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TOS explanation and myths

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by Paillan, Jan 29, 2020.

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  1. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    No you technically have accepted it. Since you are aware of the ToU and also skipped it knowing what the ToU are.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  2. Paillan

    Paillan

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    If we go by the line of though that considers a click on accept equal to signing, then by all means, no, you haven't signed aynthing.
    However this is impossible to prove, so the best outcome is if blizzard also can't prove that you clicked. In any case, as said in the post, most maps need not to worry about this.

    Contracts need to be signed tho, and for online contracts the most accepted interpretation is that click on accept = signing.

    Sorry for double post.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  3. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    It means that he's acting unlawful, not that he signed it.
     
  4. Ralle

    Ralle

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    Site Discussion is for discussions about the site. But then again, this is very relevant to the site. I thought about moving it but then I thought against it.
     
  5. Paillan

    Paillan

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    I have added a website link for those who need a license.
     
  6. Krolan

    Krolan

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    I will state here for the record once again that in absolutely all circumstances it has been stated in precedences of actually happened court-cases, that neither ideas nor concepts are copyrightable (or "trademarkable", whatever blizzard thinks it is attempting when it would pursue so called "legal" action)

    The case with DotA, to me, is also not the first time someone got bullied into being scared, that there might be a chance that a company has a legitimate claim to something, it even comes up with people reporting on leaked data, which is equally ridiculous, with then there being a "behind the scenes private resolution" thing. Blizzard is doing, what quite a few Scam-based groups and some very shady lawyers in very shady companies have repeated time and time again, to fail to ever sue anyone for 100% of the time, failing to scare anyone for 99% of the time, but a 1% is naive, stupid, scared or just sick of it and wants them to stop, by whatever means necassary, and therefor then there is a "compromize".

    Invade into the Claimage (yes, that's a word now) of something that by all laws of justice, logic and common sense has nothing to do with you, then attempt to reach a "compromise", as previously, you would have just gotten nothing out of it, now you are getting something out of it.

    Might as well rob a person, clearly taking posession of anothers property, but then, before it would come to any form of legal battle, which you brought up and threatened with, give half of what you robbed back and call it a "compromise".



    Btw. Yes, Blizzard can of course ban people and their maps from their service, but without a legitimate, actual legal, basis, it would open a completely different can of worms called "discrimination", treating someone differently from anyone else (insert arbitrary common example here) based on personal disliking or loathing of a person, which a "I don't like that you make mods that are better than anything me and my multi-billion dollar company has produced, so I will claim that it somehow broke the law for you to dare to make a mod, and ban you from my service." would constitute.
    Selective Discrimination by a company is always a fun little thing, so I urge you to take your time, but over the course of some months or years, come to an understanding that this publicly traded company owes something, morally, and, given their incompetence, legally, to their customers/contributers, not the other way around.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  7. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I mean could their silly EULA go past the constitution or main country law package?
     
  8. Krolan

    Krolan

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    I am no lawyer, but in all cases of silly contracts saying silly things, even in employment contracts, I only ever saw companies threatening you, trying to act all convinced of their right to demand something that they can't from you, and quickly backing off if you even slightly resist.

    If their silly EULA, which would be a hilariously failing attempt, would even reach court, I think it would have as much argumentative power as stating to a group of video-game-business investigators, that those are not "loot boxes" but "Surprise Mechanics"
     
  9. DrakPanda

    DrakPanda

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    the initial post is extremely thorough, and nicely edited as new information comes in and is compiled

    may i add this thread to my signature of helpful/important links? @Paillan
     
  10. Paillan

    Paillan

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    Thanks for the good response. Sure, go for it. The more people see it the better.
     
  11. Fingolfin

    Fingolfin

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    Personally, I don't think the ownership clause is as big of an issue as the copyright clause. By changing the hosting architecture from p2p to server based, Blizzard find themselves in the position of having content related to copyrighted IPs on their servers. This makes them legally responsible to remove it, or they might receive hefty fines. This is already an issue for SC2 where map makers have been asked to remove my Star Wars models from their maps.
     
  12. Arcmage

    Arcmage

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    Not true. Let's take a look at the relevant paragraph from Facebook's Terms of Service
    or Youtube
    or Twitter
    Now compare that to Blizzard's End User Licence Agreement.
    Most platforms ask you to give them a license to use your content in certain ways. Blizzard asks that you give them 100% of the rights to your content to the maximum extent legally allowable.

    Section 3 of the EULA "Use of Third Party Content in Custom Games." gives Blizzard the authority to remove any map containing 3ed party IP (like Star Wars). They don't need to claim full ownership of your content in order to do that. YouTube, Facebook, and every other content service require you agree not to post material that infringes copyright. But they don't have to claim full ownership over your submissions.

    This is not a standard corporate policy. It goes far beyond most other services in claiming full ownership over any intellectual property you create or own and incorporate into a map.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  13. FeelsGoodMan

    FeelsGoodMan

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    Hmm that's weird, I could have sworn I had a discussion with some dude here on THW who was super concerned about posting memes on Facebook as Facebook then "owned his memes".

    I might have confused the whole thing with Facebook being allowed to monetize your work while it is uploaded to their platform.
     
  14. Fingolfin

    Fingolfin

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    It's not about who owns the content, it's about who distributes it. With a peer to peer system, you as a player are the one hosting the content. This is not very different from modding in general and should fall under fair use. With the current system though, maps need to be uploaded and stored on Blizzard servers, which not only gives them the power to curate content, but also the legal responsibility to do so in the same way as YouTube has the responsibility to remove copyrighted content.
     
  15. Nightmare2077

    Nightmare2077

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    Oh, no problem whatsoever. I only spent a few thousand hours making my Warhammer mod over the last 10 years, it's totally okay if now it becomes unplayable.

    Additionally, everyone can play it in the old Warcraft 3 client, just launch the classic and pretend reforged doesn't exist, that's an entirely valid option!

    Long live Warcraft III Unforged!:ogre_hurrhurr::ogre_hurrhurr:
     
  16. Paillan

    Paillan

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    Please keep discussion around TOS. Also yes, you are allowed to not sign and use an older version of TOS you did sign, but blizzard might say TOS is retroactive (which btw it isn't).
     
  17. Nightmare2077

    Nightmare2077

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    Isn't the copyright clause a part of ToS? Or it has to do with EULA but not ToS? Sorry, I'm not a lawyer ('not yet a lawyer', at this pace).

    My complaint is that my Warhammer mod de jure must/might become unplayable by people - period.

    I understand that most mods do not use (are not based around) 3rd party copyrighted material, therefore my situation is not a common one. It is a grave one, however. Hundreds upon hundreds of my life's hours (both past and future) are on the line. I've not yet grasped whether I should panic or not.
     
  18. There will never be a map like DotA again, you won't become rich from a WC3 map. Also no one's going to go to court with Blizzard. They have billions and can afford it, you probably can't. In the American legal system the person with more money typically wins. They'd drag it out and make you spend hundreds of thousands in fees. It doesn't matter if the contract is legal, that's why companies are comfortable creating possibly illegal contracts like this. Only possibility of any legal action is a class-action lawsuit over the game in general or another larger studio defending their IP (such as Valve vs. Blizzard).

    The more concerning part is no longer being allowed to use 3rd party models/skins/etc. in your game. This would affect a massive amount of WC3 games, and with Blizzard intentionally centralizing custom maps (must be hosted through cloud) I would assume that they plan to abuse this. There's no doubt that a large factor of Reforged was taking control of custom games. You aren't allowed to play the games you want anymore, only if uncle blizzard says you can.

    Older versions of WC3 still work fine. I would encourage people to refuse to buy Reforged if you have a problem with the changes. The reason why gaming companies keep doing this kind of thing where they release a half-made game with ridiculously harsh EULA is because people keep buying it. There have been so many examples in the past years yet everyone still pre-orders and buys games like this. Maybe gamers were just made to be abused for their wallets.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2020
  19. DrakPanda

    DrakPanda

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    was it ever abused in sc2? or sc remastered? same EULA
     
  20. Paillan

    Paillan

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    Yes, copyright clause is part of the new ToS. Now the reason for it is simple. Since according to blizzard they now own all maps, if they were to own a map with copyrighted material they would be breaking someone else's copyright, meaning a potential sue for them.
    As such and in order to avoid such problems, they said they would take out copyrighted material. Now, I'd like to point out that this is blizzard overeacting.
    First, most companies don't even know what a wc3 map is and will never know, as such they'll never know their assests are being used, unless blizzard wants to make that specific map into a standalone game, which makes no sense. So this is just here to provoke panic.
    Second, the existance of a report buttom suggests that maps won't be checked on unless reported, which while some may report maps just for shit and giggles, I would assume that most people will only report maps with truly unaceptable content (porn, nazism, etc.)


    Nobody said that you are going to court with blizzard. I explained the process already. You need to make your map into a game first and then blizzard MIGHT sue you.
    Now if blizzard beats you too it and makes the game first, if your map truly has the fanbase to justify that, you can just tell your fanbase as a creator to not support this IP in discord groups and such. Dota 2 and League only worked so well because they were endorsed by dota 1 dev in the first case and had some of the other dota 1 devs in the second case. If blizzard makes your map into a game you may not be able to claim any rights, but you can sabotage it