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Map Resource Reviews and Approval

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Do me a favor. Rather than looking at the title and assuming this is a stupid rant and skipping over it all, and then flaming me for bringing this up...
Please read this. All of it. Don't skim, or you won't understand. Thanks in advance.

Today, I decided to look at the maps section. I almost cried when I saw that a mod had approved this:

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/resources_new/maps/6443/

What. The. Hell. I looked and saw that a mod had approved a map that was a literal clone of 100 other maps. Nothing new, nothing unique; the submission didn't even have a damn description! That map is just one example amongst many.

From what I see, a map is approved under the following conditions:
-Map doesn't crash
-Map isn't laced with viruses
-Map is yours.

So, I could submit a 64x64 dirt map with 4 footmen? And it could be approvable?


Wc3campaigns, while dead now, had the best map reviewal and moderation ever. And I'm not just saying that because I've been there for close to 2 years. I look at Hive's map section and think "Is this Hive or epicwar?". Yes, I understand that a LOT of maps are submitted everyday. Yes, I also understand people have lives. Yes, i understand Wc3 is dying by the day. But Hive has a LOT of members, and I'm sure at least a few are able-minded enough to do some REAL reviewing.

And not to mention the map section has all the approved maps still there, but I hear that's to be fixed. But you know, I think a lot of those need to be re-looked at. And for real this time.

I know this site isn't Wc3c. I know you aren't nearly as strict with your submissions. But seriously, you guys are letting shit with legs walk in and be accepted, and it's seriously cluttering maps with potential. Rather than letting 100 clones of the same map, or poorly made attempts at maps in, why don't you accept 4 quality maps of some decency and let the other ones go away.

Also, some maps should be instantly detectable as removable. Run Kitty Run DOTA? I mean, come on. No offense, but that just screams "Clone! Clone! Poor! Blah!". And even still, there are maps that have been in queue for MONTHS, with little to no activity whatsoever. And it doesn't look like you can even bump resources there, so what's the point of submitting? I put my map up in there, and within 3 days it was on the second page.

I think the admins need to find a team of 10-20 people to review maps on a regular basis. It doesn't even have to be daily! And it doesn't have to be thorough either. Just a 15 minute scan of whether the map is unique at all, whether it's decently made, etc. From there, it's passed into a second area where the reviewers do a more in-depth play. They check for major flaws, major imbalances, etc. If it passes there, it reaches a 3rd and final step, where it's rated on a grading scale matching its genre. I wrote one for Gamerisle a while back. It's lost now that the site died, but I could re-write one. It's basically like grading a test. You go through that genre's ratings and check them off. If the map receives a 'passing' grade, then it's in. Things to look for would be minor errors, polish, uniqueness, quality, credits, etc.

It sounds hard and lengthy. It's not though. Once the map section is cleaned of all the approved maps, you could go through those and look. If a map is obviously going to pass steps 2 and 3, then just let it pass. This would ONLY be for maps that have already been 'approved' on the previous system.

I'm sure all this has been brought up before. But you know, I don't care. I think that there needs to be some action taken. The first step would be to filter the 'approved' maps from those in queue. From there, re-filter the 'approved' maps. Remove ones that suck or need improvement. From there, finish filtering the remaining maps for final judgement. After that, go through the queue.

I understand that this process isn't an overnight deal. It might even take a month or 3. But if, while the 'approved' maps are being moved, the admins start getting people together to do reviewing, then this could move quite well.

Good luck to you. And if you ever decide to do anything like this, then I wouldn't mind doing reviewing. I'm strict though. Oh heavens.

[/rant]
 
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Here are the exact rules for map submission. I think it's okay if the Admins want any quality of map approved. I personally agree with you that any, finished, bug free, map should not be approved. They should have some quality about them. I follow the rules on map approval though.

Maybe we could have a system implemented (when Ralle finishes the new Map Section) where we (map mods) can approve the map, and also recommend it. The recommended ones will go in a different section than that of the just approved maps. And yet another option to submit the map for Directors Choice or something.
 
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Rules... Yes. But I mean come on. They're letting anything that can be played for more than 5 minutes in that isn't profane.

You want rules for map submission? Check out Wc3c.

I do like the idea of Approved/Recommended/Reviewer's Choice sections. Although the approved section should still be filtered out some.
 
Level 27
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I actually agree that a large amount of approved maps shouldn't be approved, they just follow the technical guidelines.
My two sides:
One side: We should start enforcing quality standards on maps, just like icons, skins, and models. Maps should contain as much, if not more quality than the other resources since they are pretty much what all the resources are made for.
The other side: It shouldn't really offend you if a map is approved unless it is stolen or offensive/against site rules. While you may disagree with the moderator's decision, I honestly doubt it causes anyone pain.
--donut3.5--
 
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It doesn't directly, but it's a little offensive. At least to me. I just don't like the idea that the map I put hours upon hours upon hours (too many to count) into my map, nights of no sleep over the summer finishing, etc. [/end drama], gets the same exact privilege as a map that someone spent 2 hours on (after ripping the map off of B.net). While that is how our world works (we all know the kids in school who are still in the same grade as you but do nothing to earn it), but why should we conform? I think seperate sections for the better maps is a good idea. Split it in three like Gilles said.

Approved: For everything that gets approved
Recommended: For the better, as recommended by some of the reviewers
Reviewer's Choice: For the best, as recommended by most/all of the reviewers.

We also need a quality check. I would love nothing more than to see all the crappy clones removed, all the loaps that are almost exactly the same destroyed... but it won't happen. But we can still pick out the better from the bad, and I think that really needs to be done.
 
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As stated in the rules: "Virtually any and all maps, regardless of talent. Every Warcraft modder must start somewhere. Low-quality maps therefore, will not be ignored providing that obvious effort was put into creating them."

I agree with this. Any map that is playable and working should be accepted. Although I really like my idea (I'm going to toot my own horn here) of an approved section and a recommended section.

Edit: For reviews choice, I would just have it so that a Moderator can submit the map to the Admin/other mods. It will be voted upon/discussed and placed in either the Recommended, or the Directors Choice section (or reviews choice, or whatever).
 

Ralle

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I agree that changes are needed. I am soon going to "revamp" the maps section. Take a look at the models and icons section. All resources gets a Moderator Rating which can help you filter resources. That way we can filter away wc3s if you want quality and such.
What do you think?

Thank you very much for your input!
Ralle
 
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I've seen the icon section. It's an interesting setup, and it's very organized. The moderator rating is also very helpful, but should probably be changed to Reviewer's Rating in this case. That method of sorting will work fine, though I still think there needs to be a top-o-the-crop map section. I believe it will help maps with a lot of potential really get some of the attention they need or deserve.

It's hard to see how that would work well, though... Some reviewers might hate the genre/gameplay/etc. of a particular map, even if it's of the utmost quality, and therefore might not recommend it. So, recommendation should be based almost 100% on quality. Of course, if the the game itself is no good then it probably won't, but in no way should the recommendation be based around the type of game... Which means, technically, a LOAP could actually make it in. But that's unlikely =p

Anyways, I'd be happy to assist the reformation with ideas and suggestions and stuff. Since custom maps are the only reason Wc3 is still alive as much as it is today, I think it should definitely have emphasis put on it.

Oh, and if you need reviewers, I'd be happy to help out. I was one at Wc3c, but since nobody submits their maps there anymore, I wouldn't mind picking up where I left off here.
 
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While we are talking about maps and ripped ones anyway. About the quality.

Would you if you find a Parasite 1/2/etc map which is NOT made by DarkShoGun (I think his friend Viper is making updates too) please block it or note me or something? Because he, me and the rest of the Paracrew don't like-
A) 'Improved' ones like all of a sudden the Reaper, Celestial and Arcane Suit is in it and only useable by red or something.
B) Rigged ones, like red walks around with a 10.000-999.999 damage peasant or uber spells.
C) Just try to sort out the legal ones from the illegal ones, please.
D) Lame ones like that +Parasite_3+ map which was actually a P2 map but with some little (not working) extras. Which was blocked off course.

~Paracrew.
 
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It's MasterHaosis he has way too low approval standard...
He approves almost everthing.

Callahan for your information, I every night report in my admin contact threat aboyt my work so everyone can check me. And I talking almost all time with Ralle and Wolverabid. They agrees with my decitions. Wolverabid told me several times per day that Ralle wants most maps approved, so stop blame me all of you, this is not first time Callahan !!! If you have any problem with me talk with administrators and Ralle, nothere public to speak my name as I am some criminal here, I approved almost everything !!1
PEOPLE READ RULES !!! THERE SAID EVERYONE CAN POST ANY MAP NO MATTER QWALITY. ONLY STOLEN MAPS (WITHOUT FULL CREDIT TO AUTHOR) OR MAP HAS VIRUS OR MAPS WHO CHRUSH WAR CRAFT WILL BE REJECT.Of course maps wath break general rules also will be rejected. People for your information I rejected many maps, and taking with their authors how to improve maps. I have what to do, for difference both of you whos don't have smarter jobs instead write stupidness.
 

Ralle

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Callahan for your information, I every night report in my admin contact threat aboyt my work so everyone can check me. And I talking almost all time with Ralle and Wolverabid. They agrees with my decitions. Wolverabid told me several times per day that Ralle wants most maps approved, so stop blame me all of you, this is not first time Callahan !!! If you have any problem with me talk with administrators and Ralle, nothere public to speak my name as I am some criminal here, I approved almost everything !!1
PEOPLE READ RULES !!! THERE SAID EVERYONE CAN POST ANY MAP NO MATTER QWALITY. ONLY STOLEN MAPS (WITHOUT FULL CREDIT TO AUTHOR) OR MAP HAS VIRUS OR MAPS WHO CHRUSH WAR CRAFT WILL BE REJECT.Of course maps wath break general rules also will be rejected. People for your information I rejected many maps, and taking with their authors how to improve maps. I have what to do, for difference both of you whos don't have smarter jobs instead write stupidness.
QFT

Callahan, MasterHaosis is not your problem, the rules are.. Suggest rule change instead of attacking MasterHaosis personally
 
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Callahan for your information, I every night report in my admin contact threat aboyt my work so everyone can check me. And I talking almost all time with Ralle and Wolverabid. They agrees with my decitions. Wolverabid told me several times per day that Ralle wants most maps approved, so stop blame me all of you, this is not first time Callahan !!! If you have any problem with me talk with administrators and Ralle, nothere public to speak my name as I am some criminal here, I approved almost everything !!1
PEOPLE READ RULES !!! THERE SAID EVERYONE CAN POST ANY MAP NO MATTER QWALITY. ONLY STOLEN MAPS (WITHOUT FULL CREDIT TO AUTHOR) OR MAP HAS VIRUS OR MAPS WHO CHRUSH WAR CRAFT WILL BE REJECT.Of course maps wath break general rules also will be rejected. People for your information I rejected many maps, and taking with their authors how to improve maps. I have what to do, for difference both of you whos don't have smarter jobs instead write stupidness.


Oh god, some things stopped me from properly reading this post but I skimmed the basic info.


A rating by the resource mods would be nice
 
QFT

Callahan, MasterHaosis is not your problem, the rules are.. Suggest rule change instead of attacking MasterHaosis personally
No problem guys, Master Haosis is a nice guy very friendly and all, it's ok with him.
I understand he do the job you don't and if it were you i guess you'll approve maps too.
Just if i had to submit a map of mine i would like a proper review.I already know that my map don't countains virus,don't crash the game and that i didn't stole it.

And i refers to mod's approval to dl a map.If you approve lame map that is playable but that has nothing special i won't trust approval anymore.
 
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Yeah man I understand this stupid sounds sometimes but I must write this 3 impoertsnt things. When map is ,,stupid'' I just write comments. Man as prove I tested map I always explain map, you know. I explain what I like the most, and I always put how I respect author's hard work. Becasue when you made map of course you put hard work. And what will be if I wrote: Your map is shit, it's stupid, but you can't better or you already put alot of work. I respect authoers work there. I reject many maps and they resend me PM and we discuss. I respect everyone. But this is not excuse I want better proper review. Anyway you will play that map and you will see and write comment if you like. That's why exist moderators comment (you belive this or not, but we post about map approval), and user's comment. SO you play map and post your proper comment. There is not need to watch moderator's review. he exist only to confirm map approval or rejectal ! I also post in users comment things like you. When I have time of course. You must know all i have alot of works there. And I do only what rules and amdinistration told me. So they agree with my decition as you saw. But I told map is yours /seems no edited.... This means noone can be sure in this. he can like several users (not matter names) to steal map, and someone show me ral map authors and I will change comment and reject map. That's why ,,seems'' I must belive all users. So when you post map I mustnot doubt at you, I will accept like your until someone show me or I find different ! That's calling abusinf trust and stealing. So if anyone see such things feel free and send me PM (I won't reveal you it is not matter how I know and who told me it's matter I know) and I will do some proper action. That's point ofmy job. Shortly: I must follow and support rules and they are for everyone !!!
 
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In my honest opinion, maps should be judged on quality... Maps are like classmates, and approval is like graduation. If the student is a real dumbass who doesn't understand anything in any of his classes, then he will not graduate. Handicaps shouldn't be given to idiots in classes (and they aren't, as far as I know), aswell as they shouldn't be given to crappy maps in the map database. If a map sucks, it sucks, regardless of the creator's skill.

If we have a 'Recommended' section, and a 'Regular maps' section, I doubt anyone would browse through the 'Regular maps' section to find an interesting custom game. Most would just look through the Recommended or Director's Choice maps... so why keep all of the useless bad-quality maps? I honestly think that there should be a quality rule, both in presentation and gameplay.
 
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In my honest opinion, maps should be judged on quality... Maps are like classmates, and approval is like graduation. If the student is a real dumbass who doesn't understand anything in any of his classes, then he will not graduate. Handicaps shouldn't be given to idiots in classes (and they aren't, as far as I know), aswell as they shouldn't be given to crappy maps in the map database. If a map sucks, it sucks, regardless of the creator's skill.

If we have a 'Recommended' section, and a 'Regular maps' section, I doubt anyone would browse through the 'Regular maps' section to find an interesting custom game. Most would just look through the Recommended or Director's Choice maps... so why keep all of the useless bad-quality maps? I honestly think that there should be a quality rule, both in presentation and gameplay.
You would keep the low quality maps so that they at least are on the site and may get some notice. I would rather do away with low quality too, but if we really want everyone to get a chance, we should makes sections. IMO.
 
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I think the best idea in this whole thread by far was bringing back the director's choice. It was a great way to cut out the BS and it really cuts down on the work that mods need. What could happen for example is that if a mod approves a map, he has an option to nominate it for director's choice. If so, then other mods will see it and review it (people should also feel more inclined to review maps if they know it's a high quality map). If they feel so fit they'll put in DC. Perhaps only admins and highly placed mods will be able to move something to DC.
 
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People need to stop giving so much crap to map resource mods, map approval is probably the most tedious, time consuming job on the hive. They need to be given more respect and thanks. If a mod rejects your map don't start flaming them like an immature noob, instead be grateful they took the time to review your map and use their suggestions to improve it. So start giving the mods more credit, they do the job that you don't want to do.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.
 
Last edited:
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It's not the mods, it's the rules. If you have issues, take it up with Ralle and Woverabid about the rules.
 
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Please read this. All of it. Don't skim, or you won't understand. Thanks in advance.
Rant noted; input appreciated.

Let's touch upon some the highlights and try to sum things up as they stand right now.
I know you aren't nearly as strict with your submissions.
Quite true. This discussion has been hashed, rehashed, boiled, reboiled and over-boiled any number of times, both by our community at large, as well as the staff. Everyone has differing opinions as to what should or shouldn't be accepted. As Gilles previously referenced:

The Hive Workshop > FAQ > THW Rules > Resource Section Rules > Map Rules
What will be accepted:
Virtually any and all maps, regardless of talent. Every Warcraft modder must start somewhere. Low-quality maps therefore, will not be ignored providing that obvious effort was put into creating them.
Any map may be ignored by resource moderators at their discretion for any valid reason at any time.
Once again every individual's opinion is different as to precisely where the "low-quality" cut off line is to be drawn. Ralle's opinion is that most maps should be approved, the administration and staff are (for the most part) in agreement. The cut off line is then drawn by Map Resource Moderators on a case-by case basis.

I know this site isn't Wc3c. I know you aren't nearly as strict with your submissions.
Precisely. Our rules are (in part) derived from those of the former wc3sear. The Hive Workshop has striven to achieve a middle balance between the extreme ends of the spectrum. Both Darky's wc3s and EpicWars are examples of "resource dumps." Anything goes. wc3c on the other hand, is VERY strict: Your map's not perfect (as judged by our standards)? Take it down the road. So, here at THW we're trying to keep all options open. To misquote Abraham Lincoln:

"You can please some of the people all of the time, and please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please All of the people ALL of the time."

Thus, the high-wire, tiptoe balancing act continues on a daily basis.

I looked and saw that a mod had approved a map that was a literal clone of 100 other maps. Nothing new, nothing unique...
He's a new map mod and, in my opinion, has been trying his best to approve or reject submissions based on the existing guidelines.

The first step would be to filter the 'approved' maps from those in queue. From there, re-filter the 'approved' maps.
I am soon going to "revamp" the maps section. Take a look at the models and icons section. All resources gets a Moderator Rating which can help you filter resources.
That's part of the solution. When our intrepid webmaster incorporates the map resource section into the forum proper, all of the filter, search and moderation features used in THW's icon and model sections will then be applied to maps as well.

Further revision to the map section (and the map approval process) will continue to take place over time based on value-added experience and community input.
 
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I think it's great that you're reaching into the lower ends of the spectrum. However, some things are just "... Wow."

He's a new map mod and, in my opinion, has been trying his best to approve or reject submissions based on the existing guidelines.
He's told me he's new and all the work he's done. It's great what he's doing, and I don't blame him for my problem; I just don't like the current reviewal standards. It's ok to go low for the greater part of the community, but going too low just puts you back to Epicwar and Wc3s.


I look forward to the new map section and (I'll say it again), I'd be more than happy to help re-review maps that may be in question, and review new and in-queue maps.
 
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The amount of man-power currently needed to review the maps is large, now if they began re-filtering every map that was approved they would have to double the current map resource mod force to continue at the pace they're going at now. If they didn't promote more mods and had the current mods re-filter each map would slow things further, meaning fewer maps will be approved.
I don't think that's a solution.

You can re-filter maps if they'll let you but you'll soon find yourself buried by a mound of them.
 
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Thanks for the update Wolverabid, but are you not going to release any information on how exactly the new section will work?

Here are the big things I would like to see.

1) A recommended section for Moderators to place good maps.

2) A Directors Choice section where the Moderators can send a map up to the Admins/other Moderators to vote on. If enough vote yes, it goes into an elite section where only the best of the best maps go.

3) A good approval system. Maybe have a little default approval message where the Moderators only have to fill in the blanks. I myself post in sentences like on a forum page, but I like your method (Wolverabid) of having them all look the same. The time, the rating, the checklist of No bugs, Does not crash, is playable. Then after the default approval message, the Moderator can add his own comments. This seems more professional and creates less confusion when a map is not approved.
 
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I could make a "grading" system, if anyone wants to. It has a general category, and then it breaks down according to genre. I've found in the past, though used only a little @ Gamerisle, this is very effective at ensuring that a map is well covered in its reviewal, and also helps to specify what a reviewer should look for in a type of map.

If anyone likes this idea, I might need some help writing up ones for genres I don't/rarely play.
 
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The problem with breaking the maps into sections is that most players will only look through the "Directors Choice" and "Recommended section. Thus leaving the "Mediocre" maps un-played, for the most part, I'm sure there will be someone who will look through the "Mediocre" maps. You shouldn't really group them like that, people took the time to create those maps and they shouldn't be left to gather dust.
 
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That's exactly what my point was:
HINDYhat said:
If we have a 'Recommended' section, and a 'Regular maps' section, I doubt anyone would browse through the 'Regular maps' section to find an interesting custom game. Most would just look through the Recommended or Director's Choice maps... so why keep all of the useless bad-quality maps? I honestly think that there should be a quality rule, both in presentation and gameplay.
 
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What? My views are becoming a festering spamhole? I don't know what you're trying to say, but I'm just saying that there should be a rule on presentation/quality. Let's say I submit some map:

Name : Footman Wars Ultimate Awesome
Description : rly kewl map made 100% wit GUI. just try it ull see.

Would that get approved? Let's say I made it by myself, it's unprotected, and basically follows all of the current map approval rules, yet the description and presentation suck, and the map is not original nor fun...
 
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What? My views are becoming a festering spamhole? I don't know what you're trying to say, but I'm just saying that there should be a rule on presentation/quality. Let's say I submit some map:

Name : Footman Wars Ultimate Awesome
Description : rly kewl map made 100% wit GUI. just try it ull see.

Would that get approved? Let's say I made it by myself, it's unprotected, and basically follows all of the current map approval rules, yet the description and presentation suck, and the map is not original nor fun...
The map moderator has some options:
  1. If the map is indeed otherwise acceptable, approve it (easy, sloppy solution).

  2. Ignore the submission due to a substandard author's description (kinda hasty and rather undesirable as the author has no chance to improve the quality of the borderline item).

  3. Work with the resource creator by instructing him or her to update the description to provide relevant details; leave the submission Non-Approved for a couple of weeks to allow the author time to update it, if never updated, THEN /ignore (most desirable solution).
 
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The problem with breaking the maps into sections is that most players will only look through the "Directors Choice" and "Recommended section. Thus leaving the "Mediocre" maps un-played, for the most part, I'm sure there will be someone who will look through the "Mediocre" maps. You shouldn't really group them like that, people took the time to create those maps and they shouldn't be left to gather dust.
So? I don't see how this is bad. If you make a poor map people shouldn't have to play it.

If someone makes an amazing map, they deserve more attention and playment (new word?). If someone makes a poor quality map, we will not reject them, but they will not receive the same attention. I don't see how this is unfair in any way. The way it is now is unfair to those who make quality maps.

This is like school now... oh he isn't good at PE, but he tries, give him an A. NO. If he can't play sports, run, and is weak, he deserves less than someone who is fast, skilled and strong. Same with Math. Someone who is gifted in math deserves more than someone who isn't. It's life pal.
 
This is like school now... oh he isn't good at PE, but he tries, give him an A. NO. If he can't play sports, run, and is weak, he deserves less than someone who is fast, skilled and strong. Same with Math. Someone who is gifted in math deserves more than someone who isn't. It's life pal.

Which is why our school has "effort" grades too. So if he really sucks at PE but dammit he tries his hardest, then he'll get an F1. (1 being the best for some reason, lowest is 5)
 
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Still I feel that all maps should be linked into a map develoment thred so i have more comments to go off as well as the abilty to get more direct imput from the creaters

Also tere are some people in this community that think that their map is soo "UBER UBER UBER UBER l33t" that if i ignore it for say being non english they get all "FU U SHOULD BE BANNSAD"

so i'm really feeling that the map mods should re-write the rules to make it eayser to modreate and to help keep our map standers up
 
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Guys, its not about a map being good or bad. How would you define a good map?

I've played a map, pissed peasants, i've seen it hosted. It is very simple, small map. You have a hero peasant which you use to kill the other team of peasants, and destroy their main building that revives you if you die, eliminating the peasant. But the abilities fit well (Even if they are not custom). The combination is right where you have to make each member of the team pick the right abilities, yata, team work = win.

This game, is not by any means good. Infact, its decent. But the thing about it is, the concept has never been made before, has never been made EXACTLY before anyway. These games, are my definition of a decent game (I dont mean that good). But, approvable quality.

What will be accepted:
Virtually any and all maps, regardless of talent. Every Warcraft modder must start somewhere. Low-quality maps therefore, will not be ignored providing that obvious effort was put into creating them.

See, here is the loop hole. People figure, hey, lets take a map everyone likes, that no one owns anymore, thats unprotected and edit it. Of course, the idiots who do this can at best change the terrain by writing their name in fire doodads, or adding custom models while not giving them credit. Where as other people are amazed by this supposedly extrodinary change.

Vampirisim, footman wars, DBZ tribute god knows what, Sheep tag god knows what, Village builder, Gods land, etc.


These are the abominable pieces of garbage that are plaguing our maps section. THESE are the maps i want to see ignored.
 
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The problem with ignoring those garbage clone maps is that it's hard to determine one that may be the source. And some people do good remakes of Footie maps... but only if they started from scratch...

I've done a bit of reviewing already. I'm being lenient, but I also give a thorough review first. It's kind of hard to not approve a map when the rules are so insanely lenient.
 
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