TOS explanation and myths

[Drake53]

Wasn't this your comment regarding my argument that is very unlikely you ignore the EULA in court?

Your comment which I replied to was not in the context of court.
Of course if you ever need to go to court, you'd be stupid to ignore/not read the EULA, but before that, like I said, nobody reads that stuff.

I don't know the purpose of your comment then other than nitpick things, using Wikipedia, for the sake of it and failing doing so on a constructive way.

I'm not nitpicking, if there's a part of your post I don't reply to, I either agree with you or I cba to argue about it.

So to make things more clear you are saying that because reasons, reclaiming IP rights to a custom map of wc3 has nothing to do with wc3 software and its EULA as "thats how it works" as a wc3 map could be separated from WC3 and its editor on a technical or logical level that i still can't buy in. Well, this is my problem then. But keep in mind that i try to give more concrete examples on every of my substantiations but you still didn't gave me a concrete case, a concrete example of how you can use such 3d party tools (which one, how, what it does) in a way that it doesn't "touch" the editor or touch WC3 at all, which was my entire point.

Drake53/War3Net
stijnherfst/HiveWE

Since you asked for a concrete example: I write the map script in C#, my library handles all the proprietary file formats that I need, and if I want a nice terrain (my maps usually don't but still) I can use HiveWE. This is what I mean by not 'touching' the world editor. I literally never need to run it. Microsoft visual studio is the only thing I need.

How you can create a case on which a judge will say: this guy that created the map X clearly doesn't know the EULA, thus didn't accepted it, so such contract is not binding for him.

You're still thinking in terms of using the world editor to create maps. Even if I am fully aware of the EULA and agreed to it, that doesn't stop me from doing whatever I want using my own toolset.

Maybe you are affected about the topic of the ownership of files (not formats) and in which case you should see my post above. I didn't implied, at all, that Blizzard owns the map file in your computer. My theory is that they don't even own IP rights just by virtue of the EULA (the thing you are all fearing and repeating everytime).

The EULA doesn't affect me at all, I'm merely trying to reason why it doesn't affect me. Which is third party tools.

somehow i had to speak with you about reverse engineering file formats.

You kinda brought up this topic yourself though.

 

[Paillan]

The real flow is like this, but regarding the specific IP field, the most important here, of Copyright

1. You created something worthy of Copyright (substantially more unlikely than you think).
Copyright ownership exception? Yes/No (see your copyright law about ownership and exceptions, 99% of possibility that the exceptions doesn't apply here).
a.1) No; general rule applies: owner of copyrights is the material author (modder).
a.1.2. Has Blizzard enforced his contractual right to materialize an assingment/license over your rights? (this include bullying you into saying that they are the owners) Yes/No
a.1.2.1. Yes; you must materialize the act as it is a contractual obligation born by accepting the contract, can you actually do it? Yes/No
a............1. Yes (you haven't either renounced your rights or assigned/exclusive licensed to another person); contact a lawyer so to proceed to negotiate the assignment. You should get paid for that. Blizzard could even offer you to work for them as employee. In it this exact last case (work relation) then maybe an exception to ownership will apply in the end as i noted on point a.
a............2. No (you did the above); contact a lawyer but because you could/will get sued and/or bullied.
a.1.2.2. No; proceed to continue mapping if you want. Or else. In the meantime, Blizzard might use your IP or not. If you get too cocky or combative ("that IP is mine bro"), maybe they do as in point a.1.2.
a.2) Yes; exception applies (low chance for that to happen, i would say 0%, but see please see your law): ownership of copyrights is Blizzard's by virtue of accepting the contract, unless voided the point "1.Ownership" of the Custom Game Acceptable Use Policty in court . Contact a lawyer if you want to do it so.
2. You don't (very likely), maybe one day you will get to point 1 (see above).



Don't discuss the aspect of the enforceability of the EULA. It is enforceable unless you challenge it in court and knowing what you are doing. This really has nothing plausible regarding the acceptation of the EULA/Policy. If you claim ownership over a map made with the Editor, then you get the notice of all the legal contracts on the installation of the program itself. Which is to say, if you made a map, you used the Editor, and if you used the Editor then you know what are the rules.

Well, as you said, in 99% of the cases people won't be creating something that is truly copyright worth... so this whole thread was mostly to make sure people kept modding by keeping them informed that this will most likely fly past them (probably didn't work anyway cause reforged is terrible beyond TOS, but what can you do)

 

[disruptive_]

Since you asked for a concrete example: I write the map script in C#, my library handles all the proprietary file formats that I need, and if I want a nice terrain (my maps usually don't but still) I can use HiveWE. This is what I mean by not 'touching' the world editor. I literally never need to run it. Microsoft visual studio is the only thing I need.


You're still thinking in terms of using the world editor to create maps. Even if I am fully aware of the EULA and agreed to it, that doesn't stop me from doing whatever I want using my own toolset.


The EULA doesn't affect me at all, I'm merely trying to reason why it doesn't affect me. Which is third party tools.


You kinda brought up this topic yourself though.

All the thing i post assume realistic outcomes or atleast things that are plausible, which is the only thing i care about.

Now you are giving concrete examples which was the thing i thought you would present at first.
Are you aware that your case is not generalized in the practice of modding? It is still interesting nontheless as you are cautious in truly not even touching the world editor. You bring about the topic if a Custom Game is such only if it is produced with the World Editor software or not. Note that the using ie. JassNewGen you still get noticed about the legal rights of Blizzard.
The EULA says this "Custom Games includes all content created using the Game Editor(s)" somewhat in your favor.
But the following is not in your favor or in favor of HiveWE author: "Derivative Works: Copy or reproduce (except as provided in Section 1.B.), translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on or related to the Platform". Blizzard doesn't even need to expressely prohibit derivative works or mention the World Editor, since by law he is the unique person that can do such works over each of its creations. The World Editor is software and is protected as code and potentially as audiovisual results, and we don't recieve a derivative works license with the EULA. HiveWE is arguably a derivative work of World Editor (discutible). Note that HiveWE is on an entire different level from, let's say, simple modding tools that the World Editor has nothing to do about as a product (ie. model converters, model editors). HiveWE is a game editor, World Editor is also a game editor. Note that Blizzard will most likely don't do anything to the HiveWE author unless he does something blatantly douchy. One thing kind of douchy would be not putting the advertisement of rights of Blizzard when executing such program. The JassNewGen author (Vexorian) didn't do that as i said before and the NewGen program was arguably another derivative work of the World Editor.
So the legal tradeoff is not being binded by the EULA but you put yourself and HiveWE author on potential copyright infringenment cases, should you/HiveWE author atempt to assert rights on your creations (which is the practical aspect of all this), and you atleast as a third party of the contract. This is kind of worse since copyright system has more remedies and more aspects that can significate more lose of money should you lose the case.
Regarding custom game creation ("modding"), if Blizzard sues you and the plaint says "contractual breach" you could atempt presenting your "i'm not binded" case or atleast try it as in your case the EULA is not clear. Much stronger arguments point to the nature of the EULA as adhesion contract, a contract that we didn't have opportunity negotiate, and that contains clauses that nobody on good faith would draft or that are otherwise abusive or pernicious to users like even implying a free assignment of IP rights, which i say could hardly occurs the facto or by pure virtue of accepting the EULA.
Prohibiting by contract things like reverse engineering and making "works (programs) related to the platform", things that are allowed by copyright, should Blizzard asserts copyright claims using that same EULA precisely as antecedent (that we know prohibits RE) is a possible good case of copyright misuse.

May i ask you how you test your maps though?



EDIT: Just to not double post.
Paillan, the analysis above should be done to every possible kind of copyrightable content, not just the custom game in its entirety. This applies to model meshes, skins, code, icons, literary aspects, etc. All these things are arguably copyrightable content and on some is very easy to notice if they are original (or not) in respect of any kind of Blizzard assets and content.
I would say it is still possible to find even complete maps that are completely original from the WC3 games or other Blizzard Games. Sure if you make a campaign that actually says "Arthas v/s Uther" and you use them models, etc, your game has very few copyrightable aspects. This is also the case of lots of assets here that are around the Hive (ie. a model with an original mesh but that uses WC3 skins, a icon altough different is based on prexisting Blizzard icon). But i saw some maps that show off impressive originality, using custom icons, models, UI, literary aspects, with gameplay that has nothing to do with WC3, etc. Then you have code. Note that the programming language of Jass is not copyrightable in itself should anyone had that doubt.

 

[Drake53]

You bring about the topic if a Custom Game is such only if it is produced with the World Editor software or not. Note that the using ie. JassNewGen you still get noticed about the legal rights of Blizzard.
The EULA says this "Custom Games includes all content created using the Game Editor(s)" somewhat in your favor.

I have already made a post about this topic two months ago: Dont make mods, boycott Reforged [EULA Update]
Still wondering what a real lawyer would have to say about it.

But the following is not in your favor or in favor of HiveWE author: "Derivative Works: Copy or reproduce (except as provided in Section 1.B.), translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on or related to the Platform".

HiveWE was made from scratch, so by definition it is not a derivative work.

So the legal tradeoff is not being binded by the EULA but you put yourself and HiveWE author on potential copyright infringenment cases

Not sure how you made the jump to copyright here. I also find it hard arguing too much about the legal part of all this, when it obviously depends on what country you live in, and my beloved wikipedia doesn't have english pages for most of the stuff that is specific to my country.

May i ask you how you test your maps though?

Anything that doesn't touch the warcraft API (common.j) I can potentially write unit tests for and test within visual studio, otherwise I test same as everyone else, by running the game.

 

[disruptive_]

Copyright law is armonized internationally, so you can even know very the basics and really a lot just by consulting any WIPO documents. Maybe Wikipedia has some of those or a good 10 minute read entry about copyright which might be more of your palate.

Did HiveWE author used reverse engineering tho? If you reverse engineer the editor and use the information obtained to do, let's say a word processor (or nothing at all), then copyright law doesn't give a fuck. If you reverse engineer the editor and you make a "product" similar to a copyrighted work , then you... then you know what that means. It could mean copyright infringenment possibly. Here you are not doing a derivative work but a copy. If you somehow prove that is not a copy or that the copy was minimum or other bullshit, the case would turn into unjust competition case, should the author decides to monetize and create competition. But he should be aware of that. Are you noting that all of this is because you are trying to create the fact/fiction that you didn't read or accept the EULA, which doesn't even do what you think it does? I'm not even joking about possible copyright case or an unjust competition case (this last one not really IP related). If you decide to play alone, without the contract and beign a true rogue, then all these IP suits becom tempting (what about a trademark suit because of using the term "HiveWE" and "World Editor 0.6"). Still, you got the very same Blizzard v/s MDY case as an example of a dude playing alone with its 3d tool (a bot of WoW), not fearing Blizzard and even challenging them, and atleast winning regarding the copyright aspect. But he still losed on the tort law side.
Know also that protection of software products by copyright is not just code or the program aspect. A "software" like the World Editor has the code/program aspect, but it also has assets, UI skins, icons, etc. It also entrails a particular screen display that is protected as a separated work but i only now U.S. cases about that (as early as 1982 and onward, mostly regarding videogames), so maybe your system doesn't care too much about such things.
Is HiveWE purged from such aspects? Can it be reasonably purged from every Blizzard aspect at all without becoming a completely different thing, like a game engine itself that will not even work for wc3 maps? I'm just nitpicking here, but i opened it and it has ie. the terrain skins of Wc3. Even though the program is 3d party it uses those skins as bare minimum, otherwise it will turn unto a proper game engine separated from Wc3. All these things, even not that important, make the perfect excuse to still enforce something against the author. And here it will not be the EULA but copyright rights which are far worse.
But i guess you are right on the fact that users of such program are kind of sheltered and i highly doubt anything will happen even to the author, unless something blatantly detrimental happens. But this conclusion also applies to people that decide to play with the EULA.

 

[loktar]

Most third party tools acquire game data (like skins, models etc) from the game itself (MPQ/CASC) and don't redistribute anything. I've never used HiveWE but I'm pretty it's the same there. So no copyright infringement in that regard, as the user needs to have their own copy of the game.

 

[disruptive_]

HiveWE says that it doesn't need a Warcraft III installation. But it either needs the files to be acquired by the user somehow or actually have them as assets on the program itself. On that first case, i hope you know that such act is still copy of data but in contrast of people that have acquired the game legally or even just having it installed, that often have the legal right to reproduce that data for the sole purpose of executing the program (essential step), people that just have them on their computer by other means would not apply to such defense.

 

[Paillan]

First, sorry for necro posting, I felt like an update to this thread was needed (feel free to delete this post if you consider that it breaks site rules)

It's been almost 2 years since this thread was created, a lot of water has passed under the bridge, and our lives changed substantialy during that time (not relevant for the topic however)
As such a decided to revise this thread and make some final comments.
For starters, I tried my best to fix the language of the original post, clear out some spelling mistakes and other gramatical errors, swap some words and in general, make the original post more clear while keeping the inteded meaning.
As for the evolution of the original topic itself, I am happy to inform that, as of writing this post, I've never been approached by a hive user asking for legal support due to blizzard sueing them, nor have I heard even rumours about such actions being taken.
Many of the more big projects have gone full independent game (see element TD) with blizzard not being able to do much, and even warmash, despite the supposed threats (I was never able to confirm their existance) is progressing without issues.
There also hasn't been any discussion of blizzard stealing map ideas/concept for new IPs (not that they have the creativity to even make new games) and between blizzard being in the state that is (probably going to be bought, unless the FTC says otherwise) and the game being pretty much neglected by devs, I consider that my initial predictions of this new TOS not really having much real meaning have indeed come to pass.
I can even confirm that this has been the case because 2 years later, nobody is talking about the TOS anymore and it has faded from the public discussion, both in this forum as well as other warcraft 3 modding sites. We have all moved on.
I would also like to ask for this thread to be locked, as I consider that this topic is no longer worth discussing and that this update on the situation finally closes this pretty sour chapter for the modding scene.
Kudos
Paillan

 

[Retera]

supposed threats (I was never able to confirm their existance)

I can confirm for you that the Warsmash takedown request did not exist, if that helps. As author of Warsmash, I did not make the reddit post(s) that popularized the claim that Warsmash was being taken down. I only make a joke about it on my YouTube channel that contains several other satirical works and other silly things, and I failed to note that my video was satirical. I deleted my video that triggered people to worry within 48 hours because the analytics said that it had 80% or more traffic coming from reddit from people who did not actually watch the source material of my video but just jumped to the picture of a fake C&D in the video to get their confirmation bias, then stopped watching the video because they're not interested in me specifically as a creator. That video had more video views than any positive or creative works celebrating or discussing the actual technology of Warsmash prior to that time.

Edit: As a note, during and after those 48 hours I made myself scarce and began to wonder if it was time for a new chapter of my life where I ignored Warcraft 3 because the PTR of Patch 1.33 and its ilk made me realize the future would be increasingly grim. But I didnt disappear and after a week or two felt kind of obligated to tell people: any talk of a Warsmash takedown is fake. It never happened. And I've encountered multiple people who say basically that my story doesn't matter, and what I'm saying doesn't matter and the reality is that I hurt them and lied to them very badly. There's not really anything I can do to make that situation any better, and they are probably right that I should have realized people wanted a reason to hate more than they wanted anything I ever did in my modding career, and I should have had the foresight to see it and should have expected that and thus am I completely to blame. Seems not worth it for me to argue about it, as I cannot picture a way to make it better. Recently I commented on Bellular's video about Warsmash takedown saying the takedown never happened and the comment was deleted almost instantly.
So, hate me if you wish. That is the power of freedom.