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(1) Project Y4: A Total Conversion

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by Rao Dao Zao, Sep 18, 2010.

  1. Rao Dao Zao

    Rao Dao Zao

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    No.

    No, that is not what I meant. I meant I bounce ideas off people. Like introducing Gausslander to the concept of a keypad and him telling me to do it with units instead of the command card kludge I was thinking about.

    I have on occasion asked people for their direct input about features. When considering what abilities to give to the AP-AM (beyond the EMP bolt and the artillery cannons), for example, both NEHZ and Metal_Sonic heeded the call of the blog and gave me Overdrive.

    However, this is relatively rare, because I already have a pretty comprehensive idea of what I want Y4 to do.

    In other news, I have been doing a feasibility study on a full-screen computer system. Aside from having the letters come out on their sides, the initial trials have demonstrated that it is completely possible to achieve.:ogre_hurrhurr:
     

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    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  2. Callahan

    Callahan

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    Is there a pilot inside AP-AM cockpit or is it entirely robotized with remote control?
    And do you still need idea for death penalty?I have some.
     
  3. Section

    Section

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    hm... i think let him built his own system and wait until done...
     
  4. Callahan

    Callahan

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    In his blog he was asking for death penalty ideas.
     
  5. Rao Dao Zao

    Rao Dao Zao

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    There is an arbitrary human pilot inside the AP-AM, aye. He smack talks back to Operations Central every so often, and he also talks to trapped civilians.

    Initially I explored the concept of him being the silent protagonist you can project yourself onto, but that style just doesn't feel right for me (at least in this situation). I fully intend to never name him, however, and he will be referred to only by his rank (which is current Sergeant). It used to be a code number, but that was a little too distant.:ogre_hurrhurr:

    If you have something, I'm interested. Right now, it's a lives system, pure and simple -- lose them all, the game ends (barring the defend-the-processing-core objective, which ends the game on its destruction. Some other objectives may be similar). I currently also have a system of fines lined up; if you kill yourself, then you lose 500 credits for misuse of company property. Normal death just loses a life.

    So you're a little late to the party, but as this was pretty much the default option I'm still open to suggestion.
     
  6. Callahan

    Callahan

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    I have several ideas.

    Death need to be dissuasive to discourage the player from dying as much as possible and challenge himself.
    Lives system don't make death dissuasive as long as you have them.If you have no life then death doesn't even become an option.
    Game over completely exclude death from the gameplay and contrain the player to save often breaking the immersion.

    I thought about when you die the pilot emergency eject himself from the cockpit and must go back to respawn area by foot.The pilot is invulnerable because he's too small to be considered a threat by enemies.

    Or The player get control of a tow truck and must recover his wrecked AP-AM back to the respawn area.

    Or the combination of both : pilot eject from cockpit, go back to respawn by foot to take the tow truck to finaly recover your AP-AM and with a small fee because renting the tow truck and repairing the mech cost money it's about consistency.
    Death become an active mini mission where respawning is your quest .
    It may be fun the few first time but will rapidly get repetitive and boring doing all these round trip making death dissuasive enought without breaking the immersion.
     
  7. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    Callahan's idea sounds awesome, except this whole "the pilot is too small to be considered a thread" thing sounds like bullshit to me. :p Maybe instead he had some kind of an eject pod(some flying contraption, maybe a tiny hoverplane or even a flying, stylized eject seat). That way you could just say the enemy droids don't have anti-air capabilities.
     
  8. Rao Dao Zao

    Rao Dao Zao

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    See, I'm of the opinion that without the prospect of an absolute end to the line, then there isn't any meaning to success. There simply must be some method by which the player can lose the game, even if it's hidden behind a buffer layers of lives and respawning.

    "Loss" is characterised by management giving the facility up for gone after your repeated failures, and just nuking it back to the Ming Dynasty.

    Staying alive does provide Unreal Tournament-style sprees, which I will eventually translate into end-game score and possibly other bonuses, so there will be incentives to stay alive alongside disincentives to getting killed.

    Death becoming an active mini-mission is quite a nice idea; the AP-AM already leaves behind solid wreckage (leaving everything that was in your cargo hold with it; you only get to keep what was on the mech itself, so if you want the items from your hold you'll have to go and get them), so it wouldn't be hard to implement something more.

    However, the thing here is that it just pushes the original problem elsewhere. If the pilot is invulnerable, there is no challenge here and this segment is completely meaningless; the player will just get frustrated and reload a game before they died anyway (or worse, quit completely). The movement speed of a normal human against the mechs would also have to be punishing to make it believable.

    Then if there are infinite tow-trucks and they respawn (or the truck is also invulnerable), again there is absolutely no prospect of an ultimate defeat; the struggle once again becomes meaningless.

    So I'm not convinced. I'm intrigued, but not convinced.
     
  9. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    The good old scores and killstreaks from This Wreckage, awesome! I'm really excited for this game. :)
     
  10. Callahan

    Callahan

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    That's the point.It would explain death and respawn realisticaly but the task itself is meaningless and boring.The tow truck will still have reasonable speed to not frustrate the player to the point of reloading or quiting.

    Ultimate defeat is the point of view of the game.From player point of view you will respawn at the out-game checkpoint that is your saved game file.I like the idea of having to use save function only when you're done playing kind of like Torchlight or Diablo and not as a tool to counter game over or an abuse to respawn in a boss fight where he's 50% done.

    But we might just have different opinion on the subject.After all I don't know how often it is likely to die in the game.This suggestion might work if you die rarely.You're the maker so you know better.
     
  11. Rao Dao Zao

    Rao Dao Zao

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    I suppose at the end of the day, I have to strike a balance between explaining things meaningfully and making the game work. I think adding a segment like this would upset that balance too much; it's easier to suspend disbelief (the "lol respawners on a battlefield" of UT3, for example) than to grind through seemingly unnecessary extras.

    Unfortunately with Warcraft, it's an impossible dream to mess with saving; since I'm never going to game-cache the entire map and all that happens in it, the fact that saving exists is going to have to be lived with. The hit point/damage dealt ratio is pretty tight and the numbers are low, so raw fights should be fast enough that using a full-map save/load isn't really going to help you in a tight spot. The hit points of bosses will reset on death, too, so you really will have to beat them full on.

    Death is currently relatively frequent, but I'm still balancing how may lives you start with/can obtain against how difficult the enemies are. I want it to be a bit of an achievement to last until 128-odd kills without dying, but not something impossible only the most pro-gamers get to. Like Unreal Tournament, really. Getting to Godlike should make you feel good because it's a bit tough, but it shouldn't be impossibly tough like pro-gaming.

    Maybe we do have differing opinions, but it's good to talk it out. I want Y4 to be something special and cohesive, not just a thoughtless heap of arbitrary features.
     
  12. WherewolfTherewolf

    WherewolfTherewolf

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    There is an anti-save system here on THW so it is possible to force saving at certain points
     
  13. Gausslander

    Gausslander

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    Will this map use melee time of day?
     
  14. Rao Dao Zao

    Rao Dao Zao

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    Blog 434 is all about the tutorial mini-mission and the rationale behind adding it. I also discuss the full-screen computer and keypad stuff a bit.

    I know how to force anti-save, King Klear did it in Zombie Island. The problem is that it's a collossal kludge -- it's ugly, it's annoying, it's everything I just don't want to do here. As I have said before, I don't like engine fighting.

    You can push the game, yes, but it has limits. I like to think I have a good instinct for where to push and where to work with what's there.

    Yes and no. Time passes and the light model rotates so it does get brighter and darker, though the light environment has been altered to give it that reddish tinge during the "day" and a very dark grey at night.

    However, I have stretched the day so the cycle is a lot slower than in WC3, and the fact of day/night has no effect on anything. I have also smeared the clock out of the interface (though you can still see the time if you mouse-over the area).
     
  15. Tleno

    Tleno

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    You can change the day/night light enviroment? Didn't knew that, and I suppose you can get some pretty awesome results with that...
     
  16. Rao Dao Zao

    Rao Dao Zao

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    Code (Text):
    call SetDayNightModels( unitlighting, terrainlighting)
    I used it in This Wreckage to get absolute darkness. I won't be playing with point-lights this time, though, just using the lighting to make the map a lot darker.

    And that's darker as in "the lack of light in space", not darker as in "grimdark".:ogre_hurrhurr:
     
  17. Tleno

    Tleno

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    Well yeah, you don't have to be genious to figure out why is it so dark...
     
  18. Miss_Foxy

    Miss_Foxy

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    Will you be able to exit your vehicle?
     
  19. Rao Dao Zao

    Rao Dao Zao

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    No. As discussed previously, there just isn't a place for infantry fights. The universe of RDZ Industries is a universe of moderately large robots.
     
  20. Tleno

    Tleno

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    So we won't get to squish people with our robot too?