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New update to WC3 - 1.25

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Yes it's true, you remember the golden good old days?. At the beginning I had massive problems with correct settings for the windows firewall and my router firewall, until I was able to host. Then my first host, where you needed to refresh by hand, with the feeing, that you maybe kick someone, if he join while refreshing. Then some auto refresh tools comes up and spamed the chat full with "Auto Refresh has join the game ... Auto Refresh has left the game". Then the pickup.listchecker tool, where you cool host via Lan connection and very low pings and now?: Only Bots ... 1 or 2 games host by humans vs 200 bot hosts ....

But it comes, how it should - look at Diablo 2 for example. When you find a diablo -or baalrun, which is not hosted by a bot, you nearly are a god

[Yes this Offtopic, but I like to think about the good golden age]
 

Dr Super Good

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Bot hosts in WC3 are perfectly fine. Ones hosting maps by supporting clans generally offer you a better quality play than random people hosts who would often custom kick you for being noticably better than them or because you were more lucky or played more.

Diablo II has the problem that its a grinding game and people use the bots to grind which makes manual grinding pointless. Further more, all the bots do eventually get banned on diablo II but there are so many of them and the average ban is executed only after a variable period in months (to prevent instant feedback for hackers).

Where as WC3 bots are good and do not affect gameplay (or even make gameplay better thanks to the reduced default latency and good UL some have), Diablo II ones are bad as they eithor spam you with retarded garbage so you can not see unless you hold "n" to clear all messages or they kill Baal and Diablo 24/7 getting loot with no recation delay.

I wish blizzard would promote some trusted users to moderators of D2 so that we could ban the bots CDKeys. Even if it is only a temporary ban (1 week), enough people doing it could remove the bot plague. Blizzard should maybe even consider open sourcing Diablo II when Diablo III comes out, that way it can atleast get the maintence it diserves.
 
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Let me tell you one thing, Dr Super Good:

Let's say I make a map. On wc3. And I do not have Garena or any other "bad" and "illegal" server ... I buy wc3 with my money and what happens ? Oh noes! I need to buy it one more time for my f*cking bot to host it, cause noone has even the chance to see non-bot hosts ? You call that "perfectly fine" and "fair" ?

Well, I don't. I am 100% (and more) against host bots. If u want your map to be popular - HOST IT FFS! Is that so hard for people to do ? ....

But enough offtopic.
The patch is fine, as it improves the game itself. The resolutions for widescreen are really helpful, because many poeple do not know how to edit the RegEdit and play on their native res. I don't see how that counts as "unnecessary" o_O
Too bad nothin specific about the world editor, though .... As it is 70 (?) maybe 80% of Wc3 nowadays (deservingly, ofc).
 
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Let me tell you one thing, Dr Super Good:

Let's say I make a map. On wc3. And I do not have Garena or any other "bad" and "illegal" server ... I buy wc3 with my money and what happens ? Oh noes! I need to buy it one more time for my f*cking bot to host it, cause noone has even the chance to see non-bot hosts ? You call that "perfectly fine" and "fair" ?
You don't have to do that. you can host it on your own CD-Key, or you can rent a hosting bot for like 8$/month (that's what mine was back in the day) and it was completely reliable.


Well, I don't. I am 100% (and more) against host bots. If u want your map to be popular - HOST IT FFS! Is that so hard for people to do ? ....

Bots themselves aren't that bad, you're just unwilling to see the good in them.


But enough offtopic.
The patch is fine, as it improves the game itself. The resolutions for widescreen are really helpful, because many poeple do not know how to edit the RegEdit and play on their native res. I don't see how that counts as "unnecessary" o_O
Too bad nothin specific about the world editor, though .... As it is 70 (?) maybe 80% of Wc3 nowadays (deservingly, ofc).

The majority of BNet is ladder and DotA. Don't try to make custom games sound more important than they are, because quite frankly, they aren't.

edit: before you guys ever ask for world editor patches, think back to the last patch. It effectively broke backwards compatibility and a shit ton of you complained about how many maps were lost and how fucked up Blizzard is.

Blizzard can't exactly edit the editor if it means breaking some function that someone uses at some point in a map without effectively breaking a map.
 
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Ok, quite frankly I see your point, BUT:

1. Bot renting for 8$ a month? Is that not MORE REAL-TIME MONEY you spend on wc3? Seriously ? I thought the game was only supposed to be purchased once.
2. Host it my own CD-key - yes, you are 100% right, BUT ... there is a small problem.. let's say I want to PLAY my map ? What do we do then ?
3. Bots are not that bad, of course. But their use has dimished the quality of B-net a million times. Come on, do you really think that only 10-15 maps are worth playing, because someone is willing to pay for others to see them ?
4. Well, actually - they are. And if bots did not exist, you would definitely see what I mean. Just like years ago when you could see a thousand different maps hosted every day on B-net.
5. When they added hashtables it was most frankly one of the best things for me. They are easy and nice to use even in GUI and they are quite efficient, too. Yes, I know vJass is better, faster and more efficient, BUT Gui hastables have their uses. I think noone can argue here.


P.S.
I never ever ever argued about a patch Blizzard made to my favourite game in my whole life. (Or the 7 years I've been playing Wc3 and World Editor.)
 
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Ok, quite frankly I see your point, BUT:

1. Bot renting for 8$ a month? Is that not MORE REAL-TIME MONEY you spend on wc3? Seriously ? I thought the game was only supposed to be purchased once.
The idea is if you want to just "test it out" rather than flat out buy it, you can do it for a cheaper price. At the same time, you can always just buy the game if you so desire.

Keep in mind, you don't actually need to buy the game to have a hosting bot, you just need a working CD-key.

2. Host it my own CD-key - yes, you are 100% right, BUT ... there is a small problem.. let's say I want to PLAY my map ? What do we do then ?
Why can't you just host it yourself if you want to play?

3. Bots are not that bad, of course. But their use has dimished the quality of B-net a million times. Come on, do you really think that only 10-15 maps are worth playing, because someone is willing to pay for others to see them ?
They haven't diminished the quality of B.Net. If people wanted to play other games, they would host them. Just because you don't necessarily agree with what should and should not be popular on B.Net does not mean you can just slag on it and label the whole establishment as "bad".

4. Well, actually - they are. And if bots did not exist, you would definitely see what I mean. Just like years ago when you could see a thousand different maps hosted every day on B-net.
I've been on B.Net since 2002 and I still see the same exact crap as always. In fact, I'd say map quality has gone up.

5. When they added hashtables it was most frankly one of the best things for me. They are easy and nice to use even in GUI and they are quite efficient, too. Yes, I know vJass is better, faster and more efficient, BUT Gui hastables have their uses. I think noone can argue here.

Except for the fact that it broke a shit-ton of maps that will never be recovered and forced any legitimate mapmaker to release a "fixed" version of their map and left B.Net custom games in a situation where all decent maps were non-existent for a week or so.

Not to mention that this patch also introduced the notorious "share hack" which raped competitive Warcraft III for the most part of 2 years.

P.S.
I never ever ever argued about a patch Blizzard made to my favourite game in my whole life. (Or the 7 years I've been playing Wc3 and World Editor.)

YOu said you wanted a world editor patch.
 
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1. The idea of renting something for realtime money is not what warcraft is about is it ? This is not Wow!! Wow gamers kno0w that that they have to pay to play. Wc3 ones - do not and should not.

2. Well if u stay long ehough in the game-lobby u'll see ... player-hosted games always go down the list while bot ones will autorefresh themselves and always stand on top, thus making them mre visible and when you refresh the lobby, player games are much more frequetly left unseen. Now now then - I know, bots are good and can autorefresh BUT aren't players supposed to host their own games ?!

3. They do host them! I do, too. But I do not have the intention of buying or renting a host-bot to make my games more popular. That's absurd. WE ARE NOT IN WOW. [Wow for that matter is the shittiest game ever made in the world, but that is a different thing.]

4. Come on, let me see a Farmer Vs Hunter map, or a Boreal Conflict one? Or a footman war, different from Frenzy ? I can list the maps that are being hosted, cause I see them every Goddamn day .... and I can't see Minig Wars for example. [It's one of the most creative games made imo.] But Still, my MAJOR idea is, why do only people who own bots must have the chance to have their maps seen and played ??? That can't be the concept of blizzard.

5. It ruined most maps, yes. But gave opportunities for many others to be created. And the hack was fixes after all, no ?

6. I did not complain about this patch, actually I think it was something needed. I just hope they will further enchance the best part of Wc3 -> World Editor.

P.S.
Just that everyone knows, I do have the original game. I've had it for many years. And never supported pirate survers until the bots took over! B-net can still be made a place for everyone. Only thing Blizzard has to do is vanish the bot-problem.
 
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1. The idea of renting something for realtime money is not what warcraft is about is it ? This is not Wow!! Wow gamers kno0w that that they have to pay to play. Wc3 ones - do not and should not.
You don't have to pay to play. You don't have to pay to host. If you WANT to you can. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Players who are willing to pay money for any game are always compensated in some way or another.

2. Well if u stay long ehough in the game-lobby u'll see ... player-hosted games always go down the list while bot ones will autorefresh themselves and always stand on top, thus making them mre visible and when you refresh the lobby, player games are much more frequetly left unseen. Now now then - I know, bots are good and can autorefresh BUT aren't players supposed to host their own games ?!
Players can host their own games. Bots hosting games falls under the same distinction, ultimately it's a player's decision for the bot to host...At the same time, learn to refresh?

3. They do host them! I do, too. But I do not have the intention of buying or renting a host-bot to make my games more popular. That's absurd. WE ARE NOT IN WOW. [Wow for that matter is the shittiest game ever made in the world, but that is a different thing.]
Don't complain if you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is. Also, I know billions of Koreans, Viets, and Chinese who are willing to disagree with you about WoW.

4. Come on, let me see a Farmer Vs Hunter map, or a Boreal Conflict one? Or a footman war, different from Frenzy ?
I see those games everyday. Footman wars are just dis-credited because they're all blatant rip-offs of Frenzy.

I can list the maps that are being hosted, cause I see them every Goddamn day .... and I can't see Minig Wars for example.
Yeah, because people pay. However, people still can host their own maps. I definitely know I've seen Mining Wars on Azeroth at least 4 times in the past week.

But Still, my MAJOR idea is, why do only people who own bots must have the chance to have their maps seen and played ??? That can't be the concept of blizzard.
1) Everyone has an equal chance
2) Why would Blizzard care? They don't support custom games for a reason.

5. It ruined most maps, yes. But gave opportunities for many others to be created. And the hack was fixes after all, no ?
The H2I "abuse" in of itself was the same thing as hashtables. In fact, an argument can be made that it was more flexible.

The hack was fixed after all, yeah, but it was after ~2 years of non-stop hackers winning tournaments and dominating high ELO. I lost my top 15 ranking because I played 12 straight share hackers. Other players who are actually good had the same experiences. It's a huge fucking deal, seeing as how those hackers also got paid money for tournaments they "won" and recieved bids to compete in tournaments like Blizzcon where they got absolutely raped because they actually had to play.

6. I did not complain about this patch, actually I think it was something needed. I just hope they will further enchance the best part of Wc3 -> World Editor.
Go back to my earlier post: Instead of asking, why don't you suggest?
 
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1. But the thing you are saying is not what the game is intended to be. IMO they would earn more money if the original and legal server was playable, cause other servers at least provide less-infested bot-hosting lobby.

2. Ok, I can understand leaving a bot to host your map while you are AFK. But then again, why do bots have to always have the upper hand in hosting simultaneously?

3. Wow is well-made game. There is one tiny problem though. The price in my country is not the same as the one in Britain or USA. People will say: "It is." But it is not. And yes, many people will disagree here, I know. But after all, Wc3 is the game before WoW. When it was introduced, noone said that we'd have to pay monthly or multiple times to get exclusive rights. B-net is not the same - everyone sees it. If someone is a fan of only the most popular and extremely familliar games on Wc3 - fine -> Bots work for them. They don't for me.

4. It's quite rarely, actually. Compared to TBR, Tank Wars, Dota, Vampirism, Castle fight, TkoK and so on.

5. 4 times in the past week? How many times have you seen any of these maps? Are they very good? Maybe they are. Are there others that are. YES!

6. I can't see any equality for several reasons:
- Bot users got to have a CD-key for the bot.
- Why are 80% of the games bot-hosted ? Cause 80% of the players use bots? No. It's because you hardly get to see the non-bot hosted games.

7. Well it's kind of hard to believe that any tournament worth money can actually be won by hacking. Hackers can plague the B-net, yes, but this does not mean they get money for that. And yes, they do get raped in tournaments. So what? Does that mean the world editor cannot get any better?

7.1. There's another thing. People mostly value 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 games? Why ? Isn't warcraft supposed to have some sort of teamplay ?? So many want to say that a custom map that requires 6-7-8 players to watch outt for each others heroes or armies is WORSE than a game where you only depend on 12k gold in your mine and 12k gold in the only possible expansion? That's absurd for me. Teamwork is far more interesting than 1 on 1 fights.

8. Give ideas about the WE? Let's say more and more functions, unaccessable by GUI-users for now to be made accessable is a good one.
 
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I totally agree DSG. DII is a complete mess with all the bots. In matter of fact, you can easily create your own bot with just the first search result at Google. Although there are a few good things like baalrunners for lower levels and such don't you agree? Leveling faster? A few of them often have the "human delay" which even makes it possible to pick-up items before them. Even this applies to a few bots in Hell.

Since there are so many bots in WC3 it's kind of boring as everyone is joining different games and waits for nothing as you cannot wait because there are way too many servers to join especially DOTA. Although when you host a custom map of your own, it usually joins alot of people. TD is the key.
 

Dr Super Good

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totally agree DSG. DII is a complete mess with all the bots. In matter of fact, you can easily create your own bot with just the first search result at Google. Although there are a few good things like baalrunners for lower levels and such don't you agree? Leveling faster? A few of them often have the "human delay" which even makes it possible to pick-up items before them. Even this applies to a few bots in Hell.

They all get your cdkey banned eventually. And most steal it / give away the loot they gather to their programmers. Yes you do not get banned immediatly but that is to stop hackers getting immidiate feedback, instead it bans you after a few weeks - many months. The longest I heard was 2 years after someone used a bot their key got banned.

You can play and run a bot with 1 CDkey. You just need to join your own game via LAN. Games are hosted independiantly of battlenet, (thus how people from northered and azeroth can be in a bot game at the same time) and the only thing a bot uses battlenet for is so the game appears on the custom map list.

It is very easy to fill a non bot hosted game if it is popular enough. The problem is there are 1/20 or 1/100 as many people playing WC3 who are looking for custom games as there used to be so even bot games have problems filling.
 
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They all get your cdkey banned eventually. And most steal it / give away the loot they gather to their programmers. Yes you do not get banned immediatly but that is to stop hackers getting immidiate feedback, instead it bans you after a few weeks - many months. The longest I heard was 2 years after someone used a bot their key got banned.

It is very easy to fill a non bot hosted game if it is popular enough. The problem is there are 1/20 or 1/100 as many people playing WC3 who are looking for custom games as there used to be so even bot games have problems filling.

Didn't they turn off the warden? That's what I've heard. Anyway - many months - I don't get it, why not take a day and purge every single one of them :D Would have been awesome. And less spammy.

The last part I agree to. I've hosted plenty of maps and usually, it gets full pretty easily.
 
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As far as I know, Warden itself never really worked for custom games. I remember they had like 1 massive ban spree a year or so back but other than that, hosting bots and custom game map hack etc. were all left alone.

I don't think Warden can work in custom games at all. I remember playing a Naruto Wars clan war against some kid and we all had maphack on and he was like "I have teh Wardenz it says ur all maphacking" and it only said his team was.
 
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Soz I heard some awesome news.

BLIZZARD FAILS AGAIN AND AGAIN
There was a new hack released some days after the patch.

A winhack!
This winhack exploits a huge flaw in the design of Warcraft 3. Whenever you issue a unit command it will create a Task Object and pass it to a routine which will call all associated routines with the according task. The winhack sends a lot of unit commands, making the client go through that routine over and over again until it will freeze.
 
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Soz I heard some awesome news.

BLIZZARD FAILS AGAIN AND AGAIN
There was a new hack released some days after the patch.

A winhack!
This winhack exploits a huge flaw in the design of Warcraft 3. Whenever you issue a unit command it will create a Task Object and pass it to a routine which will call all associated routines with the according task. The winhack sends a lot of unit commands, making the client go through that routine over and over again until it will freeze.

That was like 5 patches ago.
 

Dr Super Good

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5 patches ago was a stack overflow? This is a loop abuse from what he described.

No, seriously, is Warcraft 3 coding is really that poor? and I complained on SC2 for poor optimization...
SC2 is seriously well optimized and extreemly robust. Any performance problems you have with it must be your computer sucking cause it does a lot more than WC3. Unlike WC3 where you were limited to 1 unit getting a mini move order at any time, SC2 lets all units move instantly (which in extreem cases will cause performance issues). SC2 also has graphics way better than WC3 which mean more processor time is used doing graphics.
 
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This works with loops yes.
And from what I know is that the best computer (which can take the most game lag generated by the loops) will win. So there is a chance that the hacker doesn't win himself. Not sure if it really works that way. It's what my friend said though.

How can blizzard even fail like this? Leaving a vulnerable spot alive together with being owned again with a hack.. They force themselves to keep patching.
 
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Come one, what you expect?
Blizzard and all others can do what they want as long those people exist, who have nothing to do the full day and create hacks.

Look at other games: Release > 1 day later a KeyGen for it > KeyGen is banned then > but 2 - 3 days later a blacklist hacker > when this is banned to > after some days a full hacked installation is out with full hacked patches, full hacked registry and many hacks, to own people in just one second.

But anyway, Warden is disabled for both, Diablo and Warcraft, else we wouldn't have so many bods and hacks there (I think). Also Blizzard can patch and code a game how they want, it always have some hacks available. Give Sc2 a half year or a year, then it becomes the same like Warcraft 3 -> Bot and hack party
 
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Just wait guys, and be grateful that Blizzard actually made a patch for Warcraft III after so damn long and I'm just kinda bored of Starcraft II now and hoping for the new expansion and see on how it goes on there.
OH AND ONE THOUSAND POSTS!!!! :3
*Parties*
 

Dr Super Good

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Warden is active for WC3 in both melee and custom games. The problem is that WC3 bots also use warden so appear as completly valid games (as if someone legit created them). Well as WC3 bots are good blizzard probably left them to do that as they do no harm.

The melee hacks are also perfectly legit and will not trigger warden. They exploit bugs in the game engine to unexpected input like issuing orders a unit should not be able to recieve and most of them do not even touch WC3 ingame (they just send faulty packets). The only way to fix these is to patch the game bugs. However what is cheating is the hackers often patch the bug on their version of the game so they do not get affected and this should be detected by warden.

You can not bot on SC2 because all games are already bots (hosted by blizzard). Add bots are sure to come eventually but blizzard can easilly ban them seeing as they need to do a lot to buy and make new accounts. Like wise you can not really hack as they clearly have designed the game engine to be a lot more fault tollerent than WC3 (throwing errors or doing nothing rather than fataling or locking up).

The situation with Diablo II is a bit unfair. Blizzard did not actually make the game (the blizzard we know today). It was made by their now defunct division Blizzard North and most of the makers were laid off. As such no patch team dedicated to it exists, unlike WC3 where the same guys are prettymuch still around.
 

Dr Super Good

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It depends, fixing one may fix the others but all the bugs are down to packet abuse as far as I can tell. The game is not very robust.

Yes it works fine for packets that it does expect, but once you start sending orders that do not make sense then it just falls appart.
 
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In case you didn't know, Warcraft III is already pretty balanced with some slight Human imbalances. This isn't my review of the game. This is what top tier players like Grubby, Moon, Sky, TH000 and Lyn have all agreed on.
Top player opinions do not represent race balance. If you look at tournament races over the last couple of years you can very easily see the significant increase in Orc overall, especially amongst the winners. You can also see the decrease in top players using races like Undead where many of those old famous names have simply quit because the game's balance favors specific strategies.

You mention Human as an example of what you think is an "official" opinion on race balance. Human isn't overpowered as a race, but because some of their strategies cannot be countered on certain maps (such as fast exe) and these maps happen to be played a lot on tournaments, giving the race a strong advantage at times.

Balance is incredibly hard to achieve and Blizzard has spent many years trying to build up a balanced game, but at some Blizzard stopped and moved their focus to newer games. But the game didn't stop evolving and cheesy strategies that were considered overpowered (compared to the old "intended" strategies) have become the new standard and some matches revolve entirely around countering an overpowered strategy (such as DH BM Tinker + Talons vs Orc). You could in a way say the game has balanced itself, but it's still very clear that some strategies have broken the original design of the game and forced players to adept to a play-style that is unlike anything the race was designed for. You can't claim Night Elf was ever a race intended to mass casters with two extra neutral heroes.

Last of all, don't be so quick to slam 4v4. It's true that there's no balance or real skill in the format (I've played it enough to know every horrible type of player) but it retains a lot of the original game's charm: Build an army of choice, level your hero up, collect items and attack your enemy in a final battle. 1v1 has become so much more than that, and in turn it can be an incredibly stressful format where you need to be constantly active to win the game.
 
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Top player opinions do not represent race balance. If you look at tournament races over the last couple of years you can very easily see the significant increase in Orc overall, especially amongst the winners. You can also see the decrease in top players using races like Undead where many of those old famous names have simply quit because the game's balance favors specific strategies.

Orc is considered the "easiest" race because one strategy (BM + SH/TC + Raiders + Walkers) is effective against all races. It's easier to learn 1 effective strategy than many. That doesn't make Orc incredibly overpowered, seeing as how Orcs still consistently lose just as much as they win.

Undead is quite the opposite, where one has to learn many different pushes to be effective. The problem with Undead though is that these timings are very easy to predict and get easily countered.

Have you ever watched a real pro UD play? Happy and Lucifer could play toe-to-toe against any pro, they just lost a lot of matches due to making mistakes that are so vital in the matchup that you can't recover.

You mention Human as an example of what you think is an "official" opinion on race balance. Human isn't overpowered as a race, but because some of their strategies cannot be countered on certain maps (such as fast exe) and these maps happen to be played a lot on tournaments, giving the race a strong advantage at times.
The fast expand in of itself isn't something considered imba. It's the power building and the massing of unkillable towers (they're fortified now, right?). Human itself isn't overpowered or incredibly strong, seeing as how all Human matches require the player to pull off incredible micro with a tri-hero if they want to last into T3 or pull of a miraculous push at T2 to win.

Balance is incredibly hard to achieve and Blizzard has spent many years trying to build up a balanced game, but at some Blizzard stopped and moved their focus to newer games.
And it has been achieved. The game is incredibly balanced. Certain races just have a longer learning curve to them. For example, if you go on bnet, a majority of UD go fast fiends, even though it's not an effective strategy against Night Elf or Orc. They simply don't know a better one.
But the game didn't stop evolving and cheesy strategies that were considered overpowered (compared to the old "intended" strategies) have become the new standard and some matches revolve entirely around countering an overpowered strategy (such as DH BM Tinker + Talons vs Orc).
What "cheesy" strategies are standard? Are you talking about the quick human tower rush against NE on 1v1 maps? Because that's incredibly hard to pull off against a player who doesn't shit himself at the sight of towers in hise base. In all the times I've seen it ran I've only seen it succeed once.
You could in a way say the game has balanced itself, but it's still very clear that some strategies have broken the original design of the game and forced players to adept to a play-style that is unlike anything the race was designed for.
There was never any "intention" for any race. Who's to say anything?
You can't claim Night Elf was ever a race intended to mass casters with two extra neutral heroes.
I actually can. The Moon Wells make any hero combination viable and the heroes themselves wouldn't be added into the game if they weren't forseeably useful. In addition, massing casters requires a lot of skill to pull off and the results can be quite spectacular.

Once again though, who is to say what is "intended" of a race? If we were all intended to play NE and go mass hunts, games would be horrible.

Last of all, don't be so quick to slam 4v4. It's true that there's no balance or real skill in the format (I've played it enough to know every horrible type of player) but it retains a lot of the original game's charm: Build an army of choice, level your hero up, collect items and attack your enemy in a final battle. 1v1 has become so much more than that, and in turn it can be an incredibly stressful format where you need to be constantly active to win the game.

You just admitted yourself that 4v4 doesn't require skill. That's all I was "slamming"

When you get into high tier 4v4 it does get rediculously competitive though.
 
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Get either the downloadable version from Battlenet using your key or you probably got banned from there if you have both versions, but they won't work.
Well can you post on what the message says then?
 
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Orc is considered the "easiest" race because one strategy (BM + SH/TC + Raiders + Walkers) is effective against all races. It's easier to learn 1 effective strategy than many. That doesn't make Orc incredibly overpowered, seeing as how Orcs still consistently lose just as much as they win.
This is not the whole truth and this very patch reflects that. Let me take the Raider as an example of what makes Orc "overpowered". Ensnare is a very strong ability and Raiders were never supposed to be such powerful combat units but "hit and run" siege units. However, the introduction of the unarmored type made certain unit types vulnerable to the siege damage and Orc found a new strength in the Raider.

Night Elf is the best example of this unit's effect. Training Raiders alone counter many Unarmored unit types such as the Huntress and the Dryad, and researching Ensnare counters heavier units such as Druid of the Claw and Chimaera.

Warcraft is designed so that you need different units to counter different enemies, and what makes a unit like the Raider overpowered is the fact that the unit has come to counter so many units as a side effect of patch balance changes. That's why it's even remotely possible to pull one strategy off against three different races.

Have you ever watched a real pro UD play? Happy and Lucifer could play toe-to-toe against any pro, they just lost a lot of matches due to making mistakes that are so vital in the matchup that you can't recover.
Happy is absolutely one of my favorite players. I find that expanding as Undead is very hard and even in his longer games he always come down to a disadvantage with gold because Undead expansions are so incredibly easy to harass, especially since many of the tournament maps are small and packed with Zeppelins that can be used for quick drop-offs.

Undead is an example of a race whose power also varies a lot depending on the map. Maps like Twisted Meadows is amazing to play Undead on but then you also have maps like Teneras Stand where expanding is literally asking for Zeppelin harassment and players can frequently use Sappers to blow up Ziggurats.

The fast expand in of itself isn't something considered imba. It's the power building and the massing of unkillable towers (they're fortified now, right?).
Sorry, but this is just wrong. It's not that towers can't be destroyed (they are still heavy armor - get your facts right before telling off other posters), but that on maps like Secret Valley the gold mine and creeps are so easy and close that even if you try and harass the Human player you can hardly stop the army of Militia and Footmen so early in the game. The layout of the map makes the difference here - if the expansion is close enough to the main base, the Human player can use his natural base defenses (Call to Arms) to protect the expansion where on maps like Twisted Meadows the gold mine is simply so far away the Militia will expire before making a difference.

And it has been achieved. The game is incredibly balanced. Certain races just have a longer learning curve to them. For example, if you go on bnet, a majority of UD go fast fiends, even though it's not an effective strategy against Night Elf or Orc. They simply don't know a better one.

What "cheesy" strategies are standard? Are you talking about the quick human tower rush against NE on 1v1 maps? Because that's incredibly hard to pull off against a player who doesn't shit himself at the sight of towers in hise base. In all the times I've seen it ran I've only seen it succeed once.
Which is what I said in the post you replied. The game is balanced, but that doesn't mean there aren't any overpowered strategies in the game. When you have a strategy that's better than everything else and it doesn't get fixed, the only solution is to adapt and counter the strategy. For example, buying Dust to avoid Wind Walk creepjacking and planning your base design around an enemy Blademaster has become nearly obligatory.

What makes something like creepjacking with Wind Walk is a cheesy strategy when it's now a standard that players are used to dealing with and countering? Because invisibility was never meant to be such a large element in the early game. You can see this on the availability of the normal invisibility counters like Sentinel, Sentry Ward, Flare and so on. You can see it on the cost of the build orders which aren't balanced around making a shop and purchasing Dust of Appearance before heading out to creep your first camp (not to mention the races that don't even have the item). Not to mention the obvious fact that the hero's amount of inventory space wasn't designed with the intend of always needing something to counter invisibility.

Despite going against the design of the game, players still adapted and the game balanced itself by turning the counter strategy into the new standard. With other words, you can no longer surprise your opponent with cheesy strategies because they will always have the most effective counter strategy ready. In fact, the most popular games usually always happen to be the games where the races break away from the cheesy strategy trying to catch the opponent off-guard and they cycle through a number of unit combinations through the game's length until a winner is decided.

But that still doesn't change the fact that the strategy's overpowered compared to the game's original design and that the game only has changed standards from necessity and not intended game play. Let me provide you with an analog: A man comes to your door every day demanding 10 bucks from you. You know that this is not the way society is structured but you can't do anything to change it. Eventually you will adapt to the life style and have 10 bucks ready every time he comes, and through years of experience you eventually come to accept it as a new structure of society.

The message here is that even though the game is balanced in the sense that it works and you are able to play it, the game's design has devolved from what it originally was regardless of what top players have agreed to. Less units are viable than in the game's original form and design, and many present standards seem awkward compared to the actual design of the game. Some races have come to depend largely on neutral objects like Taverns, Goblin Merchants and Labratories. It was never intended that the absence of these units on a map should diminish a race's power or effect the balance, and a result balance caters towards certain maps because the design affects certain races' ability to compete with the flavored strategies (such as Orc).
 
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DAMN IT!!!! Blizzard updated some abilities but
I ONLY WANT THEM TO UPDATE the World Editor by
CHECKING THE LEVEL OF a Buff!

FY clueless I, that 'some abilities' is a big move in melee, although strategies will not change much if at all.

So they removed the Tower being Fortified, well understandable. This was going to destroy ud in hu vs ud as ud's best time is to stop or cause serious push early than wait for meatwagons. Elf the same, although some do 2 rax hunts and glavies against human fe.

But they should've kept it the same cause that's ridiculous, 1stly buff human towers too much, then instead of just bringing back as it was, they nerf it with masonry upgr now giving less defense... Say from the one pole of too much buffing to the other pole of too much nerfing for it

Wind walk, well, annoying was how they avoided storm bolts, the duration was ok before. Ensnare was a bit strong and still is, this is a good choice though I never complained about vs orc. Less XP from spirit wolves... well they play BM mostly now so /care

Warden ss, well, was OK but now not much difference, nice for us non elves. Faeire fire nerf, well was OK, now im not sure if this affects elf much cause they mostly cyclone but heck that's bad for elf, should've been decreased to like 100 not 90.

I guess good fix for Tome of EXP to not make fast lvl 3 hero kills all. And Orb of Venom, another bad for elf, we non elves can greet it.
 
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Bogrim;1875946 Warcraft is designed so that you need different units to counter different enemies said:
That doesn't make it overpowered or imbalance, it just makes it a strong unit. Sure, Ensnare is pretty tough to get around, however, Raiders themselves have LOW DPS and LOW HP. They're not exactly game winners if you mass a shit ton of them and have Ensnare.

Undead is an example of a race whose power also varies a lot depending on the map. Maps like Twisted Meadows is amazing to play Undead on but then you also have maps like Teneras Stand where expanding is literally asking for Zeppelin harassment and players can frequently use Sappers to blow up Ziggurats.
Most Undead players don't bother expanding. T3 is so subjective that you can just bank and then make a shit load of units and decide the game on that. As long as you have a decent base build and decent micro, you won't lose if you turtle in your base.

This is why a lot of Undeads push Orc at T2 now, because it's quicker and doesn't let the TC/SH get to level 3.

It's still a do-or-die in both situations though, and that's not necesarilly a bad thing. You still have the same opportunities to win, they just come at different times than your opponent.

Sorry, but this is just wrong. It's not that towers can't be destroyed (they are still heavy armor - get your facts right before telling off other posters), but that on maps like Secret Valley the gold mine and creeps are so easy and close that even if you try and harass the Human player you can hardly stop the army of Militia and Footmen so early in the game. The layout of the map makes the difference here - if the expansion is close enough to the main base, the Human player can use his natural base defenses (Call to Arms) to protect the expansion where on maps like Twisted Meadows the gold mine is simply so far away the Militia will expire before making a difference.

Players build T1 against Human for a reason: to stop expansion. Militia and Footmen are overcomeable. For example, the time it takes a Militia to Call to Arms, run to the 3/9 o'clock expo is half of its timer. If you're trying to deny the expo then just pull out, wait 5 seconds, go back in, focus down their constructed buildings and repeat.

I take it you don't scout a lot, do you?

What makes something like creepjacking with Wind Walk is a cheesy strategy when it's now a standard that players are used to dealing with and countering? Because invisibility was never meant to be such a large element in the early game.
HOW CAN YOU MAKE THIS CLAIM? YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE GAME DESIGNERS INTENDED. ADEQUATE COUNTERS TO WIND WALK ARE AVAILABLE IN ALL RACES:
Human Arcran Tower/Militia
Undead Dust at T1/Nerubian Tower/Acolytes can have imba micro in the mine if you don't suck
Night Elf Moon Wells/Detonate/Gold Mine micro
Orc Burrows

But that still doesn't change the fact that the strategy's overpowered compared to the game's original design and that the game only has changed standards from necessity and not intended game play. Let me provide you with an analog: A man comes to your door every day demanding 10 bucks from you. You know that this is not the way society is structured but you can't do anything to change it. Eventually you will adapt to the life style and have 10 bucks ready every time he comes, and through years of experience you eventually come to accept it as a new structure of society.
This isn't how WC3 works. All levels of play have consistent differences among them and have players who play "outside the box." Yes, Human players generally make an Arcrane Tower in their base. Is it to stop Blademasters? Yes. Is it to stop anyone that wants to try to harass? Yes. Do Humans only make it to stop the Blademaster? NO. It's simply a good investment to prevent harass. That's why Humans make Arcrane Towers against races other than Orc.

Your analogy is false in the sense that you make it seem anticipating things like harassment in build orders is a bad thing. It's simply a good investment to defend your base. A lot of players I'm sure have been in situations where they go to creep and then their base is under heavy T1 pressure from the opponent. When your Night Elf, if you don't block your base, you're going to probably lose Wisps unless you distract from your creeping. So what's an intelligent decision? Blocking your base.

The message here is that even though the game is balanced in the sense that it works and you are able to play it, the game's design has devolved from what it originally was regardless of what top players have agreed to.
As strategies develop of course the paces of the game change. I don't get what you're trying to put out here. Anyone can use any sort of combination of unit or building to win, that is the goal of the designer. I can go on Battle.Net and make 100 food of Mountain Giants if I want. This doesn't mean I'm fucking with what the designers want or what the designers intended, it just means I'm retarded and going to lose.

It's like this with any game, players make strategies. Players test strategies. Players use strategies that are effective.

Less units are viable than in the game's original form and design, and many present standards seem awkward compared to the actual design of the game.
Why would you bother making certain units if your opponent is making a unit that's just better? I understand that you're saying that not all units get used, however, every unit has a niche. And some units just fit better niche's than others.

Some races have come to depend largely on neutral objects like Taverns, Goblin Merchants and Labratories. It was never intended that the absence of these units on a map should diminish a race's power or effect the balance, and a result balance caters towards certain maps because the design affects certain races' ability to compete with the flavored strategies (such as Orc).
The only neutral object on maps that isn't present is Taverns, which you're right, can greatly effect a matchup. However, that doesn't mean the matchup is completely lost. DH/KotG + Bears/Dryad play can still be extremely strong against Orcs, it's just a lot easier, convenient, and therefore makes more sense to go mass Dott.
 
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That doesn't make it overpowered or imbalance, it just makes it a strong unit. Sure, Ensnare is pretty tough to get around, however, Raiders themselves have LOW DPS and LOW HP. They're not exactly game winners if you mass a shit ton of them and have Ensnare.
DPS in the game isn't a statistic based on the unit's damage output from attacks. If you use Ensnare on a unit at the right moment and the result of the snare causes the unit to take more damage, then that makes the Raider add more damage to your army.

Likewise, having 3-4 Raiders supporting your army and chain casting Ensnare on an enemy hero can cause more damage than most other units are capable of. In fact, the only other ways to accomplish such a powerful focus fire effect is with hero spells or heavy air units, which both are much more costly and limited than the Raider unit.

Most Undead players don't bother expanding. T3 is so subjective that you can just bank and then make a shit load of units and decide the game on that. As long as you have a decent base build and decent micro, you won't lose if you turtle in your base.

This is why a lot of Undeads push Orc at T2 now, because it's quicker and doesn't let the TC/SH get to level 3.
These are not strategies that are developed by design intend but by design flaw. Every race has the ability to expand to additional gold mines because they're meant to have the strategical option, but Undead expansions are weak to types of harassment that weren't common practice when Blizzard were still balancing the game (like Zeppelins in Teneras Stand).

Undead players have developed strategies to overcome this weakness, and that's what you're describing. That doesn't mean it's a good thing for the game balance overall, because it's still a strategy made out of necessity than strategical strengths. It doesn't mean the game needs to be rebalanced because we both know Blizzard no longer has (or means to use) the resources necessary to actively tune their changes as this patch's batch of very careful changes illustrate.

Players build T1 against Human for a reason: to stop expansion. Militia and Footmen are overcomeable. For example, the time it takes a Militia to Call to Arms, run to the 3/9 o'clock expo is half of its timer. If you're trying to deny the expo then just pull out, wait 5 seconds, go back in, focus down their constructed buildings and repeat.

I take it you don't scout a lot, do you?
First of all, En_Fueogo, if we're going to continue debating like this I have to make it clear that you do not strike me as that knowledgeable a player, so please refrain from making comments questioning my experience when you miss basic information like the armor type of tower structures. I'm not trying to offend you, but please be careful not to offend me either.

Now you began with stating that top players have agreed on the game's balance - if you watch some of these replays you will see as a fact that on these maps I mentioned, Human players frequently get away with early expansions despite the opponent trying actively to counter it because the Human player has long lasting Militia reinforcement, the guarding creeps are too easy to kill and the enemy player has to beat through the advantage of base defenses in addition to his normal unit army and stop the both cheap and easily repaired towers from finish construction.

The difference in a small and a large map is that Militia wear out faster the more they have to run, so the enemy player could simply wait for the Militia to expire before attacking, but on a small map the Militia reinforcement don't expire before the creeps are down and the towers are up.

HOW CAN YOU MAKE THIS CLAIM? YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE GAME DESIGNERS INTENDED. ADEQUATE COUNTERS TO WIND WALK ARE AVAILABLE IN ALL RACES:
Human Arcran Tower/Militia
Undead Dust at T1/Nerubian Tower/Acolytes can have imba micro in the mine if you don't suck
Night Elf Moon Wells/Detonate/Gold Mine micro
Orc Burrows
I can make the claim by knowing the game. Also, I was not talking about Wind Walking being a problem for base harassment. A good Orc player will typically creep a few camps while hitting tier 2, then as soon as the Shadow Hunter is out he will continue creeping while the Blademaster stalks the enemy creeping party with his invisibility.

If you know the game's history, you'll know that the changes to the Blademaster came near the end of the balance patches and the change that removed collusion size from the Blademaster during Wind Walk was one of the very last changes before Blizzard stopped actively balancing the game and it was left for the legacy team.

Because of this the Wind Walk change was never really probably tuned and the ability to, say, pick up items while invisible never became a problem until the invisible unit could also pass through enemy units, resulting in the creep's loot disappearing in the blink of an eye. It wasn't really considered either that the free movement of the Blademaster would allow the unit to stand closest to the creep while being entirely out of combat, allowing a player with good timing to use the backstab bonus to take the killing blow out of nowhere, outperforming even ranged nukes such as Death Coil.

And all these abilities come from a single hero skill. Wind Walk alone because of its unique untested mechanics ended up providing more utility than any other hero has in one single hero skill. Hero units provide strategical advantages like auras that increase the strength of your units and hero abilities that can inflect damage, heal units or cause various effects, but nothing comes close to the amount of strategical utility the Blademaster has. This single change alone shifted the Blademaster to the primary Orc hero putting the otherwise long-term favored Far Seer on the dusty shelf.

As I mentioned earlier, the countermeasures to invisibility were never designed to counter the full utility of Wind Walk because the full utility simply wasn't discovered at the time the counters were designed and tuned. For example, an item like Dust of Appearance is a limited charge item that doesn't stop constant invisibility, and instead has an area of effect and a limited duration - intended to stop normal units from becoming invulnerable through invisibility like Shadowmelding or Burrowing.

Furthemore, the race limits on the item also has nothing to do with the Blademaster, but because some races rely on invisibility in the early game - like Night Elf versus Human. If Human had Dust of Appearance in the shop, it would mean Archers and Huntress couldn't Shadowmeld during an early tower rush and that would be devastating to the Night Elf. Human doesn't lack Dust of Appearance because they weren't meant to be able to uncloak the Blademaster, which means the counter isn't even intended to stop an ability like Wind Walk and players just make do with what they have.

This isn't how WC3 works. All levels of play have consistent differences among them and have players who play "outside the box." Yes, Human players generally make an Arcrane Tower in their base. Is it to stop Blademasters? Yes. Is it to stop anyone that wants to try to harass? Yes. Do Humans only make it to stop the Blademaster? NO. It's simply a good investment to prevent harass. That's why Humans make Arcrane Towers against races other than Orc.

Your analogy is false in the sense that you make it seem anticipating things like harassment in build orders is a bad thing. It's simply a good investment to defend your base. A lot of players I'm sure have been in situations where they go to creep and then their base is under heavy T1 pressure from the opponent. When your Night Elf, if you don't block your base, you're going to probably lose Wisps unless you distract from your creeping. So what's an intelligent decision? Blocking your base.

As strategies develop of course the paces of the game change. I don't get what you're trying to put out here. Anyone can use any sort of combination of unit or building to win, that is the goal of the designer. I can go on Battle.Net and make 100 food of Mountain Giants if I want. This doesn't mean I'm fucking with what the designers want or what the designers intended, it just means I'm retarded and going to lose.
The first statement is a bit funny because you did talk about top players earlier, and while I'm on the subject a lot of top players do not bother to "BM proof" their base because base harassment isn't nearly as powerful as creep-jacking like I mentioned earlier in this post.

When talking about balance, we only talk about a maximum level of play because the differences in difficulty makes races imbalanced at different levels of skills (just as you mentioned Orc was often considered overpowered because it's a race that's easier to play). Unless the intend of balance is to make the game balanced at all levels of play (both average and "skill capped"), then you can only assume the game is meant to be balanced at the level of play where player skills no longer are a factor as you can't make balance changes depending on mistakes (e.g. "I'm gonna nerf Zeppelin harassment because this player forgot to focus fire the Zeppelin with his towers").

The truth that has emerged through the game's evolution is that most issues can be overcome by simply getting better, even if the odds are against you. You can stop a BM from creep-jacking your creeping party even if the counter is much weaker than the attacker and learn what to expect from an overplayed strategy.

But the other truth (that I'm trying to make you understand) is that you can't really say "the game is perfectly balanced" because it's not. Warcraft is a game with history and it has had many different stages where the game was played differently. You say that the present state is the most balanced state and imply that no more changes are necessary, but can you prove that any of the other stages the game has been through would not have come to be as balanced if they were left as the final patch like the last balance patch did?

If players were given years to learn to adapt to past cheese strategies as they have been given to the present it would most likely have resulted the same: Players come up with cheese strategies that work more powerfully than Blizzard had intended with their design, but because there were no "nerfs", the players were simply forced to adapt and base their game-play on the overpowered strategy by either using it themselves or countering it whenever faced against it.

Example: In every single present tournament, you see how top players try and overcome the most cheesy strategies. In every past tournament, you saw how top players tried to overcome the past cheesy strategies. The only thing that makes the present different from the past is that there are no more active balancing and the imbalance has simply created a new standard.

That means the game is balanced in the sense that you're willing to accept this new standard, but players who know of the game's history also know that it is just another standard set by another overpowered strategy with the only difference being that there are no longer anyone fixing the game. While you could interpret that as Blizzard considering the game balanced, you could just as well interpret it as Blizzard considering the game playable enough to cease doing major changes to old content.

In fact, it has long been an acknowledged fact that a game like Warcraft 3 can never be balanced and the only balance Blizzard has been trying to achieve is to make every race playable in the one versus one format at top level so that all four races could be presented as competitive (which is what they've managed to accomplish before ceasing their balance patches, despite the races not being that equally balanced such as Undead versus Orc).

Accepting that fact makes the changes in this patch a lot easier to understand, Blizzard acknowledges that there still are some large imbalances left in the game (such as Ensnare and Wind Walk) but major changes in an attempt to rebalance these abilities could easily shatter the race's ability to compete at high level (and a wrong nerf to units like the BM and Raiders really could shove Orc right down the food chain again).
 
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Wait and how did those people with pirated WC3 managed to patch their games before?

A lot of people choose not to out of: a, the fact that a lot of people on Garena NEVER patch WC3 due to their region and b, the fact that a lot of people on Garena NEVER go on BNet.

To elaborate on "a", a couple of years ago I was talking to some guy from BR and he said everyone in his city (because there were like 50 of them who all game together) that plays WC3 uses Garena. They don't even bother going on BNet or trying to connect to BNet because it's just convenient this way.

Also, I know a lot of Chinese players used to prefer a certain patch to play on due to "balance issues." I also know a few tournaments will play specific patches because new patches require more practice and getting used to.
 

Dr Super Good

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Execpt those groups are isolated enough that everyone in them knows why they play a non lattest/offical patch and would not complain about not using the lattest patch.

The only people who would complain are those trying to play the game like one does normally but on a thid party network.
 
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Why even discussing that Garena is the best place to play War3 since 2007 maybe (when it was called GG client). Tournaments r played there, pro names u may have heard are played there, Dotards can enjoy 50+ rooms each full with 225 people, actual good players in Dota too are there, some custom games r played there. War3 BNet is a synonym of noobishness, cause it's pointless to stay there.

Everyone who actually plays war3 not just some no fun custom games goes there. I dont know why ppl use Bnet even for custom games where maybe tehre would be better and more players again in Garena, The latter completely replaces the need for bnet except ladder but who plays war3 ladder these days.. *yeah some do ,few)
 

Dr Super Good

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Cause battlenet has been patched where as that crappy place has not? Only real morons would not use the proper designed service to play a game and rather use a potentially dangerous one. There are tons of very good players on battlenet. The only possible reason good players would not use battlenet is for playing melee games cause of all the hacks on battlenet but those do not affect custom games at all (as custom games are so different).
 
Level 22
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^Lol Do you know how many people and official gaming events are done on Garena? Do you understand what it is at all? It has nothing to do with those old crappy private servers that overwrite some exe files to start some client lol...

Whoever has original War3, updates through battle net and still goes to Garena... it's not the client's problem someone uses old patch. Sorry it's all in the brain of the person who is playing Garena with old war3 patch, everyone else who knwos what good gaming means prefers garena and ofc plays latest patch. Garena has updates every week to the point that i wonder what so much is being updated every time I start it.. and it's not a private server, smth much different and better.. I'm saying that mb 70% of those who still play war3 are in garena
 

Dr Super Good

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Just because lots of people use it does not make a good reason for its existance. The services use should only extended to individuals who want to play in restricted groups. Any large population has no reason at all to be using it as battlenet offers exactly the same features it does but nativly intigrated (thus faster).

Luckilly Blizzard has fixed such problems from ever occuring again thanks to no LAN and BattleNet 2.0.
 
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