Quality of hosted projects

[Chaosy]

Conversation removed from the news thread:
Hosted Projects: World Domination and Warden

I'm disappointed.

Hosted Projects has officially lost its value for me now.
It has been my belief that hosted project were 5/5, and at least borderline directors cut.
But these two do not look like DC material to me. A shame.

Of course I may be wrong and they might end up getting a DC, but hey, my opinion.[/box

 

[Chaosy]

I am saying that I don't think they are worthy of being hosted.
Not that they are bad maps.

I just want the best of the best to get hosted. Warden got rated 4/5 which is top 30% perhaps?

 

[deepstrasz]

I'm disappointed.

Hosted Projects has officially lost value for me now.

It seemed random to me. There are so many awesome projects not mentioned there.

Warden got rated 4/5 which is top 30% perhaps?

And you want it to be 5/5? Good luck finding a 5/5 and more than that on an actually innovative project like Rufus' Warden for instance.

 

[Chaosy]

And you want it to be 5/5? Good luck finding a 5/5 and more than that on an actually innovative project like Rufus' Warden for instance.

Is that wrong?
I mean fuck trying to find the really great projects, am I right?

edit: Here you go God's Word: The True Way

If I recall this project won the monthly spotlight quite a few times when that was a thing.
And the author did comment somewhat recently, so it's alive.

 

[deepstrasz]

Active projects?
Name me a few.

Oh, it's like that, huh? The Chosen Ones doesn't seem really active to me. The last update was on the 15th of February 2015 and very rarely does its creator, Aeroblyctos, respond to bug reports/stuff. Soul Reaver's To the Bitter End is active in that regard.

mean fuck trying to find the really great projects, am I right?

I like your kiddish view. You think there is such a thing that everyone will rate 5/5? Think again. Perfection is an illusion especially when we see things differently.
Also, exemplify, please.

edit: Here you go

Does that get your and everyone else's 5/5?

Also there's a weird thing with what's in the Archive and in the Completed. I mean how do you even decide if it's complete or not since anything could eventually be updated?

 

[Chaosy]

I never mentioned it being perfect.
But there are things that are better than others.

I may not absolutely love games like CS:GO.
But I do know a lot of people love it and spend soooo much money on it.

So, we can safely conclude that a whole lot of people like CS:GO. (just look a copies sold and how huge the espots scene surrounding it is)
Which would probably give it a high rating, NEWSFLASH.

I am certain there are a few young girls that adore "My Little Pony Adventures: Rainbow" (made up title, it probably doesn't exist) but they are probably fewer, thus a worse game overall. Which is why you wont see it on any of the top charts.

edit:

Does that get your and everyone else's 5/5?

Everyones? no. There is not a single game that is loved by everyone. So it's a stupid question.
But seeing how many loved it back then, I would say it's a damn good candidate.

 

[deepstrasz]

So, we can safely conclude that a whole lot of people like CS:GO. (just look a copies sold and how huge the espots scene surrounding it is)
Which would probably give it a high rating, NEWSFLASH.

You're circle jerking. It's supposed to get a 5/5 from everybody, not some PC magazines and mindless consumers. At least that's what you wrote:

I mean fuck trying to find the really great projects, am I right?

and I don't understand how you would give that as an example when you don't really like CS:GO that much. That doesn't mean you give it a 5/5.
We can't conclude anything safely when opinion differ. Masses spending money has little to do with quality.

I am certain there are a few young girls that adore "My Little Pony Adventures: Rainbow" (made up title, it probably doesn't exist) but they are probably fewer, thus a worse game overall.

This is a flawed argument. You just don't consider something to be of quality because most people like it.

 

[deepstrasz]

Everyones? no. There is not a single game that is loved by everyone. So it's a stupid question.

Is that wrong?
I mean fuck trying to find the really great projects, am I right?

I don't get you. Are you forgetting what you're replying to? I really was under the impression that you meant a 5/5 project should be hosted. Correct me if I am mistaken but at least next time, be explicit.

 

[Chaosy]

Something that manages to please a larger number of people is objectively better.

I don't know about you, but I cannot see any other active project that would be able to
fulfil this task.

Perhaps.
In which case I would not put anything on the pedestal.

I don't get you. Are you forgetting what you're replying to? I really was under the impression that you meant a 5/5 project should be hosted. Correct me if I am mistaken but at least next time, be explicit.

Average rating mate. Getting exactly 5 is not gonna happen. But I have seen projects with 4.5+ which would round to 5.
And no, having 30 votes with that as average is not enough.

and I don't understand how you would give that as an example when you don't really like CS:GO that much. That doesn't mean you give it a 5/5.
We can't conclude anything safely when opinion differ. Masses spending money has little to do with quality.

If a whole lot of people (hundreds of thousands) can enjoy something, it's obviously good. Even if not for me personally.

Otherwise every project with at least one guy who likes it would be hosted because it's amazing to him/her.

This is a flawed argument. You just don't consider something to be of quality because most people like it.

Indeed, I do not consider something that please 3 people to be amazing. Not in comparison.
I am sure you can find some weird psycho that finds killing enjoyable, that does not make killing great does it?
If you think so, might as well start your campaign and run for president right away.

I know, a mad example. But I like going to lengths to (try) prove a point.

 

[deepstrasz]

Something that manages to please a larger number of people is objectively better.

Yes, it's better in that it pleases more people but that doesn't equal great quality. Please...

And no, having 30 votes with that as average is not enough.

There are few projects which actually are lucky enough to get even that many votes. Members don't vote that often and most people that download don't even have an account. Others just give +rep or leave a comment and that's it.

Otherwise every project with at least one guy who likes it would be hosted because it's amazing to him/her.

I wasn't referring to that. Besides, I don't think I heard of such a thing. When something is made public, it gets various opinions because, you know, more than one person exists on this planet.

I am sure you can find some weird psycho that finds killing enjoyable, that does not make killing great does it?

Depends on the terms we're discussing. In terms of insanity and killing it might be great, I wouldn't know. I don't have that passion.
Listen, food is also great by your example because it satisfies people but don't forget the crappy food that tastes good, is maybe cheaper and is not healthy at all.

f a whole lot of people (hundreds of thousands) can enjoy something, it's obviously good. Even if not for me personally.

Not for you? Well, in the end it matters to you, not to them. If they like it and you don't, you don't gain anything. If they like hitting their heads on the wall, does that make it good?

Also, I and many other fans like the Warcraft movie. That doesn't make it a great movie.

I don't know about you, but I cannot see any other active project that would be able to
fulfil this task.

Exactly. What I'm trying to write is, that all active projects should be looked over and eventually inserted in the Hosted Projects forum/list if deemed fit.

 

[deepstrasz]

How do you know that they haven't already?

I don't remember maps of APproject being hosted during their time. He really does amazing stuff even if I consider hardcore gaming.

 

[Chaosy]

Yes, it's better in that it pleases more people but that doesn't equal great quality. Please...

I go no more arguments.
I simply find it logical, you do not see it that way so I will give up in trying to convince you.

There are few projects which actually are lucky enough to get even that many votes. Members don't vote that often and most people that download don't even have an account. Others just give +rep or leave a comment and that's it.

Perhaps.
But there are projects that manage. Gaias which in my opinion IS a deserving project to be hosted got 150 votes.

I wasn't referring to that. Besides, I don't think I heard of such a thing. When something is made public, it gets various opinions because, you know, more than one person exists on this planet.

Obviously?
But the point is, we can't go by the "but these few people like it!" logic to choose hosted projects.
Because then we would have tons of hosted projects and it would lose value.

 

[deepstrasz]

But the point is, we can't go by the "but these few people like it!" logic to choose hosted projects.
Because then we would have tons of hosted projects and it would lose value.

One last time. Quality over quantity, logical for you or not.

The two new projects have been added because this obviously is an attempt to revive the
not-too-alive Hosted Projects section.

Nothing against it.

 

[Chaosy]

One last time. Quality over quantity, logical for you or not.

edit: rephrased this point a little.
I propose we replace "approved" with "hosted" if that's the logic we're going to use in the future.

The two new projects have been added because this obviously is an attempt to revive the
not-too-alive Hosted Projects section.

Yeah, that would be my guess as well.

Of course, I would not try to revive something by adding worse content to the mix. (IMO)
But then again, I usually disagree with a lot of people so it usually don't go my way.

 

[deepstrasz]

so it usually don't go my way.

Thank the elements!

I propose we remove the map section and make every single approved map get hosted then.

Your proposals are delirious. I'm starting to think it's not because you might be younger than me.

Of course, I would not try to revive something by adding worse content to the mix.

Please, I want your objective review on why Rufus' Warden maps aren't worth hosting. If that's not what you meant, excuse and ignore me.

 

[Chaosy]

Here you go this is as objective as it gets.
Compare the number of downloads, comments, ratings Gaias is in a whole other league.
Yet both are hosted.

VS

Of course, Gaias has been along for longer thus more downloads.
So, we need to compare somehow.

Coming of the Horde 21.1 is another 4/5 rated map (like the Warden series). Uploaded 2008, one year earlier than Gaias.
21 000 downloads. Which is 2.6k per year and 215 per month.

Gaias got 20k yearly downloads, 1.6k per month.

So unless Warden is judged incorrectly by mod/reviewers, it's not even in the same league as Gaias or Sunken Temple.

 

[deepstrasz]

Here you go this is as objective as it gets.
Compare the number of downloads, comments, ratings Gaias is in a whole other league.
Yet both are hosted.

Dute, please...

Of course, Gaias has been along for longer thus more downloads.

Well, then, see? Why are you blatantly contradicting yourself? Warden has not had the same time to be rated and downloaded as Gaias. A correct comparison will never be made when Gaias has had even more downloads because of new content added so, not just new people but also those who had played it, downloaded it (again).

This is as objective as it gets.

Stop spamming the thread, please.

 

[Chaosy]

@Shar Dundred Which is why I compared with a map from the same period. (one year difference, close enough)

Well, then, see? Why are you blatantly contradicting yourself?

Thanks for conveniently ignoring the comparison I added to neglect that.

A correct comparison will never be made when Gaias has had even more downloads because of new content added so, not just new people but also those who had played it, downloaded it (again).

Warden wont rise and get four times as many downloads or something. If it was that good it would not be rated as a 4, and it would probably have more attention.

Stop spamming the thread, please.

If we start to count you've posted as much as me, hypocrite.

 

[deepstrasz]

Okay, not minding all stuff said in this thread by now, I really have a need to address this in higher scale context.

I really don't understand what you try to explain there. I mean you surely do but I don't know what you're exactly saying.
I think the HiveWorkshop has always been about creation (mainly) for Warcraft III be it in terms of models, icons or the most searched: maps. It's more like a hippy groove. There are people who still play Warcraft III on Battle.net but things went into a sort of schism. People now also play on GameRanger, Garena and maybe others.
Are you suggesting Hive should organize ladder type or payed contests? I doubt that's a way for a dedicated site to work. That's more of a marketing strategy the game's company should instill. They kind of have, didn't they?

 

[Chaosy]

Link to mentioned post? I am somewhat interested about this system as I do not visit other forums to know. And just reading your post does not enlighten me, perhaps you wrote too little this time instead x)

 

[Chaosy]

Ah..
Alternatively you could try something like Pharoah_ tried back in the day.
2012: The Legendary Fight ~ Work Presentation, Discussion, Feedback
The "2012 Event": Action Required from the participants
[Event]: 2012 - The Legendary Fight

 

[deepstrasz]

I'm just saying it is far better way to encourage multiplayer than the occasional hosting of projects.

OK. I think I started to get a hold of it. Putting something like that in your face when you come to the site won't help if people won't be there to play and judge. It's interesting and constructive but hard to get it all working with the different time zones. It's like creating a team and leading it. It's not something you can just do by snapping fingers.

 

[deepstrasz]

This is not a one man job.

That's what I wrote. It's a team. It's hard to get all those people at the right time together.

Generally people should realize that if you want to get forum back to its feet, some commitment is necessary.

Well, the site isn't going anywhere. People are still modding and making maps.

And oh, you talking about time zones difficulties? Well I guess if it's not a problem to wait a judge on contests for 4.5 months to give feedback than this ''con'' is irrelevant.

No. I meant for the players to gather and play against each other at the same time. Maybe, a way to do it would be to separate continents but that would mean reducing the number of players for a tournament.
Also, some announcements on other sites and places has to be done to attract players that are keen on multiplayer.

Anyways, I'm not saying it's impossible or anything. I'm saying it's not that easy how I think you're trying to tell me it is.
Ask for a staff position and start doing this, I don't know.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Chaosy, I'm sorry you're disappointed. However, your arguments why you should be disappointed doesn't take in the bigger picture and are assumptions. For the examples that were used already; APproject respectfully declined wanting to have a forum for his spectacular maps. Coming of the Horde actually hosts a major forum on one of our affiliate site. Your rating argument doesn't take in mind that many past and even some present hosted projects actually have below a 4.7 average. Other projects you pointed to could / were considered, but may not have been active enough in present day. Aye, perhaps we should have added some 2-3-4 years ago, but we didn't for whatever reason and we're focusing on now. Basically, don't judge a book by its cover mate.

Murlocologist, you have good points. This, however, isn't the place to discuss that topic on as per the site rules of being off-topic. Site discussion or staff contact would be the best places to put these arguments.

My staff position doesn't entail me to moderate the news forum, but don't be surprised to see things moved or deleted. Peace all.

 

[Chaosy]

However, your arguments why you should be disappointed doesn't take in the bigger picture and are assumptions.

They do, actually.
I said that rather than taking some quite good maps to host right now, I would wait until some super-amazing maps came along and try to hose those. (once again, from my point of view. Technically they have the possibility of getting that DC but I don't see it at the moment)
That would probably make the revival of the section more likely.
The only downside being that such a map may not appear, but it's a gamble I would personally take.

Coming of the Horde actually hosts a major forum on one of our affiliate site.

And we'll sink equally low. Great.
I am sure it's a good map. Just not an super-amazing one.

Your rating argument doesn't take in mind that many past and even some present hosted projects actually have below a 4.7 average

True.
But it could be explained by the fact that a presentation do not represent the finished map.
A project may look super promising but not living up to exceptions for whatever reason. (just look at a whole lot of over-hyped games such as SWTOR or No Mans Sky)
If such was not the case, I've not been up to date and should have lost respect for the "hosted" title earlier.

My staff position doesn't entail me to moderate the news forum, but don't be surprised to see things moved or deleted. Peace all.

That would not be the first time, I am more or less expecting it actually.
Hopefully dodging them neg reps and permanent infractions.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

They do, actually.
I said that rather than taking some quite good maps to host right now, I would wait until some super-amazing maps came along and try to hose those. (once again, from my point of view. Technically they have the possibility of getting that DC but I don't see it at the moment)
That would probably make the revival of the section more likely.
The only downside being that such a map may not appear, but it's a gamble I would personally take.

It is an interesting argument, but that is the way you want it is how it's been for 3+ years. We haven't accepted a map in 3 years partly due to how high our standards have risen. We've talk this over as staff, and we agreed set the bar to great projects, not ones of utmost quality and super popularity only.
However, if it was my decision alone, I would give World Domination a director's cut when it's out of beta. So yes, the majority and I think very highly of these projects.

That would not be the first time, I am more or less expecting it actually.
Hopefully dodging them neg reps and permanent infractions.

I am aware of that. I am also aware that you don't back down from an argument, but here is my advice.
There is value in negativity, I strongly believe that. This famous family quote, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all," is something that I think is wrong. However, in things like this, the negativity is much more of a burden than anything else. It spirals threads off-topic, it gives a bad impression to visitors, it burns bridges, it consumes more valuable time. My preposition is to agree to disagree more often. Your opponent will give points that you feel are invalid, but to tediously continue on is more detrimental than you may think. It can be hard, the urge to want to have to argue with something, I know, but I believe you understand what I'm saying.

 

[Ralle]

I moved your comments to a separate thread guys. Talking about the lack of quality in hosted projects in the announcement of hosted projects is completely tactless and rude. Let yourself go in this thread and think about what I said for future announcements.

I would like to refer to our sticky about the matter regarding quality in hosted projects.

• The project must be creative, interesting and unique.

This does not say that the projects must be DC-worthy or anything like that. It's actually really vague, allowing us to handle it on a case-by-case basis.

Hosted projects is not a showcase of the best stuff ever created. I consider it like funding for a start-up. We give them the tools to aid their project along. You don't give funding to an already perfectly running business not in need of any help. These guys need more space to have their various threads and room to organize things for their projects which we have deemed sufficiently creative, interesting and unique.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

Ofc majority of WC3 mods suck. Edit: Mods that I can recommend are: DotA and that's it.

However the people who like the genre in particular will like the map.