Blizzard OWNS your maps

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TOS:

“User Content” means any communications, images, sounds, and all the material and information that you upload or transmit through a Game client or the Service, or that other users upload or transmit, including without limitation any chat text. You hereby grant Blizzard a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, paid-up, non-exclusive, license, including the right to sublicense to third parties, and right to reproduce, fix, adapt, modify, translate, reformat, create derivative works from, manufacture, introduce into circulation, publish, distribute, sell, license, sublicense, transfer, rent, lease, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, or provide access to electronically, broadcast, communicate to the public by telecommunication, display, perform, enter into computer memory, and use and practice such User Content as well as all modified and derivative works thereof. To the extent permitted by applicable laws, you hereby waive any moral rights you may have in any User Content.” – Battle.net Terms of Service

Its kind of depressing. Create the next DotA? Blizzard will run their own tournaments of it and change what ever they want. Its all about the $$$
 
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I don't get it.. I think this is a good thing, and legally right.....I would rather a company make money from a product they made, than what you guys would call an "icefrog" making thousands off something they don't legally own :/

I have always known of this, even since wc3, its wrong to make money off a GAME you only pay to play, not have the license or right to use commercially...

If you want to use blizzards content for commercial gain, appeal for a license or something?

And besides, last I recall with sc2, they do allow you to sell maps but at a commissioned price (they get some of it), but they also still have the rights to it being providers for both tools and advertising etc.
 
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Also, unless I'm mistaken, there is something exactly like that in the Terms of Service for Warcraft 3, so its not like this is something thats exclusive to Starcraft 2. In fact I believe a lot of games have similar statements in their Terms of Service, so this is definatly not something that is exlusive to Blizzard or Starcraft 2.
 

Triceron

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That's a general Terms of Service that simply allows companies to protect their IP. This kind of find print appears for many kind of services. If you have a free email account, a free website host of any sort or use social networks like facebook, you'll see the same kind of ToS. This means whatever you post on these places is property of the respected company. It's nothing new or shocking, and it doesn't mean these companies will act on it at will. It's simply a statement so they have full control over material that could be potentially harmful or be used against someone.

It's an extreme example, but think if someone made a controversial 'kill the jews' map and Blizzard had no way of taking it off Bnet because they don't own the map. That would be a horrible mess.
 

Dr Super Good

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Even WoW has the same agreement, and I believe D2 as well, thus why it is technically illegal to sell characters on them for money.

Its to cover them incase of their servers being shut down in the distant future and or data loss occurs as well as to stop people making easy busninesses (they still make them but they are harder).
 
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so? that doesn't change anything.

and regarding "icefrog" - I don't care what a man would money from - least I care if it is officially legit. Legal things are just... papers... nowadays they are even less than that - they are pixels...
 
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This is the wc3 editor licence agreement:

2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including, but not limited to, any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. The Program is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties, and conventions and other laws. All rights are reserved. The Program contains certain licensed materials, and Blizzard's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

The new licence (just copied from Legacyspy):
“User Content” means any communications, images, sounds, and all the material and information that you upload or transmit through a Game client or the Service, or that other users upload or transmit, including without limitation any chat text. You hereby grant Blizzard a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, paid-up, non-exclusive, license, including the right to sublicense to third parties, and right to reproduce, fix, adapt, modify, translate, reformat, create derivative works from, manufacture, introduce into circulation, publish, distribute, sell, license, sublicense, transfer, rent, lease, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, or provide access to electronically, broadcast, communicate to the public by telecommunication, display, perform, enter into computer memory, and use and practice such User Content as well as all modified and derivative works thereof. To the extent permitted by applicable laws, you hereby waive any moral rights you may have in any User Content.” – Battle.net Terms of Service

Basically, the old terms ensured Blizzard's ownership over stuff that they created (e.g. the editor itself, the models and sounds, the warcraft story) and the new ensures (total) ownership over.. everything.

Doesnt seem the same to me. Hell, I didnt know what to not bold in the new agreement. Yes it is true that it's the new "fashion" of licence agreements but it doesnt even legaly stand (maybe not even in US). If Blizzard desides to get your popular map (whose intelectuel property is definetly yours, if the story, plot, etc are all made by you) and make money from it, there is nothing you can do other than send them on court and hope (which the average person wont even imagine to do to a multimillion company). Also this type of licence agreement is what makes the map selling system feesible.

Well, this is the "dark side" someone might tell. But, there are certain "positive" sides of that agreement, like increased security and control over the product which leads on a better protection against abusers, hackers and all the bad stuff that might ruin your day, control over offensive material (I wont give the much more positive stuff that the company ensures cause it doesnt actually affects us, the customers).

One thing is certain. THIS is NOT the same thing.

edit: About Icefrog. How could he even get money from a map made for wc3? Enlighten me. He doesnt earn money for what he does. Do you (the rest of the mapmakers)? The old licence agreement makes possible for him to make a stand-alone dota game (that has nothing to remind wc3 -> see HoN) and make money from it (a thing he actually does at this time, working for Valve). Which is totaly fine (since he created the gameplay, lore, items, etc). If the map was made under sc2, Blizzard could sue Valve, claiming IP rights over dota.. And bla,bla,bla. This sh*t already happens :/
 

Dr Super Good

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Thats cause the WC3's WE did not even support importing of files orrignally (RoC) as that was only added in TFT. Thus by default everything in the map was already owned by blizzard. However now everything is not owned by blizzard due to being able to import new models and stuff added in TFT so under some law they could have major legal issues or have people use their service in a bad way. Thus the new liscence covers that.
 
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Thats cause the WC3's WE did not even support importing of files orrignally (RoC) as that was only added in TFT. Thus by default everything in the map was already owned by blizzard. However now everything is not owned by blizzard due to being able to import new models and stuff added in TFT so under some law they could have major legal issues or have people use their service in a bad way. Thus the new liscence covers that.

Hmm. For your first arguement I can say that they could change the TFT's editor licence agreement (the major changes could justify such a change).
For the second arguement, I think you can ensure the protection from modding the program (hacking) and the intoduction of offensive material in it without assaulting users IP, in a way much like done in public forums (posting offensive material will deny your access to the service whether it's a forum or a game). It can be done legaly (I think).

Like I said this is a new some kind of "fashion" reguarding terms of agreement, which Blizzard just isnt absent. Many companies (not only software related) use it, with unknown yet consiquences. Nothing major happend yet, but it's bound to happen some day (not neccesarilly by Blizzard ofc). The Movie and Music companies are yet on top of the "corruption" list (they are also the most "hammered" ones by piracy though).
 
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edit: About Icefrog. How could he even get money from a map made for wc3? Enlighten me. He doesnt earn money for what he does. Do you (the rest of the mapmakers)? The old licence agreement makes possible for him to make a stand-alone dota game (that has nothing to remind wc3 -> see HoN) and make money from it (a thing he actually does at this time, working for Valve). Which is totaly fine (since he created the gameplay, lore, items, etc). If the map was made under sc2, Blizzard could sue Valve, claiming IP rights over dota.. And bla,bla,bla. This sh*t already happens :/


Exactly my point. The new ToS is most certainly not the same as wc3.

As for how Icefrog could get money, he could get revenue through sites like playdota.com, but he claims he doesn't make any profit himself and that the ad revenue just supports the site.

Additionally, if Icefrog made DotA for SC2 he is NOT allowed to run any major tournaments, without Blizzards consent, I.E they want a cut of any profits from it.


Write an original story for a game you create in SC2? If you then decide to make your own indie game based off that story, blizzard can sue you as they own the story you created.

Write some original music and use it as a sound track for your map? You can't sell that music, blizzard owns it. Blizzard can then take that soundtrack, use it the next SC2 game and not pay you a penny.

Here's something else of interest. Blizzard had said that if a maps become popular enough, they will sell it on Bnet. Kind of like an Iphone App. The create would get a cut of the profits. However, if you don't want your map to be sold, for example you think people should be able to play it for free. There is nothing you can do. You can refuse the profits, but you can't stop them from selling it. If you start uploading other versions of the map to BNet, blizzard can delete them then stop you from uploading maps. Hell its in their rights to sue if you propagate free versions of a map you created.
 
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Although they can do it doesnt mean that they will. It's deep waters there. They might risk attending a court and losing a trial, cause like I said this license is not exactly "legal" but it's enought to get you into deep waters. Also such an act is kinda bad marketing.
 
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actually, Blizz could just do "By accepting these terms you accept to transfer all your money and physicall possessions to Blizzard Entertainment."

99.(9)% people do not read the terms anyway...

**run to check if my house is still my own**
 
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It's really sad but Blizzard is definitely not the company they used to be. Old Blizzard was concerned intensely with the product and the community because they understood that those were the two factors that could keep them selling copies of their games for years after its release. I'm not sure what changed to make Blizzard what it is now (my bet is on either the Activision merger or WoW) but they are more concerned with eating up as much cash from the community as they can rather than creating a lasting product.
 
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Just skim-read most of this pointlessness.

Quote by Legacyspy:
"Write an original story for a game you create in SC2? If you then decide to make your own indie game based off that story, blizzard can sue you as they own the story you created."

They could sue you. But do you really think a company as large and commercially successful as Blizzard are going to sue a customer for creating a custom map?

There is a reason it is called 'small-print'... No one bothers to read it, and for good reason. The Law is so convoluted and (in my opinion) flawed, that it requires these written guidelines, to cover their asses from the start.

There is another thing you completely forget to mention (I use 'you' in the sense of people arguing about this concept of ToS), is battle.net 2.0 allows you to 'publish' your own maps. This in itself covers you. They own SC2, the engine the graphics the editor etc... You own what you do with that... So is it not only fair that if you do make the next big thing, that the people who enabled you to do so, get a cut?

Anyways, this thread is mostly laughable. I jumped in a bit and got carried away. So just read what PurplePoot said on the previous page :)


Edit: I got Ninja'd by KaboomMaster. So let me reply to you as well... I am sick of people going on about the Old Blizzard / New Blizzard routine. 1. Blizzard are a company. 2. Blizzard could spend years and years perfecting Starcraft 2 for us. But, then another company will realise there has not been a major RTS game released in the past x months/years and do so. Therefore, Blizzard lose sales. 3. Companies sounds similar to Competition. 4. Profit.
 
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Edit: I got Ninja'd by KaboomMaster. So let me reply to you as well... I am sick of people going on about the Old Blizzard / New Blizzard routine. 1. Blizzard are a company. 2. Blizzard could spend years and years perfecting Starcraft 2 for us.

Where did I ever say Blizzard wasn't a company? I never said either that I want Blizzard to wait 10 years to keep "improving" (who the hell knows what they're really doing) Starcraft 2. As far as arguing about Blizzards priorities goes, their priorities have changed. PERIOD! This isn't a delusional remark by dozens of people, it is a simple observation.

1.) Lack of chat channels and clans while including facebook and headset support.

There is no reason not to include chat channels in Starcraft, not only are they relatively simple to add but they also allow for large groups of people to chat and discuss things in a way private groups can't.

As for the lack of clans, that can be attributed to Blizzard's new ass-backwards tournament structure which tries to personalize multiplayer. Not only does ladder require 20 placement matches just to start playing, but the compartmentalized rankings also make it nearly impossible to get an exact skill estimate of you, your friends, or your opponents.

Facebook support is just a cheap way to impress stock holders while making an attempt to have SC2 look like a competitive Facebook app to anyone who wouldn't otherwise play it (in other words $60 Farmville to impress hipster tend obsessed morons), not to mention Facebook support is redundant with friends lists and group chat already in place.

Microphone support has some merits but since its executed poorly (I can talk to people in my group but not in my game) and a large majority of competitive players with headsets already using another program (skype, ventrillo, ect.) it's not entirely necessary when the time could have been used elsewhere.

2. Lack of LAN

I'm not even going to argue hows stupid this is besides being just another attempt by a major publisher (Activision) at trying to created DRM that harms its own costumers. Also anyone who mentions that this stops piracy knows absolutely nothing about digital piracy at all.

3. Lack of that Blizzard touch

Now I will admit that this argument is very relative but a lot of things in SC2 feel completely half-assed. Unit speech is a very good example of the old Blizzard/new Blizzard argument. I half to say that my first disappointing moment in SC2 was when I realized that there was no really attempt at humor in SC2's unit speech, humor which has been present in every previous Blizzard game.

4. Custom games and the Editor

For a company who constantly like to remind everyone how much they love their mapmaker community, they sure fail at showing it. How does a word filter, a limit of 5 published maps, and the inability to host our map with a descriptive name tell us all "thank you?" I understand that there are always those who abuse the privilege of battle.net to make troll/porn/racist maps but you'd think Blizzard would have a nice shield with the brick of EULA text and the matu.. Oh wait this game is rated T for "Totally acceptable to 13 year olds who are mature enough to not be massive dicks on the internet while playing a violent military game with drugs." I'm starting to see a social double standard between marketable and acceptable when a 13 year old can buy a violent game but a history class of high school seniors can't watch Saving Private Ryan because it's to gory and has swearing.

But, then another company will realise there has not been a major RTS game released in the past x months/years and do so. Therefore, Blizzard lose sales. 3. Companies sounds similar to Competition. 4. Profit.

Are you trying to say that no RTS have been produced since WC3? There have actually been quite a few RTS which I have purchased between WC3 and SC2, none of which have a user base even remotely close to WC3's or even the older Blizzard RTS back in the day. Need a list Dawn of War, Dawn of War's three expansions, Dawn of War 2, Majesty 2, and Supreme Commander, and those are only the ones that I bought.
 
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J
You own what you do with that...
.

Except the point is, you don't own what you do with sc2, blizzard owns it. They've gone as far to say anything you say in text chat they own. They are trying to leave no loop holes.

And say some one does create the next big thing, what if they don't want any money from it? Its not up to them, blizzard owns so they can sell it if they want.

"They could sue you. But do you really think a company as large and commercially successful as Blizzard are going to sue a customer for creating a custom map?"

You misunderstand me, what I am saying is you create an original intellectual prop
erty, as in, an RPG featuring your own characters and storyline. Then you go and create your own game from scratch. If it is successful, blizzard is in their right to demand a cut, since the story and characters (which you created) are owned by blizzard.
 
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As for how Icefrog could get money, he could get revenue through sites like playdota.com, but he claims he doesn't make any profit himself and that the ad revenue just supports the site.

Getdota.com does not have ads, and neither does playdota.com--those are the only two sites that Icefrog is affiliated with.

Anyway. Welcome to life; companies change. The only Blizzard you need to be worried about is the Blizzard that exists right at this moment.

And the EULA/TOSes... honestly, nobody gives a crap. They're just legalities that probably won't have any effects unless a lawsuit comes up.
 
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Exactly my point. The new ToS is most certainly not the same as wc3.

This isn't Warcraft III. There are major technical and functionality differences between StarCraft II and Warcraft III. As such, you can expect a different TOS.

As for how Icefrog could get money, he could get revenue through sites like playdota.com, but he claims he doesn't make any profit himself and that the ad revenue just supports the site.

People really need to stop posting incorrect information. I don't know if you fabricated that yourself or not, but it's inaccurate. IceFrog is only affiliated with getdota.com and playdota.com, and there are no ads on either of the sites. Any other DotA sites IceFrog is not affiliated with—as such, he does not make any profit from said sites.

Please, be aware of what you post and make sure to check the accuracy of it. The last thing we need is more misinformation spreading.
 
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And say some one does create the next big thing, what if they don't want any money from it? Its not up to them, blizzard owns so they can sell it if they want.
You know, I've seen people who hate Blizzard, but claiming that they are going to steal your map and try to make money off of it based on a legality in their ToS seems a bit over the top.
Then you go and create your own game from scratch. If it is successful, blizzard is in their right to demand a cut, since the story and characters (which you created) are owned by blizzard.
No, they actually can't. The legality only applies to things created with Blizzard's software, and I don't think creating a game from scratch is done using Blizzard's software. I suppose if you re-used material then they could try to sue you or something like that, but seriously, do you realize how bad it would look for a company like Blizzard to pursue a court case against someone creating an indy game with a storyline they created?

Anyways, I see nothing wrong with Blizzard being able to control material created with their software, truthfully the only thing Blizzard would use this for is getting rid of harmful/offensive material produced with their tools. If you really think they could (or would) just go ahead and take someones map away from them and start charging money for it, you must be awfully naive about how the world works.
 
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In short, they can rape us without having any problems with the law.

Not true. You can still doupt the legality of the ToS attending a court, this is why they wont abuse the ToS in such ways. It's rly just to have their backs covered from every possible aspect and they'll use it for security reasons mainly cause they cant risk having the ToS being declared illegal and thus having no control over their product in that country.

It's like Gibson charging a fee over the songs been played from their guitars, or toothbrash companies charging you every time you brash your teeth with their product. It cant rly legaly stand.
 
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Blizzard has not and will neverr stolen maps. That's the job of lazy, uncreative mapmakers who can't make one to save their lives. Like the old saying goes, 'Pics or it didn't happen.'
 
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Seriously guys.

Stop dissing this. Blizzard is turning evil thats true but what do we give a crap? Infinity ward just got its ass kicked by the gayest company ever, Activision. In all retrospect, instead of standing here posting on this topic :)con:) how bout actually doing something for a change? Id like to see you guys come up with your own multimillion dollar team and try to make games. Besides, if they own our games, who cares? We can still play them, we can still edit them, people will still know their true owners. Also, instead of sitting here saying how bad sc2 will be and how badly Blizzard will be ripping us off, how bout backing off for a change? Theres other things out there people!!! Ever heard of Call of Duty? Halo? Having a Life? Who gives a damn about what they want to do!!! Besides your all arguing about one little issue! Theres tons more evil things going on with that company! They say its not going to be like WoW, monthly fees. Thats a bunch of bull. Also, Getting a new copy for every server u want to play on??? what the [email protected]
 
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I think many of you missed an important keyword in the agreement,

“User Content” means any communications, images, sounds, and all the material and information that you upload or transmit through a Game client or the Service, or that other users upload or transmit, including without limitation any chat text. You hereby grant Blizzard a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, paid-up, non-exclusive, license

This part basically means that you also still own the license to whatever you created, so if you decide to make a game of your own out of it there is nothing Blizzard legally can do about it.

However Blizzard can do whatever they want with your map once you publish it on B.Net, but they still don't own the exclusive rights to it.

(PS. This stuff will most likely not hold up in court, however no map maker has the money to go up against Blizzard's lawyers anyway so it doesn't really matter)
 
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I'm going to shutup after this since its getting pretty pointless.
1. I said Icefrog COULD, I did not say he did or does.
2. Non-exclusive means they can use what you create and put in their game in anyway they want.
3. I'm not saying they are actually going to do of anything, I am not saying that this will hold up in court, all I was doing was pointing out that they are leaving their options open, so that if they wanted to they can attempt it.
 
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2. Non-exclusive means they can use what you create and put in their game in anyway they want.
lol.

Also, they COULD do anything if they wanted to. If I wanted to, I could go and stab my entire family with a knife from my kitchen. What someone CAN do is very different from what they will/would do. Doing something like that would be an idiotic business decision; I can hardly think of worse publicity that is feasibly possible.
 
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Seriously guys.

Stop dissing this. Blizzard is turning evil thats true but what do we give a crap? Infinity ward just got its ass kicked by the gayest company ever, Activision. In all retrospect, instead of standing here posting on this topic :)con:) how bout actually doing something for a change? Id like to see you guys come up with your own multimillion dollar team and try to make games. Besides, if they own our games, who cares? We can still play them, we can still edit them, people will still know their true owners. Also, instead of sitting here saying how bad sc2 will be and how badly Blizzard will be ripping us off, how bout backing off for a change? Theres other things out there people!!! Ever heard of Call of Duty? Halo? Having a Life? Who gives a damn about what they want to do!!! Besides your all arguing about one little issue! Theres tons more evil things going on with that company! They say its not going to be like WoW, monthly fees. Thats a bunch of bull. Also, Getting a new copy for every server u want to play on??? what the [email protected]

Without WoW Fee's How is blizz going to pay their employees?
And please don't spread false info.. You only need one copy and you can play on as many servers as you wish.
 
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Technically There is no such as "No-Reason" everthing that happens has a reason.

Example: ( Jim is a Dev) Jim is mad at someone so he Bans X Number of accounts
Some would say no reason, but he had a reason, he was angry
 
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Technically There is no such as "No-Reason" everthing that happens has a reason.

Example: ( Jim is a Dev) Jim is mad at someone so he Bans X Number of accounts
Some would say no reason, but he had a reason, he was angry

..Jim gets fired :grin:
 
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1. I said Icefrog COULD, I did not say he did or does.it.

You said this:


As for how Icefrog could get money, he could get revenue through sites like playdota.com, but he claims he doesn't make any profit himself and that the ad revenue just supports the site.

You said "the ad revenue;" Jassu and I only pointed out that there are no ads, thus no ad revenue.

Also, they COULD do anything if they wanted to. If I wanted to, I could go and stab my entire family with a knife from my kitchen. What someone CAN do is very different from what they will/would do. Doing something like that would be an idiotic business decision; I can hardly think of worse publicity that is feasibly possible.

Yes! Thank you. You win this topic.
 
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