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Death with Dignity

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Level 35
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It is in my experience that pain != dignity.

Infact, sometimes the most dignified moment of a persons life is when they can look up in their agony and give a weak thumbs up.

Likewise: Pain and suffering can be enriching. Sure, it hurts...but 'count your blessings' as the old saying goes. Chose how you will die if you must, but don't ere' in thinking that just because you are sick, or in pain, or terminally ill, that you are now "less than human", because you are more human, more innocent, and more in-tune with life when you know you will lose it, and thus you have the dignity that comes with such deadly wisdom.
 
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They do, however, when they're dying of a terminal illness.

If you manage to get one, in most cases you'll suffer almost unendurable pain, loss of physical motor skills and that's not even including the mental side. You can enjoy slowly losing your mental health, whilst enjoying the feeling of every tiny little piece of intelligence you once had wither and wane.

You should try it out sometime.
What exactly takes away the persons dignity? Right now you seem to be arguing by appealing to the emotions. You didn't prove or explain anything.

That last statement is entirely immature.
 
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Their dignity is taken away by the fact that they have no physical control--often shitting/weeing themselves--and their intelligence diminishes too.
So if I can't control my bowls and I'm unintelligent, I lose my dignity? By that logic a mentally handicapped person has no dignity. You're the one not giving them their dignity.

That last statement was TL;DR'd.
Exactly.
 

Ash

Ash

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So you'd gladly let your sibling, one who expressly stated that they'd like Euphanasing , live on with knowledge that they'll begin to lose physical control (including bowl control) and lose their mental knowledge?

You might say you won't, but I'd doubt that you wouldn't seriously consider it.
 
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Well, I've decided to contribute here once more and bring up my opinnion.

I would say that it would be immoral to LET a person live who is suffering from something that is draining his physical and mental health, and there is no way to stop it. I don't mean kill him immidiedly, but at some point he has to be killed. He cannot be forced to live as a vegetable through machines.

Also about the dignity thing. I don't think losing bowel control itself causes him to lose his dignity. It's the ridicule he has to suffer because of it. Throught the ridicule he suffers he loses his dignity.

(yay 500 posts)
 
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No, your dignity was lost because you were a once clever person, apparently.
So old people that start having mental problems, lose their dignity?

I would say that it would be immoral to LET a person live who is suffering from something that is draining his physical and mental health, and there is no way to stop it. I don't mean kill him immidiedly, but at some point he has to be killed. He cannot be forced to live as a vegetable through machines.

Also about the dignity thing. I don't think losing bowel control itself causes him to lose his dignity. It's the ridicule he has to suffer because of it. Throught the ridicule he suffers he loses his dignity.
I agree that if the person is on life support, and there is no way they can recover, you have to take them off it and let them die. There's a huge difference between killing them and letting them die.

So you lose your dignity when you are ridiculed? So if I ridicule you, you should just end your life?
 
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So old people that start having mental problems, lose their dignity?
With the stories I heard of my high-school psych's (grand?)father, I would say Alzheimer's does a pretty good job of taking your dignity from you, whether you realise it or not.

I agree that if the person is on life support, and there is no way they can recover, you have to take them off it and let them die. There's a huge difference between killing them and letting them die.
Well they are going to be miserable and useless and on life-support, if they want it to end before then, I think they should be allowed that choice.
 
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With the stories I heard of my high-school psych's (grand?)father, I would say Alzheimer's does a pretty good job of taking your dignity from you, whether you realise it or not.
How does it take your dignity from you? Again, I think our definitions of dignity are entirely different. Dignity isn't something people or illness can take from you.

Well they are going to be miserable and useless and on life-support, if they want it to end before then, I think they should be allowed that choice.
You guys talk like being sick makes them miserable. It's a persons choice to be miserable.
 
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Pretty much, yeah.

Especially when you see a once proud figure, whom has gone from quite a good life, lost their intelligence, then you'll see what I mean.
I have seen it. They don't lose their dignity.

Wikipedia said:
When this concept is associated with the adjective "human", it is used to signify that all human beings possess intrinsic worthiness and deserve unconditional respect, regardless of age, sex, health status, social or ethnic origin, political ideas, religion, or criminal history
 

Ash

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It's not about what they appear to you, though; it's what how they appear to themselves. I'm not saying we take the decision for him, because it's fairly self-evident what someone would chose when told that they're going to suffer from Alzheimer's Disease.

I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want to suffer any of the following:

DSM said:
Predementia

The first symptoms are often mistaken as related to ageing or stress. Detailed neuropsychological testing can reveal mild cognitive difficulties up to eight years before a person fulfills the clinical criteria for diagnosis of AD. These early symptoms can affect the most complex daily living activities. The most noticeable deficit is memory loss, which shows up as difficulty in remembering recently learned facts and inability to acquire new information. Subtle problems with the executive functions of attentiveness, planning, flexibility, and abstract thinking, or impairments in semantic memory (memory of meanings, and concept relationships), can also be symptomatic of the early stages of AD. Apathy can be observed at this stage, and remains the most persistent neuropsychiatric symptom throughout the course of the disease. The preclinical stage of the disease has also been termed mild cognitive impairment, but there is still debate on whether this term corresponds to a different diagnostic entity by itself or just a first step of the disease.

Early dementia

In people with AD the increasing impairment of learning and memory eventually leads to a definitive diagnosis. In a small proportion of them, difficulties with language, executive functions, perception (agnosia), or execution of movements (apraxia) are more prominent than memory problems. AD does not affect all memory capacities equally. Older memories of the person's life (episodic memory), facts learned (semantic memory), and implicit memory (the memory of the body on how to do things, such as using a fork to eat) are affected to a lesser degree than new facts or memories. Language problems are mainly characterised by a shrinking vocabulary and decreased word fluency, which lead to a general impoverishment of oral and written language. In this stage, the person with Alzheimer's is usually capable of adequately communicating basic ideas. While performing fine motor tasks such as writing, drawing or dressing, certain movement coordination and planning difficulties (apraxia) may be present, making sufferers appear clumsy. As the disease progresses, people with AD can often continue to perform many tasks independently, but may need assistance or supervision with the most cognitively demanding activities.

Moderate dementia

Progressive deterioration eventually hinders independence.[30] Speech difficulties become evident due to an inability to recall vocabulary, which leads to frequent incorrect word substitutions (paraphasias). Reading and writing skills are also progressively lost. Complex motor sequences become less coordinated as time passes, reducing the ability to perform most normal daily living activities. During this phase, memory problems worsen, and the person may fail to recognise close relatives. Long-term memory, which was previously intact, becomes impaired, and behavioural changes become more prevalent. Common neuropsychiatric manifestations are wandering, sundowning, irritability and labile affect, leading to crying, outbursts of unpremeditated aggression, or resistance to caregiving. Approximately 30% of patients also develop illusionary misidentifications and other delusional symptoms. Urinary incontinence can develop. These symptoms create stress for relatives and caretakers, which can be reduced by moving the person from home care to other long-term care facilities.

Advanced dementia

During this last stage of AD, the patient is completely dependent upon caregivers. Language is reduced to simple phrases or even single words, eventually leading to complete loss of speech. Despite the loss of verbal language abilities, patients can often understand and return emotional signals. Although aggressiveness can still be present, extreme apathy and exhaustion are much more common results. Patients will ultimately not be able to perform even the most simple tasks without assistance. Muscle mass and mobility deteriorate to the point where they are bedridden, and they lose the ability to feed themselves. Finally comes death, usually caused directly by some external factor such as pressure ulcers or pneumonia, not by the disease itself.
 
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Alzheimer's is a terrible disease. My maternal grandfather and paternal grandmother both died of Alzheimer's disease, in their final years, my grandmother didn't remember me properly and needed constant reminders. My grandfather had trouble recalling who I was but did remember me to some extent.

I can't say they have dignity if they die of Alzheimer's disease or Dementia. You forget a lot things you've once loved, including family & friends and you lose many precious memories and experiences you've had.
 
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You're just totally missing the point.
What point did I miss? You made posted information on how horrible a certain disease is. What's the point behind that? Your arguing based on emotion again. Just because I don't want that disease, doesn't mean I lose my dignity when I have it. Nor does it mean I can commit suicide.
 

Ash

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What point did I miss? You made posted information on how horrible a certain disease is. What's the point behind that? Your arguing based on emotion again. Just because I don't want that disease, doesn't mean I lose my dignity when I have it. Nor does it mean I can commit suicide.

I have never been arguing with emotion, Gilles. Alzhymer's is a terminal disease.

I pointed out its effects, and how it can degrade someone's character as a means of showing you how a once proud person can lose their dignity.

You basically replied with 'WUT DOES DAT HAVE 2 DO WITH TEH PRINCE OF BUTTAR LOLLOLO'.

:)
 
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I have never been arguing with emotion, Gilles. Alzhymer's is a terminal disease.

I pointed out its effects, and how it can degrade someone's character as a means of showing you how a once proud person can lose their dignity.
By saying "can lose their dignity", you mean that the "once proud person", lost their dignity by choice? They won't necessarily lose it though?

As well, can you define dignity for me?.
 

Ash

Ash

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Well, does is a better word than can.

And sure, I'll define dignity:

Dignity n 1 Composure and self control 2 the quality of being worthy or esteemed

Source: Penguin Pocket [Lies, it does not fit in a pocket - Ed] English Dictionary.
 
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Ahh, yeah that makes more sense with what you have been saying.

I've been thinking along the lines of Human Dignity.
 
Well, I've decided to contribute here once more and bring up my opinnion.

I would say that it would be immoral to LET a person live who is suffering from something that is draining his physical and mental health, and there is no way to stop it. I don't mean kill him immidiedly, but at some point he has to be killed. He cannot be forced to live as a vegetable through machines.

Also about the dignity thing. I don't think losing bowel control itself causes him to lose his dignity. It's the ridicule he has to suffer because of it. Throught the ridicule he suffers he loses his dignity.

(yay 500 posts)

nothing, and i say nothing aproves that the man is to be "killed" as you say. the more apropriate word is "laid to rest"

and here's a perfect example of what i think is loosing dignity: (altho i could be wrong)

a japanese samurais used to comit harakiri when loosing their master OR when they comited something unthinkable. and THAT is, acording to me "loosing dignity" (harakiri act also gave the samurais some dignity back)

no mental or psysical illness will make people loose dignity.
Finito :3

~Misha~
 
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Then again, we're back to the old question: 'what's dignity?' For a samurai, the answer must have been very different from ours. I'd say we stick to the fact that it is a subjective matter. Along those lines, i'd say only you can tell when you lost your dignity, nobody else can determine it for you.
 
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If you have effectively been given an expiry date, is it really suicide to move that date up before the related unpleasantries start? Also, I thought Alzheimer's literally rotted/consumed/whatever holes in your brain, but you died of related complications before dying of Alzheimer's itself.
 
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If you have effectively been given an expiry date, is it really suicide to move that date up before the related unpleasantries start? Also, I thought Alzheimer's literally rotted/consumed/whatever holes in your brain, but you died of related complications before dying of Alzheimer's itself.

Well, Alzheimer's itself isn't fatal but it leads up to complications that usually becomes fatal.

And suicide I don't know if it is a dignifying death. But it really depends on the perspective of people whether its dignifying or not.
 
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Not necessarily a dignified death, but the most dignified death plausible under the given circumstances.
 
If i were to get some deadly disease, i'd rather say goodbye to the people i love while i can still recognize them and go die aware of myself. But that's just me. Some people believe in miracles, others have faith.

have you watched one movie where the main charr thinks the same and orders to be assasinated? xD
 
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