1.32.0.6 BETA NOTES

[Power107]

Spoiler

It doesn't matter how we can explain it, or how the scenarists describe it. Ner'Zhul using his last percent of energy left to empower his savior, Arthas in better shape because he's not far from the Frozen Throne, or Illidan being Illidan (narcissist, arrogant, know-it-all, and dramaqueen/anti-hero) and he got outmached because he tripped on the snow or whatever. Arthas was meant to be a big villain. Who cares if Illidan transformed, used fel laser beams, summoned fel fire to melt the whole Northrend. The guy who eats demonic energy for breakfast and received his invitation to the club of fel energy lovers by Sargeras himself, lost to a young human with a big sword.
This fight outcome never reflected the power of the fighters. Might as well illustrate that fight with good scenes and animations. And taking a break mid-fight to drop your weapons and going commando to continue the fight looks cool. So yes, it's only a prophetic storytelling thing, because before WoW, the main narration in Warcraft was more important than the individual credibility of few scenes. And the narration needed Arthas to win this fight, and Illidan to engage it so he could fail it, so both could gain some dramatic-fallen-hero fames.

And of course Razorclaw_X, Illidan's power should not be proportionate with his age. Because as you said, he spent the majority of his life in a tiny cell. But before being imprisoned he had quite a lot of fighting experiences. Way way more than Arthas. I'm not an Illidan fanboy, I don't like the character. But power-wise, of course he should outmatch pre-Lich King Arthas.
He was already a really good warrior before he met the Burning Legion. Arthas' fighting experience was about smashing ghouls and murdering villagers.

Spoiler

Why are you using WoW retcons like Sargeras giving powers to Illidan in this context? The Wc3 Manual does not mention anything like that. I just read the manual to confirm that.
The only reason you think Illidan should have won is that you know the WoW lore instead of original RTS lore. It's all Blizzard's fault, not mine or yours.

 

[deepstrasz]

Why are you using WoW retcons like Sargeras giving powers to Illidan in this context?

Not sure why we are still under spoilers though but fact is Reforged is a WoWified Warcraft III.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Oh for hell sake with spoilers! Guys! its annoying to click on those all time

 

[deepstrasz]

Oh for hell sake with spoilers! Guys! its annoying to click on those all time

Make some finger muscles, you lazy bone.

 

[Power107]

...Reforged is a WoWified Warcraft III.

You da Aristotle/Plato of 2020?
Edit: cz Plato uses words like "appness" to describe the form of apples etc

 

[MasterHaosis]

Make some finger muscles, you lazy bone.

Be man and talk like everyone else! No hiding behind spoilers! This is for spoiled children! For weaklings!

 

[deepstrasz]

You da Aristotle/Plato of 2020?

Can't be, that would make me too important.

For weaklings!

For weak demons who can't lift a finger.

 

[MasterHaosis]

For weak demons who can't lift a finger.

I did not know that you are weak demon who can't lift finger!
I was telling you to become powerful like me.... (I cannot see myself in reforged still)

@MasterBlaster what do you do with Beta? Uninstall before installing official Reforged or what?

 

[MasterBlaster]

@MasterBlaster what do you do with Beta? Uninstall before installing official Reforged or what?

Yes, I've uninstalled the beta before downloading Reforged.

By the way - only 2 GBs to go

--- EDIT: Downloaded. Only 1 minute after my initial math estimations ---

--- EDIT 2: I'm in and I can confirm - the Blizzcon 2018 cutscenes were indeed scrapped. Completely. ---

 

[verstefyren]

So I started the prologue campaign. went to options to fix things at the gameplay tab. When I pinned mu mouse over the "game speed" bar, I was sent straight to score screen.

Edit: Started campaign again and tried to repeat the bug without success. It works now.

 

[MasterBlaster]

A very worrying thing - there's no "custom campaign" option anywhere.

 

[Antinous]

Why are you using WoW retcons like Sargeras giving powers to Illidan in this context? The Wc3 Manual does not mention anything like that. I just read the manual to confirm that.
The only reason you think Illidan should have won is that you know the WoW lore instead of original RTS lore. It's all Blizzard's fault, not mine or yours.

The fact that it wasn't mentionned doesn't mean a new information provided to us after is a retcon. That's not what a retcon is. The trilogy of the War Of The Ancients doesn't retcon Warcraft 3. And the gift from Sargeras to Illidan is described in this trilogy.
But if you want to keep only the informations given by the campaigns, then Illidan is still OP. The guy not only know where to find an ancient demonic artefact in the middle of nowhere, after absorbing another demonic artefact, but he knows how to use it to shatter a continent.
WoW actually made him less powerful, not more. Because he was a boss raid. Then he became OP again, so he could solo a Naaru with one attack.
Characters' powers are consistent throughout War3 campaigns.

 

[Razorclaw_X]

A very worrying thing - there's no "custom campaign" option anywhere.

I can't wait to hear the excuse for this one.

Speaking of Custom Campaign fails, the editor absolutely fails to read any campaign-level changes being made in the editor.

 

[Power107]

The trilogy of the War Of The Ancients doesn't retcon Warcraft 3...

Then how can Tyrande not recognise the orcs if she has seen Broxigar?

 

[MasterBlaster]

I can't open the third chapter of the Prologue Campaign - it insta-kicks me while loading and shows a defeat screen, lol.

As for my initial impressions... Well, they have improved the terrain a bit (I think), there are some new animations (like units moving slowly or talking) and camera angles, but overall the cutscenes are the same as they always were. Overal... well, a disappointment so far.

Some screenshots:

 

[Power107]

Why they have not improved the trees? The terrain is still similar to beta despite all our feedback. Disappointed...

 

[verstefyren]

I succesfully loaded the third prologue campaign. I didn't know they had voice actors on these ones (Riders on the storm)

 

[Vinz]

Hello folks - new thread is up:
WARCRAFT III: REFORGED PATCH NOTES

 

[MasterBlaster]

Another thing - for some reason dying humans make extremely silly new sounds, much worse than the original ones... They sound like someone took a headphone microphone and told a bunch of random people to squeek I don't know what the person who chose to implement this was smoking, but damn it must have been nasty.

Also, Headhunter still doesn't have a portrait animations.
And I'm still pissed about custom campaigns being removed.

More screenshots:



---

Also, I was wondering why the heck the campaign feels so easy and... uhm, I clicked on the Footman and he has 378 hit points. Weren't the Footmen supposed to have 420 hit points orsomething? It kinda looks like someone decided that they need to do a 10% handicap even for Normal difficulty.

/Facepalm.

 

[Drake53]

Also, I was wondering why the heck the campaign feels so easy and... uhm, I clicked on the Footman and he has 378 hit points. Weren't the Footmen supposed to have 420 hit points orsomething? It kinda looks like someone decided that they need to do a 10% handicap even for Normal difficulty.

HP is not the only handicap, this is from Blizzard.j:

Hidden

constant real      bj_HANDICAP_EASY                 = 60.00
constant real      bj_HANDICAP_NORMAL               = 90.00
constant real      bj_HANDICAPDAMAGE_EASY           = 50.00
constant real      bj_HANDICAPDAMAGE_NORMAL         = 90.00
constant real      bj_HANDICAPREVIVE_NOTHARD        = 50.00

 

[MasterBlaster]

HP is not the only handicap, this is from Blizzard.j:

Hidden

constant real      bj_HANDICAP_EASY                 = 60.00
constant real      bj_HANDICAP_NORMAL               = 90.00
constant real      bj_HANDICAPDAMAGE_EASY           = 50.00
constant real      bj_HANDICAPDAMAGE_NORMAL         = 90.00
constant real      bj_HANDICAPREVIVE_NOTHARD        = 50.00

This is just ridiculous...

Anyway, finished mission three. I've pretty much said all that I have to say. I'll summarize my thoughts and post more screenshots later.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Yes, I've uninstalled the beta before downloading Reforged.

I am still stuck at classic mode, I cannot enabled Reforged.

 

[Ardenaso]

Spoiler

Those aren't retcons. Those are just battle details. A retcon is something that changes the story. A retcon here would be if Illidan didn't die, for example.

I heard they were supposed to show Vashj and Kael rescuing Illidan in Classic but time constraints/restraints

lemme go find a citation

 

[deepstrasz]

I can't wait to hear the excuse for this one.

Speaking of Custom Campaign fails, the editor absolutely fails to read any campaign-level changes being made in the editor.

If this is indeed true, a trend of SCII, I will not support ActiBlizz anymore. This indeed would be the last straw.

Then how can Tyrande not recognise the orcs if she has seen Broxigar?

Let's just leave it as an alternate reality for those WoW/Warcraft fans that enjoy plot holes.

 

[Antinous]

Then how can Tyrande not recognise the orcs if she has seen Broxigar?

Let's just leave it as an alternate reality for those WoW/Warcraft fans that enjoy plot holes.

That's why Tyrande call the greenskinned ones "orcs" when she's introduced in the campaign. She just guessed their names correctly, that's how we know she could not recognise them, right ?

 

[deepstrasz]

That's why Tyrande call the greenskinned ones "orcs" when she's introduced in the campaign. She just guessed their names correctly, that's how we know she could not recognise them, right ?

Uh-huh...
video
(that after hearing what they are called as they were talking between them; called green skins some lines before)

 

[Antinous]

Shandris calls them greenskins. Tyrande summons an owl and spy humans calling the greenskins "orcs". Then Tyrande calls them "orcs". Tyrande didn't call them greenskins.
So either she indeed didn't recognise them, and call them "orcs" only because she can hear what the magical own hear, or she call them "orcs" because she already met one before, and it doesn't matter if she can hear or not what the magical owl hear.
But, where's the evidence that Tyrande didn't recognise them ? It's not even implied that it's the first time she sees orcs.

 

[deepstrasz]

Shandris calls them greenskins. Tyrande summons an owl and spy humans calling the greenskins "orcs". Then Tyrande calls them "orcs". Tyrande didn't call them greenskins.

Tyrande calls them "these orcs" first time because she has overheard the humans speaking with them and addressing them as orcs.

 

[Antinous]

because she has overheard the humans speaking with them and addressing them as orcs.

Because ?
So it's impossible that she already knew that name before, ok.
And « these orcs » like these orcs who are in Kalimdor, or "these guys apparently named orcs" ?

 

[deepstrasz]

So it's impossible that she already knew that name before, ok.

I didn't take that as the ultimate truth.

And « these orcs » like these orcs who are in Kalimdor, or "these guys apparently named orcs" ?

To me it seems like "these, orcs" as in so that's what those green skins are called. I don't see the nelves calling the humans pale skins or anything other than humans.

 

[Antinous]

Shandris called them greenskins, not Tyrande. The fact that Shandris and some other night elves never saw an orc before is not the issue here.

It's a possibility that they originally didn't think Tyrande could have met an orc before, but since it's not said in the campaign, Tyrande meeting Broxigar in the War Of The Ancients is not a retcon. Providing (and imagining) new informations afterwards, if it doesn't contradict previous informations, is not a retcon.

 

[deepstrasz]

It's a possibility that they originally didn't think Tyrande could have met an orc before, but since it's not said in the campaign, Tyrande meeting Broxigar in the War Of The Ancients is not a retcon.

No but it's a huge stretch. As in, if it wasn't said it's true. It's not an argument.
Not reminiscing anything about orcs is quite the proof I need because Broxigar was depicted as a honourable orc who helped the night elves. Not saying one word of something even related to that show exactly that Broxigar wasn't even supposed to be in the game or original story as further documented by the RoC manual.

 

[Antinous]

I was defending the fact that it's not a retcon.
If you want to discuss if it's a "stretch" or not, that's another topic.
But your argument is a bit weird. It's not relevant for the campaigns that night elves met one orc before. The fact that they knew one heroic orc doesn't mean they'll trust orcs they don't know and who are hostile to them. So why would they give us this information in the manual or in the game ? The War of the Ancients in the manual is only described with few paragraphs. I don't think we should assume they didn't write anything more about it though. They just gave us what was important to introduce all that new lore after War2.

 

[Power107]

I was defending the fact that it's not a retcon.
If you want to discuss if it's a "stretch" or not, that's another topic.
But your argument is a bit weird. It's not relevant for the campaigns that night elves met one orc before. The fact that they knew one heroic orc doesn't mean they'll trust orcs they don't know and who are hostile to them. So why would they give us this information in the manual or in the game ? The War of the Ancients in the manual is only described with few paragraphs. I don't think we should assume they didn't write anything more about it though. They just gave us what was important to introduce all that new lore after War2.

When Tyrande was told about evil "greenskins" she should have talked about Broxigar if she had a relationship with him in the past.
Update post:
The novel also shows that she helped Broxigar to escape when the elves caught him.

 

[deepstrasz]

The fact that they knew one heroic orc doesn't mean they'll trust orcs they don't know and who are hostile to them.

Obviously did not imply that. The idea was: "I remember an honourable orc that fought against the night elves against the demons. Look what they've become now." Something along those lines.

Update post:
The novel also shows that she helped Broxigar to escape when the elves caught him.

That's not an update. It's a doublepost.

 

[Antinous]

But they are evil greenskins. They came in Kalimdor, cut trees, killed bunch of night elves, and Cenarius. But she « should » have talked about that awesome orc from 10k years ago so the player would have known that night elves met an orc before ?
She could have, that's for sure, for the sake of #noamalgam
« Shandris, do you remember this Broxigar ? Even Cenarius and my somnambulist lover forged a divine axe to this orc. He fought valiantly the Burning Legion
- Priestress, I think you're going off-topic
- You are my protegée, so listen to me Shandris. Don't call them greenskins, it's rude and offensive. These orcs killed the same demigod that liked and honored Broxigar, so what ? They still deserve respect because of what Broxigar did to us. »
- Tyrande, I think now is not the time for a bedtime story. They're murderers and they're destroying our lands. »

 

[deepstrasz]

But they are evil greenskins. They came in Kalimdor, cut trees, killed bunch of night elves, and Cenarius. But she « should » have talked about that awesome orc from 10k years ago so the player would have known that night elves met an orc before ?

Yes. It's all immersion and stuff otherwise it's an actual retcon when it was publicized in 2004, the first book in the series I mean.

 

[Power107]

@deepstrasz Sorry, I now fixed that. I will avoid this in the future.
@Antinous When she sent the scout owl to the orcs' base she should have noticed how these greenskins looks like Broxgar.

 

[deepstrasz]

@Antinous When she sent the scout owl to the orcs' base she should have noticed how these greenskins looks like Broxgar.

Technically, she knew the orcs were on Kalimdor already since the orc campaign is before the nelven one.
But not even Cenarius said anything about Broxigar.

 

[Antinous]

But they are evil greenskins. They came in Kalimdor, cut trees, killed bunch of night elves, and Cenarius. But she « should » have talked about that awesome orc from 10k years ago so the player would have known that night elves met an orc before ?
She could have, that's for sure, for the sake of #noamalgam
« Shandris, do you remember this Broxigar ? Even Cenarius and my somnambulist lover forged a divine axe to this orc. He fought valiantly the Burning Legion
- Priestress, I think you're going off-topic
- You are my protegée, so listen to me Shandris. Don't call them greenskins, it's rude and offensive. These orcs killed the same demigod that liked and honored Broxigar, so what ? They still deserve respect because of what Broxigar did to us. »
- Tyrande, I think now is not the time for a bedtime story. They're murderers and they're destroying our lands. »

(edited my post)
Same thing about Cenarius. « Sir Hellscream, sit and listen this story about this orc that I knew. Broxigar was his name. A good guy, you should act more like him. »

They could have done something like that. Should have ? Not necessarily. It doesn't change the informations from the campaigns, so it's not a retcon.

 

[Power107]

(edited my post)
Same thing about Cenarius. « Sir Hellscream, sit and listen this story about this orc that I knew. Broxigar was his name. A good guy, you should act more like him. »

They could have done something like that. Should have ? Not necessarily. It doesn't change the informations from the campaigns, so it's not a retcon.

The problem is why they are not able to recognise orcs? Thats the issue. Cenarius, the guy who made the axe for Broxigar is also not able to recognise the orcs. That is illogical...

 

[deepstrasz]

They could have done something like that. Should have ? Not necessarily. It doesn't change the informations from the campaigns, so it's not a retcon.

Straw man arguments.

 

[Antinous]

I'm not copy/pasting my arguments on that one. We can't say they didn't recognise them.
Your only hint is Shandris calling them "greenskins" (how does that prove she doesn't know they're called orcs, or that night elves never met an orc before the events of War3 ?) and Tyrande not correcting Shandris right after.
If you want to see that as a retcon, then you have your own meaning of what a retcon is.
Oh, and Medivh was not a Guardian of Tirisfal (this isn't even a thing anyway). That's not in the manual. Therefore, it's a retcon. He had tons of opportunities to talk about that, like explaining who he is to King Terenas so Terenas may have listened to him.

Straw man arguments.

Sorry, I thought you said it was a retcon because it's not mentionned in the dialogs while this information could have brought some immersion.

 

[Power107]

I'm not copy/pasting my arguments on that one. We can't say they didn't recognise them.
Your only hint is Shandris calling them "greenskins" (how does that prove she doesn't know they're called orcs, or that night elves never met an orc before the events of War3 ?) and Tyrande not correcting Shandris right after.
If you want to see that as a retcon, then you have your own meaning of what a retcon is.
Oh, and Medivh was not a Guardian of Tirisfal (this isn't even a thing anyway). That's not in the manual. Therefore, it's a retcon. He had tons of opportunities to talk about that, like explaining who he is to King Terenas so Terenas may have listened to him.

That Medivh bit is indeed a retcon as in Warcraft 1 he was just a warlock. But I still don't get why even after looking at the orcs with eyes the nelfs did not talk about Broxigar. They should have asked orcs: Is anyone of you related to Broxigar?

 

[deepstrasz]

Your only hint is Shandris calling them "greenskins" (how does that prove she doesn't know they're called orcs, or that night elves never met an orc before the events of War3 ?) and Tyrande not correcting Shandris right after.

All night elves, especially the important WotA characters blatantly ignored the orcs.

Oh, and Medivh was not a Guardian of Tirisfal (this isn't even a thing anyway). That's not in the manual. Therefore, it's a retcon. He had tons of opportunities to talk about that, like explaining who he is to King Terenas so Terenas may have listened to him.

It's stated in the Warcraft II manual and Medivh briefly mentions it in RoC.
Your "argument" is invalid. There is information about these things in the games whether directly or in their manuals. There is no Broxigar in either the games or manuals.

 

[MasterHaosis]

And people still complain on blizzard forums. Many refunded.
What a fiasco!

 

[Antinous]

The War2 manual who says Aegwynn was the last Guardian right, not Medivh ? While Medivh in War3 just says he's the last Guardian (but nothing about the Order of Tirisfal).
But Broxigar, the guy is a hero... of a 10k years old event. The fact that he existed doesn't change a think about War3 events. All the details on how the Burning Legion was defeated are not relevant, especially if it can't help the story of the campaign. Every character whose name or existence wasn't mentioned somewhere didn't exist then ? If you think so, why focusing on Broxigar ? We barely had any details on the War of the Ancients back then, so every detail in this trilogy is a retcon ? I really don't understand where you draw the line. Or do you focus on Broxigar because from your point of view he should have been mentioned somewhere, just... because you think it's illogical he's not mentioned ? Please, just show me where it's said that the night elves new saw orcs before.

But I see, for you it would be relevant to ask murderers about their genealogy. Just in case they might be related to someone who died 10k years ago. He was just one guy. The night elves face armies of orcs who destroy their lands immediatly after arriving in Kalimdor. You think they could not tell these orcs had nothing to do with Broxigar ?

 

[deepstrasz]

The War2 manual who says Aegwynn was the last Guardian right, not Medivh ? While Medivh in War3 just says he's the last Guardian (but nothing about the Order of Tirisfal).

Her powers were passed to Medivh as mentioned in the Warcraft II manual.

The fact that he existed doesn't change a think about War3 events. All the details on how the Burning Legion was defeated are not relevant, especially if it can't help the story of the campaign.

Neither did many characters mentioned in the RoC manual, like Rhonin did anything for the WcIII story but they were still there but guess what, again, no super known hero Broxigar.
You think what you want.

 

[Antinous]

Alright, then it's a retcon. A retcon who doesn't contradict anything (remember, you still couldn't prove NE never met an orc before), but it's a trend to change the meaning of a word so you can use it just when you feel like it anyway.

Neither did many characters mentioned in the RoC manual, like Rhonin did anything for the WcIII story but they were still there but guess what, again, no super known hero Broxigar.
You think what you want.

RIP Xavius.

 

[deepstrasz]

Alright, then it's a retcon. A retcon who doesn't contradict anything (remember, you still couldn't prove NE never met an orc before), but it's a trend to change the meaning of a word so you can use it when you like anyway.

If it suits you, call it inconsistency.