(New) Raw Tech-Tree Contest

[PurplePoot]

Who said you can't use WarCraft III Models or Icons?

 

[Ghost765]

"-You may not use a single icon, or model already used by one of the original four races"

 

[PurplePoot]

"-You may not use a single icon, or model already used by one of the original four races"

Who said you can't use WarCraft III Models or Icons?

I repeat.

 

[Ghost765]

Scyth-Master

 

[PurplePoot]

You people just don't get it...

Since when do four melee races equal WarCraft III?

 

[Ghost765]

ok, ill give an example of myself. if this gets approved, i plan on making a human based Imperial Legion race. now, there arent that many icons that are human themed that arent included in the human race. infact the only ones that ive found are the bandits.
so, just to slightly lighten the load, i say we use a few icons/models that are included in the 4 melee races.

 

[PurplePoot]

You could always just make a different race than Humans MK II.

 

[Ghost765]

im not THAT imaginative T_T

 

[Gausslander]

Obviously it's from Warcraft 3, don't be sarcastic over a contest's rules.

And don't whine about not being able to use a single melee race icon or model.

There's no reason to bitch when you have infinite resources anywhere else.

And why would you make a slightly altered human race for a contest that allows imported models? Tell me that.

 

[Ghost765]

its not slightly altered. and im not whining. infact, i have in mind almost the entire tech tree, aswell as their models.
ive written them down in case this gets approved.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Infinite, maybe. Quality and/or useful? Not so much.

Blizzard icons/models have a certain 'quality' that is sometimes hard to mimic. To give an example, let's say I make a Forsaken race. I will probably use the Necromancer/Kel'thuzad model; but it won't be a caster. Instead, it would act as a "Core Unit", summoning buildings and zombie workers.
Isn't that the kind of 'originality' that you're looking for? Forcing me to use a sub-par or alternate model would only lower how it works/looks; the Necromancer is perfect.

Same with some other models; I could resize, recolor, add attachments, and voila! Something old with an interesting twist, and with a completely different purpose.

~~~

I think we understand where that specific rule comes from, we're just trying to show you another side to the story.

 

[Gausslander]

Infinite, maybe. Quality and/or useful? Not so much.

Blizzard icons/models have a certain 'quality' that is sometimes hard to mimic. To give an example, let's say I make a Forsaken race. I will probably use the Necromancer/Kel'thuzad model; but it won't be a caster. Instead, it would act as a "Core Unit", summoning buildings and zombie workers.
Isn't that the kind of 'originality' that you're looking for? Forcing me to use a sub-par or alternate model would only lower how it works/looks; the Necromancer is perfect.

Same with some other models; I could resize, recolor, add attachments, and voila! Something old with an interesting twist, and with a completely different purpose.

~~~

I think we understand where that specific rule comes from, we're just trying to show you another side to the story.

Lol.

I counter your argument with the fact that there is a quality forsaken worker model. And there are over 780 creeps and a complete set of custom dranei, and blizzard dranei models (in-game, usable).

You can use attachements on suited custom models as well. It's not that hard to search.

If you find that this contest is to difficult to compete in then by all means don't join. Your reasons are so trivial.

You realize I'm not allowing melee race models because it allows imports. Don't you? Import a model, import an icon, done.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Ah yes, there are various quality models, quite certainly. But say I don't want to use a generic 'build stuff + gather resources' worker. Since (it seems that) we can't make our own stuff, I'd be basically forced to either go with this Skeleton Peasant (doesn't suit my purposes of originality well enough) or... Use something weird, like the Void Walker or Revenant? Meh.

Draenei? *vomits*

Hey, no need to lay down an ultimatum; I'll join if I want it and compete per the instructions. I'm just working towards (hopefully) getting a more optimized and perfected set of rules and guidelines before it starts.

You realize that people may not want to import, or that it might be more difficult that for others? I.e. for me, I can't just download whenever I want; I have to plan it out (long story). Whereas I can peruse the existing MPQ's and use a combination of Wc3 race models + creep models (which I concede, there are quite a lot of) to make a nice, fitting Wc3 race. I rather dislike the hodge-podge of different art-styles that would come with many different imports (unless I was careful).

Again, not trying to be whiny, just describing a point of view.

 

[Gausslander]

So you're basically saying that you want to give up your entire option, and privilege of using imported models because you would rather use the MPQ? Understandable of course...

So, basically, you're putting models you download on a floppy and then downloading them to your computer? That's what I'm guessing.

 

[Kyrbi0]

1. Not necessarily... I definitely enjoy using imports; often you can get new and exciting models that don't exist in the MPQ. But to me, the MPQ is more reliable and is of a definite quality; no hunting, easily accessible, etc. If anything, this kind of contest generally works under the assumption that anything in the MPQ is allowed, with Imports being allowed here and there to make it more interesting.

2. Naw, I use a Flash Drive. But I can't download on my home computers, so I have to either visit A: my friends house or B: the public library. And gas money is expensive nowadays.

 

[Gausslander]

Well I was close enough.

This contest is titled (New) Raw Tech-Tree Contest.

I assume you look into that title a bit more.

This is completely different then the tech-tree contests, and completely different from the majority of contests.

Why? Because the tech-tree contests were a mockery of newbish users and poorly designed races.

How? With your advice I can redesign the rules to make them as original and full-proof as possible.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I assume you look into that title a bit more.

I think you mean "suggest"

And although I mostly agree with you, that the other contests required too much work for one man, and as a result were "mockeries", I protest that in general; users like Matyko, Just_Spectating and Red Baron made excellent techtrees, even with no custom imports.

How? With your advice I can redesign the rules to make them as original and full-proof as possible.

This doesn't make grammatical sense, either, but I thought you were against my suggestions. How in the world can my suggestions (to which you are averse) help make your contest better? I thought you already had what you wanted?...

(BTW, I will be absent from the computer for perhaps the rest of the day, so if you reply to this and I don't, it's not cowardice )

 

[Gausslander]

The post was written as a faq.

Assume can also mean an Assumption, as I would assume that you look into that title a bit more.

Your words like "grammatical, cowardice, and averse" just make me think that your are taking the stance of someone who wants to come off as smarter then someone else. The truth of the matter is, that those "excellent" techtrees are the things being laughed at. Sure you like them, but not many people can bare to even try them. As I see it without imports and spells, a tech-tree is more of an idea then an actual product.

And that faq was directed at more people then just you, Kyrbio0, it was directed to numerous persons. I need actual suggestions to move the rulebook forward a yard, and I need people actually thinking about the contest rather then their argumentative stance.

 

[PurplePoot]

Kyrbi0, as much as you may hate Scyth's grammatical errors, they're completely irrelevant to the contest suggestion thread, so please keep them out of it.

About your suggestions, I'm starting to agree with Scyth's point that this is supposed to be a different take on things, rather than Techtree Contest #3.

Scyth,

• Perhaps format the rules a little nicer, with [list] tags, [box] tags, [box] tags, and such.
• About custom triggered spells, you should specify that while the coding does not count for the contest, the originality and effect do.
• Another clarification, with the import limit, it would be better to say "You may import as many models, icons, and skins as you like, but the map's size must stay within the 4meg Multiplayer limit."
• Are you are are you not going to allow resources from Wc3campaigns and potentially xgm (xgm does have a good amount of unique material).
• Perhaps some more specifications, such as a player owned shop should be specified? However, I think it would lead to some more originality if beyond that it was free form, so you could have races with different tiering for their techtree and such.
• Do upgraded buildings count towards the minimum building limit? (IE: Is Town Hall/Keep/Castle 1 building or 3?)

 

[Gausslander]

Kyrbi0, as much as you may hate Scyth's grammatical errors, they're completely irrelevant to the contest suggestion thread, so please keep them out of it.

About your suggestions, I'm starting to agree with Scyth's point that this is supposed to be a different take on things, rather than Techtree Contest #3.

Scyth,

• Perhaps format the rules a little nicer, with [list] tags, [box] tags, [box] tags, and such.
• About custom triggered spells, you should specify that while the coding does not count for the contest, the originality and effect do.
• Another clarification, with the import limit, it would be better to say "You may import as many models, icons, and skins as you like, but the map's size must stay within the 4meg Multiplayer limit."
• Are you are are you not going to allow resources from Wc3campaigns and potentially xgm (xgm does have a good amount of unique material).
• Perhaps some more specifications, such as a player owned shop should be specified? However, I think it would lead to some more originality if beyond that it was free form, so you could have races with different tiering for their techtree and such.
• Do upgraded buildings count towards the minimum building limit? (IE: Is Town Hall/Keep/Castle 1 building or 3?)

Thank you! With suggestions like those I can make this contest approvable.

 

[Ghost765]

Are you are are you not going to allow resources from Wc3campaigns and potentially xgm (xgm does have a good amount of unique material).

i believe that boldized are should be or. what about people who cannot make jass/trigger enhanced spells? could be copy n paste from existing custom spells?

 

[Gausslander]

Are you are are you not going to allow resources from Wc3campaigns and potentially xgm (xgm does have a good amount of unique material).

i believe that boldized are should be or. what about people who cannot make jass/trigger enhanced spells? could be copy n paste from existing custom spells?

These questions are becoming mind-boggling...

I believe that I already stated in the rules that spells are not to be imported. Mostly due to the fact that coding is excluded from the official judging of the map, so there really is no point in using custom spells, anyway.

 

[Ghost765]

-You can make custom triggered spells, but the coding will be excluded from the official judging. The effect and originality of the spell, however, will be included in it.

the coding wont, but the effects will count towards the final score.

 

[Gausslander]

Effects can be made without triggers...

 

[Ghost765]

and originality. so a holy light with a different sfx isnt really original now is it?

 

[Gausslander]

Read the thread. Originality has just about as much to do with the name as anything else.

 

[Ghost765]

" An original work is one not received from others nor one copied based on the work of others. ..."

the work of "others" here is blizzard's standard spells. whats BAD about including imported spells in the scoring process? we're importing icons/models/skins, so i dont see any reason why we shouldnt import a spell thats similarily themed around our custom race.

 

[Gausslander]

Because they do not matter. At all.

 

[Ghost765]

then why are spells effects/originality included at all?

 

[Ghost765]

then why make spells?
since it doesnt count towards your score

 

[PurplePoot]

Why should you be able to import spells?

It isn't original if you're just copy+pasting someone else's idea+work...

 

[Gausslander]

Why should you be able to import spells?

It isn't original if you're just copy+pasting someone else's idea+work...

Yes... indeed.

I revoke my decision, again.

 

[Ghost765]

if the imported spell is similarily themed around our race, it would be a nice addition.
just changing minor details of blizzard's spells isnt really original now is it?

ill delete my posts or w/e

 

[PurplePoot]

• You can do some pretty cool stuff only using default abilities. I'm not sure if you ever saw any of FlyFightFlea's work back on wc3sear.ch (or if you were around back then), but he had some of the most original abilities in general, no triggers used (Well, I think one used a trigger to add a dummy ability on learn just to provide an icon, but that's not exactly difficult, nor the bulk of the spell).
• Why not learn to trigger, or if you already know how to, write your own stuff? The point of a contest is for you to show how good you are at doing X, not how good you are at importing other peoples' stuff.
• For the same reasons as the point above, I don't think what models you use should be counted in your originality judging, but only whether or not the race is coherent with the models, and more importantly, the units they represent.

 

[Ghost765]

well. i dont want to put up an argument. ill give it my best, if this gets accepted.

 

[Devine]

-Can we merge races? (for example ... Goblin with Kobolt race)
-We can't use models from one of the 4 races but can we use the sfx or misile models?
-If i have something in mind now, create a model about it now, upload it on the hive, can i use it in case this contest gets approved?
and just to be clear, because some posts confused me, we CAN use creep models, including sfx or misiles?

 

[Ghost765]

we just cant use models/icons from the original melee races.

 

[Kwah]

But what about something, like the necro attack model.

Or a model that is shared, between a race and neutral hostile.

 

[Gausslander]

I already stated before, unit icons, ability icons, and unit and building and hero models. You can use SFX.

EDIT: But that, too, will count against your originality.

 

[Ghost765]

ok, let me get this straight.
we CANNOT import spells
we CAN modify any ability
spells DO COUNT towards your score (originality)

 

[~Void~]

I'm in! Add judging criteria please

 

[Gausslander]

There already is judging criteria... check the first post.

 

[Kyrbi0]

The post was written as a faq.

?? "Frequently-Asked Questions"? I'm sorry, I honestly don't get this one. I was under the assumption (haha) that this was a proposed Contest, like a WIP.

Your words like "grammatical, cowardice, and averse" just make me think that your are taking the stance of someone who wants to come off as smarter then someone else.

No, just trying to set myself apart from any other random newb (because I'm sure you've all noted my glaring "0" Karma) who would spout the equivalent of "u need 2 hav it moar liek the other tech-contestss dis is lame cahnge it naow". If I use proper grammar (no offense) and sprinkle a few bits of nice vocab in there, it (hopefully) let's everyone know that I am not sub-intelligent and can be logicked with reasonably.

...Yes I know 'logicked' isn't a word and that refutes what I just said. >_>

The truth of the matter is, that those "excellent" techtrees are the things being laughed at. Sure you like them, but not many people can bare to even try them. As I see it without imports and spells, a tech-tree is more of an idea then an actual product.

That's somewhat of a generalization. I completely agree with you, mostly; a lot of the techtrees weren't worth wasting the paper they were brainstormed on. However, I think a techtree is more than just cool, innovative spells and interesting character models; I see it also as new ideas and interesting ways to execute stuff. I.e., Matyko's Rotting Tide consisted simply of massive waves of skeletal Undead and Necromancers; yet to balance, each unit constantly dies unless near the main base (or a special "Fragment Carrier").
~Now to me, that's kinda cool. I'm not sure why anyone would think it's "stupid", because it's an innovative usage of Object Editor fields. That kind of ingenuity could only be helped by custom spells/models/triggering/etc.

Regardless, I'm arguing a lost cause here. I have misconstrued (again, not trying to be "smart", just trying not to be "stupid") the meaning of this contest, and have made a futile effort to bend it into another techtree contest. But really;

...I need actual suggestions to move the rulebook forward a yard, and I need people actually thinking about the contest rather then their argumentative stance.

I'd like to think that I made "actual suggestions"; they just weren't the suggestions you wanted to hear, or were willing to entertain. I was was thinking of the contest, just not how you saw it. And "argumentative"? Not likely. Simply a miscommunication on my part.

Which is only to be expected, since I was attempting to modify the paramaters rather drastically (i.e. you're right, you are making a distinct contest from the other "Techtree Contests").

Regardless (lol, twice in a post), I can see now how I was wrong. My bad. Don't take this as invitation to berate me further; please. It's kind of annoying.

~~~Off-Topic:

Kyrbi0, as much as you may hate Scyth's grammatical errors, they're completely irrelevant to the contest suggestion thread, so please keep them out of it.

Ouch... You make one comment, no harping, and you're still shot down... :/
I mean, "hate" is such a strong word; I just feel that proper grammar makes you appear more mature, especially in a place where only your written text provides a link to who you are on the other side of the screen.

~~~On-Topic:
Anyway, don't mind me, go on ahead. I just didn't share your vision (which is fine, not all are alike).

 

[JanSze]

hrhr in the first post it looks like you get -40 rep if you make the first place could you make a plus in front of the 40? It looks silly

 

[PurplePoot]

Ouch... You make one comment, no harping, and you're still shot down... :/
I mean, "hate" is such a strong word; I just feel that proper grammar makes you appear more mature, especially in a place where only your written text provides a link to who you are on the other side of the screen.

As much as I'd agree with you, posts like that and the first half of the above quote are still unproductive.

You're entitled to opinions, but randomly posting them... blah.

@Jan

It could always be
First Prize: 40 rep
(etc)

 

[Kyrbi0]

Agree'd. Let's just drop it (until Scyth-Master comes on and verbally abuses me ); I've stated my position and quasi-apology.

 

[Ghost765]

ok, can any1 answer my question for clarification?
we CANNOT Import spells
we CAN modify any wc3 spells
spells DONT count towards ANY score

 

[PurplePoot]

Spells count as part of the race's originality.

However, there's no coding score etc.

 

[Gausslander]

Agree'd. Let's just drop it (until Scyth-Master comes on and verbally abuses me ); I've stated my position and quasi-apology.

I will do no such thing, I respect your ingenuity.

?? "Frequently-Asked Questions"? I'm sorry, I honestly don't get this one. I was under the assumption (haha) that this was a proposed Contest, like a WIP.

... Written like a faq, not literally a faq. I should've said a Q&A, which coincidentally is almost exactly the same as a faq... -.-

I'd like to think that I made "actual suggestions"; they just weren't the suggestions you wanted to hear, or were willing to entertain. I was was thinking of the contest, just not how you saw it. And "argumentative"? Not likely. Simply a miscommunication on my part.

It came off as argumentative. Regardless, I retract my previous statement.

Which is only to be expected

Lol yeah actually the retraction was expected, but that's besides the point. (-:

Ouch... You make one comment, no harping, and you're still shot down... :/
I mean, "hate" is such a strong word; I just feel that proper grammar makes you appear more mature, especially in a place where only your written text provides a link to who you are on the other side of the screen.

I can use proper grammar. Done. There is no need to write such fluttery, especially when commenting on a thread posted by a writer.

~~~On-Topic:
Anyway, don't mind me, go on ahead. I just didn't share your vision (which is fine, not all are alike).

Your vision is originality done by using only edited abilities and unit object editing fields.

hrhr in the first post it looks like you get -40 rep if you make the first place could you make a plus in front of the 40? It looks silly

I'll fix that.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Yay! Sanity is alive! Good to see we must not leave mortal foes, Scyth-Master.

Ok, I'm done. Carry on!