Dungeon Raider (Needs better name)

[terradont]

What's this about?

Okay, this project is kinda an ORPG, but slightly different. The biggest difference is that thiss ORPG should only consist of heavily scripted dungeons. You move your character between the dungeons with save/load codes. Of coarse different dungeons have different difficulties and should only be run on the right level.


What makes this project special?

First of all, it's an ORPG consisting only of heavily scripted dungeons, which increases gameplay.

Talent System
This ORPG is going to have a talent system. All classes will have 3 different talent-trees. Example: a mage might have : Arcane, Fire and Frost.
Every level the player will get a talent point which he can spend to enchance his abilities or get new ones.
As the player spends points in a tree, he will be able to learn more complex talents not avaible to those who spend their points in another tree.
Say we have a talent tree with water. Then you can go three major parts, which is pure water, ice, and mist, where water is mana based buffs, ice is damage and slow and mist is disruption. When you've achieved special levels, around each tenth level, you will get a special ability based on how many points you have in each type.

So just because you would choose water over fire doesn't mean that you're simply a water magician, but maybe a frost/mist macigian.

Heroic
In the beginning of each map you will be able to choose between two options: Normal and Heroic.
Normal is for levling purposes.
Heroic is for max level players that wish to gear up and lengthen the play. Now the dungeons are significantly harder, and some units and most bosses act differently. They also drop better equipment.
In heroic the dungeons are lined up in difficulty as the levling ones.
This being said, you will need gear from the earlier Heroic dungeons to take on the later ones.

Story
This ORPG will have a story that is being told throughout the dungeons, and unlike many orpg stories it will have a big twist. This story is up to me and the story writers to come up with.

Threat system.
Yes, since this ORPG swirls around dungeons, it will need a threat system.
Threat is a way for computer-controlled enemies to know which one is the largest threat, and will therefore attack that target.
Mostly threat is controlled by damage and healing, but there are skills like taunt that generate threat without damage. This is to keep classes such as healers and mages out of danger.

Equipment system
A custom equipment system, consisting of the following parts: Head, Chest, Shoulders, Legs, Cloak, Main hand & Off-hand.

Casting System
The ORPG will have a casting system, including castig time that can be interrupted and self aiming spells. Spells will collide with walls and objects and some will bounce or loose power when colliding.

Attributes
The characters will have more than the usual 3 attributes, for example stamina=health & Spellpower=Increased damage with spells.



The Recruitment
Okay, we need the following:

Co-operative Project leader(s) (To help me lead this project, since i might not be able to be around exactly all the time because of school, and since it's my first time leading a project.)
AdzYBoy

Concept/Story writers (Thinking of ideas, writing the story)
Fimbus
Ghoulrush
Spiderskunk
AdzYBoy

Terrainers (Terraining )
Ribenamania
Quetzalcotl

Triggerers (Preferably JASS, for the systems, spells and boss scripts)
Ribenamania
Switch33(vJass)
Hawk900

Modelers (Characters, bosses, enemies, effects, items)

Skinners/Iconmakers (Skins and icons)

Data Editors (Heroes, units and such)
Quetzalcotl

 

[terradont]

*Reserved for updates*

 

[~Void~]

Aww don't copy the talent shit from WoW. Be original >:[

 

[terradont]

Although it may sound like a copy, it is simply inspired by it. My thought was to have several "last" talents that you can get by combining different talents and work yourself towards a special part of the tree. I guess i forgot to write that down, sry bout that.

Say we have a talent tree with water. Then you can go three major parts, which is pure water, ice, and mist, where water is mana based buffs, ice is damage and slow and mist is disruption. When you've achieved special levels, around each tenth level, you will get a special ability based on how many points you have in each type.

So just because you would choose water over fire doesn't mean that you're simply a water magician, but maybe a frost/mist macigian.

 

[Quetzalcotl]

I can do the Data Editor I guess, maybe terrain if you need help with it. Anyway just contact me if I can help.

 

[terradont]

great, i'll add you to the project

I'll notify everyone when we will start.

 

[Quetzalcotl]

Okitoki

 

[Fimbus]

If you still need some I could do some story writing

 

[spiderskunk]

happy to pitch in with story writing or anything, 'fraid I'm not much good at the more nitty gritty elements of modding but I'd be more'n happy to pitch in as far as all that goes.



FIRST POST!

 

[terradont]

Yeah, we need many more if this project is even gonna start, so it is appreciated.

 

[Fimbus]

Okay. Contact me when you need me

 

[Ghoulrush]

I have done story writing around here and can contribute to a team.

Some previous works of mine on a old project:
Races

 

[Switch33]

I can help with spell ideas and i can also help with coding spells/systems. I am fluent in vJass and most of the associated systems that are used with it. I can also help look over triggerers to see mistakes etc. I like the idea of this project and i am eager to start triggering it up.

I however have a few questions/issues with the idea so far. . .

Battle Prep too much of an issue with a save/load?
What sort of time interval or player readying system are we using for in between boss fights where players can select from spells/talents/items for the next boss battle? I mean it takes time to choose most of your spells and talents usually on the other hand items don't take too much time. Do we account for the player who takes too much time? Accounting for save/load codes also increases a lot of the loading time for gathering players.

As far as experience for the hero goes it should be set to 0% per player and probably given per boss kill or so. So you can level the hero each boss fight if the players win. (Probably blatantly obvious...but this fixes problems with you farming over and over the same bosses.)

Mainly the problems i have with the idea are mostly situated with the fact that it is going to be an save/loadable rpg with seemingly long-pretime before bosses. This might ruin it quite a bit a lot of the reason that impossible bosses works is because it starts fast.

Another thing is that with it being an rpg it is also drains from gameplay by filling with story. Story should be limited in retrospect to gameplay somewhat in the sense that there should be no super long stories for the most part and mostly just objectives and storical properties like weaknesses/strengths of heroes/bosses. Sorry, but i simply can't stand super long tooltips about items found in Dota its retarded. Look i found a sword its from the deepest part of hell? Really.. that information isn't needed it's a cool sword maybe a special name (i.e. hell-forged sword) would help or surfice, but descriptive information besides what it does is just plain distracting and a waste of time/effort. How many ppl you think that play any game read long tooltips/story anyways? It's even less on Bnet where there are many ignorant players who will just play games without ever thinking.

(In my idea of story it should be stictly objectivial and you should recieve benefits from doing side quests, and maybe you should be able to leave the arena for a side quest or two somehow. There should probably even be quests that you can do while fighting bosses like finding a hidden passage in the bosses domain to save some survivors from the previous raid the boss did.)


Losses?
Btw what is the loss for losing a boss fight? Maybe it should drop you down into subdivisions with easier bosses sort of like a tournament bracket(if you lose theres always still the loser's bracket) and if you lose enough besides losing gold income you have some other type of setback. (Can't exactly do a defeat condition if you lose so much in a row though i think cause it would be too crazy for an rpg. Heroic mode maybe should be if you lose 3 times you can't continue n you get a savecode but you have to restart in a new game(or at least from boss 1 of heroic version). )

Momentum/Physics should be a good part of the map too since it's somewhat hinted at in the casting system right??

Casting System
The ORPG will have a casting system, including castig time that can be interrupted and self aiming spells. Spells will collide with walls and objects and some will bounce or loose power when colliding

Do we plan on doing the pushing like how it is done in warlocks with momentum building up as you get pushed(i.e. you get pushed one time in the left direction and you get pushed again in the same direction or any other direction besides in the opposite direction resulting in an increased push distance)? If so i think i might be able to trigger this up i was working on this sort of system before i offered to join.

Scripted bosses??
As far as bosses go i think we should make them have sort of a scripted/story sense to them that if you do certain things during certain spells you can survive and beat bosses easier. Like in impossible bosses you have to avoid going into darkness and follow the wisp around whenever the boss casts one spell, or maybe you gotta destroy a few energy shields etc to disable a mechanical bosses' shielding power etc. Maybe a boss or two should have time intervals to win or times when bosses are significantly weaker. Like in games like crash bandicoot where they attack several times then suddenly they become winded and somewhat defenseless giving you the time to strike. We could even use lava or border terrain that drains health with a push type boss.

Dungeon and dragon type roles???
As for the heroes they should probably try to fill up some sort of original Dungeon and Dragon type roles like priest(can heal/mass ressurect), warlock/necro (can debuff), warrior(can sustain dmg) and so on although they may have some spells that are not too fitting with their class. But the specific role each has should have importance. (Priest shouldn't be able to fully heal himself enough times that it doesn't matter and he can basically solo bosses for example.) This might be kind of confusing with the talent system although very doable. Skill trees should be planned out to somewhat account for certain roles for certain heroes.

As for a name maybe something like "Pinnacle Tower"? You try to reach the top of the tower by going up several levels (also known as kill all the bosses to reach the top).

 

[Gikon]

um...I do not know if this is how it works around here ,Since I hail from other modding community..*cough* facepunch *cough*, But...Every thing it takes to make a map, you as the leader are not doing..You are requesting everyone else to do basically everything and follow you will..and such I am guessing you will slap the most credits for yourself..

 

[Switch33]

Well, i think what hes going to do is basically the organizer who determines who works on what and when, or maybe also the implanter if we do seperate maps/scripts and need to import them into the real map. But yea he should also definately think about selecting one of the main areas in the project and sticking to it.

 

[Gikon]

Well, i think what hes going to do is basically the organizer who determines who works on what and when, or maybe also the implanter if we do seperate maps/scripts and need to import them into the real map. But yea he should also definately think about selecting one of the main areas in the project and sticking to it.

Yes that is how it should be..
For example if you posted something like op (open poster) did on facepunch or LG (will not disclose info on LG, sorry) said user would be, not just flamed to death by other users, but also banned or temp-banned. To be harsh, this shit does not work in real life, why here?

 

[terradont]

Battle Prep too much of an issue with a save/load?
What sort of time interval or player readying system are we using for in between boss fights where players can select from spells/talents/items for the next boss battle?

Well, The idea is not like Impossible bosses, since we are going to have lesser enemies there too. It's not just boss after boss, you will have to take yourself through easier enemies, and then you will be able to select your skills later. The really hard enemies won't come until the Heroic difficulty, and there will probably only be serious players who will get there, meaning that they have tactics, manabreaks, and so on.

As far as experience for the hero goes it should be set to 0% per player and probably given per boss kill or so. So you can level the hero each boss fight if the players win. (Probably blatantly obvious...but this fixes problems with you farming over and over the same bosses.)

Yes, the experience shall not be split over several players, and we will make it so that you reach the correct level for the next dungeon on each run.

Mainly the problems i have with the idea are mostly situated with the fact that it is going to be an save/loadable rpg with seemingly long-pretime before bosses. This might ruin it quite a bit a lot of the reason that impossible bosses works is because it starts fast.

Yes, this is a problem. But we will have a starting area where the players will load their characters and such, and then they will not need to load them for the rest of the run.

Another thing is that with it being an rpg it is also drains from gameplay by filling with story.

I don't know where you got the idea that a RPG looses gameplay wiht story but i understand what you mean. What i meant with the story is that it will be tol thorugh bosses and other enemies while you run through the dungeon. No cinematic scenes or such. Also the loading screen will hold some history about the dungeon. THis way those who want may follow the story, and those who don't, well, don't .

And sidequests is a good idea.

Losses?

Btw what is the loss for losing a boss fight?

Well, first of all you will need time to respawn. A healer will be able to ressurect you, but if the healer or the tank dies the rest of your party will be pretty screwed. If the whole party dies, the boss will be reset. In heroic, the bosses will be tougher with every defeat, so if you die on the last boss, tough luck. Now you either have to do the dungeon again or try to kill an even harder boss.

Momentum/Physics should be a good part of the map too since it's somewhat hinted at in the casting system right??

Yes, the casting system is going to be similar to the one in warlocks. Not all spells will pushback, but many will. This makes boss fights much more fun since there is skill in dodging and aiming.

Scripted bosses??
As far as bosses go i think we should make them have sort of a scripted/story sense to them that if you do certain things during certain spells you can survive and beat bosses easier.

You've understood my point completely.

Dungeon and dragon type roles???
As for the heroes they should probably try to fill up some sort of original Dungeon and Dragon type roles.

Yes, there will be certain roles that a class can do. But with the talent system you may mix it to fit your style of play. For example, let's say that a priest doesn't want to heal. He won't need to change class for that, but he will be able to Damage and Crowd Control. He won't be able to tank very well though.

As for a name maybe something like "Pinnacle Tower"? You try to reach the top of the tower by going up several levels (also known as kill all the bosses to reach the top).

That could be a good name. I thought of it as different dungeons in different lands, but it could as well be different floors. This will be the first part we will talk about with the other Story Writers.

@Gikon
Ofcoarse i will work myself. I am a pretty good Data Editor, GUIer, Story Writer and Terrainer(not my strongest part but still not all too bad)
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/images_all/smilies/orchohumarchian.gif
I just haven't written myself up as i will see where i will be most needed.


Finally i've added Switch33, Spiderskunk and Ghoulrush to the project. Please standby as we wait to see if anyone else is going to join. I'll mail all members when the time comes.

 

[Kwah]

Hrm, I may/may not have time to make some spells. Perhaps post a list of spells that you need somewhere, and I'll try to get them done.

 

[terradont]

Okay. I'll add you for the time being, we won't have the concepts up yet though.

 

[Kwah]

Sure. I can code JASS btw.

 

[Ghoulrush]

I have come to the conclusion that all the writing, designs, and ideas I have come up with for this map would work only for a normal RPG without a save-load feature.

The way I see it, a RPG that allows only a handful of people to play should have all the players experience the game together, letting them try to get as far as they can through the linear levels, as the storyline unravels before them as they play. A save-load feature would allow people to bypass this idealism of adventure, ruining the storyline and progression.

In my opinion, the game should have checkpoints in each stage of the game that enter a specific code for the player. And the game would only start if all players were on the same checkpoint.

If this is going to have a normal save-load then I'm afraid you will have to remove me from the team.

 

[terradont]

The reason we need a save-load system is that the project requires several maps, and i doubt that anyone will play through them all in one rush, especially not 10 players.

There will be level requirements for each dungeon, and you will have to play each dungeon before you can enter the next one, so you won't miss anything.

And you need not to think that much about the story yet, since i have a basis that we will try to work through and we haven't started yet

 

[Ghoulrush]

The reason we need a save-load system is that the project requires several maps, and i doubt that anyone will play through them all in one rush, especially not 10 players.

There will be level requirements for each dungeon, and you will have to play each dungeon before you can enter the next one, so you won't miss anything.

My points still stand.

And you need not to think that much about the story yet, since i have a basis that we will try to work through and we haven't started yet

I join projects after I have already thought of a good deal of writing for them, yours is no exception. I just unfortunately forgot it was an ORPG rather than an RPG.

 

[terradont]

Well, my point is there is no need to work yourself out just yet. As it seems now we won't have enough members to work on this.

And i don't quite understand your point with checkpoints. If i understood it correctly you mean that you cannot join a map if you haven't done a special map?

 

[Ghoulrush]

Here is what it basically comes down to: Will a character be able to do a dungeon more than once if that character has already beat it?

 

[Switch33]

That is kind of what I was getting at.. i'm not sure save/load is still the best idea. Sure it sounds great feature wise and lots of maps etc but for this type of map complications arise rediculously.

How will people be able to play with different lvls and wutnot? Allowing people to repeat bosses maybe?.. or forcing them to repeat bosses to help low levelers?.. its kind of a strange perdicament.

I'm all for it if we can find a workaround for all these issues that arise, but i just don't see it happening since it's very hard to counteract many of these things without making it too much of a bar difference between players who have played and players who are just starting.
(This is actually why rpgs mostly fail. . . there becomes an evident gap between the new and the experienced players, and the experienced players never want to play with the new players anymore.)

It will take even more time than choosing skills, which is another thing i'm unsure of how we can produce to be efficient enough.

I think my best solution to the "picking skills problem" would be some kind of system where you can choose skills inside the arena as well by like a building on the side of the map you can select to change skills. As for requirements; you can only switch skills when your spell in that slot is not on cooldown and you have enough pts at the right level.
(This prevents entering the arena without a skill or two cause you ran out of the time limit before entering the arena.)

 

[Ghoulrush]

That is kind of what I was getting at.. i'm not sure save/load is still the best idea. Sure it sounds great feature wise and lots of maps etc but for this type of map complications arise rediculously.

How will people be able to play with different lvls and wutnot? Allowing people to repeat bosses maybe?.. or forcing them to repeat bosses to help low levelers?.. its kind of a strange perdicament.

I'm all for it if we can find a workaround for all these issues that arise, but i just don't see it happening since it's very hard to counteract many of these things without making it too much of a bar difference between players who have played and players who are just starting.
(This is actually why rpgs mostly fail. . . there becomes an evident gap between the new and the experienced players, and the experienced players never want to play with the new players anymore.)

It will take even more time than choosing skills, which is another thing i'm unsure of how we can produce to be efficient enough.

I think my best solution to the "picking skills problem" would be some kind of system where you can choose skills inside the arena as well by like a building on the side of the map you can select to change skills. As for requirements; you can only switch skills when your spell in that slot is not on cooldown and you have enough pts at the right level.
(This prevents entering the arena without a skill or two cause you ran out of the time limit before entering the arena.)

Yep, thats definately a point.

In addition, storyline is always more drab and less meaningful if a boss can be killed more than once on the same character, especially if the game only consists of about 10 people.

Plus, the idea of challenge and adventure would go down the drain if lowlevels could just be powerleveled by higher levels.

This is another aspect where ORPGs on wc3 usually fail, they have no clear goals in sight. They are all about getting the highest level or best gear, meaning that the player will slowly get more bored as he realizes that the game is all about grinding. Where as normal RPGs are all about.. well.. beating it.

I can deal with the save-load thing as long as high levels can't power level low levels, or even do the same dungeon twice on the same character.

 

[terradont]

Well, i guess you could add a system that keeps the player from playing the same level twice, that's not too hard. The problem with that is though that it would be hard to find players. We probably need to reduce number of players to 5-6 then.
This also means that we should focus more on making the story and also on making the bosses fun, especially to make them different in Heroics. After the Heroics there could be a definite end boss, or we could do more dungeons and skip the heroics.

The story i thought of was that you are in a great tower, in where time isn't flowing correctly. Each floor is connected to a time when something big happened. The time has now been manipulated by the Chronolord, which is the last boss, and he stands in the top floor. This means you would have to beat every floor to get up to him.

 

[Ghoulrush]

Well, i guess you could add a system that keeps the player from playing the same level twice, that's not too hard. The problem with that is though that it would be hard to find players. We probably need to reduce number of players to 5-6 then.
This also means that we should focus more on making the story and also on making the bosses fun, especially to make them different in Heroics. After the Heroics there could be a definite end boss, or we could do more dungeons and skip the heroics.

The story i thought of was that you are in a great tower, in where time isn't flowing correctly. Each floor is connected to a time when something big happened. The time has now been manipulated by the Chronolord, which is the last boss, and he stands in the top floor. This means you would have to beat every floor to get up to him.

Sounds exactly like caverns of time, it probably will need to be more unique.

Plus, the same setting and premise throughout the entire game? I initially thought of a similar deal, except a different setting. I then realized that if the game is going to be a very long and indepth game, it would have to span over multiple places and multiple dungeons. I could PM you what I have already thought of so far if you want.


There would also be no point in heroics if players can only do a dungeon once (Which could be the best way).

 

[terradont]

Yeah well, the point was that there wouldn't be the same setting, the floors is time/space-warps from another time & place. This was actually not inspired from Caverns of Time, but Timesplitters.

But i am open for ideas. PM me about what you've come up with.



Still, there doesn't seem to be enough people to join. We still need terrainers, modelers and skinners. Also a second project-leader would be good, as i stated in the main post. Just to lighten some weight of my shoulders when(and if) we start.

 

[Ghoulrush]

But i am open for ideas. PM me about what you've come up with.

I'll be sure to get it to you tommorow.

Still, there doesn't seem to be enough people to join. We still need terrainers, modelers and skinners.

We can pick those jobs up later, screenshots usually attract those types of artists. Plus we already have a terrainer or two, so presenting our map shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Also a second project-leader would be good, as i stated in the main post. Just to lighten some weight of my shoulders when(and if) we start.

I assume it would be one of the other designers. I've never seen a warcraft 3 project where project leader was a sole job.

 

[terradont]

I'll be sure to get it to you tommorow.

Good.

We can pick those jobs up later, screenshots usually attract those types of artists. Plus we already have a terrainer or two, so presenting our map shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Yes, i guess. Well then, i'll get a forum up and we can all talk more detailed about what we are going to do with this project. I'll PM you all as sooon as i've got it up.

I assume it would be one of the other designers. I've never seen a warcraft 3 project where project leader was a sole job.

Ofcoarse not, but no-one has volunteered yet. We'll see later about that.

 

[Switch33]

We still need terrainers, modelers and skinners.

I can have people i know do some of these side jobs like modeling, as long as the modeling isn't too complex like making whole models. There are way more than enough models at wc3campaigns, hive, and wc3helper. As for terraining i'm rather good at it just it takes more time than other things so I might take on some side terrain work as well.

 

[terradont]

Yes well, for the modeling some effects and geoset merging would probably be enough, but the thing i had in mind is some of the most important bosses. They should be highly customizised to our advantage, with animations and such fitting their spells.
(for example a peon boss with bladestorm wouldn't work)

 

[AdzYboy]

Hey man...

i actually study games design and am focusing on project management... i would be happy to assist you on the management side..

also on the concept and story stuff i can throw in my valuable 2 cents.

any way gimme a shout back if you want me

love adzy

 

[terradont]

I'll add you to the project

 

[AdzYboy]

do you have any idea when work shall start?

also curious what fields you are good at?

 

[terradont]

I'm currently trying to find a forum for us to work on, then we will start working on the concepts and story. I will PM everyone when it's time, it shouldn't take longer than this weekend.

 

[Kwah]

I'm currently trying to find a forum for us to work on, then we will start working on the concepts and story. I will PM everyone when it's time, it shouldn't take longer than this weekend.

www.erfi.co.nr

Take it. I made it ages ago, just for the purpose of making a forum.

 

[AdzYboy]

bump..


this still alive or what?

 

[terradont]

This is alive. Hawk900 offered himself to fix another forum than the one he linked earlier in this thread. I've had trouble with my internet, so i haven't really spoken to him since.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Ok, this seems nice.

How many 'units' do you control?

Camera system?

Arrowkeys are used for what?

Incarnations? Would be cool.

 

[terradont]

Ok, this seems nice.

How many 'units' do you control?

Camera system?

Arrowkeys are used for what?

Incarnations? Would be cool.

You control 1 hero, and summons for those classes that have them.

The camera is supposed to to be as usual, and it's going to have click-to-move as usual.

Incarnation? What do you mean by that?

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Chanting spells.
Either writing them, or in some way, doing something (Such as pressing arrowkeys in an order) before being able to cast the spell.

 

[Empiredeath]

Do you guys need any help? or is everything set and ready to rumble ?

 

[terradont]

Chanting spells.
Either writing them, or in some way, doing something (Such as pressing arrowkeys in an order) before being able to cast the spell.

Aha. I don't think we will have something like that, but we haven't talked through about concepts at all yet, so it is possible.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Hehe ^^

If it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit.

 

[terradont]

Do you guys need any help? or is everything set and ready to rumble ?

That depends on what you can do. Story Writing and Concept is rather filled at the moment.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Terra, haven't you seen his spell?

 

[terradont]

Nope, don't think so. I don't remember the authour of every resource i see :S