How Long...

[Karawasa]

Since the direction thread was closed by a new and wonderful mod, the discussion continues here.

When do you guys think this place will cease being a cesspool of trolling and drama? Is it possible to return to a forum where stuff actually gets done? If it is, what should the focus be on? If it isn't, how long will you stay?

These are meant to be serious questions. Let's keep it on-topic so that the new and wonderful mod doesn't have an excuse to close it.

 

[Levdragon]

Well ralle wants to focus on the community over quality or quantity of WC3 abilities, so I believe that is where it's heading? TBH I see his point and how his ex-admins talking his lack of presence and influence website down contributed to these events but their multitude of resources will be greatly missed.

 

[Karawasa]

Well ralle wants to focus on the community over quality or quantity of WC3 abilities, so I believe that is where it's heading? TBH I see his point and how his ex-admins talking his lack of presence and influence website down contributed to these events but their multitude of resources will be greatly missed.

That's the goal yes. Will it ever be reached? Who knows. But even if it is, what will be the purpose of this site? WC3 is a dead end. SC2 can't catch up with SC2Mapster. So...what then?

 

[Levdragon]

WC3 is a dead end? Well older games still live, sure it's decreasing but it still has a large population of people playing it, (hundreds of thousands according to bnet stats). And yeah Sc2 section of hive isn't as big as SC2Mapster. So what then? Well the Hive should just keep doing what's it done, stick to Wc3 models, resoucres etc. as well as place where you can learn to map and the lot. Back in 2008 when I attempted serious mapping the hive helped me so much (as well as wc3helper) and this in my opinion, is the true purpose of Hive.

 

[Stanakin]

WC3 is a dead end

'nuff said.

 

[~Void~]

Since the direction thread was closed by a new and wonderful mod, the discussion continues here.

When do you guys think this place will cease being a cesspool of trolling and drama? Is it possible to return to a forum where stuff actually gets done? If it is, what should the focus be on? If it isn't, how long will you stay?

These are meant to be serious questions. Let's keep it on-topic so that the new and wonderful mod doesn't have an excuse to close it.

I understand your concern but they are stupid questions, and do not serve any purpose but to stir up more sh*t. If you want to discuss this seriously, see my thread here.

Thank you.

WC3 is a dead end.

It is, however, a very well-designed dead end with a loyal fanbase. Think of it the same way you do music or movies - Stanley Kubrick still has fans, the Beatles still have fans, hell, even small-time acts like H.P. Lovecraft (the band, not the author) still have fans, all of which fan groups include myself, born twenty-five years later. So why can't Rao Dao Zao still have fans? Just because it's not brand new doesn't mean it's not a better game. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this straight: Starcraft II sucks. It's a huge disappointment to me and I think there are a lot of WC3 diehards out there who would agree with me.

I understand that you make "commercial" maps intending for them to be popular, and that's great; I've worked with you before, and you do a great job. But there are still a lot of good map makers still working in the good ol' WorldEdit and you are completely dismissing them by projecting your own viewpoint.

 

[Bugz]

SC2 can't catch up with SC2Mapster. So...what then?

You write in the SC2 section unless your loyal to THW. I rather ask questions here, since i know this place.

 

[Karawasa]

I understand your concern but they are stupid questions, and do not serve any purpose but to stir up more sh*t.

That was not their purpose. I think it's legitimate to ask if people think this site will survive the drama. I also think it's important to discuss what the future direction of the site will be. Your thread is about staff; that's not what I wanted to discuss.

I understand that you make "commercial" maps intending for them to be popular, and that's great; I've worked with you before, and you do a great job. But there are still a lot of good map makers still working in the good ol' WorldEdit and you are completely dismissing them by projecting your own viewpoint.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I would not be content modding for a virtually dead userbase. You already hinted at that. I'm not dismissing the skill of the WC3 modders, rather the amount of players left.

 

[~Void~]

That was not their purpose. I think it's legitimate to ask if people think this site will survive the drama. I also think it's important to discuss what the future direction of the site will be. Your thread is about staff; that's not what I wanted to discuss.

I would agree with you, but I've seen enough of those threads in the past to tell you that all they do is start a bunch of useless b*tching. It's not constructive at all. As a member, you shouldn't be asking IF the site will survive; you should be trying to make sure it does. Otherwise, I see no reason to post in Site Discussion.

Furthermore, we are discussing the same issue here. Hive has always survived the drama. The problem now is that the people who made sure it did are hardly around anymore, if at all, which poses the problem of adequate replacement.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I would not be content modding for a virtually dead userbase. You already hinted at that. I'm not dismissing the skill of the WC3 modders, rather the amount of players left.

Fair enough. The WC3 modding community is definitely shifting from public to private. As Hive is the largest standing English WC3 modding site, I shall defend it until the end, which I hope I'll never see.

---

For all of you who think it impossible for Hive to last forever: http://aok.heavengames.com/
Age of Kings was released in 1998 and is another of my favorite games.

 

[takakenji]

When People Stop Crying and Pretending that By Leaving hive they are some Martyrs I mean this is a Warcraft 3 Modding forum Get over urself

 

[Crazed_seal2]

The Hive is slowly dying, not from the bans, but the fact that the game the site mods is dying.

Yes we can make maps, but who will play them except some Filipino's?

 

[~Void~]

The Hive is slowly dying, not from the bans, but the fact that the game the site mods is dying.

Yes we can make maps, but who will play them except some Filipino's?

1. Singleplayer maps
2. Private multiplayer games among loyal community members (which DO still exist)

The second thing I listed is exactly why we need to keep Hive alive. There ARE still people who care about the game, but they WILL give up if people keep talking like this.

I've heard "the hive is slowly dying" since I joined in 2007. It's not dead yet, a lot of the loyal members are still here, and I'm sure some of the ones who left would come back if Hive got its sh*t together.

 

[Statharas]

As time passed, i devoted more and more time thinking of ideas to improve the hive's sc2 section. I really loved this site, but nowdays i feel like it's not worth it anymore. I have applied for a sc2 resource moderator, seeing that dsg was more of the forum moderation and technical issues guy, i've talked to ralle on msn about lots of ideas that could beat mapster out of existance, tried boosting the hive by uploading my models only here, but ralle just didn't give a damn.
Honestly, i'd blame him for letting the mapster top the hive.

 

[Karawasa]

i've talked to ralle on msn about lots of ideas that could beat mapster out of existance...but ralle just didn't give a damn.

That's really too bad. That ought to put an end to the wave of people thinking this site can catch up with SC2Mapster.

Honestly, i'd blame him for letting the mapster top the hive.

As you should. The buck stops with the person in charge.

 

[Sephalo]

Isn't wc3c quality > quantity.
I don't call wc3c dead, but it's not really an active forum.

I prefer hive the way it was. A few douchbags here and there doesn't hurt. And even if some people say the moderators behaved bad, then I don't care about it to be honest.
If you keep banning people for small misbehaviour you are killing the social part of this site. Therefor making it just like wc3c. And well I like wc3c because of the nice resources, but the forums are boring in there and nothing happens really.
I was hoping THW and wc3c could be a bit different then eachother in this. But as it goes now THW is becomming like wc3c, killing the social/community part of wc3 modding.

In my opinion this has gone way too far. People are acting very childish on the zero tolerance stuff while on the other hand the changes made by Ralle and TDW aren't good in any way for the site.
I don't want to insult people and start shouting like many people here do, because that's not the way to solve things. I have my opinion, but to get to a solution changes have to be made. I wish hive wouldve stayed the same as a month ago, but be reasonable that's not possible anymore.

I don't have a solution for the situation now.
But I do know that blaming and shouting at the moment doesn't help, it only gets the discussions closed for those that do want to talk in a normal way.

 

[Asomath]

Isn't wc3c quality > quantity.
I don't want to insult people and start shouting like many people here do, because that's not the way to solve things. I have my opinion, but to get to a solution changes have to be made. I wish hive wouldve stayed the same as a month ago, but be reasonable that's not possible anymore.

I don't have a solution for the situation now.
But I do know that blaming and shouting at the moment doesn't help, it only gets the discussions closed for those that do want to talk in a normal way.

Definitely man, people should get that shouting isnt going to work at the moment. At least, not among users. If something changes among the staff, then sure, but if not, I guess its best to keep moving forward. Because the Hive will, one way or the other, become a productive forum again.

As to that respect, no, WC3 is not dead. Is it decaying? To some extent. I do agree we need to expand from it (without abandoning it of course). With that a few opinions:

SC2

Will we be able to overtake sc2mapster? Realistically, the answer is no. The posibillity to become a rival force in SC2 modding over the course of the next two expansions is still there, however slim it may be. Since Ralle has already been working on including SC2 in his new Hive version, we might as well have him finish that, give him support in that, and see where it goes. A few factors are still in play that work towards our favor. One, SC2 Mapster is ugly. This might just be for me, but it seems to lack a streamline look. Also, the Art tools and new development tools havent been released yet, so the Hive still has a chance to become a competitor in the artistic side of SC2 modding. This, of course, depends upon the Hive artist's desire to improve upon their own skills.

Other games?

Ralle did provide a good bit of insight on this when he said that the Hive would have to focus on the new game for a few years before it would finally become established enough to add another game. Since he has already been working to make SC2 a good portion of the Hive, trying to add another integrated game ATM might be more than we should try to chew. However, if there is a desire to expand into other games, the seed of modding should probably be planted soon. Lets say the Hive wants to expand to include Heroes of Might and Magic modding, a fairly popular game to mod. The hive should at a subforum for people to share their HoMM projects.

Stand-alone Game Development

I highly support the idea of having the hive support Stand-Alone projects. There should be a subsection dedicated to developing these stand alone games. Subforums should include development for different popular indie game engines, such as Unreal Development Kit and Unity Engine. There people can post their projects as well as tutorials and resources. The hive has a lot of artistic talent, and it would be cool to see them put it to work on developing Indie games.

Basically, the idea with any of these expansions is you have to test these expansions as subforums first, get somthing established there, before integrating it as part of the Hive. At least, thats my two cents.

~Asomath

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

SC2

Will we be able to overtake sc2mapster? Realistically, the answer is no. The posibillity to become a rival force in SC2 modding over the course of the next two expansions is still there, however slim it may be. Since Ralle has already been working on including SC2 in his new Hive version, we might as well have him finish that, give him support in that, and see where it goes. A few factors are still in play that work towards our favor. One, SC2 Mapster is ugly. This might just be for me, but it seems to lack a streamline look. Also, the Art tools and new development tools havent been released yet, so the Hive still has a chance to become a competitor in the artistic side of SC2 modding. This, of course, depends upon the Hive artist's desire to improve upon their own skills.

I will give you some examples:

- Blizzard decided to remove Losses in SC2 for anyone under Master - I was also against it but now I see it is correct, all real gamers would not cry how they don't see it but try to reach Master
- Anyone who focuses on ladder doesn't care what features Bnet 2.0 is lacking as once you get into it, you get used to it - I am not talking about Popularity System but about totally useless things such as 'Appearance' and as you said how the forum there looks ugly

In the same way people at SC2 do not care that the forum doesn't have the beauty of using forum codes properly like VBulletin and basically like THW because I admit it - THW is very tidy when it comes to using its codes.

By being simple and just using texts and pictures, without shiny things and OGARSS and VOID WALKERS or SPAM GOBLIN EMOTICONS - it is MUCH CLEANER and people focus on the actual thing which is the question of the thread and the answers, even the Offtopic forum there talks about mapmaking stuff or gaming stuff which leaves no place to the silly threads emerging here.

And to show you how much of a 'fanboy' of SC2Mapster I am, I once created a thread why is this CRAP coding used by Curse and the way their forum is coded - I had to upgrade my browser, running script caused it to run slowly, Edit doesn't save the previous changes properly, COLOR codes - if you leave some spaces within the text to be coded - many not work properly all because of WikiCRAPole. - Well I don't wanna use Chrome for it which would cause no such problems, I use IE9 but you get the point of THEIR coding you type -- and your whole text becomes like this without you realizing, etc.

But even after making such thread I didn't get trolled or flammed to make a thread pages of trolling and feeding. Make your own conclusions, such things must be happening here because of me, not the community

So my point is - the less 'colorful' and 'shiny' something looks, the better, the more blank it is, the more you focus on the actual thing. So looking ugly but that still makes it times more pro since people focus on the actual things and no one posts Hi I am new!

 

[Asomath]

No no, you're quite right, I'm sure people could easily get used to it. I'm just saying it leaves a lot to be desired in that regard. Specifically what I was talking about it how they organize their assets. The comments and descriptions seem extremely cluttered, and appear to lack good design and organization.

~Asomath

P.S. I've never used a Hive emoticon, so I see your point with that

 

[~Void~]

Isn't wc3c quality > quantity.
I don't call wc3c dead, but it's not really an active forum.

I prefer hive the way it was. A few douchbags here and there doesn't hurt. And even if some people say the moderators behaved bad, then I don't care about it to be honest.
If you keep banning people for small misbehaviour you are killing the social part of this site. Therefor making it just like wc3c. And well I like wc3c because of the nice resources, but the forums are boring in there and nothing happens really.
I was hoping THW and wc3c could be a bit different then eachother in this. But as it goes now THW is becomming like wc3c, killing the social/community part of wc3 modding.

In my opinion this has gone way too far. People are acting very childish on the zero tolerance stuff while on the other hand the changes made by Ralle and TDW aren't good in any way for the site.
I don't want to insult people and start shouting like many people here do, because that's not the way to solve things. I have my opinion, but to get to a solution changes have to be made. I wish hive wouldve stayed the same as a month ago, but be reasonable that's not possible anymore.

I don't have a solution for the situation now.
But I do know that blaming and shouting at the moment doesn't help, it only gets the discussions closed for those that do want to talk in a normal way.

Quite honestly, WC3C is a barren sh*thole due to inactivity and pretentiousness. Quality over quantity? I've hardly ever found anything of use on there. A good modding site must strike a balance between the quality and quantity of its resources.

For instance, time and time again, I've seen 2-P try to start up the weekly terrain threads, and nobody even posts anymore. If anyone does, it's unfinished. I'm sincerely doubtful if WC3C could pull off a yearly terrain thread, much less a weekly one.

Activity is essential for progression in any field; WC3 modding is no exception. There would be no new terrainers, no new mapmakers, no new 3D artists, if the only people making terrain, maps, and models were those who are already experts. It's a basic principle of any skill.

 

[Hemske]

Wc3 is far from dying. It loses users, but I don't believe it will ever die. It is still one of my most played/modded games, and as long as there are people I know who does the same it will never die for me.
Even if it loses a majority of users, there will still be a heap of users who will continue to mod/play it. I mean, I still mod and play homm 2/3 which is from, what, like 1997-1998? I still know there are communities dedicated for this as well.

But, I do believe, if we were to simply erase sites like this due to the slow wither of Wc3's community, then it would definitely help Wc3 die, since we are, after all, a big part of it.

I'd like to add that Hive is used by a lot more people than only wc3modders or Hive users. I've seen stand-alone games using icons from here.
On Playdota.com every person that makes an suggestion on a hero/item use icons from here.
I've seen stand-alone 3D-models inspired by works from here, and we got lots of skilled concept artists/artists here.
So what I am trying to say is, even if wc3 WERE dying, Hive would (and should) continue to exist. And people would still spend time modding and hanging out here.

Now I've derived a bit from the main topic here, which I believe is what we should do to continue expand, rather than just make it survive. But if we only want Hive/wc3 to live, then we don't need to do anything at all. It will.

 

[Crayons]

like I said. Making this site branch out will make it more popular and as popular as before, eventually leading to more trolling and drama.


this site was awesome because it used to act as a modding site and a social network.

you get to sit on your chair, drink your wine, and watch as both artistry (quality mods) and intellectual inability (drama) unfolds in your computo-box.

now we're in a barren desert wherein we have neither.

which means I prefer to have trolling and drama WHILST having modding and artistry.

the two keeps each other in perfect balance and keeps Warcraft 3 modding and gaming in a perfect form of stasis.

 

[~Void~]

like I said. Making this site branch out will make it more popular and as popular as before, eventually leading to more trolling and drama.

Not if a strong team of responsible, active, and professional staff is appointed. How unreasonable can that possibly be? 90% of the drama issues were either started by, circulated among or at least including crappy staff members.

On a semi-related note, I'm all for zero tolerance permanently. You break a rule? You get an infraction. Three strikes in six months and you're out for good. That's the way it's done in my workplace, and hardly anyone stirs up trouble, and everyone gets along pretty well.

Not too hard.

 

[Sephalo]

Not if a strong team of responsible, active, and professional staff is appointed. How unreasonable can that possibly be? 90% of the drama issues were either started by, circulated among or at least including crappy staff members.

On a semi-related note, I'm all for zero tolerance permanently. You break a rule? You get an infraction. Three strikes in six months and you're out for good. That's the way it's done in my workplace, and hardly anyone stirs up trouble, and everyone gets along pretty well.

Not too hard.

Then let me come with an example of music. Think about it.
What if we would have a 'zero tolerance' policy on musicians and their behaviour. I mean... Some musicians are total assholes, but their music is so good that people accept it. I mean... I'm totally against rude people and all, but if they're good then I prefer to just take it.
Musicians 'breaking the rules' .. hmm.. Good artists usually are a bit different, and if we didn't allow anything to happen then think about musicians from the past... All great names like Jimi Hendrix have either a drugs reputation or a bad behaviour reputation.

Ofc this is just an example. But I just try to illustrate that if we wouldn't tolerate anything from artists, we might kill art itself.

 

[Crayons]

Not if a strong team of responsible, active, and professional staff is appointed. How unreasonable can that possibly be? 90% of the drama issues were either started by, circulated among or at least including crappy staff members.

On a semi-related note, I'm all for zero tolerance permanently. You break a rule? You get an infraction. Three strikes in six months and you're out for good. That's the way it's done in my workplace, and hardly anyone stirs up trouble, and everyone gets along pretty well.

Not too hard.

then that will be opposite of an active community that you want!

 

[Karawasa]

Void brings up a good point. Zero tolerance should continue indefinitely. Well, it really should be low tolerance not zero tolerance. Just go look at Team Liquid. You won't find any immature bullshit over there.

 

[Crayons]

Void brings up a good point. Zero tolerance should continue indefinitely. Well, it really should be low tolerance not zero tolerance. Just go look at Team Liquid. You won't find any immature bullshit over there.

comparisons won't work Karawasa.


everybody else has tried.

 

[Karawasa]

comparisons won't work Karawasa.

Are you telling me that the userbase here is just too dumb and immature to pull it off? Otherwise, I fail to see why it wouldn't work.

 

[Asomath]

Perhaps the thought is not that the Hive is not capable of pulling it off, it just needs a more custom-tailored approach to getting there .

~Asomath

 

[Crayons]

Are you telling me that the userbase here is just too dumb and immature to pull it off? Otherwise, I fail to see why it wouldn't work.

well yeah, they are dumb and immature


but i'm saying that continuous comparing of the community to another won't work because most people don't care enough

 

[Ralle]

I don't believe Warcraft will ever die, but it is certainly a niche now. I have been told many times that SC2 is a dead end because of sc2mapster and that modding it just isn't as good.
I have been thinking about branching out to an actual game engine instead of just games, but which one? I would need to do a lot of researching on the topic. I have never used any game engines myself, so I would need to learn about all that stuff to properly support it. The reason why I bring up game engines is because that's basically what WC3 is. I am not sure though, modding WC3 is just very plug and play and with a game engine, you would have to download and install somebody's game and they would need to implement multiplayer etc...
There really doesn't seem to be anything like it.

EDIT: I just realized this was quite off topic, but I will leave it here.

 

[Kitabatake]

I don't believe Warcraft will ever die, but it is certainly a niche now. I have been told many times that SC2 is a dead end because of sc2mapster and that modding it just isn't as good.
I have been thinking about branching out to an actual game engine instead of just games, but which one? I would need to do a lot of researching on the topic. I have never used any game engines myself, so I would need to learn about all that stuff to properly support it. The reason why I bring up game engines is because that's basically what WC3 is. I am not sure though, modding WC3 is just very plug and play and with a game engine, you would have to download and install somebody's game and they would need to implement multiplayer etc...
There really doesn't seem to be anything like it.

EDIT: I just realized this was quite off topic, but I will leave it here.

Yes, warcraft 3 will be played ad infinitum but it would indeed be a refreshing change to cast away the limitations of it's engine and editor.
It might be a good idea to take a look at the free Unity3d engine as it seems very versatile and popular these days, being used for both commercial games and hobby projects.
The UDK engine would be a more powerful option, but it's learning curve and higher amount of work required for completing a project would probably not fit a casual spirited modding community that the Hive happens to be.

 

[~Void~]

I doubt Hive will ever die because of a site with "ster" in the name. Seriously, guys. We've got nothing to worry about.

 

[Karawasa]

Please rename this thread "ignorance is bliss." THW will become obsolete and there is nothing that can be done about it.

Stop dreaming about catching up with SC2Mapster. That isn't happening. Think I'm wrong? Try forming a coherent argument as to how you plan to do so. While you're at getting a rude awakening, stop dreaming about catching up with forums dedicated to game engines.