

[PurplePoot]

I was talking about if it was realistic, it would go with all the races, and the other two would have innate huge bonuses. Just drop the realism, get a good system for infantry, and it may be decent.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

I was talking about if it was realistic, it would go with all the races, and the other two would have innate huge bonuses. Just drop the realism, get a good system for infantry, and it may be decent.

Also, for 99% of the units it wouldn't make sense anyways. Even if the ghosts and marines got better aim (and reapers?), how do you account for everything else?

-The zerg are controlled by Cerebrates who have been fighting for ages... we'd have to massively imbalance them under these rules, yes?

-The protoss can communicate telepathically, so a lot of what you guys're saying troops would have to memorize (weak points, etc) wouldn't matter to them

-The terran's machines would almost definitely have auto-targeting computers at this point in time.

You said it wouldn't make sense with the other races, then you say to be realistic, it has to be with the other races. Why is it so? Why does other races having veterancy affect realism positively, then negatively?

 

[PurplePoot]

No, no, no, what I'm trying to say is;

If you want to be realistic, you have a form of veterancy, yes.

But however, all three races in starcraft would benefeit at different levels, imbalancing the game should you approach it in a realistic perspective.

So just forget about the realism, and approach it from an unrealistic perspective with (terran? (or more...?)) infantry only. If it was well balanced, you never know, it may work (especially with medics)

 

[Massive_attack]

purple poot, celebrates tell zerg what and where to kill.
Overlords tell the zerg HOW to kill it, what limbs to use, how to avoid death ect.
The Overmind tells the celebrates what to do strategically, who gets to attack where, where to move the swarm, what the swarm is to do next, ect.

I would immediately hate the zerg if the overmind told a zergling what limbs it uses to kill a marine, it would ruin the zergs awesome "chain of command" Thats why Zasz's brood was able to go rogue when Zeratul did that weird thing with the overmind in SC1, shattering its connection with Zasz or something like that...

In modern terms: The overminds the president, the joint chiefs, and the senate, it is the entire ruling body of the zerg. The celebrates are the zerg's Generals, ordering unit formations to move and engage specific targets. Overlord's are anything from lieutenants to sergeants, ordering "squads" of zerg SPECIFICALY where to engage, what tactics to use, how to use them, where and when to use special weapons.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

[OFFTOPIC]

celebrates

w00p w00p![/OFFTOPIC]

 

[Massive_attack]

i must have spelled that wrong somehow, my bad.

 

[PurplePoot]

I know, but the overlords would've previously learned from the cerebrates (while mutating or something), and the cerebrates from the overmind, yes?

Would make sense to me, anyways.

 

[Massive_attack]

That is true PurplePoot, but think of it more like military school, while you know the basics, most of the advanced tactics ect come from age and experience.

In this way, the zerg overlords know how to say properly command, just not command well when they are first birthed. Plus, in the heat of battle, celebrates can not often give percise instructions to overlords on how to command the swarms effectively, but yeah, they would know SOME stuff as soon as theyre birthed, otherwise they couldnt command properly.

 

[LordDz]

What I wonder the most is:

How much IQ does a normal Zergling and the cerebrates/Overmind have?

 

[PurplePoot]

Another party, massive? (celebrates)

Normal ling = basically none

Cerebrate/Overmind = A lot

 

[Massive_attack]

Oh shit, so thats why MySpaceBarBroke made fun of me. shit. rofl how do i spell it then ? O btw: i agree with PurplePoots above post.

 

[PurplePoot]

Cerebrate