Death with Dignity

[Ash]

Okay, this is serious discussion time.

Hell on Earth is a controversial heavy metal and industrial rock band. In September 2003 lead singer BillY Tourtelot said the band accepted a terminally ill fan's request to die on stage during the band's concert scheduled for October 4, 2003 in St. Petersburg, Florida. Consequently, Florida Governor Jeb Bush and Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist announced that the band would be prosecuted for assisting with suicide.

I'm not sure if it actually went ahead and the guy killed himself, it's besides the point. What's your stance on things like this? Do you agree that people should have the right to 'die with dignity'?

I know this happened a long time ago, but it would be interesting to see what you all think about it, so go ahead; humour me.

NB for mods: I don't have access to Mediev's tower, nor would I want to post something like this in there; that group is full of big heads and people whose ego is the same size as their waist--and that's huge. If you'd like to close the thread because 'it gets too serious', then contact me first and at least give me a good reason... Unless you're brad, in which case you're awesome and can go ahead. Luv u brad <33

 

[LordDz]

I don't like it for the simple reason that I don't like seeing people die, I mean: sure he wanted to die because he was ill, but how does it affect the mood on the others who are there? Do they really want to see a man dying while they rock to the music?

 

[LiOneSS]

Dying with diginity is impossible... death itself isn't dignified, lol. And LordDZ is right, seeing someone die isn't the nicest thing to witness.

 

[Ash]

You've got the choice not to attend the concert

He's terminally ill, he's going to die one way or another. I'd rather die before the stage where I can't control my own actions, personally, though.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

Meh.

At first glance i would say "He can die the way he want to, if it doesn't enludge other people getting hurt, so that would be perfectly fine", but also, people there would be hurt. Not physical, but mental. Also, its kinda weird wanting to killing yourself while people watch.

Edit: Isn't suicide ilegal, and thus he shouldn't do it?

 

[Velmarshal]

As much as I got it its something like:
Sick Fan: Hey
Rock Star: Hey
Sick Fan: Can you kill yourself on your next concert?
Rock Star: Sure
Am I right?

off-topic: Oh noez I am a big head.

 

[Viikuna]

You should be able to end your life in your own way in your own time, but it doesnt really mean killing yourself.

Its more like accepting something you cannot change.

Death is as natural as it is to beign born.
It is not an 'evil' thing. Evil is something that people do to each other. Killing is evil. Death is only natural.

Isnt it wonderfull that someday we all find what happens after death?

 

[Callahan]

There's no dignity at all dying during a concert among unknown people who might be horrifyed or indifferent.

And maybe the rock band accepted someone suiciding during their concert because it's a scandalous event that might make them good advertising but in fact they don't care about that guy.After all it's just a stalking fan to them...maybe.

 

[Ash]

There's no dignity at all dying during a concert among unknown people who might be horrifyed or indifferent.

And maybe the rock band accepted someone suiciding during their concert because it's a scandalous event that might make them good advertising but in fact they don't care about that guy.After all it's just a stalking fan to them...maybe.

There's no dignity dying whilst pissing/passing crap/choking on your own blood/dying a slow and painful death from cancer/gradually getting stupider because of a brain disease either.

Maybe the band actually accepted it because they wanted to raise awareness.

 

[Callahan]

And in some case the death is not the end but a mean.
If you suffer an unbearable and uncurable pain then death is a way to go.
Dying is not your primary objectif but ending the pain.

If death is your primary objectif then people who wants to control the way they die are lame because the result will be the same in any case you're dead.So how could you give a damn about how you did died?
Seriously if you have an heartattack while masturbating.You coudln't think "Oh shit I just died while masturbating and i'm not shaved nor haired omg that sucks my corpse will looks so ridiculous.Shame on me.The undertaker will have a lot of job".No because you're dead.

 

[Ash]

That didn't really make sense...

 

[Zombie]

Letting a fan commit suicide on stage is a rather attention whorish thing, I believe. It's highly possible that this band went into this thing to raise people's attention, and they've completed their goal.

About suiciding, I agree with the others. Every human being has the right to die, as long as s/he stays away from public, and does it without shocking so many people. Every human posesses his/her life and has the right to do anything with it.

Despite all that, I think the way laws control suicing is good, because it would be really difficult to prove suicide and also, by making suiciding legal, you'd also promote it and encourage people to commit suicide.

 

[TheDivineBoss]

Death with dignity is like a 14 year old gamerkid commiting suicide, just to see if he respawns.

 

[The_Taxidermist]

hatin on the tower huh

I can get behind that.

 

[Callahan]

That didn't really make sense...

Yes it does.
Killing yourself just for the sake of controlling the way you die doesn't make sense.
Killing yourself because you know your days will just be pain and suffering and willing to stop it now that makes sense.

Maybe the band actually accepted it because they wanted to raise awareness.

I don't see awareness in that move.
What's the point of killing yourself during a concert?
It's would be better to watch the concert entirely and killing yourself after.
People could think he committed suicide because the band sucks.It's not very respectful for the band either.

 

[Ash]

His call, if he wants something to go right in his ill-forbid life, then let him.

I'd see it as a celebration of his life, if anything; he's lived a good life and now he's dying before shit becomes real.

Makes sense, at least.

 

[Captain Griffen]

What gives you the right to say to him that he can't end his pain where and when he wants to? The only people who'd potentially suffer would be those who voluntarily went to the concert, and the rule of law (at least in the UK), and of common sense, is you cannot complain about something you did without coercion.

Any of you lived with constant pain? If you haven't, you probably can't, if you have, then imagine that, but without any hope of anything but it getting worse until you die.

I know I'd choose death at a time of my own choosing.

 

[Zombie]

What gives you the right to say to him that he can't end his pain where and when he wants to?

What if I want to end my life by suicide-bombing myself in a mall?

The only people who'd potentially suffer would be those who voluntarily went to the concert, and the rule of law (at least in the UK), and of common sense, is you cannot complain about something you did without coercion.

What if they didn't know this event would happen? Also, we're talking about the States.

Any of you lived with constant pain? If you haven't, you probably can't, if you have, then imagine that, but without any hope of anything but it getting worse until you die.

You can also end your life in a close room without shocking thousands of people.

 

[Ash]

What if I want to end my life by suicide-bombing myself in a mall?

Then that's not death with dignity, that's death by an asshole.

What if they didn't know this event would happen? Also, we're talking about the States.

It was advertised with it, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law

You can also end your life in a close room without shocking thousands of people.

...?

 

[Captain Griffen]

What if I want to end my life by suicide-bombing myself in a mall?

You're allowed. Under 2 conditions.

1) You don't kill/injure anyone who didn't volunteer, knowing full well the risks.
2) You own the mall.

What if they didn't know this event would happen? Also, we're talking about the States.

What Ash said. So long as it is advertised such that it would be reasonable to expect people to know.

You can also end your life in a close room without shocking thousands of people.

So? I can end your life with a machine gun. Does that mean I should...?

 

[Hakeem]

You do not choose when to die, unless it is to stop incredible suffering.

You want to die with dignity, you gotta be Steve Irwin.

If the detail that the kid was suffering was not mentioned but was present, then sure, he's got an excuse to end his life sooner. If the detail was not present, then he threw away whatever good time he had left. GG, noob.

"OMG WE LOST ROUND ONE!"
*quits*

 

[Gilles]

I would agree with the government on this one. Suicide is wrong.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Keeping people alive against their will when they are in agony is nothing but torture.

So torture and the destruction of free will are right, and control over your own life is wrong?

 

[brad.dude03]

I'm with Griffen as well. If he wants to die and he's not hurting anyone, let him, especially because he's terminally ill.

 

[Zombie]

It was advertised with it, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law

I wasn't aware of that. You only said the lead singer "said". You didn't say it was either announced or just privately said and got into the public only after the prosecution.

...?

Sorry, I made a typo, I wanted to write "closed", but I can't edit posts in SE.

You're allowed. Under 2 conditions.

1) You don't kill/injure anyone who didn't volunteer, knowing full well the risks.
2) You own the mall.

You have a point, if they know the guy will commit suicide and still attend the concert, then they have only themselves to blame.

On a sidenote, does mentally being shocked count as an injury? There are people who freak out on the simple sight of blood.

So? I can end your life with a machine gun. Does that mean I should...?

Sure, as long as you kill me in combat. That IS dying with dignity.

You do not choose when to die, unless it is to stop incredible suffering.

True, but if you want to do it, don't involve others.

 

[Tyranid]

An hero was almost born?

 

[Ash]

WAT? This was moved to SE? It's a serious bloody topic!

 

[Gilles]

Keeping people alive against their will when they are in agony is nothing but torture.

So torture and the destruction of free will are right, and control over your own life is wrong?

Yep. The Human body is sacred, a gift from God.

 

[Ash]

Okay then, think about it this way. Person X receives 1,000–5,000 REMs of Radiation, it is doubtless that he will die, however because of the dosage it will be a prolonged and painful death involving, but certainly not limited to, cell death in the gastric and intestinal tissue--causing massive diarrhea--intestinal bleeding and loss of water--leads to water-electrolyte imbalance. Death, after a period of around a week, sets in with delirium and a coma due to breakdown of circulation.

Are you honestly saying we should sit and watch this guy go through this because it is a 'gift from god'? And on the note of a gift from god, it's going to be defiled by the sickness. Should you not kill it before this happens?

 

[TheDivineBoss]

I suggest we should create a Church of Atom here on the site, form a city around an undetonated nuke and praise it.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Yep. The Human body is sacred, a gift from God.

So you are in favour of religious belief being used as justification for torture? So my belief that humanity is sinful can be used as justification for rape, yay!

This does actually logically follow if you're against rape for the usual reasons. So gtfo, since your argument is massively flawed.

 

[Gilles]

Okay then, think about it this way. Person X receives 1,000–5,000 REMs of Radiation, it is doubtless that he will die, however because of the dosage it will be a prolonged and painful death involving, but certainly not limited to, cell death in the gastric and intestinal tissue--causing massive diarrhea--intestinal bleeding and loss of water--leads to water-electrolyte imbalance. Death, after a period of around a week, sets in with delirium and a coma due to breakdown of circulation.

Are you honestly saying we should sit and watch this guy go through this because it is a 'gift from god'? And on the note of a gift from god, it's going to be defiled by the sickness. Should you not kill it before this happens?

Yep.

So you are in favour of religious belief being used as justification for torture? So my belief that humanity is sinful can be used as justification for rape, yay!

This does actually logically follow if you're against rape for the usual reasons. So gtfo, since your argument is massively flawed.

That first part is an awful comparison, rape and not allowing euthanasia is entirely different.

It's flawed if you don't believe that the body is a holy temple.

Out of the pain and suffering comes new life. God has a plan even through death and suffering.

 

[Zombie]

Guys, may I ask you to leave religion out of this discussion? Since our religious views obviously differ, involving religion into this topic would only generate unnecessary offensive behaviour, and therefore, it would kill the sense of this topic.

Thanks.

 

[Captain Griffen]

Gilles, I suggest you do not respond to this unless you're going to actually think logically about it. Don't question my conclusion, question either the arguments or the assumptions - and if you try and question the argument I'll go properly formulate it and prove it and then you'll have just the assumptions to question.

That first part is an awful comparison, rape and not allowing euthanasia is entirely different.

You belief that you can force your religious belief's concerning other people's bodies upon them, even where it causes them grave and massive harm. Now, if you can think of any other reasons to be against rape, please, be my guest, but the main ones are autonomy and harm, both of which you belief subservient to religion.

If you have no other objections to rape that do not fall into those two catagories, then being against religiously back raped is inconsistent with being for stopping euthanasia/suicide on the grounds you stated (other grounds of practicality, etc, sure, but please get your reasoning right).

Out of the pain and suffering comes new life. God has a plan even through death and suffering.

Oh, so god's plan is more important than avoiding suffering or people's autonomy? Great, I'm gunna start up a religion and then get myself some good time with other people suffering without any choice in the matter then.

 

[Gilles]

Gilles, I suggest you do not respond to this unless you're going to actually think logically about it. Don't question my conclusion, question either the arguments or the assumptions - and if you try and question the argument I'll go properly formulate it and prove it and then you'll have just the assumptions to question.

That sounds like you think I've been illogical thus far. I'm offended.


In this next paragraph I'm having trouble understanding you. I think your grammar could use some tweaks. I'm not trying to use that as an excuse, I'm being completely honest. Now then I'll reply to what I think your saying...

You belief that you can force your religious belief's concerning other people's bodies upon them, even where it causes them grave and massive harm. Now, if you can think of any other reasons to be against rape, please, be my guest, but the main ones are autonomy and harm, both of which you belief subservient to religion.

If you have no other objections to rape that do not fall into those two catagories, then being against religiously back raped is inconsistent with being for stopping euthanasia/suicide on the grounds you stated (other grounds of practicality, etc, sure, but please get your reasoning right).

You simply pointed out that rape and certain deadly diseases (or at least I think you did) can have similar effects on the body. You're ignoring the fact that in rape, you are causing harm, or "sinning". If you allow someone to go through a terminal illness, you aren't causing them any harm directly. Unless law changes, and you are duty bound to kill someone who is suffering, rape and un-euthanasia (for lack of a better word) are not comparable.

If Euthanasia is just and right, what about someone that is not dying, but suffers mentally from a loss or depression? Are they allowed to kill themselves? If so, what about just anyone? Can I go kill myself just because I want to? What about mentally handicapped people? What about old people that have no more use? I know I've blown thing up now, but I can see one leading to another.

Oh, so god's plan is more important than avoiding suffering or people's autonomy? Great, I'm gunna start up a religion and then get myself some good time with other people suffering without any choice in the matter then.

I'm not quite following. You're going to create a religion where you try and suffer? If you meant a religion that tolerates suffering, then look no further than the Catholic church. Many people count suffering as a blessing, an opportunity to offer up their suffering to God.

Mother Teresa once had a dying child in her arms. She asked him why he was crying. He replied that he was sad because he had only just head about Jesus, and now that he was dying he couldn't offer up his suffering to him.

Suffering is a cross we must bear.


Edit: Just as a note, I'm not a blind zealot following the church. I often take part in discussions like these to find answers. You've honestly made good points and I've had to question my faith. I even had to do a bit of research and thinking about this. I'm still strong in my convictions that the Church is correct in her stance though.

 

[Ash]

The thing is, Gilles, you're imposing your religious belief on others.

The point of the matter is that god created us all with 'free will'; if people want to follow a different religion then they can. By saying 'suffering is a cross we must bear' you're imposing our free will that was provided to us by your deity.

 

[Gilles]

The thing is, Gilles, you're imposing your religious belief on others.

The point of the matter is that god created us all with 'free will'; if people want to follow a different religion then they can. By saying 'suffering is a cross we must bear' you're imposing our free will that was provided to us by your deity.

The good ol'forcing your beliefs on others argument eh? I thought you were better than that Ash. Someones beliefs are forced when governments make laws, does that mean we shouldn't have them?

Imposing on your free will? How so? You always have free will, but there are also consequences. Some things are right, some are wrong, it's not about imposing beliefs, it's about truth.

People don't seem to believe in truth anymore.

 

[Ash]

One man's truths is another man's garbage.

 

[Ash]

One man's truths are another man's garbage*

Get this thread out of SE.

 

[Captain Griffen]

That sounds like you think I've been illogical thus far. I'm offended.

Most people are. That you are offended is further proof tbh.

You simply pointed out that rape and certain deadly diseases (or at least I think you did) can have similar effects on the body. You're ignoring the fact that in rape, you are causing harm, or "sinning". If you allow someone to go through a terminal illness, you aren't causing them any harm directly. Unless law changes, and you are duty bound to kill someone who is suffering, rape and un-euthanasia (for lack of a better word) are not comparable.

Difference between ALLOWING and FORCING. You *are* forcing them if you stop them from escaping.

If Euthanasia is just and right, what about someone that is not dying, but suffers mentally from a loss or depression? Are they allowed to kill themselves? If so, what about just anyone? Can I go kill myself just because I want to? What about mentally handicapped people? What about old people that have no more use? I know I've blown thing up now, but I can see one leading to another.

Yes.

I'm not quite following. You're going to create a religion where you try and suffer? If you meant a religion that tolerates suffering, then look no further than the Catholic church. Many people count suffering as a blessing, an opportunity to offer up their suffering to God.

Your religion tolerates and even, in your own words, force people to endure it.

Suffering is a cross we must bear.

No it's not. We have a choice.



Rape is wrong only because it is not voluntary and causes harm.

You want to stop people voluntarily committing suicide / stop people helping them.

This will cause harm to them against their will.

You want to allow this on religious grounds.

This is an example of religion trumping people's right not to be harmed unvoluntarily.

Hence, you support religion allowing the causing of harm to people without their consent.

You are not a discriminatory person.

Hence you do not discriminate between religions.

Hence you support all religions equally in legal rights.

Hence you support my religion being allowed to force harm on people against their will.

My religion says I must rape fit girls.

Hence you support my right to rape fit girls.



If you aren't going to dispute either one of those logical steps or one of the premises, then do not reply.

 

[Teh_Ephy]

NB for mods: I don't have access to Mediev's tower, nor would I want to post something like this in there; that group is full of big heads and people whose ego is the same size as their waist--and that's huge. If you'd like to close the thread because 'it gets too serious', then contact me first and at least give me a good reason... Unless you're brad, in which case you're awesome and can go ahead. Luv u brad <33

Excuse me, but I happen to be rather underweight. My ego is at least five times the size of my waist, and I shall not have my perfection so severely underreported.

 

[TheDivineBoss]

Excuse me, but I happen to be rather underweight. My ego is at least five times the size of my waist, and I shall not have my perfection so severely underreported.

I didn't knew you had boobies.

 

[Gilles]

I'll reply soon Griffin, I'm busy right now unfortunately. I'd like to continue this discussion.

 

[bounty hunter2]

You've got the choice not to attend the concert

He's terminally ill, he's going to die one way or another. I'd rather die before the stage where I can't control my own actions, personally, though.

But what about thousands of people who went on the concert? Bought the tickets months ago? And this guy shows up and dyes? There will be teenagers for sure, not a realy nice scene at all.

 

[brad.dude03]

Moved this back to OT. Dunno why it was put in SE, as it certainly does not belong there.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Moved this back to OT. Dunno why it was put in SE, as it certainly does not belong there.

Because it belongs in Medivh's Tower, regardless of the fact Ash thinks it's full of stuck-up people or not. That he doesn't want it moved to the proper forum because he can't post in it is why it was marked as a 'special' thread. It doesn't matter who makes a topic, only what the topic is about and how it is presented drives where it belongs. You should know that much.

Moved back. Start a riot if you honestly want to, but you know damned well this is an inflammatory topic (read the first few pages, duh) and that it should by all rights be locked. That it isn't in the proper forum, and is as a result inflammatory because people can't keep their pants on, and that Ash is going to write some lame essay retort to my post here, just shows how fractured the infrastructure of this site's moderation really is.

Please, don't fight me on this one. I am at least letting the thread persist to exist at all.

 

[brad.dude03]

Oh, how March draws closer.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

What happens in March?

 

[Teh_Ephy]

That he doesn't want it moved to the proper forum because he can't post in it is why it was marked as a 'special' thread.

I myself have had several serious (and maybe one "inflammatory") discussions outside of MT while MT existed. My understanding of MT was that nothing had to be posted there; it was, however, generally a safehouse for anything that was.

I didn't knew you had boobies.

If anybody had boobs five times the size of their waist, the boobs would have more momentum than the rest of their body.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Anyways, I'd like to make the movement that I've probably overstepped my bounds. I am not a moderator, Brad is, so I will move it back to OT now. My apologies.