GUI vs JASS/vJASS!!! Is Jass better?

[Palaslayer]

Who doesn't know the neverending discussion about GUI and JASS. Jassers simply say that GUI is crippled JASS and GUIers say that it makes no difference and that it is obviously better for new modders and people without time to learn JASS to use GUI.

Recently I've seen many of those kind and similar arguments leading to spammed threads and posts about 'elitists' and 'newbs'. While it is an obviously dumb idea to open a thread for it, people might notice how dumb their discussion is.

So I wanted to gather all the opinions, list pros and cons and give people room to flame the hell out of 'elitists' or whatever hoping that it might keep those posts away from serious threads which were supposed to serve a serious reason.

To give you a little starting help:

"In my opinion it is completely unfair that GUI gets less points at Coding in Triggers and Scripts Contests."

 

[raid1000]

doesn't matter if you use gui or jass
the idea is to get the job done (as cleanly and eficiently as possible)
even if you code a spell or a map, people that play the map or use the spell don't care if its coded in gui or jass

yes i must agree with you on the last part even though the funny thing is that gui is actually jass in its own right xD

 

[Deaod]

This is gonna get locked in no time. I give it two days.

A quick C'n'P from one of those serious threads (for now):

People who use GUI usually dont know JASS/vJass. They cant grasp the limitations they impose on themselves. And they have no fucking clue what programming really means (its not just writing syntactically and semantically correct code).
They might have great ideas. Theres nothing to prevent that. But JASSers/vJassers can have equally good ideas (and i bet that statistically speaking theres no difference in the ration of ideas/user for any of those languages).
(v)JASSers can implement their idea. GUIers will have problems with certain constructs and efficiency (Not to mention that the resulting code of a vJass master will be a few thousand times better than anything the GUIer could EVER create).

Im sick and tired of those people who hold GUI up high. GUI is crap. Face it.
Im not preventing you from using it. You only have to accept that you willingly choose the inferior of two (three) possibilities.
People who hold GUI up high can burn in the deepest depths of hell, if you ask me. Ignorance should be punished.

I know this will not get through to you dickheads. Youre a lost cause. I only hope that others who are not that stubborn will one day wake up and acutally use their head for something other than denial.


DISCLAIMER: This is my own opinion. I am in no way affiliated with anyone else.

 

[Duragon]

"In my opinion it is completely unfair that GUI gets less points at Coding in Triggers and Scripts Contests."

If you check the compiled GUI code versus equivalent (but properly coded) JASS code and then run benchmarks on the two, you will find the JASS runs significantly faster on all counts. Now extend this to complicated systems and spells and your map runs substantially slower because of using GUI.

I think the real killer why JASS is so great is because of the vJASS extension. It allows scoping and encapsulation, which in turn lets you spend 50% (easily) less time making your map than were you to attempt the exact same stuff in GUI. I don't know about you, but I don't have the time to do stuff in GUI when vJASS speeds the development time up that much.

 

[Paladon]

I think it's quite overweening from all the "jass only" part of this site to judge extremely harsh over everyone using the possibility of GUI.
I'm myself a Jass user nowadays but do definitely not support the Anti-GUI stream which is taking place every now and then.

Yes, Jass is better. The advantage is provided by efficiency and leak cleaning, nothing more, nothing less. Other parts are reproduceable in GUI.
People should not limit users, especially the newer ones, to Jass.
Everyone can advise them to learn it, to improve their product by the mentioned facts, but constraining them to Jass/vJass in map making aspects is almost malicious.
You can't expect unexperienced users to have or acquire a general understanding of the kind and conversion of such a scripting language like Jass.

I personally learned GUI, practiced it a lot and learned Jass and vJass in one afternoon afterwards. And i got a better practice in general triggering as well.
If you just start of with pure Jass without further knowledge of triggering, scripting languages, etc., you are practically doomed for days, weeks, months.

Oh, yeah, i guess this will be locked again.
If it's kept clean, it may stay.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Just shooting in my view, as neither of the two (basically, I do not make triggers), but as a programmer. It's plausible to compare GUI with a tool that makes something more advanced easy to do - just like a Website Builder, if you catch my drift. Then it would be natural to compare JASS with the advanced part that is made easier - in this case that'd be XHTML itself.

People might say that a website made with a Website Builder, rather than written in XHTML manually, is good enough or even great. Also, a website made manually by writing XHTML could end up bad or even horrible. What I am trying to say, is that making something with a tool, rather than making it yourself, is easier and can provide good results. On the other hand, if you make it all by yourself, it enables a lot of features that you could not have done with the tool, simply because it was not implemented that way. However, the fall is so much deeper if you do not know what you are doing.

Therefore, I agree completely that triggers made in GUI should get less points, just because it is easier.

 

[HappyTauren]

Not this again............. and Deaod is right.

 

[Palaslayer]

Not this again............. and Deaod is right.

It is not 'this' again. It is supposed to clarify this and to make people focus their damn posts on this thread instead of flaming other threads which have a different proposal.

 

[Deaod]

The advantage is provided by efficiency and leak cleaning, nothing more, nothing less.

You see, this is where i disagree. There are reasons why i say that good vJass code is a few thousand times better than anything you could ever do with GUI.
Let me mention maintainability. GUI is messy. You cant even comment code in a good way.
Let me also mention portability. Remember that youll have to set up globals through a menu (or through some incoherent snippet of JASS thatll only work with JNGP).

 

[HINDYhat]

You know, you could just search for "GUI vs Jass" and read through those threads, because they tried to do exactly what you're trying to do here.

[...] give people room to flame the hell out of 'elitists'

Fucking ridiculous.

even though the funny thing is that gui is actually jass in its own right xD

GUI, when converted to Jass, is TERRIBLE Jass i.e. terrible coding. Why would GUI and Jass be rated equally in a contest? The GUIer obviously put less effort into writing his code, not to mention he hasn't learned Jass in the first place. The most efficient/organized/etc. GUI will never come close to the most efficient/organized/etc. Jass or vJass. So now, why rate equally, when they aren't equal at all?

Really, just read the other threads.

 

[En_Fuego]

JASS is better than GUI...it's hard to debate it otherwise...

But in reality, using GUI isn't a sin. It's not like your map will be rejected if it's in GUI, in fact, I'm sure people would like more GUI resources. Just, uhm, don't think that GUI is super-efficient.

I think GUI is more of a learning tool (like an intro. to programming).

 

[HINDYhat]

There's a difference between equally judging GUI and Jass in a coding competition, and equally rating GUI and Jass maps submitted to the database.

 

[Deleted member 157129]

JASS is better than GUI...it's hard to debate it otherwise...

But in reality, using GUI isn't a sin. It's not like your map will be rejected if it's in GUI, in fact, I'm sure people would like more GUI resources. Just, uhm, don't think that GUI is super-efficient.

I think GUI is more of a learning tool (like an intro. to programming).

It might be a learning tool, but I disagree that it is an introduction to programming, simply because you do not learn to program, you learn to use a tool to do the programming for you.

 

[Reaper2008]

Plus, we have more requirements for JASS spells... We want merged triggers, X&Y instead of location, and no BJ's. I'm not saying it's hard, but the more requirements mean that a JASS spell with 2 BJ's and locations might get less score than a GUI spell coded best, which will be laggier for sure.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

Well in some cases you have to use locations, BUT WE WON'T GO THERE!

The only way you can support GUI is to say, it's easier for lazy people to learn. THAT'S IT! That's its only pro. After that it has a list of 500,000 cons.

List of pros for JASS:
None

It doesn't have pros, but it has almost no cons. If that makes no sense then let me rephrase.

Jass is alright.
GUI is pure suckfest.
So it's like 0 > -500,000

then I suppose vJASS can be considered +5

 

[Deleted member 157129]

Well in some cases you have to use locations, BUT WE WON'T GO THERE!

The only way you can support jass is to say, it's easier for lazy people to learn. THAT'S IT! That's its only pro. After that it has a list of 500,000 cons.

List of pros for JASS:
None

It doesn't have pros, but it has almost no cons. If that makes no sense then let me rephrase.

Jass is alright.
GUI is pure suckfest.
So it's like 0 > -500,000

then I suppose vJASS can be considered +5

Your post makes no sense.. JASS has one pro, then it has none .. and it has 500.000 cons, then almost none.

 

[Diehard@Azeroth]

sure GUI is pretty bad compared to JASS, but give me a break, let them do resources in GUI; as long as its playable and of decent quality, why not? stop flaming the newbs and shit, using GUI isnt a sin, ofc JASS is better though. Any elitist may be flaming the newbs because they feel they have unfullfilled potential or w/e but that does not give you the right to flame others at all. The main purpose of this community is entertainment, and there is also producing maps of decent quality, and MOST IF NOT ALL GUI maps here are playable; and yes using GUI can restrict you from making maps due to the lag it may produce or for whatever other reasons, but it can still make playable maps... stop this sillyness for God's sake.

 

[HINDYhat]

Please read the initial post.

"In my opinion it is completely unfair that GUI gets less points at Coding in Triggers and Scripts Contests."

 

[Diehard@Azeroth]

was a respond to the original topic, not to palaslayer mate, tho i do think its fair cus coding is more efficient in JASS; how life goes lmao

 

[PurplePoot]

Yes, Jass is better. The advantage is provided by efficiency and leak cleaning, nothing more, nothing less. Other parts are reproduceable in GUI.

Not only is this statement wrong, but being reproduceable in GUI does not make it equivalent in GUI. It takes longer, is harder to do, takes longer to debug, is harder to modify, is harder to read, etc.

I personally learned GUI, practiced it a lot and learned Jass and vJass in one afternoon afterwards. And i got a better practice in general triggering as well.
If you just start of with pure Jass without further knowledge of triggering, scripting languages, etc., you are practically doomed for days, weeks, months.

You cannot learn JASS well in one afternoon. I've been JASSing for well over four years now and I still haven't learned all there is to know about the language.

GUI, when converted to Jass, is TERRIBLE Jass i.e. terrible coding. Why would GUI and Jass be rated equally in a contest? The GUIer obviously put less effort into writing his code, not to mention he hasn't learned Jass in the first place. The most efficient/organized/etc. GUI will never come close to the most efficient/organized/etc. Jass or vJass. So now, why rate equally, when they aren't equal at all?

I can't agree with the effort argument for the same reason that I can't agree with the "a terrain that you spent more time on is inherently better" argument that raid1000 propagates from time to time.

----------------------

What I see time and time again when developing a map and helping others (advising, giving code snippets, etc) or simply watching them develop theirs is that as GUIers, they say "This is the theme of my map. What can I implement?" whereas I as a JASSer say "This is where I want my map to be. How can I manipulate Warcraft to achieve it?". The lack of power which GUI provides is not only a detriment which you would be without in JASS; it is a way of thought which restricts your creativity in the face of what you, from your experience, believe is possible. From time and time again I see an interesting feature in an obviously GUIed map, and think one of two things; either "good for them! That's a really creative idea and I would never have thought of it." or, in larger maps, "What is that doing in this map? If it stands out so well, then it must not integrate with the rest of the game well."

I repeat, the problem with GUI is that it is not only a means of coding; it is a suffocating way of thought about how to develop a game.

 

[Vosty]

GUI is slower, dumber, longer, less clean, and leaky.
But sure, you can still go ahead and suck at life if you want to, but I'll stay on the JASS side.
The thing is that certain people are just too lazy to learn the syntax. I was at first, until I reaped all the benefits.

 

[Craka_J]

Hopefully GUI isn't so terrible in StarCraft 2.

So... I'm just curious, is it better to use JASS or vJASS? I know vJASS is easier for the coder, but does JASS run better?

 

[Reaper2008]

They run the same, as vJASS is a preprocessor, but it's well coded. Generally, a vJASS spell will be exactly as good as an equivalent vanilla JASS made. You just gotta live without th OOP benefits.

 

[Palaslayer]

To clarify that again (for people like hindy who obviously didn't get the purpose i made this thread for):

This threads is for people who strongly support one side of the discussion and keep on flaming in other threads which end terribly filled up with rubbish-posts. I made it so that people like Hindy focus their provocations and offends on this thread to keep others clean.
Means: If there is a place needed to discuss the topic, use this thread instead of others.

 

[Vosty]

Of course, it would be much better to shove a link to this thread, and "settle it out" instead of flaming the every last thread.
At least we can stilll flame here, to some degree, before it gets just insulting certain people, instead of the languages itself. =D
I could think of a hundred different ways to make GUI better, like for instance making it use natives, but I'm too lazy, and don't need a new UI (Since I already use Jass instead.)
Did anyone know that wikapedia has a pretty detailed page on Jass and vJass?

 

[Palaslayer]

Does everyone admit that blizzard failed hard when creating the GUI???

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

Your post makes no sense.. JASS has one pro, then it has none .. and it has 500.000 cons, then almost none.

Re-read it (after I edited it XD)

 

[Craka_J]

I agree that WarCraft III GUI is terrible in nearly all aspects. If you're new to modding WarCraft III, GUI is acceptable since it gets the job done well-enough to play your map.

JASS on the other hand is easier to avoid leaks and has a vast amount of potentially complex systems that GUI could simply never accomplish, such as fullscreen inventory systems.

With that said, GUI is fine for smaller maps with few complexities to them, while JASS is best... well... JASS is better period, but it's preferably best for larger projects or maps with complex concepts.

 

[En_Fuego]

GUI is slower, dumber, longer, less clean, and leaky.
But sure, you can still go ahead and suck at life if you want to, but I'll stay on the JASS side.
The thing is that certain people are just too lazy to learn the syntax. I was at first, until I reaped all the benefits.

Using JASS over GUI doesn't make someone better than someone else at life...

I myself hate the syntax for JASS. It's not awfully hard to understand and use, I just don't like it. At. All.

 

[Dr Super Good]

JASS is obviously better... GUI is nothing more than a restricted and poorly made interface with JASS.

It is like driving a car using a pully system from lying facedown in the boot while you could sit in the front and drive the wheel directly.

GUI fails due to its flawed design, which is blizzards fault. JASS however fails less so because it allows lower level interaction. Locals are but 1 advantage of JASS to mention it.

 

[PurplePoot]

To clarify that again (for people like hindy who obviously didn't get the purpose i made this thread for):

This threads is for people who strongly support one side of the discussion and keep on flaming in other threads which end terribly filled up with rubbish-posts. I made it so that people like Hindy focus their provocations and offends on this thread to keep others clean.
Means: If there is a place needed to discuss the topic, use this thread instead of others.

Hate to break it to you, but that isn't how people think or act.

I myself hate the syntax for JASS. It's not awfully hard to understand and use, I just don't like it. At. All.

What is with all these "programmers" who can hardly understand one syntax and no more?

 

[Vosty]

Using JASS over GUI doesn't make someone better than someone else at life...

I myself hate the syntax for JASS. It's not awfully hard to understand and use, I just don't like it. At. All.

One I was joking. Please don't hate me for trying to have some fun here.

Two, why do you hate it? It does a lot of things for how primative its current syntax is. We have learned to dodge alot of obstacles too, like making spells with timers MUI by using hash/handle vars/indexing systems (with or without structs) (Handle vars is outdated.)

Maybe I'll buy SC2 if it really a lot better in coding. Else we'll have to make it OOP again.

And once I heard someone compare learning Jass like learning Spanish.
Totally untrue, because JASS IS WRITTEN IN ENGLISH! THE NAMES OF THINGS BLATANTLY EXPLAIN WHAT THEY DO!

@Purplepoot: Then they aren't programmers.

 

[PurplePoot]

@Purplepoot: Then they aren't programmers.

Hence the quotation marks.

 

[Insincerity]

GUI may be easier to use for some people, but it is a fact that vJASS is more efficient. You cannot interpret it in any other way.

 

[En_Fuego]

I'm not a programmer. If anything, I'm a "beginning programmer" and I wouldn't even consider myself that.

That's the thing. I'm used to Pascal, and when I sit and mindlessly type into a compiler I confuse both of them. I don't think of them as separate, I think of them just as programming in general.

Call me retarded? That's why I don't like JASS. Plus, it's not really a big deal if I use JASS or not.

 

[HINDYhat]

I made it so that people like Hindy focus their provocations and offends on this thread to keep others clean.

Right. Great to know there's a place I can go to flame GUIers.

Seriously, what the fuck? I don't even know what to say.

 

[Reaper2008]

I'm not a programmer. If anything, I'm a "beginning programmer" and I wouldn't even consider myself that.

That's the thing. I'm used to Pascal, and when I sit and mindlessly type into a compiler I confuse both of them. I don't think of them as separate, I think of them just as programming in general.

Call me retarded? That's why I don't like JASS. Plus, it's not really a big deal if I use JASS or not.

Yeah, but saying it sucks because you're used to Pascal is unfair, as it's really nice to code in. C syntax is still the best for me, and Java is better than JASS too, but it's nicely coded.

 

[En_Fuego]

When did I say JASS sucked? I said JASS was un-deniably better than GUI, just GUI is easier to pick up if you're a newb.

 

[syltman]

GUI is easier to learn and I guess it gets the job done sorta.

However jass is better if you want a better performence

 

[PurplePoot]

There's a lot more than performance in using JASS over GUI.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

organizing code, modularity, and standards. None of those exist in GUI (I guess standards could be made for GUI, but wth is the point?)

 

[HyperActive]

I'm not even sure the two can compare.
After all, GUI is just a part of JASS, made for newer users to get familiar with the work flow in wc3. Once you pick a GUI command from the list in the trigger editor, it is converted to JASS (badly).
Everything you can do in GUI you can do better in JASS, while most of the things you do in JASS you can't do in GUI.

 

[M_Vegeta]

I think it's quite overweening from all the "jass only" part of this site to judge extremely harsh over everyone using the possibility of GUI.
I'm myself a Jass user nowadays but do definitely not support the Anti-GUI stream which is taking place every now and then.

Yes, Jass is better. The advantage is provided by efficiency and leak cleaning, nothing more, nothing less. Other parts are reproduceable in GUI.
People should not limit users, especially the newer ones, to Jass.
Everyone can advise them to learn it, to improve their product by the mentioned facts, but constraining them to Jass/vJass in map making aspects is almost malicious.
You can't expect unexperienced users to have or acquire a general understanding of the kind and conversion of such a scripting language like Jass.

I personally learned GUI, practiced it a lot and learned Jass and vJass in one afternoon afterwards. And i got a better practice in general triggering as well.
If you just start of with pure Jass without further knowledge of triggering, scripting languages, etc., you are practically doomed for days, weeks, months.

Oh, yeah, i guess this will be locked again.
If it's kept clean, it may stay.

Like paladon said INDEED jass is and will alway b better than GUI !!

I think jass and GUI doesnt have the same logic, jass is more a type of code like Vbs, since i learn vbs its was e-zier for me to learn jass since its nearly same
tobe able to understand jass knowledge you need to know the basic & i think GUI is the basic!!!

evryone should evolve from GUI to jass!! But code or jass wont make the game any good if the main idea and game play suck!!

basicly vjass and jass are very usefull to make spells and certain type of system but i wont do a cinematic in jass >.> exemple!!

jass and GUI are 2 type of code, you cant obligate some1 to use 1 type of code but they need to know their limits and there cons!!!

i began to learn jass after learned MUI & hashtable ; its made me a better knowledge!! i think most poeple probly did learn GUI before jass!!

-my opinion

 

[Dr Super Good]

Everyone should start with JASS and stay with it.
For people knowing 2-3 other programming languages, there is no reason to even bother learning GUI as it teaches you nothing about JASS next to basic programming opperations which you should know already.

 

[thelifelessone]

Some people think JASS is extremely complex, and because of this, don't use it.
This is out fault (the JASSers). We talk about all these complex JASS things that should be kept away from new members, but they see it, read it, and it confuses them.

I've met many people who say JASS is crap. That it isn't worth learning, because you can do everything it can in GUI. I used to think the very same thing, but I learnt it so I could understand the spells in a friends map.
Learning JASS was honestly one of the best things I've ever done. It helped me understand programming concepts, so I could later go on to learn C#.

So if you want my opinion on which is better, I say JASS. GUI cannot compare to it.

 

[CHA_Owner]

I just had to put a word in this ridiculous discussion.

First I personally use GUI in every map i make and maybe a custom script or 2 for leaks so i think GUI is fine to use BUT it has its flaws.

Second JASS is much harder to learn, takes more time, and can do more functions than GUI itself.

Finally i think that JASS should get WAY more points than GUI since it is much more complicated and harder to learn.

Theres not much more than you can say about it other than give the JASSers there credit its a lot of hard work.

 

[M_Vegeta]

Everyone should start with JASS and stay with it.
For people knowing 2-3 other programming languages, there is no reason to even bother learning GUI as it teaches you nothing about JASS next to basic programming opperations which you should know already.

im agree with you but, some jass tutorial are mess and i never seen a jass dictionnary( as far i seen) but a function list; how some1 will learn GetFilterUnit is if he doesnt even know what it is or what it do !!

dont forgot also some tutorial use gui to explain jass! if the guy dont know gui he will work 2 time harder to understand it !!

evry poeple got different way to learns things!!You cant avoid that & evry code developer got a different manner to think and do his own code!!

like i said earlier i think most poeple start from learned gui than jass than vjass!!

but i agree poeple should only learn jass ,but its e-zier to tell it than do it :/
the reason i learn jass that fast without looking so much tutorial was by converting gui to jass and removed bj function >.>

 

[Thanathos]

Well lets see what we found out in this threat...
The most of the users who posted in this thread agreed that GUI is inferior to JASS, because of the limitations, less efficiency and etc. JASS is (often) used to achieve more complex manipulations in warcraft3. New users who have nearly no knowledge about warcraft3 coding, may try to understand the complex JASS-scripts but cannot, because of the simple fact that they are new to it. Therefore those new users start to use and learn GUI, which is actually easier to learn as JASS.

Now where i tried to summarize the results of this threat as good as possible i may utter my personal opinion.
If we want ever put an end to this (nearly eternal) conflict i´d suggest that the so called noob-users should accept that GUI is inferior to JASS and that this is a fact which was proven by some very expierienced users.
On the other hand the so called eletists should accept that JASS is confusing and harder to learn for new users. And i want to remember those who persist that GUI is just crippled code and may try to force other users to assimilate their opinion, that their opinion is not the absolut and ultimate fact.
If you notice that someone whom you are trying to help with some JASS-GUI related coding issue is simply refusing you help, then just leave alone with his refuse. Ignoring those people could actually prevent such awkward discussions.

If you still seek someone you can blame for this than choose blizzard. They failed by making GUI a good interface and even JASS is not perfect !

 

[Deuterium]

Good thing I passed by to find this discussion... and its extremely ridiculous that people are still arguing about this:

First of all, when it comes to just normal spells which go to the spells section, no one has the right to argue whether it should be GUI or Jass as long as it works fine and doesn't leak (well there are always leaks whether in Jass or GUI)...

Now for competitions, well... ok I must agree that GUI shouldn't be given a rating related to coding as high as that of Jass, but in my opinion coding shouldn't be a major rating criterium in the first place since those little BJ's don't really affect today's powerful computers. I think leaks should be the major things looked into when discussing efficiency. And even then GUI would be slightly downgraded... but not necessarily like 5/10 for a leakless GUI, be fair and give it an 8/10.

That however doesn't mean I prefer having MAXIUM EFFICIENCY, but not everyone is an efficiency freak.

I think that makes my point clear for now.
Enjoy this endless discussion guys!

 

[Vosty]

^^
Your computer may be efficent, but my 256MB of ram gets a kick in the nuts when any map instalation trigger gets fired.