GUI or Jass???

[Eleandor]

Dude, stop blaming noobs and read the question better before commenting it.
The solution posted by others was that JNGP caused it. And the problems disappeared all of the sudden when it wasn't used anymore. Or is that marked as shear luck?

I've lost the count on how many times you've said that. I do, however, know how many times you actually showed a link, a picture or anything: 0.
Give some proof or it didn't happen.

I'd even go further by saying JNGP is more reliable than vanilla. How many times didn't WE crash already because you made a stupid syntax error? pjass ftw...

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

Beg the question ftw?

Like I said. Say what you want.. both methods are still useful.

 

[Viikuna]

Like I said. Say what you want.. both methods are still useful.

One can use the method he likes, but that doesnt change the fact that Jass is easier and better method.

I think the whole point of this thread was to prove that Jass is better than GUI. Discussion about why someone personaly prefers to use Jass/GUI is irrelevant.

 

[Avator]

You guys just don't want to admit anything, so why should I bother explaining? Trust me, I've got a comment on all the comments you just gave me, PurplePoot, but you're just too stubborn to admit it.

I've given my opinion and I'm not planning to make this thread any larger with more and more useless posts. I think the thread started can make up his mind now, so no point arguing more about it.

 

[Captain Griffen]

You can never code good GUI without knowing JASS, as you cannot understand your code. Hence...why use GUI?

 

[Avator]

That got to be on my list of weird quotes.
I know JASS exists, but that's all I need to know.

But thanks for the motivation. This is a good reason to work extra hard on my map ^^

 

[Eleandor]

The problem is that this is one of those subjects where opinion doesn't matter at all. It's simply a fact that jass is better than gui, and it's a fact because it's logically provable.

If you wouldn't be too lazy to actually learn jass, you might actually even change your opinion. But you're too lazy apparently. Without being arrogant I think I can say I'm a pro with gui, but I never touched it again except to help a few people once I've gotten my hands on jass. I, as well as other people in this thread, know both GUI and jass into the little details and we can actually compare both methods. You, apparently, can't. So tell me, why do we, who have extensive backgrounds on both methods, have to admit anything, when you only know gui and don't really know what you're talking about?

Conclusion: we're right and you're wrong. I usually use this ironically, but meh, apparently it's a good conclusion anyway.

 

[Avator]

1) JASS indeed gives you more possibilities. I never said it didn't
2) There's a difference between lazy and being able to spend your free time a lot better
3) I didn't bother to read the rest except the last part, because I can spend my free time a lot better
4) You conclusion still isn't based on anything...

 

[Eleandor]

1) JASS indeed gives you more possibilities. I never said it didn't

I wasn't even talking about the possibilities, I'm simply talking about jass in general.

2) There's a difference between lazy and being able to spend your free time a lot better
3) I didn't bother to read the rest except the last part, because I can spend my free time a lot better

You've been replying to almost every post extensively. You spend way too much time on this forum anyway. Perhaps use your time more productively by actually learning jass before you judge it.

4) You conclusion still isn't based on anything...

It's based on more than your jass bashing.

 

[Captain Griffen]

If you make more than a few complex spells in GUI, you're already likely behind time wise than someone learning Jass and then writing them.

And it simply is a fact that without understanding the code you're writing, you cannot write good code and debug it properly; you need to be a JASSer to be a good GUIer.

PLUS libraries and structs, etc. make vJassing massively, MASSIVELY faster to code than GUI can ever be.

And maths in GUI? HORRIFIC.

 

[Thunder_eye]

I can only agree with Griffen and Eleandor (as well as the others).

JASS, as a scripting language, has the most simple syntax I've tried. The only things you could get stuck at in the start (assuming you have no prior programming-knowledge) is the names of the functions as well as takes/returns, which is easily fixed by a function list and some "Convert to Custom Text". GUI doesn't make use of parameters anyway, so for starters you don't even have to learn and it wouldn't be much different to GUI.

Not sure how people can say that JASS is filled with unused functions (and GUI doesn't?).
When was the last time you used
"AI - Send Player 1 (Red) the AI Command (0, 0)" or
"Animation - Play the death animation for all doodads of type Shrub within (Playable map area)"?

Functions are only "useless" until they are vital.

Arithmetic is probably the biggest reason I get sick of GUI. Currently I only use GUI for the events, right before I convert it to JASS.

Lots of writing vs Lost of clicking?
Well with 10 fingers on my keyboard, only 1 on the left mouse key, I think I'd go for the previous.

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

One can use the method he likes, but that doesnt change the fact that Jass is easier and better method.

Your opinion. That's all

I think the whole point of this thread was to prove that Jass is better than GUI. Discussion about why someone personaly prefers to use Jass/GUI is irrelevant.

There's no proving anything. It's like arguing what the best make of a car is.
Everyone has their view, and no argument is going to change it. Obviously.

 

[Captain Griffen]

It's more like arguing whether a mercedes is better than a copped out old banger...only the mercedes is almost as cheap, and costs far less to run than the old banger.

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

It's more like arguing whether a mercedes is better than a copped out old banger...only the mercedes is almost as cheap, and costs far less to run than the old banger.

its just like rednecks arguing whether a ford is better than a chevy.
No resolve.

 

[Super-Sheep]

Well.. The JASS is better, but I've found it impossible to learn. D:

I've tried to learn it once or twice, but no..

 

[Captain Griffen]

JASS is indesputibly more efficient, cleaner, more versatile, more capable, and, particularly with vJass, has better support for implementing stuff like libraries (both functionally and organisationally).

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

JASS is indisputably more efficient, cleaner, more versatile, more capable, and, particularly with vJass, has better support for implementing stuff like libraries (both functionally and organisationally).

Jass:
More efficient - Agreed
Cleaner - Only when correctly used. Some cases it's messier.
More versatile - Agreed
More capable - Agreed
vJass - Good and more difficult

GUI:
Easier/Simpler
User friendly
Easily debugged
Virtually crash-free

 

[Captain Griffen]

Jass:
More efficient - Agreed
Cleaner - Only when correctly used. Some cases it's messier.
More versatile - Agreed
More capable - Agreed
vJass - Good and more difficult

Jass cannot be any less clean than GUI, unless you have an IQ of sub-50. GUI is horrific.

GUI:
Easier/Simpler
User friendly
Easily debugged
Virtually crash-free

User friendly depends on the user. GUI simply isn't user friendly for me. GUI is impossible to debug sometimes without Jass knowledge, and harder to read for me than Jass, particularly harder than vJass. And JNGP is crash free - no one sane and clever uses the normal WE anymore unless they cannot use anything else, and then they don't code in the WE.

 

[TriggerHappy]

Deleted message

f It was universal law that JASS is better, why would there be a thread about it. Im pretty tired of people just saying it's better and expecting the rest to go along with it. There's plenty that agree GUI is better. Maybe I should be like the rest of you..

GUI is the best because JASS is stupid. Anyone who uses JASS is a noob. I'm cooler anyways because my name has an underscore in it.

99% of GUIers don't know jass, how can they know which is better.

99% of JASSers know GUI, they know which is better.

 

[PurplePoot]

The reason that there are threads like this is because they are started by people who don't know the answer, Archangel. Just because gravity occurs doesn't mean someone who had never been around it (say, somehow raised in space) before would predict it.

 

[Akolyt0r]

Jass:
GUI:
Easier/Simpler
User friendly

Blah ...make some Text messages in GUI ...great ..you end up with 10000 windows ..and that is called user friendliness ? ...great.

 

[Mechanical Man]

I use GUI only because:
-I don't see why would be JASS better for cinematics
-I don't see why would be JASS better for triggering the victory condition and game events
-For one-liners (one event, one condition, one action) GUI looks good enough
-Occasionaly I make simple system for team mates, who don't know JASS, because they are talented in other fields instead, so they can implement it. If situation is dire, I hit a custom script or two.

And an user creating leaky triggers in GUI, thats not because the user doesn't know JASS, but is because the user doesn't know about leaks enough. In JASS there are even more leak traps.

Currently I only use GUI for the events, right before I convert it to JASS.

Thats is what I really hate, I find selecting one event in GUI much much faster than writing four lines of text. Even in extreme cases where I need to use custom script for all actions, I still keep the GUI form just because the events and also because is easier to move those blocks around than plain text and maybe adding new GUI actions. About arithmetics, I don't use them frequently and if they are too complex, I just use custom script for them.

Maybe JASS is better for maps with very complex gameplay. But I really dislike those for a simple reason: they don't have an AI. I tend to make more traditional maps. I'm more about that mapmaker who prefer better visuals (models, skins, interface, etc) than different gameplay (visuals don't screw the AI ). About the spells: not only that I hate JASS spells, I'm allergic also to trigger spells and I use them only if there is no other way. I don't know why. Ask Elenai, we have the same problem

 

[Viikuna]

Easier/Simpler
I have never made anything complex with GUI, since I moved quite straight to Jass, but I have seen some of complex GUI codes and they are impossible to read.

User friendly
The only downside of Jass is that you can make typing mistakes. I make them all the time.

Easily debugged
When using GUI you dont know what you are actually doing, unless you know Jass and check every single BJ from NewGens function list.

Virtually crash-free
NewGen prevents crashes, like Griffen pointed out.

Jass is harder to learn, especially if you dont have any other programming background. ( I havent, and Jass is still the only languege I have ever coded with )

I remember that I just couldnt understand how function can take some shit and return it. But I figgured that out eventually, and now I can say that Jass is really easy to use ( and vJass makes it even easier )

You just have to learn it. Or you can stick with GUI, which is not 'wrong' or anything.

Just dont come to tell people that GUI is better than Jass, because it is not.

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

Jass cannot be any less clean than GUI, unless you have an IQ of sub-50. GUI is horrific.

User friendly depends on the user. GUI simply isn't user friendly for me. GUI is impossible to debug sometimes without Jass knowledge, and harder to read for me than Jass, particularly harder than vJass. And JNGP is crash free - no one sane and clever uses the normal WE anymore unless they cannot use anything else, and then they don't code in the WE.

Goes both ways.

99% of GUIers don't know jass, how can they know which is better.

99% of JASSers know GUI, they know which is better.

Im pretty sure neither of those are the case. I'd say that the proportion is about the same.

Blah ...make some Text messages in GUI ...great ..you end up with 10000 windows ..and that is called user friendliness ? ...great.

You can put as much text as you want into one window. It's called concentrating strings. =/

Easier/Simpler
I have never made anything complex with GUI, since I moved quite straight to Jass, but I have seen some of complex GUI codes and they are impossible to read..

So you're saying you are not experienced with GUI. That holds a good argument. It's just as easy to read as jass is easy for you.

User friendly
The only downside of Jass is that you can make typing mistakes. I make them all the time.

So don't comment on it?

Easily debugged
When using GUI you dont know what you are actually doing, unless you know Jass and check every single BJ from NewGens function list.

GUI is easily debugged. Jass is not.

Virtually crash-free
NewGen prevents crashes, like Griffen pointed out.

Jass is harder to learn, especially if you dont have any other programming background. ( I havent, and Jass is still the only languege I have ever coded with )

I remember that I just couldnt understand how function can take some shit and return it. But I figgured that out eventually, and now I can say that Jass is really easy to use ( and vJass makes it even easier )

You just have to learn it. Or you can stick with GUI, which is not 'wrong' or anything.

Just dont come to tell people that GUI is better than Jass, because it is not.

Points:
-GUI doesn't need a crash-prevention.. it doesn't crash.
-GUI is easier to learn
-Jass is not better.
-GUI is not better.
-Im not even trying to prove which is better. Don't assume I am. I'm proving that each has their good points/uses.

Half of your post makes no sense. If you are trying to prove that the claims I made aboug GUI are false; the best start would be to say they are wrong.
I'm pretty sure the only thing you tried to say was incorrect was that GUI was easier to read. You said yourself you haven't done anything complex with GUI so how can you say which is easier to read?

That's right.. you can't?

 

[Super-Sheep]

Get over it.

JASS is better, but harder. Of course some "smart" people say, that its OMGEASY, but some ppl are just idiots (like me) and cant understand JASS.

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

Get over it.

JASS is better, but harder. Of course some "smart" people say, that its OMGEASY, but some ppl are just idiots (like me) and cant understand JASS.

So you are saying it's better, yet you don't even understand how to use it?
cool.
Ok, yeah. You're right. I agree.

 

[Eleandor]

Half of your post makes no sense.

Maybe because you didn't read the other half. Don't answer to half his post and flagrantly ignore the other half.

You said yourself you haven't done anything complex with GUI so how can you say which is easier to read?[:QUOTE]
See what I mean? You read half a sentence, jump on your conclusions and ignore the other half, and then you even have the guts to call it a proof.

You can put as much text as you want into one window. It's called concentrating strings. =/

He's talking about concatenations and arithmetics. In jass, you write "a = Cos((b + c) * d)
In GUI you have to press "OK" 50 times and you still don't have what you want. Making modifications is even worse. Try changing
a = (b+c) * d
into
a = (b + c / e) * d

It's horrible.
The same goes for strings, when you need to display e.g. player name of a player + a message. In jass you simply concatenate strings by writing "string 1 + string 2", in gui you need to click 10 different windows and again, making changes is a pain in the ass.

Jass is easily debugged. GUI is not.

Totally agree.

Im pretty sure neither of those are the case. I'd say that the proportion is about the same.

No way. Easily 90% of the jassers moved from gui to jass.

 

[TriggerHappy]

Im pretty sure neither of those are the case. I'd say that the proportion is about the same.

So your saying that this statement is wrong?

99% of GUIers don't know jass, how can they know which is better.

99% of JASSers know GUI, they know which is better.

How many GUI users do you know that know jass efficiently, and still use GUI and think its better.

 

[Avator]

Ok this is now the 7th page that's about to be filled with more crap of GUI-mappers vs JASS-mappers and (I hope) everybody here knows that there's not going to be an end to this ridiculous discussion because half of the people are too stubborn to admit anything that makes their 'side' look worse and the other half is just keeping spamming this thread with stuff that's been said a dozen times, but weren't accepted by the stubborn half.

I suggest you close this thread, since it'll get nobody any further and will only result in flaming and spamming...

 

[Squiggy]

Tried vJass - I stay with gui

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

lol eleandor, look what you are doing. I read the entire post. He tries to counter my points but basically just agreed with them. If you read my entire post, you'd know that.

He's talking about concatenations and arithmetics. In jass, you write "a = Cos((b + c) * d)
In GUI you have to press "OK" 50 times and you still don't have what you want. Making modifications is even worse. Try changing
a = (b+c) * d
into
a = (b + c / e) * d

I was proving GUI could do it. Not that GUI did it better.
Try gathering the point of the post too. Not what you want to hear.

 

[HINDYhat]

wtf iz gui and jazz. i uz trigers

It seems that GUIers will never understand because they just don't know what they're talking about. gg

 

[PurplePoot]

I was proving GUI could do it. Not that GUI did it better.

If I entered a snail into a race, it'd still eventually make it to the finish line.

--

All the pretty pictures, excessive wordiness, and bad layout of GUI make it impossible to read and thus debug.

 

[Need_O2]

This is like a diplomatic battle where your enemy doesnt even know what you are talking about
and its funny

 

[jadegolem]

GUI is eye candy while jass is typing. eye candy is easier to read but has limits while jass is your mean old texan daddy with a wip every mornin to get yah up but learning from him has given yah tha brains and letsa do things lek fly and move without limits.

Translation: GUI is people who are beginners at triggering, as it lets you see the triggers(Excluding pro scripters as they will probably use jass)
Jass is more advanced, but you gotta type it all, but it doesn't hurt anyone

 

[Bobo_The_Kodo]

GUI is eye candy while jass is typing. eye candy is easier to read but has limits while jass is your mean old texan daddy with a wip every mornin to get yah up but learning from him has given yah tha brains and letsa do things lek fly and move without limits.

Eye candy is hardly easier to read than text, or everyone would communicate written-ly with pictures, not text.

Also, JASS has limits just as GUI has limits. Only people who want to sound like they know something about it when they really don't would say that.

Translation: GUI is people who are beginners at triggering, as it lets you see the triggers(Excluding pro scripters as they will probably use jass)
Jass is more advanced, but you gotta type it all, but it doesn't hurt anyone

Unless you have a font problem you can see JASS pretty easily ><

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

lol I'm pretty sure this is going nowhere. Like I said earlier, the people who use GUI will support GUI. The people who use Jass will prefer Jass.

It seems the heads of everyone are too big to accept the thougts of anyone else

 

[HINDYhat]

Because you're wrong.

 

[Archangel_Tidusx]

You got me. Dang.
Prove it.
No one has.

 

[TriggerHappy]

It seems the heads of everyone are too big to accept the thougts of anyone else

Look who was the one making the most arguments.

You got me. Dang.
Prove it.
No one has.

It has been, ask any "good" jasser. (that includes HINDYhat)

 

[PurplePoot]

You are welcome to your own opinion, but that doesn't change reality - reality is based on facts, and facts are that Jass is superior to GUI.

As for your comment that GUIers will stick with GUI, and Jassers will stick with Jass:

GUIers are those who don't know both. Jassers almost always do. It is almost unheard of for someone who knows both to use GUI frequently (redscores is the only person I can think of, out of hundreds and hundreds). Therefore, the views of the Jassers are naturally more relevant to a comparative study, as they are the ones who actually have the resources available to compare the two.

 

[Viikuna]

They are both meant to be used to modify wc3 and make cool custom stuff.

The better one is of course the one which does this better.

Jass gives more freedom & possibilities, so Jass does it better.

Jass is better than GUI.

Discussion about why someone personaly prefers to use Jass/GUI is irrelevant.

 

[Dougletron]

Guys just cut it, don't start up a civil war between mappers over Gui and Jass usage.

Whether you're making maps with GUI or Jass, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You're all having fun being creative and trying to provide the wc3 community with new content.

Coding languages aren't easy for everyone to learn. Sure it's easy as hell for us Jassers because we got that way of thinking. It can be hard to get that kind of thinking pattern going however. GUI is kind of a very 'broken' down jass that doesn't take as much thought process training as a coding language. Sure, it's less efficient when you get very technical, but its capable of accomplishing the goal we're here for, to make maps.

The question shouldn't be which one is better, but which one is better for you.

 

[PurplePoot]

I don't care what people use as long as they don't bullshit others about the reality of the situation - that's just harmful.

 

[Rui]

GUI might do a better job introducing you to variables and stuff if you have absolutely NO programming knowledge. Back in the days we had people asking what variables and arrays were, if you recall.

I have tried both and my opinion is that JASS is better. It takes some time to understand if, again, you have no knowledge on programming, but in the end, it is rewarding. Besides, ever since JASSNewGenPatch, scripting is much much easier.

Unless Starcraft II uses JASS, it is pretty useless to try to learn it now, since the game is being released next summer, I heard ^{edit}(this, of course, supposing you are a student and you are smart enough to not put a game in priority).


I recommend a few people around here to stop spamming, and not to resort to insults.
~Thread Cleaned (20 posts deleted)

 

[Dr Super Good]

Jass takes a mater of hours to get used to if you already know 1 or more programming languages like some people do. Thus in my opinion it is best to try and avoid GUI altogether if you are capable of doing so.

GUI idea was quite good, but blizzard badly implimented it. They took coding shortcuts which reduce trigger efficiency massivly and also made GUI too limated in usage. I sometimes wonder if the people (one person I think) who designed GUI had that good of an idea about JASS themselves.

 

[Eleandor]

lol eleandor, look what you are doing. I read the entire post. He tries to counter my points but basically just agreed with them. If you read my entire post, you'd know that.

I actually knew it already as I did read your post, and expected a reply like this. But I replied anyway, meh.

Ok this is now the 7th page that's about to be filled with more crap of GUI-mappers vs JASS-mappers and (I hope) everybody here knows that there's not going to be an end to this ridiculous discussion because half of the people are too stubborn to admit anything that makes their 'side' look worse and the other half is just keeping spamming this thread with stuff that's been said a dozen times, but weren't accepted by the stubborn half.

I suggest you close this thread, since it'll get nobody any further and will only result in flaming and spamming...

I honestly hope you're not saying you're part of the other half that isn't stubborn? The problem is that you base yourself on absolute false information while we jassers who have possibly been deeper in gui than you know what we're talking about. You can't call us stubborn when we're absolutely right, can you?

Stop discussing what doesn't need to be discussed. It's like we're discussing whether gravity exists and some people being too stubborn to admit it does exist. Whatever your personal preference is, gui or jass, I honestly couldn't care any less. Use gui if you like, but in any way don't lie about hard facts that prove jass is better than gui.

Unless Starcraft II uses JASS, it is pretty useless to try to learn it now, since the game is being released next summer

If you don't know any programming language yet, and I'm assuming you don't - rui, then I suggest you look into jass anyway. Familiarizing yourself with the concepts of functions, variables, structs and other features are always good baggage. Whatever SC2 uses, those concepts will be used anyway. The only difference will be syntactically, and syntax can be picked up with relative ease.

 

[Dougletron]

Unless Starcraft II uses JASS, it is pretty useless to try to learn it now, since the game is being released next summer, I heard ^{edit}(this, of course, supposing you are a student and you are smart enough to not put a game in priority).

SC2 may not use JASS exactly, but the language will be pretty similar i assume with additional functions to manipulate things that go on with SC2's mini physics system. It will probably be even better than JASS since Blizzard acknowledges it has such a dedicated modding community now.

 

[PurplePoot]

It's based on C and as such I assume the syntax will not be similar to Jass.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Jass is C based.