-The Ten Lulmandments-

[Pyritie]

It's not really a problem with the users specifically at all. Most of the problem is with the staff. The main hurdle we've been having actually lies with the directors more than anything.

 

[Naze]

Yes, that is, Hakeem. But the point of this thread is:

Also, Elenai only wanted people to be less harsh when unecessary, and more serious when needed. It isn't that hard, and we could actually have more fun with that. The only 9% users who care about the Hive a bit more than the rest should try it, not meh at it.

If your pride is high enough to don't accept the idea in public (like in this thread), but actually consider that while posting, okay. What matters are your actions.

And Py... yeah, that's another problem...

 

[brad.dude03]

qft



Point 3, some mods are just children, with all due respect you can't take children serious.

Let's have a rule that mods have to be 18+. xD

I call BS right here. Ralle started this site when he was 15. And it was awesome.

Wolverabid was a 47 year old, look where he is, nowhere to be found.

When we've had such valuable underage staffers like Hawkwing, Camel's_Hump and Bob27 over the ages, all more mature than 99% of the people 18 or over, that theory just goes straight out the window.

Age has absolutely nothing to do with anything here.

 

[Zombie]

Lol, nahw that didn't happen, it was something about making a thread where he said that he didn't like a mod for how he treated him.
Something about neg rep him, then he got another -rep from an other mod because that mod didn't pay attention that the guy was already punished and said sorry.
Then the first mod gives him an overkill of -rep and bans him for apologizing in a visitor message.

I didn't mean this specific case, but you sounded like apologizing erases all the crimes someone made. Also, I think I recall this case, and that guy TOTALLY deserved what he got. He made a thread against a certain "mod" which is illegal outside admin contact anyway and he used a rather offensive tone and stupid arguments for it.

Nevermind. Apologizing can't erase the mistakes you make, no matter how sorry you are.

 

[VeljkoM]

I think we all have agreed that age is not the factor on this site.

 

[Naze]

Yes. Frosty is older than Hawkwing and look where he is now.

 

[Vegavak]

You guys can lie to yourselves all you want about being under a certain age and being so mature and capable, but the fact is that a lot of you are not capable. Things of which you will be as you age. Just as whiskey starts off clear, obtaining a fine amber hew with age. You can still steal a barrel of it before it ages and poison yourself with it, though the journey would be less pleasant than it ought to be. The same holds true here.

You can all get me drunk if I drink you, but you won't taste as sweet.

 

[Elenai]

Age is no measure of maturity. Actions and intentions are. "Most" of us have had failures of some kind.

We as the staff need to figure out "our strengths, and weaknesses" so that we can better ourselves...I am currently trying to do this...

As for this thread, what I am trying to do here is see what the HIVE userbase wants.

What do you as the HIVE want? (be civil when stating it)

 

[Vegavak]

Simply because exceptions exist, does not mean that everyone is one. That's why they are exceptions. As I stated:

You can lie to yourselves all you want about being under a certain age and being so mature and capable, but the fact is that a lot of you are not capable.

This isn't the first time you've started talking about actions and intentions out of the blue. What the hell does it have to do with the fact that a lot of you are not capable for staff positions? And if you don't know your strengths and weaknesses, then why are you part of the staff?

 

[Naze]

As for this thread, what I am trying to do here is see what the HIVE userbase wants.

What do you as the HIVE want? (be civil when stating it)

I want, just as you want, to have more serious actions when needed (which doesn't happen mainly by the not veteran members, and it is hard to change, since they're the majority), and less serious behavior when unecessary (which happens by the veteran members, who want to look cool by being serious/harsh/bitching/whatever. Also, this is simple to solve, since the veteran members are more thinking than the rest)

I think I made myself clear.

 

[Elenai]

This isn't the first time you've started talking about actions and intentions out of the blue. What the hell does it have to do with the fact that a lot of you are not capable for staff positions? And if you don't know your strengths and weaknesses, then why are you part of the staff?

First of all...we are humans, we do not know all of our strengths, and all of our weaknesses.

Second of all, we are on the staff, because we volunteered, and because we do our job well. That doesn't mean we cannot improve.

Third, because we can improve, we are not therefore perfect, and because we are not perfect, we must try to improve, and the best way to improve is to gain a better understanding of what we do best, and where we fail.

If you MUST be perfect to be on the staff, then I'd say lets disband the whole site, because no one will ever be perfect and the site will just devolve without some measure of order.

I want, just as you want, to have more serious actions when needed (which doesn't happen mainly by the not veteran members, and it is hard to change, since they're the majority), and less serious behavior when unecessary (which happens by the veteran members, who want to look cool by being serious/harsh/bitching/whatever. Also, this is simple to solve, since the veteran members are more thinking than the rest)

I think I made myself clear.

FINALLY a post that is actually making a step towards the topic:

Would you care to elaborate for us so we may go into depth on this?

 

[Naze]

Well, the max I can elaborate it is:

Don't be too harsh/serious when unecessary. This is a friendly site WCModding site, if you want to be the "serious badass/intelligent guy", go to a philosofy forum, not the Hive. And also, if you're too proud to say you adopt the idea here, on this thread, but you behave better while posting, it is okay. Since you change your mind, it is okay.

Be serious when needed, have clowns or spammers in serious situations isn't funny. Mods/Admins are trying to solve a problem that concern the users, and they get people who only bitch/make fun of the situation/never take anything serious... That doesn't help anyone.

Come on, it is very simple. I know that most 2 months users won't care about what I said (if even they read it), but I trust veterans/thinking users will actually think about, and, maybe, give an opinion. That helps.

 

[Vegavak]

If you MUST be perfect to be on the staff, then I'd say lets disband the whole site, because no one will ever be perfect and the site will just devolve without some measure of order.

Are you stoned and for the first time learning math proofs, or studying for a philosophy test? What does any of what you just said have to do with what I said? (rhetorical)

Part of the reason there are problems on the site is that some, if not most, of the moderators delegated for the position are not capable. Because you are not capable, you spread like a disease to those who are. This is the main reason why The Hive has been so bad at keeping good moderators in position.

You asked what The Hive wants? The Hive wants moderators that moderate. The Hive has wanted moderators for a long time now. Even though moderators have existed, The Hive has wanted moderators still. What does that tell you? It tells me that the moderators haven't been doing their jobs and if it's been going on this long, perhaps a complete revaluation of staff is in order.

The downside to this is that Ralle doesn't know anyone because he's not active, and the only person that might have a clue as to who to choose is tired of all the bullshit that comes along with this site and its moderation in its current state(Dusk).

 

[Elenai]

Then give us your plan Vegavak. Show us the golden path.

Well, the max I can elaborate it is:

Don't be too harsh/serious when unecessary. This is a friendly site WCModding site, if you want to be the "serious badass/intelligent guy", go to a philosofy forum, not the Hive. And also, if you're too proud to say you adopt the idea here, on this thread, but you behave better while posting, it is okay. Since you change your mind, it is okay.

Be serious when needed, have clowns or spammers in serious situations isn't funny. Mods/Admins are trying to solve a problem that concern the users, and they get people who only bitch/make fun of the situation/never take anything serious... That doesn't help anyone.

Come on, it is very simple. I know that most 2 months users won't care about what I said (if even they read it), but I trust veterans/thinking users will actually think about, and, maybe, give an opinion. That helps.

I think we can try and do this.

 

[Hakeem]

We've had good moderators, and we have good moderators now. Replacing them isn't going to help. It's been done. If we keep throwing out the old mods then we'll burn through all the good mods. I'd venture to say most people are not qualified to be a good moderator, so what you end up with if you keep recycling the mods is worse mods than you had before.

The mods and admins aren't leaving because of the other mods.

 

[Naze]

Are you stoned and for the first time learning math proofs, or studying for a philosophy test? What does any of what you just said have to do with what I said? (rhetorical)

Part of the reason there are problems on the site is that some, if not most, of the moderators delegated for the position are not capable. Because you are not capable, you spread like a disease to those who are. This is the main reason why The Hive has been so bad at keeping good moderators in position.

You asked what The Hive wants? The Hive wants moderators that moderate. The Hive has wanted moderators for a long time now. Even though moderators have existed, The Hive has wanted moderators still. What does that tell you? It tells me that the moderators haven't been doing their jobs and if it's been going on this long, perhaps a complete revaluation of staff is in order.

The downside to this is that Ralle doesn't know anyone because he's not active, and the only person that might have a clue as to who to choose is tired of all the bullshit that comes along with this site and its moderation in its current state(Dusk).

Okay, but moderation and users are connected. They don't do their part, it is real, but we users also don't do our part. And we can't ask them to do their part if we don't try to help in any way.

If we show interest in changing and making things better, then we can ask them to do their part, and they'll also feel encouraged to it.

You just can't ask the government to change if you do vandalism at the public areas.

 

[Hakeem]

You can if it's a volunteer government. If you want to help out, that's great, but it is not required of a user to help out. That's what mods and admins are for.

 

[Vegavak]

We've had good moderators, and we have good moderators now. Replacing them isn't going to help. It's been done. If we keep throwing out the old mods then we'll burn through all the good mods. I'd venture to say most people are not qualified to be a good moderator, so what you end up with if you keep recycling the mods is worse mods than you had before.

The mods and admins aren't leaving because of the other mods.

Mods play a larger part in the problem than you think. And I seem to have missed the part where I said that the current moderators couldn't be re-appointed back to a position of power.

Every time anything resembling positive progress comes along, you all scoff at it for no reason other than being intimidated by the possibility of change.

You want a golden path? Re-assessment of current positions and a complete re-evaluation of the staff and their contributions by an unbias candidate. People who are not qualified to be staff can still hold influential positions, just not ones with power over others. That's where a majority of the problem lies.

 

[Elenai]

Not much of a golden path, as it leaves the users out of the change too. Likewise..it seems very hostile to the staff who have volunteered their time and energy too.

However...Who do you propose be the unbiased overseer?

 

[Vegavak]

Not much of a golden path, as it leaves the users out of the change too. Likewise..it seems very hostile to the staff who have volunteered their time and energy too.

However...Who do you propose be the unbiased overseer?

Perhaps what I've said is not your golden path, but what is better for you may not necessarily be better for The Hive. You are mistaken in thinking they are two in the same.

And I fail to see how anyone would consider the act of re-evaluation hostile, unless they were one of the the staff members who didn't think they were qualified to serve in their current position. (Simplified: It's not hostile unless you're not qualified/supposed to be in that position, in which case it's necessary)

As for the proposition of an unbiased candidate to re-evaluate things? I can already see right through your attempt to pick apart my next choice of words. Moving past you being deconstructive, I believe Dusk to be a good candidate for the job. He has the experience and qualifications, as well as the level head needed for it.

To make sure you have to respond constructively, I'll go ahead and assume you want to reply with something along the lines of "This isn't Wc3c and we don't want it to be.", and I'll go ahead and state that the person who needs to make these difficult decisions isn't going to be chosen because he's a moron. The person chosen is going to be someone who knows that this is The Hive and knows what important qualities we're lacking. In Dusk's case, what qualities we can take from WC3C and use for the betterment of the site.

What? You thought I would nominate myself, or even want it? Psh.

 

[Hakeem]

Every time anything resembling positive progress comes along, you all scoff at it for no reason other than being intimidated by the possibility of change.

Don't get me wrong. There are problems and there should be change. We're just not going to change anything unless we solve the core problem. Maybe there should be a change in mods, but that isn't the core issue. It'd be nice if all users followed the rules so the mods never had to do anything, but that isn't the issue either.

 

[Vegavak]

Don't get me wrong. There are problems and there should be change. We're just not going to change anything unless we solve the core problem. Maybe there should be a change in mods, but that isn't the core issue. It'd be nice if all users followed the rules so the mods never had to do anything, but that isn't the issue either.

The problem with that argument is that you're misplacing the blame on the users not following the rules, when it's the moderators that govern them failing to do their very simple job who are to blame.

Change the heads and the bodies will follow. You can't change the body first, and then expect the heads to tag along.

 

[Elenai]

Perhaps what I've said is not your golden path, but what is better for you may not necessarily be better for The Hive. You are mistaken in thinking they are two in the same.

Don't assume...you know what it makes of you.

And I fail to see how anyone would consider the act of re-evaluation hostile, unless they were one of the the staff members who didn't think they were qualified to serve in their current position.

You shouldn't interrogate a volunteer who is only trying to help you clean your house.

(Simplified: It's not hostile unless you're not qualified/supposed to be in that position, in which case it's necessary)

Assumption, and predisposition.

As for the proposition of an unbiased candidate to re-evaluate things? I can already see right through your attempt to pick apart my next choice of words. Moving past you being deconstructive,

Nope, not being deconstructive at all...I'm only asking for you to elaborate.

Why would I pick a suggestion apart? To see if it will work? Never...

I believe Dusk to be a good candidate for the job. He has the experience and qualifications, as well as the level head needed for it.

Alrighty.

To make sure you have to respond constructively,

That is rather snide of you...I planned to respond constructively, that is what I created this thread for. You are being hostile without reason my friend

I'll go ahead and assume you want to reply with something along the lines of "This isn't Wc3c and we don't want it to be.", and I'll go ahead and state that the person who needs to make these difficult decisions isn't going to be chosen because he's a moron. The person chosen is going to be someone who knows that this is The Hive and knows what important qualities we're lacking. In Dusk's case, what qualities we can take from WC3C and use for the betterment of the site.

Remember not to assume...

And a bit of a secret: psst...I'm originally from wc3c, and quite frankly I don't fall into the crowd who things they are 'elitist' .

What? You thought I would nominate myself, or even want it? Psh.

[singsongvoice]Assumption of thought...[/singsongvoice]

However...

If someone can't do something right...do it yourself, thus the old axiom.

Change the heads and the bodies will follow. You can't change the body first, and then expect their old heads to tag along.

The users are the head, and body, we are but the cricket on their shoulder. Likewise, we are also users, who have simply volunteered our time to make sure the resources work, the forums are clean, and the users don't have to deal with 'trashy people'.

---

So essentially we need to find a way to be more fun, but also not stupid about it when we need to do some work.

We also need according to Vegavak, another reworking of the staff, which I think could be done simply by increasing communication and focusing on strengths and helping each other with our weaknesses.

Any other suggestions?

 

[Hakeem]

I'm just saying it would be nice if all the users followed the rules. You can't blame that as the problem, because then it can never be solved. I don't think lack of moderation is a problem. Aside from the maps section, I do not see us as stressed in our moderation. I think most of our mods are qualified.

Change the heads and the bodies will follow. You can't change the body first, and then expect the heads to tag along.

It's funny, how completely I agree with this point.

 

[PurplePoot]

This topic has been discussed to death over the past few years... is there really any need to keep talking about it? What you need to do if you are really concerned is get together and do something about it. Yes, you can make a difference if you try.

---

Did I mention Vega's font is incredibly sexy?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Yes, you can make a difference if you try.

That's so naive it's actually funny. You can only make the kind of change that changes nothing of consequence.

 

[PurplePoot]

Assuming you only sit around and talk about it, yes.

However, in my experience, even drastic changes (like the new director system) can be done as long as you put some effort, beyond just talking, into getting them done.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Ralle already wanted something like the director system, I just talked him into actually doing it. Besides, like I said --

You can only make the kind of change that changes nothing of consequence.

Some big change the directors were to the way the site worked. Doesn't work quite as nicely as at wc3c, unfortunately.

 

[AirHead]

[/Universalofftopic]
this is all I came up with

Well first of all, Ralle is the Webmaster your authority.

1: You shall not act as if users are above mods
2: You shall not make a mockery of mods
3: Remember the Conclusion date and respect it
4: Honor your mods and admins
5: You shall not flame
6: You shall not troll
7: You shall not steal credit
8: You shall not bear false witness against your fellow user
9: You shall not covet your fellow user's rep
10: You shall not covet any resource that belongs to your fellow user

ok you can continue now.
[Universalofftopic]

P.S. Waoa! I got 400 posts!

 

[Joe-black-5]

11-snitches get thrown in the dumb.

 

[Naze]

[/Universalofftopic]
this is all I came up with

Well first of all, Ralle is the Webmaster your authority.

1: You shall not act as if users are above mods
2: You shall not make a mockery of mods
3: Remember the Conclusion date and respect it
4: Honor your mods and admins
5: You shall not flame
6: You shall not troll
7: You shall not steal credit
8: You shall not bear false witness against your fellow user
9: You shall not covet your fellow user's rep
10: You shall not covet any resource that belongs to your fellow user

ok you can continue now.
[Universalofftopic]

P.S. Waoa! I got 400 posts!

We've got rules that says the same things...

Change the heads and the bodies will follow. You can't change the body first, and then expect the heads to tag along.

Well, Vegavak, the heads already got changed many times, but that didn't solve our problem. We, the body, just sit around and shout from our chairs "Hey head, you fail at doing your job, you have to change".

We, body, along with the head, should change. No need change ourselves first and then ask the head "We are okay, can you change now?". We are together in this site.

In other words, my point is: We already changed the head few times and the same problems came along again. Now, lets try changing the body along with the head.

 

[Elenai]

/Naze speaks a great truth.

The head is fed by the body afterall...it must change along with us. We are making that effort, the body must follow.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Ralle is inactive, Archian doesn't care, Ghan doesn't even want his job, Frank is oblivious, Rui does his own thing, Mecheon may as well be a global mod and not an admin, and Samuraid only mechanically helps the site and partakes of chat. Now none of that was to insult anyone, but come on; the "head" as you call it really doesn't give a shit. After that, only a small portion of the users actually do give a shit.

Quit with your wild fantasies of the Hive being a better place. Not enough people want it for it to become a reality.

 

[Mecheon]

Mecheon may as well be a global mod and not an admin

I AM only a global mod. Heck, I'm just a global mod with a bit more power behind my punch really

I can't do any admin stuff, hence why I chuck it to the others

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Global Moderator would be a more suitable title for you, then. Site Rule Enforcer makes it sound like you're an admin that functions as a global mod. If you agree, I can go ahead and make it happen.

 

[Naze]

Not enough people want it for it to become a reality.

People want it, but they just don't want to take part of the change. The head/staff doesn't give a shit, and if we bitch at them, they wouldn't even log on this site anymore.

I mean, come on, you get a bad job, you don't want to work anymore and people kick you all the time for not doing your work. And, if you do, they kick you saying "it's high time you started doing something, huh?". It is a chain, one thing leads to other.

Dusk, you're the one breaking the chain, and so do I, and we have to agree that something should be done to fix the head (which will fix the rest).

If you just do your job, get at home and say "I'm doing my part", it also won't help anyway.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Dusk, you're the one breaking the chain, and so do I, and we have to agree that something should be done to fix the head (which will fix the rest).

Breaking the chain? Naze, that doesn't even make sense.

Ralle is inactive, Archian doesn't care, Ghan doesn't even want his job, Frank is oblivious, Rui does his own thing, Mecheon may as well be a global mod and not an admin, and Samuraid only mechanically helps the site and partakes of chat.

Read that and then suggest to me what can be done to fix it. Any brilliant ideas?

 

[busterkomo]

Read that and then suggest to me what can be done to fix it. Any brilliant ideas?

Promote people that are qualified and have the motivation to fulfill their position.

 

[bounty hunter2]

So you are basically saying that all mods are bad? They can't be perfect, but most of them do their job, in one way or another. There are problems, but what would a world be without problems. I don't know what the Hive is striving to, but the way it is now it isn't as bad as everyone speaks of it. Sure, there are places where it can be improved, but it does function. We must understand that this is a site dedicated to a 8 year old computer game. Maybe things will go on better when Starcraft II comes out? Who knows

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Promote people that are qualified and have the motivation to fulfill their position.

Who, praytell?

So you are basically saying that all mods are bad?

No, I did not say that. I said many staff members fight each other because while they do their job, they are not of the maturity level required to keep a level head when it's most necessary. Everyone's human, and everyone has a limit to what they can take before they get angry, but for some staff members that limit is far too low to be healthy for the site. They don't represent a site well, which is the second half of what I consider the necessities to be a staff member.

• You give users permissions you can trust them to use properly, pending rule #2 --
• The user would represent the site well as a staff member.

Most mods simply do not. At all.

 

[Linaze]

Read that and then suggest to me what can be done to fix it. Any brilliant ideas?

Wolverabid.

 

[Pyritie]

...is not an option.

 

[Kwah]

... which is a damn shame.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Okay, we get it, it sucks that Wolv is gone. That is years of bygone history people, get over it. Let's work in the present, here.

 

[busterkomo]

Who, praytell?

The administration should vote on it. I mean there are talented people on the site who I'm sure would do it.

 

[Squiggy]

Wut?
I donated.. then I want my money back

 

[Rising_Dusk]

The administration should vote on it.

Quit dodging. There is no one that could possibly do a good job who would actually want to in the first place.

 

[Elenai]

Things we must solve as the Staff:

-Communication

-Grudges

-Misunderstandings

-Focus on the strengths

-Help each other with the weaknesses

Users:

-Try to understand that we are not maids, and that we are trying to do something seriously, but that we also need some time for fun, and we need help from the Users to maintain ourselves, and maybe a little thank you here and there.

-And remember, we are humans...We are subject to fits of emotion, which we DO try to keep under control...but when we say "stop it" we mean it.

And quite frankly...I don't see why we should abandon Wolverabid in our thought. Afterall he is the perfect rolemodel to follow.

It was when he was around that we felt like family, and I don't think it is "because of wolverabid" but because of several things.

When he was around:

We had a level headed and respected limiter, a hand to ease us down when we got to roudy, and so we were always having good clean fun, and didn't feel the heavy burden of modship, or userdom (I was a user at the time).

Essentially, we had free reign on 'fun time' and when he said shush we did. And when ever there was the need for seriousness we were quite like good family members respecting our elders.

He encouraged us, and kept us supporting each other, and thus we were able to focus on our strengths, get good and kind advice from a man who had experienced life (thus we were privileged to listen to him), and when ever we had a big fight he always helped us settle it with a handshake and a proverb before a drama storm could even start.

Wolverabid is no longer here...To speak poetically, he was our HIVE father, and we are like his sons. And it is time perhaps...that we mirrored his example.

 

[Linaze]

You speak wisely, Elenai. Especially that part about mirroring Wolverabid's way of the Hive. But let's be honest, there is no way out of the shitfuck the Hive is in at this time, at least now without the drastic measures that would be required for drastic changes, so to say..

Like for example, our administrators have pretty much given up hope. Like dusk said before, Ralle and Archian are doing little nothing, Ghan is Ghan, Samuraid hasn't ever bothered for anything other than technical issues, really. The list goes on, our administrators have abandoned us.

 

[Elenai]

No..not drastic changes, or even measures.

All we need is cooperation, understanding, and a little leap of faith.

But most importantly, if the staff is to work, we need the support of the users. You are our backbone, as much as we wouldn't like to admit it...

Scratch our back, and we'll scratch yours.

If we can take things one step at a time, little baby steps of maturity, in how we manage our work and play, we can do this.

The change will be exponential, the more baby steps we take, the faster we'll go as we go along.