3 Pages of Pending Spells

[Almia]

4 Spell Mods and still a 3 page of pending resource.

Come on.

 

[Chaosy]

4 Spell Mods and still a 3 page of pending resource.

Come on.

all of the spells not pending because of lack of moderation. Iceman has been rather active since he joined too, that should be said.

 

[Almia]

all of the spells not pending because of lack of moderation. Iceman has been rather active since he joined too, that should be said.

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/spells.php?status=p

 

[Kazeon]

2 pages of pending spells is considered as normal, as Ralle said. So I guess 3 is still okay.

 

[Almia]

Not it was 2 years ago.

 

[Orcnet]

4 Spell Mods and still a 3 page of pending resource.

Come on.

IcemanBo is doing his best to spend time to moderate spells so give him some slack, the other spell mods might be MIA but I believe in time the spells will be cleaned from pending.

The map section had problems like this every time, with worth while effort and time to help, we manage to trim a lot of the pending.

 

[Almia]

Ok. thanks for the explanation.

 

[Ralle]

It's tough work.

 

[Gilles]

4 Spell Mods and still a 3 page of pending resource.

Come on.

Do you spend time going over and reviewing all of the resources? If so, then great.

If not, how about trying to help them rather than this. It's a lot of work they do, and I hate when people complain about it. Especially the way you just did. It's a lot of fucking work to be a resource mod, and they really don't get much credit.

 

[Deathcom3s]

Do you spend time going over and reviewing all of the resources? If so, then great.

If not, how about trying to help them rather than this. It's a lot of work they do, and I hate when people complain about it. Especially the way you just did. It's a lot of fucking work to be a resource mod, and they really don't get much credit.

This. QFT.

 

[Kazeon]

Help what? Giving review? That's not helping dude. Spell mods are used to re-review them all. They don't believe to users.
(whereas my reviews are alwayz better :>)

EDIT:
I'm siding to Almia here. Mods should know what they are doing, don't be lazy. They don't get much credits indeed. But if they hate it, they should quit. Users' complaints are the result of their laziness. If users are complaining, don't response to it harshly, but try to improve instead. Professional workers should know about this already.

 

[Gilles]

Help what? Giving review? That's not helping dude. Spell mods are used to re-review them all. They don't believe to users.

The mods know the users that are prevalent in their fields, seeing a review by someone who knows their shit can help. Obviously you have to check it yourself, but having users reviewing is helpful.

I'm siding to Almia here. Mods should know what they are doing, don't be lazy.

This is what bothers me. Yes, mods get bored and their activity slows and eventually they die out. Lazy though? No. It's a lot of fucking work and it is draining. Very very draining. In fact people are only commended when they work really really hard and spend insane amounts of time doing stuff on this site, and they burn out. There are very very few that have had high activity over large periods of time. In fact DSG is one of the few that I can think of. Others burn out, get banned, or get demoted. The banning/demoting, to me, is a result of burning out. Purple, Ash, Rui, Py, and many more.

Don't give me this lazy bullshit. If you have issue with the activity of a mod, take it up privately with admin.

They don't get much credits indeed. But if they hate it, they should quit. Users' complaints are the result of their laziness. If users are complaining, don't response to it harshly, but try to improve instead. Professional workers should know about this already.

They aren't professionals. That's the issue. This is something they do in their SPARE TIME. And a lot of them (probably all) are students or hold full-time jobs. This site should not be a priority in people's lives. Even mods.

 

[Kazeon]

Some users wont update their resource until a mod set the status to needs fix. Feels like they want mods to validate those users' reviews first (something like "check the review above"), or disregard it completely. Again, users' reviews are not trusted there.

 

[Deathcom3s]

Complaints like this usually boil down to 2 things:

1. Impatience.
2. Lack of understanding regarding the amount of work that goes into resource moderation.

Plain and simple. They're impatient because they don't understand, and they don't understand because they're too impatient to learn.

 

[Chaosy]

This is something they do in their SPARE TIME.

While this is true, a review doesn't take THAT much time. I remember Magtheridon96 claiming somewhere that he could review a spell of either jass or gui in 5 mins when he was a spell/jass mod.

edit: Original post: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/site-discussion-97/lack-mods-252417/index2.html#post2530827

Let me put this into perspective.

If we're talking about code ONLY, it takes me only up to 5 minutes to completely review some typically sized GUI spell. In GUI code, you just have to look for the presence of magic numbers and values, lack of configurables, re-initialized hashtables, memory leaks (locations, groups, special effects, forces), leaked dummy units, inefficient iteration, inefficient Unique-ID generation and management (allocation/deallocation of instances), and certain less-preferable actions that cause memory leaks like (Pick every unit of type) and (Smart Camera Pan). There's not so much you have to look for. It's just a few passes over the code.

For JASS, it would take a bit more than that because there are many more common mistakes and errors to look for like local agents or handles that aren't nulled, BJs, magic numbers, structs with reducible boilerplate, redundant function call repetition, unused variables, the use of actions instead of conditions, inefficient unit group iteration, badly named variables and functions (be it, they don't follow convention or they are just terribly inexpressive of the author's intent), Get/SetUnitPosition and Get/SetUnitState where Get/SetUnitX/Y and Get/SetWidgetLife would suffice, the use of locations for anything other than TerrainZ value queries, the use of GetSpellTargetLoc when GetSpellTargetX/Y would be better, the use of terrain deformations in general, memory leaks such as undestroyed special effects or unreleased timers, the use of bad libraries, the use of scopes when a library is obviously superior, the lack of an API when an API seems important for the users of a resource, the use of the wrong initialization methods for the given circumstances, &c...

This may look like a lot, but really, if you can make 1-2 passes through code in search of problems like these, you can finish at a rate of 150 lines of code per minute which would yield about 3 minutes for 1 pass for some typical JASS spell. With bigger code, obviously, you're going to have to focus a lot more on what you're reading. Consider Tank-Commander for example. He once a wrote a vanilla JASS spell that had lines so long, it took me 3 days to review it because I kept getting distracted. It's hard sometimes, especially with super long udg_ variable names.

Now let's discard the idea of an ideal reviewing environment.

Sometimes, it takes me a combined 10 minutes to completely review the code of 2 resources and have a review written out for each. Other times, it will take me 10 hours because I'd start a review in the morning, leave half-way through and get distracted by stuff like Hive Chat, 9gag, Facebook or Whatsapp, then I'd come back later and realize I started something I didn't finish.

It's only in these ideal conditions where a moderator doesn't get distracted that he can finish reviewing 20-30 spells in a day effortlessly. Some factors include the length of the spell. If a spell is pretty long, the moderator is going to leave the page in search of smaller spells to review just to finish the easy part of his job. There was once a system so large, no one reviewed it for over a year. It just stayed there in the Pending Spells section and rotted. I tried reviewing it 3 times, I really did, but it was just too enormous. I'd say it easily surpassed 5000 lines of code.

SO YEAH.

 

[Vinz]

omg that 2.8k lines

 

[chobibo]

I don't think the mods are lazy, it's just that it's really hard to review someone else's work, specially when you don't have any motivation.

 

[Chaosy]

when you don't have any motivation.

I have to approve of this, haha.

 

[Vinz]

Me too. D:

 

[Maker]

Users can help moderators by giving feedback. For example in spells, you can go through the triggers and post improvement suggestions and see if you can find bugs. The submission will be fixed and improved by a lot before a moderator checks it, thus reducing the moderator's workload.

Personally I don't have the time or motivation like I had before. I started as a spell mod in 2011, it is a long time and a huge-ass pile of reviews. (~1000?)

For me reviewing a spell takes anything from 15-45 minutes. About 90% of spells do not get approved right away. Not too many get approved after the second review. Most get approved after the third round. Getting a spell approved can require upto three hours of my time. Usually about an hour on average. Users PM me asking questions about the review and also ask if I can help them fix it or iron out some nasty bug. Nowadays I mostly direct them to T&S or WEHZ.

With full time job and trying to work at least one weekend extra each month doesn't leave much spare time. I'm also training my ass off for world championships which are held in two months. And I bought a house, moving next month.

Last year was especially demanding due to excessive amounts of work. I worked 50 days extra in addition to the normal 40 hours a week, only had a week of vacation. I'm sorry for not doing many reviews and the queue of pending spells got way too long.

I've thought of quitting moderating and Hive altogether. But I still like doing it, sometimes.

 

[LordDz]

While this is true, a review doesn't take THAT much time. I remember Magtheridon96 claiming somewhere that he could review a spell of either jass or gui in 5 mins when he was a spell/jass mod.

edit: Original post: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/site-discussion-97/lack-mods-252417/index2.html#post2530827

You also have to take the downloading-movingmapintocorrectfolder-openingmap-loadingmap-checkingmap-checking triggers, checking ingame, writing a review that takes a bit more time.

 

[T. D. W.]

tbh, I side half with Almia, half because, usually, like in normal conditions, FOUR mods can clear all those spells quite fast
YET
When mods don't prioritize hive above most real life duty, which is totally normal, as maker said, they will not have much time to work on moderating all those lines
Another thing, since we're in January, basically, NOT SUMMER, people tend to have a lot less time to spare for hive

Lastly, personal experience on GUI spells, those seriously take no time to moderate, problem comes with jass (if someone had to remoderate my KB3D system now, I swear it would take him MORE THAN A WEEK, knowing that he is not 24/7 moderating it)

inb4, I'm Jad

 

[Almia]

@Jad

Let Nestharus review it,then you'll cry

 

[T. D. W.]

In my defense, I was pointing out how much time it needs, not the result
Basically because update after update after the first review by PnF, it became like a bunch of functions scattered here and there, If I was not the creator of this, I would give up on reading the code before being halfway through

 

[chobibo]

Are you implying that your resource should be graveyarded?

 

[T. D. W.]

What the hell no xD
I'm implying that It became a lot harder to read and understand than it was when it was first moderated

 

[edo494]

and thats exactly why it should not be 5/5, but we all know my opinion on your KB system

 

[chobibo]

It also has bugs atm right?

 

[Orcnet]

How about if we could just get along and help one another? if someone knows that a spell resource is approve-worthy, tell the spell moderator enough proof for it to be accepted by means of proper review/criticism and reasoning why it must be approved. Sending it to the moderator's profile is faster, and easier.

If someone can review a spell for like 5 seconds, then sure why not, then how about if someone can review all 2 or more pages of pending for like 5 seconds?

You're gonna be Superman of the Internet.

So yeah it would be nice if were helping each other out than pointing out how quick we can be on some certain field.

 

[T. D. W.]

@edo, idk, it's not like it has a DC or something
@chobi, it' snot buggy, just that some functions are scattered a it in the script

And orcnet has the key, I remember back in my time that when there is a pending spell, a bunch of people come to review it, which really helps, idk if it's still the case now, but don't count on me, exams on next week

 

[Kazeon]

Hehe, I'm sorry before. I wasn't really siding to Almia actually. Just want some debate

I truly understand how hard is it to review spells. Personally, I spent 30 - 60 minute(s) to review one spell/system (depending on its size) to produce a covers-everything-review and excellent solutions. But now I feel that users are generally lazy to update their resources after seeing wall of texts in the review.

How about if we could just get along and help one another? if someone knows that a spell resource is approve-worthy, tell the spell moderator enough proof for it to be accepted by means of proper review/criticism and reasoning why it must be approved. Sending it to the moderator's profile is faster, and easier.

I'm afraid that's not going to work.

 

[Vinz]

But now I feel that users are generally lazy to update their resources after seeing wall of texts in the review.

When I see such wall of text I have to update it. I shouidn't lose motivation because I made it anyway, it would be a shame to leave it half in the air.

However that is the user's problem. If he doesn't follow conventions, his spell will most likely get Needs Fix'd.

I'm afraid that's not going to work.

Unless there are rewards.

 

[sonofjay]

I'm afraid that's not going to work.

It works for the map section so what is the reason why it will not work for the spell section? It basically just having someone who have enough knowledge in the field reviewing stuff and reporting to the mod that this and that are approvable/rejectable.

 

[Kazeon]

Unless there are rewards.

No, you don't understand the case. I saw some spells were acceptable enough but were approved 2 months later. Like this (this one hasn't been moderated though). Sometimes moderators forgot that they just need to spot major flaws to put a resource into needs fix status, else they are approve-able, it can ease their jobs a lot. Someone's resource at BPower's level (example) is very easy to review, because you will rarely meet major flaws within them, that means acceptable. You are totally free to mention minor improvements but remember, that's not enough to put something into needs fix in any case, rule is rule, making your own standard shows inconsistency.

It works for the map section so what is the reason why it will not work for the spell section? It basically just having someone who have enough knowledge in the field reviewing stuff and reporting to the mod that this and that are approvable/rejectable.

I did so with PurgeandFire. But ended up with he re-reviews all of those spells, my reviews are not trusted. ;-;

 

[chobibo]

You are totally free to mention minor improvements but remember, that's not enough to put something into needs fix in any case, rule is rule, making your own standard shows inconsistency.

Please cite an example of what you think is 'minor improvements'. I'm assuming you're referring to mod's suggested variable naming but I might be mistaken.

I did so with PurgeandFire. But ended up with he re-reviews all of those spells, my reviews are not trusted. ;-;

Purge re-reviewing the resource doesn't imply his distrust on you, he's just doing what he's supposed to do(which is to review the spell's script). Also, I think he has to do it, since he's going to be responsible for approving the said resource. If any user files a complaint(s) about the approval, he will be the one answering to it.

As orcnet mentioned, your reviews are appreciated and considered, so don't worry.

 

[Kazeon]

Please cite an example of what you think is 'minor improvements'. I'm assuming you're referring to mod's suggested variable naming but I might be mistaken.

No, I'm agree (now) that variable naming is important since it's mentioned in the spell rules. I meant anything other than every point mentioned in the spell rule is considered as minor improvements, they are not required to be done/fixed. Sometimes mods forgot about this.

Purge re-reviewing the resource doesn't imply his distrust on you, he's just doing what he's supposed to do(which is to review the spell's script). Also, I think he has to do it, since he's going to be responsible for approving the said resource. If any user files a complaint(s) about the approval, he will be the one answering to it.

As orcnet mentioned, your reviews are appreciated and considered, so don't worry.

So that means my review doesn't help mods at all. Yeah, I know he appreciate me, but I didn't help him to save his times in reviewing, I didn't make the moderating process become any faster. That's my point here. We are helpless as user.

And not all user want to update their resources based on user review, they are waiting for moderation. I have reviewed quite a bunch of spells so far, and that is what I feel.

 

[chobibo]

So that means my review doesn't help mods at all.

I don't think it doesn't help. As I've said, it's their responsibility to review the submitted spell's code so they review it and post their reviews. People can't hold you responsible if Purge decides to approve a resource with only your review as basis. Also, I don't think Purge ignored your points, I think he considered it when he was composing his own written review, and that in itself helps speed the reviewing process up.

Anyway, you're making it sound as if it were a life and death situation were the mods should act as swift ☆☆☆ as possible.

 

[IcemanBo]

It's just not possible to approve a submission only based on a someone else's review. It's the mod's job to ensure that it works flawless.

Any user can note critical flaws depending the concept itself (usefulness), performance, config part, or others like description, screenshot, etc... that may lead to rejection.

Almost always the uploader will have some time to make changes, before a mod will make some action.

When a mod comes he can take user's critique as reference for his further statement.
Of course it's still needed to be checked, if the critique correct, and if the submission has been updated or not. But here, the mod checks the existence of a flaw/bug, instead of searching for it on himself.

If there are still enough major flaws in the submission, the mod can refer to user's feedback and just add the one or other point he wants to mention by himself.

It does definitly help if there is some feedback given by other users and it can boost he whole process a lot.

 

[eubz]

Help what? Giving review? That's not helping dude. Spell mods are used to re-review them all. They don't believe to users.
(whereas my reviews are alwayz better :>)

EDIT:
I'm siding to Almia here. Mods should know what they are doing, don't be lazy. They don't get much credits indeed. But if they hate it, they should quit. Users' complaints are the result of their laziness. If users are complaining, don't response to it harshly, but try to improve instead. Professional workers should know about this already.

That's not laziness dude. That's because these mods are humans and they have their life outside the internet to spend to. Be patient with the submission, it's not the end of the world, yet.