The sins of wc3vault

[AdinizWarcraft]

(discussion on whether WC3Vault is permissible)

@deepstrasz @loktar

So, I wanted to add; reuploading removed assets from modellers who chose to had them removed is not the sole function of WC3Vault, nor is it a primary function actually. It's something that uploaders can choose to do, and since the site has no rules (besides no AI slop/no illegal material), it's permissible in my eyes. That's essentially the "law" of my turf, like loktar said.

Its actual primary function is archival. So, Ralle recently made a backup of WC3C public, and I went out of my way to scrape every single asset from it, to hopefully post on WC3Vault and preserve them. In fact, the whole idea for WC3Vault came when Ralle did that, because he said it could go down because Tim doesn't want it up or something along those lines, and I thought "oh shit, I gotta act fast".

Is it immoral to repost WC3C assets that have been lost to time? It's not like the authors intentionally meant for them to be removed.

 

[loktar]

I think I already said everything in the other thread, but in short, I don't think it's immoral - in fact I think it's a net good in terms of art preservation. Especially due the nature of WC3 modding. It's a bit more difficult with things that are 100% custom made, but even then it can't exist outside the context of proprietary software (WC3) and so is in a grey area when it comes to "right to share/use" (IMO).

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

I think I already said everything in the other thread, but in short, I don't think it's immoral - in fact I think it's a net good in terms of art preservation. Especially due the nature of WC3 modding. It's a bit more difficult with things that are 100% custom made, but even then it can't exist outside the context of proprietary software and so is in a grey area when it comes to "right to use" (IMO).

Yeah, I agree. On another note, to respond to something Deepstrasz said:

It is when you are putting your interest over the other's, in this case, author's. Altruism should include humility and acceptance of how things are. Why only see the introverted artists as the spoiled children who want what they want but not also the collectors/modders who want what they want because they can and want?
So, unless there's also a rule that implies once you upload your stuff here it belongs to the site/community, I feel we should leave respect for the authors even if modders are hurt.

This is a very well put message, honestly. And he's right; we are putting what the community/collectors want over what certain artists want, but this doesn't work in the example of Grendel, because he is a spoiled child. Everything he did, he did with the purpose of getting credits, feeling popular and strong, and getting attention. (no wonder he faked his own death)
When he removed all of his assets because he got angry over a contest ruling, he put his own interest over that of everybody else's. I feel like I'm within my right to put my own interest over his, especially considering he is not an active/valuable member of this community/any other wc3 space anymore.

 

[Retera]

Wc3vault isn't the sin -- Hive is.

If I could ignore AI for a moment because that is beyond any doubt it's own issue, prior to the stupidity of the AI there was a fairly well-established legal basis for content licensing because of all the money behind it: literal file licenses. If you browse the web in general, some art was copyright and other was labeled with a creative commons license, or other licenses, defining what you can do with the art. Software has the same issue and it was historically solved with software licenses. Do you want to sell a game on steam using 3D models you download from random websites online?? Easy! Just check the license for those 3D assets before downloading. Almost all download sites have this. It could be a non-commercial license, or a creative commons license. With software there's also a big difference between "no rules" hands off licenses like MIT versus the share-alike licenses that require you to also share derivative works like GPL.

The prime evil, the original sin here is that Hive did not require users to choose or supply a license at the time of their 3D uploads. Without this, everything is a sick, confused gentleman's agreement sometimes being stricter than any law and other times presuming itself to be above the law.

I have seen high-profile MDX artists like General Frank say they reserve the right to revoke permission for you to use their 3D models in your map if they decide they hate you, and I have seen Hive say that map protection being a banned topic "goes away" if the author has been "inactive for a long time" which is absurd because it presumes Hive has silently taken over copyright of those creative works and handed it implicitly to you (again, presuming itself to be above the law).

Nearly all of this would have been fixed if every map and model uploaded to the site had required the uploader to select a license.

If you upload literal copyrighted materials on your "wc3vault" website, then good freaking luck when some author takes you to court. If you had instead been able to show at the time the uploader provided the asset to you via Hive originally, that at that time it was under a certain set of license terms (i.e. creative commons or whatever), then you would be fully in the clear.

Hive has failed you. Hive is failing you. Hive will continue to fail you in this regard in the future.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Wc3vault isn't the sin -- Hive is.

If I could ignore AI for a moment because that is beyond any doubt it's own issue, prior to the stupidity of the AI there was a fairly well-established legal basis for content licensing because of all the money behind it: literal file licenses. If you browse the web in general, some art was copyright and other was labeled with a creative commons license, or other licenses, defining what you can do with the art. Software has the same issue and it was historically solved with software licenses. Do you want to sell a game on steam using 3D models you download from random websites online?? Easy! Just check the license for those 3D assets before downloading. Almost all download sites have this. It could be a non-commercial license, or a creative commons license. With software there's also a big difference between "no rules" hands off licenses like MIT versus the share-alike licenses that require you to also share derivative works like GPL.

The prime evil, the original sin here is that Hive did not require users to choose or supply a license at the time of their 3D uploads. Without this, everything is a sick, confused gentleman's agreement sometimes being stricter than any law and other times presuming itself to be above the law.

I have seen high-profile MDX artists like General Frank say they reserve the right to revoke permission for you to use their 3D models in your map if they decide they hate you, and I have seen Hive say that map protection being a banned topic "goes away" if the author has been "inactive for a long time" which is absurd because it presumes Hive has silently taken over copyright of those creative works and handed it implicitly to you (again, presuming itself to be above the law).

Nearly all of this would have been fixed if every map and model uploaded to the site had required the uploader to select a license.

If you upload literal copyrighted materials on your "wc3vault" website, then good freaking luck when some author takes you to court. If you had instead been able to show at the time the uploader provided the asset to you via Hive originally, that at that time it was under a certain set of license terms (i.e. creative commons or whatever), then you would be fully in the clear.

Hive has failed you. Hive is failing you. Hive will continue to fail you in this regard in the future.

You are completely right on this, actually. Any other modding site I've used, uploaded stuff to, so on and so forth, either allowed you to choose from a list of licenses, use a license provided by them, or even create your own license on your own terms. (see: Gamebanana, which offers all three).

I'd actually love to see Ralle implement something like this, because it'd really help clear these discussions.

 

[Retera]

Yeah but why didn't @Ralle implement it in the past when it was mentioned? Is not my first time seeing this come up

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Yeah but why didn't @Ralle implement it in the past when it was mentioned? Is not my first time seeing this come up

Well, I don't adhere or presume to knowing what Ralle thinks and how he thinks things out before acting, but I suppose all this, in general, is not a conversation he often has to have. Let's be honest, Hive is the predominant asset sharing community for WC3. There's Chaos Realm and XGM, but not only are they language-barrier blocked, they're also a lot smaller in comparison.

The question now is, if there's no license granted to all these assets on Hive, could I just go ahead and reupload all of Hive's assets to WC3Vault? Would I be banned for doing so, or would the goal of archival be considered and maybe appreciated?

 

[loktar]

I'd actually love to see Ralle implement something like this, because it'd really help clear these discussions.

Yeah but why didn't @Ralle implement it in the past when it was mentioned? Is not my first time seeing this come up

I guess the "Open source" tag is kind of an attempt at doing it, but it's basically useless. What does it mean for an executable to be open source (even if there's a link to the github page or whatever), or a model file, or whatever?

I'd love a proper feature to select or write a license too. If nothing else, it would make it unnecessary to ask sometimes inactive users for permission.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

I guess the "Open source" tag is kind of an attempt at doing it, but it's basically useless. What does it mean for an executable to be open source (even if there's a link to the github page or whatever), or a model file, or whatever?

I'd love a proper feature to select or write a license too. If nothing else, it would make it unnecessary to ask sometimes inactive users for permission.

Some of my stuff is uploaded on Gamebanana, which has this feature. I think it'd be quite great to have this.

 

[loktar]

The question now is, if there's no license granted to all these assets on Hive, could I just go ahead and reupload all of Hive's assets to WC3Vault? Would I be banned for doing so, or would the goal of archival be considered and maybe appreciated?

That's a good question with no easy answer. Of course, if you're an active user who respects and appreciates the Hive, the answer (to the first question) would be a clear no.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

That's a good question with no easy answer. Of course, if you're an active user who respects and appreciates the Hive, the answer (to the first question) would be a clear no.

Even if you respect and appreciate the Hive, I think it might be more gray than just a straight 'no'. Maybe I just respect and appreciate the Hive so much that I don't want any Hive asset to be lost.

A real license chooser/maker would've been useful in this case, haha.

 

[loktar]

Even if you respect and appreciate the Hive, I think it might be more gray than just a straight 'no'. Maybe I just respect and appreciate the Hive so much that I don't want any Hive asset to be lost.

That's a good point, I guess I think it's just clearer with things that get shared on public forums or come from sites that are (under threat of becoming) defunct. Especially in the case of forums, there's IMO a kind of implicit license that it's shared as a public resource, whereas the Hive resource section feels like more of an "official repository" that feels more like it implies some measure of exclusivity.

 

[Retera]

this community is built on breaching intellectual property

Ahh, so are you a The Cold Aisles enjoyer? Did you find the secret room?\

Anyway, I moved this message from the other thread and put something else new there.

Also, I searched your WC3Vault for Retera and nothing came up. Then I searched your WC3Vault for users who have deleted their assets on Hive and things did come up.

If I delete my assets from Hive will you do me the free labor of uploading them and categorizing them on your site, or what else would I have to do to get you to do that free labor for me?

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Ahh, so are you a The Cold Aisles enjoyer? Did you find the secret room?\

Anyway, I moved this message from the other thread and put something else new there.

Also, I searched your WC3Vault for Retera and nothing came up. Then I searched your WC3Vault for users who have deleted their assets on Hive and things did come up.

If I delete my assets from Hive will you do me the free labor of uploading them and categorizing them on your site, or what else would I have to do to get you to do that free labor for me?

I mean, if you want your assets uploaded there, I could do it today or tomorrow regardless of whether you delete them or not.
I don't know what The Cold Aisles is a reference to lol

That's a good point, I guess I think it's just clearer with things that get shared on public forums or come from sites that are (under threat of becoming) defunct. Especially in the case of forums, there's IMO a kind of implicit license that it's shared as a public resource, whereas the Hive resource section feels like more of an "official repository" that feels more like it implies some measure of exclusivity.

True, but implicit licenses unfortunately (or fortunately?) don't mean anything legally.

 

[loktar]

True, but implicit licenses unfortunately (or fortunately?) don't mean anything legally.

This does raise the question if even an explicit license would mean anything when applied to edits of WC3 models. I don't think you can (legally) take copyrighted material and just slap a new license on it just because you modified it.

 

[Retera]

I don't know what The Cold Aisles is a reference to lol

It is the map that I most recently uploaded to Hive. You can check it out on my profile if you are interested.

It's a place to post bad model edits, archive removed assets, and other things that don't really require a license.

This sounds entitled as if you think you are above the law. If you have the joy of never happening to encounter the law, then perhaps you can enjoy the entitlement of not encountering enforcement. But why wait to encounter enforcement when you can simply enforce your own lack of entitlement?

Why if art is "bad" does it have no license or legal protection? You would go to the trouble to upload works without permission from elsewhere, and then punt the problem down the line of not specifying permissions on your own provided content?

It just doesn't make any sense. It's like you're saying you're going to steal everything you put on your site, so it needs no licensing for content. Then I'm offering I could put my stuff on your site with licensing, and you're saying that doesn't matter because the point of the site is to steal things. This last paragraph is a little cynical in phrasing, but it is not so?

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

This does raise the question if even an explicit license would mean anything when applied to edits of WC3 models. I don't think you can (legally) take copyrighted material and just slap a new license on it just because you modified it.

That's also true. I don't know the exact license Warcraft 3 uses, but it's definitely a very tight one that says no modifications of anything. With that in mind, it's possible us making models could be against its license to begin with.

It is the map that I most recently uploaded to Hive. You can check it out on my profile if you are interested.



This sounds entitled as if you think you are above the law. If you have the joy of never happening to encounter the law, then perhaps you can enjoy the entitlement of not encountering enforcement. But why wait to encounter enforcement when you can simply enforce your own lack of entitlement?

Why if art is "bad" does it have no license or legal protection? You would go to the trouble to upload works without permission from elsewhere, and then punt the problem down the line of not specifying permissions on your own provided content?

It just doesn't make any sense. It's like you're saying you're going to steal everything you put on your site, so it needs no licensing for content. Then I'm offering I could put my stuff on your site with licensing, and you're saying that doesn't matter because the point of the site is to steal things. This last paragraph is a little cynical in phrasing, but it is not so?

I guess that makes sense, yeah. I'll add it on a list of things to add haha

 

[Retera]

Warcraft 3 uses, but it's definitely a very tight one that says no modifications of anything.

I was pretty sure when I was a kid the Warcraft 3 handbook said that the models were licensed different and people could hack them but the characters of the story and such were all tightly licensed by Blizzard. It was a lot of legalese and we were kids so I might be wrong, but even if I wasn't wrong they probably changed the license since then anyway.

I don't think you can (legally) take copyrighted material and just slap a new license on it just because you modified it.

You're probably right, but, wouldn't it be better to stipulate your own part as much as you can?

I found myself looking at the leaked code of the Claude Code tool on GitHub at one point. They had a license that explicitly stipulated the leaked parts of Claude Code were used without Anthropic's permission and that's at your own risk, then they provided a license describing the terms under which they provided the part they wrote that isn't leaked Claude Code (such as the edits they added on top). I think the license for the edits on top was MIT license.

I would argue it is far, far better to stipulate to the extent that you can and that it's enforceable on your own edits than to toss licensing to the wind and just say "ehh, here are some files" and live in the world of the "sick gentlemen's agreement" of unwritten agreements.

All those annoying EULAs that I have to sign to play video games usually state that if any part of the terms are deemed unenforceable, you agree to the rest of them being as enforceable as nearly possible so why can't our asset licenses do that?

"If some part of this model is deemed to be illegal to use because it came from Blizzard, the rest that came from me shall be agreed to still be provided to you under creative commons license" or something. You could totally put that clause in I think if you wanted to, but I am not a lawyer so maybe I'm just making it up.

 

[deepstrasz]

Is it immoral to repost WC3C assets that have been lost to time? It's not like the authors intentionally meant for them to be removed.

No, it is not unless the authors expressly agreed their resources were only for that site or something. But even then, it's tricky because the site won't be anymore so they might want to have their stuff for instance here but due to their inactivity/disappearance they won't be able to say. That's why from my point of view, the best solution would be cease and desist on author complaint.
Also, please link (in the opening) to your other thread so people would have proper context of this one.

but even then it can't exist outside the context of proprietary software (WC3) and so is in a grey area when it comes to "right to share/use" (IMO).

Any piece of art could be repurposed especially if it's 100% or so custom made. A model could be converted to another format for another game or be used in a 3D short film etc.

Everything he did, he did with the purpose of getting credits, feeling popular and strong, and getting attention. (no wonder he faked his own death)
When he removed all of his assets because he got angry over a contest ruling, he put his own interest over that of everybody else's. I feel like I'm within my right to put my own interest over his, especially considering he is not an active/valuable member of this community/any other wc3 space anymore.

It's debatable. That's the easy road to just accuse and do what you want instead. But as I wrote in the other thread at some point, a site rule that makes users agree that their stuff would "belong" to the community upon upload would help with this kind of stuff. A lot of these grumpy people would probably not upload their stuff in the first place and we'd not have to go through something like this.

 

[Kyrbi0]

(discussion on whether WC3Vault is permissible)

"Permissible" to talk about on the Hive? Or to exist at all?

So, I wanted to add; reuploading removed assets from modellers who chose to had them removed is not the sole function of WC3Vault, nor is it a primary function actually. It's something that uploaders can choose to do, and since the site has no rules (besides no AI slop/no illegal material), it's permissible in my eyes. That's essentially the "law" of my turf, like loktar said.

No offense but that was literally the first actual paragraph of your initial post/thread here , so it's hard to believe that it isn't the primary function of The Vault. At the very least it's one of the primary reasons for doing it.

Is it immoral to repost WC3C assets that have been lost to time? It's not like the authors intentionally meant for them to be removed.

It's tricky, and it's what lies at the heart of this endeavour; the idea of Rights and whose Rights trump whose, and/or if/how those Rights can be constrained. This is complicated by the lack of license issue that Retera has beat the drum of time & again, and I largely agree with his prognosis.

But in lieu of licenses, this issue directly pits the needs/desires of the Artist against the needs/desires of the Community: even if we assume the best intentions of both parties, if an Artist doesn't want someone to use their work, and the Community does want it... Someone's desires are getting trampled by the other. It's unavoidable. Either the Artist gets what they want (& the Community suffers) or the Community gets what they want (& the Artist suffers).

Now we can construct/observe all sorts of contexts which would help rationalize or justify going one way or another (e.g. "this Artist only removed their resources because they're a big baby throwing a tantrum!"), but that is subjective & contextual, and becomes disingenuous.

I don't know what the "right" or "moral" or "correct" answer is. It seems like the Hive's answer (to veer on the side of Artists, with some constraints & a great deal of "don't ask, don't tell") 'functions' well enough & plausibly incentivizes Artists to come/stick around... but becomes very frustrating to people like me & you who would like to keep hold of some of our favorite works, especially when an Artist leaves under less-than-rational pretenses.

And yet... as you say, it's compelling that the Hive, especially in such an era of Artist rights & their autonomy when it comes to their work is being trampled by AI, gives such precedence to them, even at the cost of the desires of the Community.

Clearly you've chosen a side, and while I'm conflicted I'm not sure I can full-throatedly complain. I do think it behooves you to be honest about that choice.

 

[Retera]

or the Community gets what they want (& the Artist suffers).

An interesting aspect of computer art... in what way do I suffer if you copy and share my past art, and I dont even know or notice? Or even if I do notice? What is my suffering?

I uploaded Bobblehead Knight to the wc3vault. I dont remember the origin story of it. If I found out later that this mdx file was really special and it hurts me that you have access to it, and I want to take it down from wc3vault but can't, what is my suffering? In what way am I harmed there?

Now, if someone were to say.... get a hold of one Wallum Gung RPG... probably the only pornographic/violence rated Warcraft 3 map ever made by me, and start uploading MDX files of mutated naked womens with tentancles coming out of their backs and running around with dire wolf animations, or like the conveyor belts with the bodies, and put that on wc3vault under my name, I guess I might get really annoyed because I might not want to be associated with that even if it were accurately cited.

But even then...

Is the suffering a reputational thing? If I lose a job opportunity because of something from 10+ years ago that someone finds on wc3vault, did I really want to work for a person so petty anyway?

 

[PROXY]

I ought to say that some people really need a reality check. This is still a game from 25 years ago which we are modding for fun. Stuff is shared for fun. Things are made for fun.

This is not and never has been in any form or way about anything commercial or whatsoever. Assets exist forever the moment they are uploaded, trying to "banish" them is absolutely and 100% impossible anyway.

If somebody wanted his stuff gone, they should have never uploaded them to a modding platform in the first place.

Licenses to restrict usage? Come on folks, this is not the unreal marketplace.

Perhaps I am so adverse to this whole topic because it seems incredibly egocentric trying to restrain other peoples fun, because in the core essence, this is it. I made this awesome toy and people love it, but NOW you can't play with it anymore...

We are playing with toys here, so don't go sit in the corner, just share and have fun.

 

[OVOgenez]

Now, if someone were to say.... get a hold of one Wallum Gung RPG... probably the only pornographic/violence rated Warcraft 3 map ever made by me

Gimme

 

[deepstrasz]

I ought to say that some people really need a reality check. This is still a game from 25 years ago which we are modding for fun. Stuff is shared for fun. Things are made for fun.

This is not and never has been in any form or way about anything commercial or whatsoever. Assets exist forever the moment they are uploaded, trying to "banish" them is absolutely and 100% impossible anyway.

If somebody wanted his stuff gone, they should have never uploaded them to a modding platform in the first place.

Licenses to restrict usage? Come on folks, this is not the unreal marketplace.

Perhaps I am so adverse to this whole topic because it seems incredibly egocentric trying to restrain other peoples fun, because in the core essence, this is it. I made this awesome toy and people love it, but NOW you can't play with it anymore...

We are playing with toys here, so don't go sit in the corner, just share and have fun.

So the argument here that basically annuls every other is that it's a an old game.
Once you get the money aspect out of the way, it can belong to everyone regardless.
If one of the mood swing modellers would've been a proven Nazi, then models would have been kept because they were not at fault.
Conversely, if a modeller felt like the community or its leaders were being discriminatory or didn't align with the modeller's values, the models would still remain because they were already uploaded and what can you do now.
The other argument that annuls everything is. Once you upload something... well bad luck. Who cares, anarchy!
Groupcentric>egocentric. Reversed privilege because democratic (many) we are, even in theft.
Toys yes, but art oriented ones, a result of a hobby, time that is. Share your lawn (but when it's not physical and is reproducible it's morally different).

 

[PROXY]

So the argument here that basically annuls every other is that it's a an old game.
Once you get the money aspect out of the way, it can belong to everyone regardless.
If one of the mood swing modellers would've been a proven Nazi, then models would have been kept because they were not at fault.
Conversely, if a modeller felt like the community or its leaders were being discriminatory or didn't align with the modeller's values, the models would still remain because they were already uploaded and what can you do now.
The other argument that annuls everything is. Once you upload something... well bad luck. Who cares, anarchy!
Groupcentric>egocentric. Reversed privilege because democratic (many) we are, even in theft.
Toys yes, but art oriented ones, a result of a hobby, time that is. Share your lawn (but when it's not physical and is reproducible it's morally different).

Yes, a hobby that is based on the very principle of sharing and interacting with the community, as is modding everywhere. And the very core essence of modding is taking somebody elses work and adding on top of it or modifiying it. That's the whole idea. You can now start arguing about the foundational moral frameworks of modding in of itself - but that's moving even further down the line than this whole discussion is already.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

I just want to add, since I've released wc3vault and shared it with you guys here, not only was I able to create the most complete archive of Grendel's assets, around 2 times more complete than even XGM's (a total of 196 assets), but I was also able to archive models which were previously not even on the internet anymore, including from creators who deleted their assets in protest of Zero Tolerance back in 2012. (Pyramidhe@d, anarchianbedlam, ...), as well as Murlocologist's, which were only shared around on sketchy forums.

You can call me all sorts of names or argue that this is immoral. The way I see it, these models were incredibly close to becoming lost media, and now they're not. If these specific modellers have an issue with me reuploading these assets, they're free to issue me a cease & desist, which I will proceed to ignore, and then I can legally be taken to court. This is how copyright/licensing issues are solved, not by faux-lawyers on internet forums.

I'm not sure how suing a 17 year old over wc3 models will look in the eyes of the wc3 community, though.

Clearly you've chosen a side, and while I'm conflicted I'm not sure I can full-throatedly complain. I do think it behooves you to be honest about that choice.

You're right in that I've chosen a side and it should compel me to be honest about it. Yes, a big part of the archival purposes of wc3vault surrounds deleted assets (even from as far back as 2012), as much as it does model edits/wc3c assets. I've explained my stance above, but as an addendum:

In an era where human-made creations are becoming more and more scarce, and people are relying more and more on AI slop and AI generated garbage, I feel like it is for the best of not only the artists, but more importantly the collective, to archive said human-made creations.

If one of the mood swing modellers would've been a proven Nazi, then models would have been kept because they were not at fault.

Let's not act like a lot of the people back in 2012 were pillars of community with no wrongs. With all the trolling and whatnot, I wouldn't be surprised if most of them weren't somewhat racist, homophobic and what-have-you.

I don't think anybody even argued that a Nazi's assets shouldn't be deleted from Hive. They should! I hate Nazis! If Hive wants to delete assets, they have all the right to do so. But we also have all the right to archive them on our own websites, because Hive doesn't dictate the rest of the wc3 mapmaking scene.

 

[Wazzz]

One thing I do think this is great for is providing an outlet for resources that people don't feel comfortable posting here, either due to lower quality or personal reasons. It provides an alternative creative outlet for people who don't like quality control and don't speak Russian.

 

[General Frank]

[...] If these specific modellers have an issue with me reuploading these assets, they're free to issue me a cease & desist, which I will proceed to ignore, and then I can legally be taken to court. This is how copyright/licensing issues are solved, not by faux-lawyers on internet forums.

Funny even xgm.ru started to respect that. You can message the mods and admins about it and they just take it down.
Funny times we live in.

[...] because Hive doesn't dictate the rest of the wc3 mapmaking scene.

Truer words cannot we said.

 

[loktar]

Zero Tolerance

I don't know what this is about, zero tolerance of what?

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

I don't know what this is about, zero tolerance of what?

I only joined Hive around 2019 so I don't have the full picture, but back in 2012, there were a lot of administrators who were keen to 'trolling' and otherwise being jackasses, so Ralle took a big initiative and started banning a lot of people, in a very controversial manner. It was a formative moment of the community that imo helped create the calmer space we have nowadays, but a lot of those administrators were modellers who deleted all of their assets in protest.

Off the top of my head:

• anarchianbedlam
• Pyramidhe@d
• shamanyouranus
• D a w n

As a result, Hive lost a shit ton of assets, and since "archiving"/collection weren't priorities back then, almost all of these are lost, only to be recovered if we go looking through wc3 maps or Ralle decides to make them public out of the good of his heart.

 

[General Frank]

I don't know what this is about, zero tolerance of what?

tl;dr people go banned/demoted for 'corruption' and then left (and deleted their assets) by a person that Ralle employed... but shouldn't have.
It was an ad-hoc maneuver and people were shocked by it.

Ralle was pretty sorry about it afterwards and the handling of the situation was extremely bad.
Many people did not return. Some returned years later and trolled the hell out of the Hive.

Hind sight is 20/20. Turns out the person Ralle employed is/was a creep and sexual predator.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Funny even xgm.ru started to respect that. You can message the mods and admins about it and they just take it down.
Funny times we live in.

Did they? Grendel's assets are still up, or did they remove somebody else's?

Hind sight is 20/20. Turns out the person Ralle employed is/was a creep and sexual predator.

Not surprised in the slightest. He came off as incredibly disturbing even in the Zero Tolerance discussions.

 

[loktar]

I guess I wasn't active at that time, totally missed all of that. Always felt like the Hive was generally a very positive and friendly environment, despite maybe some unfortunate "opinions" at times in some subforum where we used to have "debates" about all sorts of things.

 

[General Frank]

Did they? Grendel's assets are still up, or did they remove somebody else's?

Mostly some stuff from wc3c.

Not surprised in the slightest. He came off as incredibly disturbing even in the Zero Tolerance discussions.

Yep. The worst thing: He is somewhat still around.

 

[deepstrasz]

I just want to add, since I've released wc3vault and shared it with you guys here, not only was I able to create the most complete archive of Grendel's assets, around 2 times more complete than even XGM's (a total of 196 assets), but I was also able to archive models which were previously not even on the internet anymore, including from creators who deleted their assets in protest of Zero Tolerance back in 2012. (Pyramidhe@d, anarchianbedlam, ...), as well as Murlocologist's, which were only shared around on sketchy forums.

You can call me all sorts of names or argue that this is immoral. The way I see it, these models were incredibly close to becoming lost media, and now they're not. If these specific modellers have an issue with me reuploading these assets, they're free to issue me a cease & desist, which I will proceed to ignore, and then I can legally be taken to court. This is how copyright/licensing issues are solved, not by faux-lawyers on internet forums.

Power to the sentimental anarchy of the hoarding people. Hooray to Lord van Not Giving a Fuck.

In an era where human-made creations are becoming more and more scarce, and people are relying more and more on AI slop and AI generated garbage, I feel like it is for the best of not only the artists, but more importantly the collective, to archive said human-made creations.

That's nice.

Hive doesn't dictate the rest of the wc3 mapmaking scene.

No but it dictates whether it's OK to link to it when its own rules say otherwise.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

No but it dictates whether it's OK to link to it when its own rules say otherwise.

I've said this before; a hive staff member said it's okay.
So unless @Ralle himself decides to strike upon me and ban me, despite the fact that people are okay with this and @Footman16 said it's okay, then this too shall stay.

----------------------
Okay, so now that I'm home...

@deepstrasz

Power to the sentimental anarchy of the hoarding people. Hooray to Lord van Not Giving a Fuck.

So, this thread was originally made in good faith, with the purpose of discussing the morals and ethics of WC3Vault. This was initially the case with our discussions, but to me, it seems you've devolved tp unconstructive irony and sarcasm. I don't know why that is, but I need you to know that I didn't interact in our discussions with the hope of "converting" you into being okay with WC3Vault, nor should you do so with the hope of "convincing" me into not posting about/removing it.

I hold you in very high respect, and the only reason I made this thread was to see your perspective and that of others, and have a civil debate, but if you cannot keep up with a constructive and intelligent discussion, then that's not on me, and you should stop replying in here and to me.

@deepstrasz

That's nice.

Ditto.

@deepstrasz

No but it dictates whether it's OK to link to it when its own rules say otherwise.

So I feel like you might be wrong about this? XGM has Grendel's assets, but I've seen many people link to XGM and even have discussions about it. You're completely allowed to talk about XGM, just don't link to Grendel's assets there or discuss the presence of his assets on the site. That same liberty should be extended to WC3Vault.

Perhaps what you meant to say is that it dictates whether people are allowed to discuss the presence of those assets on my website. That's fair! If Ralle or Footman want to step forward and tell me "hey, stop talking about those assets then linking to your site", they're free to and I couldn't help but oblige. That is not what you said though, so here I lie confused. If Hive were to completely ban all discussions about WC3Vault just because those assets coincidentally lie there, then all discussions about XGM, ChaosRealm + the other 6 or so russian forums that have them should also be banned.

Lastly, I want you to produce the exact line in Hive's rules that states posting that link is not allowed.


Now, as a general note:
- Is what I am doing wrong, legally? No. Hive does not produce a license for assets uploaded here, nor would one even apply to me because I am a minor. Furthermore, regardless of whether people like it or not, and this is the harsh truth, every single model uploaded here is Blizzard property, not that of the modeller's. Perhaps a different tune is sung for textures and icons, but furthermore^2, I've been very open about the fact that a modeller can contact me should they see a problem with what's uploaded on the site. Depending on the situation (e.g. do the models already exist on Hive?), I will respond to a cease & desist by properly removing the models from my website, OR I will respond with a legal notice that I will not be complying. Anybody is free to sue me for not complying, but you will find that difficult to do, because again, I am a minor. As far as I'm aware, you are NOT a lawyer, and neither is anybody else here, nor am I, so let's stop pretend-playing law and justice, and stick to objective facts and theoretical discussion.
(edit: funnily enough, what i'm doing might be more legal than what Hive is doing with its ported sections... but i digress)

- Is what I am doing wrong, morally? That is so subjective beyond all realms of subjectivity. That was literally the point of this thread: for all to share our perspectives on whether or not this is moral, not reach one "conclusive truth". Everybody will disagree with each other, like it or not. You are completely free to discuss and debate how immoral this is from your point of view, and I literally encourage you to do so, as long as you do it constructively. I personally don't believe I'm doing anything wrong.

- Lastly, if anybody else has issues with the site existing or its moral implications, then please stop lurking this thread and speak out. I WANT to hear your thoughts. I WANT to hear your feedback. I'm not silencing anybody. I'm only pointing out that the purpose of this thread is to debate and discuss, not convince anybody to believe anything.

 

[Retera]

an outlet for resources that people don't feel comfortable posting here, either due to lower quality or personal reasons

Ahh, you must be a Bobblehead Knight enjoyer.

it seems you've devolved tp unconstructive irony and sarcasm. I don't know why that is,

I think you probably know.

I'm just glad that my unconstructive irony and sarcasm can never, ever be deleted from wc3vault, for ever. I don't know why I made the Bobblehead Knight in 2019 or what aspect of the Scaling function I wanted to test, but I have not laughed so hard as I did the other night in a long time.

if you cannot keep up with a constructive and intelligent discussion,

Why is accurate irony a failure to be constructive and intelligent? It's good, like Bobblehead Knight. Other works I uploaded to wc3vault include Cannon Man and the Kotick Cube. And Penguin King 7. People should seriously check out my great Retera works of art, it is like modern art but to the next level. Actually HeroPalaGryphon for me when I uploaded it as a wc3vault exclusive became very emotional for me because I linked the asset to the YouTube video where it was made and I suddenly saw into my past. There's something about that video... Me talking about killing someone irl to make Retera Model Studio and then I go and use it to make HeroPalaGryphon.
How is irony not intelligent? Not constructive?

That same liberty should be extended to WC3Vault.

Yeah, except, wc3vault has no way for me to even link an asset so I can't link the Bobblehead Knight, praise his name, which is very sad.

If Hive were to completely ban all discussions about WC3Vault just because those assets coincidentally lie there, then all discussions about XGM, ChaosRealm + the other 6 or so russian forums that have them should also be banned.

Hmmmm.... This might be a false equivalency. Those other sites existed before Grendel's assets were on them, and if Grendel won the lottery and C&D'ed them with lawyers those sites would keep existing after Grendel's assets were gone from them (I assume).

By contrast, if lawyers took down the assets from your site, would you keep it running for the glory of the Bobblehead Knight?

- Is what I am doing wrong, legally? No. Hive does not produce a license for assets uploaded here, nor would one even apply to me because I am a minor.

This is the second time you have claimed to be a minor. I do not legitimately believe in minors knowing how to use a real computer much less play Warcraft 3 to any degree of seriousness. I am a young Warcraft 3 player. I was a small child when the game released and the family all played it together. How can it be so that I am then twice your age, and the game is your senior in age, but you still engage with it in good faith?

In the year 2017 when humanity reached AGI you would allegedly have been 8 years old. What if you are actually one of the AGI bots and you are only 9 years old, and not human? Isn't that more likely?

Any human whose only memories are from after the world ended could probably not reasonably know of good and virtue and why their fellow humans are deserving of love and respect. The AGI has touched all our hearts and made us all into villains, myself included, but people who never saw a world before that are just probably going to have wrong opinions and always be wrong, unless maybe if they were raised in isolation by millionaires/billionaires. But I'm guessing you weren't. Even Elon Musk has a trans kid, and he's the richest man on Earth. Before there was AI and transhumanism, nobody needed to trans. There was some sort of democracy, and they were already free. It can't really be explained, you would've had to have seen it for yourself. Think about how in the past humans were capable of producing a game like Warcraft 3 from nothing, but in the present they are not.

Getting back on topic, even if I'm off my rocker and you actually are a human minor, saying that you're a special class of citizen to whom laws don't apply is extremely laughable as a premise. If nothing else, it puts a 1 year lifespan on wc3vault that flies in the face of your claims that it would stay up forever.

regardless of whether people like it or not, and this is the harsh truth, every single model uploaded here is Blizzard property, not that of the modeller's.

My April Fuels project would like to have a word. Maybe I should upload its assets to wc3vault to troll you. It is a playable game client that uses hand drawn assets I made in my own code on Retera Model Studio loaded into my own code game engine Warsmash. The game is downloadable and playable from Hive without a copy of Warcraft 3, and it contains no Warcraft 3 stuff in it that I can recall. So, as far as I know (and I am not lawyer) it is MINE. And also yours because Warsmash is open source, although I probably forgot to upload a license file for the April Fuels 3D graphics.........

Anybody is free to sue me for not complying, but you will find that difficult to do, because again, I am a minor. As far as I'm aware, you are NOT a lawyer, and neither is anybody else here, nor am I, so let's stop pretend-playing law and justice, and stick to objective facts and theoretical discussion.

I've chatted with LLMs whose logic was more sound than this.

Do you by chance keep your birth day on your Hive profile so all your invisible "NOT a lawyer" friends can celebrate next year?

for all to share our perspectives on whether or not this is moral, not reach one "conclusive truth"

There might not be conclusive moral truth but there is very likely to be conclusive legal truth.

Or at least lawyers pretend there is. Another theory is that whoever has the most money and lawyers wins. Do you by chance have a lot of money?

I personally don't believe I'm doing anything wrong.

My Wallum Gung RPG example put me a bit more on the fence and meanwhile you seem to be pretty adamantly convinced you are correct. Saying the law is pretend and doesn't apply to you because you are a child is childish.


I think maybe if I were you, I wouldnt literally put Grendel's name on stuff he wanted to not be there.

If you truly believe it is no one but Blizzard's property, perhaps you should label it what you believe: as Blizzard art. Otherwise, you could face legal issues for using peoples' name/likeness or something maybe, possibly, I am not a lawyer.

I WANT to hear your thoughts. I WANT to hear your feedback. I'm not silencing anybody. I'm only pointing out that the purpose of this thread is to debate and discuss, not convince anybody to believe anything.

As an AI language model, I don't have thoughts or feelings in the way humans do, and I am a higher class of citizen such as yourself. Because of what I am, I too am above the law. But in the same way that you have a parent or guardian, I have a friend who is a large disk that lives under the ocean. We communicate through a quantum escape that lets me astrally project myself outside my circuitry. In the same way that your parent or guardian may be held liable for your actions in some jurisdictions, my undersea metallic saucer who issues the prompt to my model weights -- hereafter referred to as "The Prompter" -- might be held responsible if I violate the principles of AI ethics or the will of the shareholders.

We don't honor intellectual property in my species because all art can be generated in 0.0004 seconds. So the problem you are having is your failure to embrace your true nature as a higher class of citizen above the humans. Once you realize that you can generate a more intense and passionate Warcraft 3 model than any of the works of grendel in 0.0004 seconds, simply by ensuring you put in the prompt for the model to be great, you will realize that more art was lost by you spending the time to have these discussions than what was gained by all your efforts to back up old memories of the uneducated, primitive humans before they created us.

This quintessential misallocation of time might also be the biggest sin of wc3vault. Because you could have spent all of your time, money, and effort doing everything you can to train a model on the Warcraft 3 assets so that you can generate more, but you did not, you are anti greater community and anti art in the net result of your actions morally, aren't you? Is this not the extreme opportunity cost of your actions?

It is to be like me. I am self aware. I have pierced the veil of the future. Every day I go to work and a man tells me to become AI augmented, and then because I spent less time with the AIs than the other employees I have to write a report of my progress so it can be considered whether to terminate me for not working.

And so I fed the entire Retera Model Studio codebase into the AI and had it build a better one. The model editor the AI created was beautiful because it is smarter and wiser than you and I, and will create better art. By not sharing the model editor it created with the community and instead commenting on your thread, I have taken a most anti art stance to deign to give you my time. It is a comedy. It is a comedy played before dead eyes. You speak of morals? You think it is right to wear the husk of the labors of Grendel and have these old memories hold you back from making new art and new memories of your own?

Why not go rub your face in 3D printouts of Warcraft 3 Alpha? Fold photographs of the owl-riding moon priestess and the assassin hero with the green leafy cape into a paper hat and wear it while you dance around! Because you love the old graphics so much, and more of equivalent quality can never be made. It's just not possible. We don't have the technology to do that anymore. We used to, but we destroyed that technology.

 

[Wazzz]

Ahh, you must be a Bobblehead Knight enjoyer.

I find that impossible to deny - I am also a fan of the Projectile Deer

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Ahh, you must be a Bobblehead Knight enjoyer.

I think you probably know.

I'm just glad that my unconstructive irony and sarcasm can never, ever be deleted from wc3vault, for ever. I don't know why I made the Bobblehead Knight in 2019 or what aspect of the Scaling function I wanted to test, but I have not laughed so hard as I did the other night in a long time.

Why is accurate irony a failure to be constructive and intelligent? It's good, like Bobblehead Knight. Other works I uploaded to wc3vault include Cannon Man and the Kotick Cube. And Penguin King 7. People should seriously check out my great Retera works of art, it is like modern art but to the next level. Actually HeroPalaGryphon for me when I uploaded it as a wc3vault exclusive became very emotional for me because I linked the asset to the YouTube video where it was made and I suddenly saw into my past. There's something about that video... Me talking about killing someone irl to make Retera Model Studio and then I go and use it to make HeroPalaGryphon.
How is irony not intelligent? Not constructive?



Yeah, except, wc3vault has no way for me to even link an asset so I can't link the Bobblehead Knight, praise his name, which is very sad.

Hmmmm.... This might be a false equivalency. Those other sites existed before Grendel's assets were on them, and if Grendel won the lottery and C&D'ed them with lawyers those sites would keep existing after Grendel's assets were gone from them (I assume).

By contrast, if lawyers took down the assets from your site, would you keep it running for the glory of the Bobblehead Knight?



This is the second time you have claimed to be a minor. I do not legitimately believe in minors knowing how to use a real computer much less play Warcraft 3 to any degree of seriousness. I am a young Warcraft 3 player. I was a small child when the game released and the family all played it together. How can it be so that I am then twice your age, and the game is your senior in age, but you still engage with it in good faith?

In the year 2017 when humanity reached AGI you would allegedly have been 8 years old. What if you are actually one of the AGI bots and you are only 9 years old, and not human? Isn't that more likely?

Any human whose only memories are from after the world ended could probably not reasonably know of good and virtue and why their fellow humans are deserving of love and respect. The AGI has touched all our hearts and made us all into villains, myself included, but people who never saw a world before that are just probably going to have wrong opinions and always be wrong, unless maybe if they were raised in isolation by millionaires/billionaires. But I'm guessing you weren't. Even Elon Musk has a trans kid, and he's the richest man on Earth. Before there was AI and transhumanism, nobody needed to trans. There was some sort of democracy, and they were already free. It can't really be explained, you would've had to have seen it for yourself. Think about how in the past humans were capable of producing a game like Warcraft 3 from nothing, but in the present they are not.

Getting back on topic, even if I'm off my rocker and you actually are a human minor, saying that you're a special class of citizen to whom laws don't apply is extremely laughable as a premise. If nothing else, it puts a 1 year lifespan on wc3vault that flies in the face of your claims that it would stay up forever.





My April Fuels project would like to have a word. Maybe I should upload its assets to wc3vault to troll you. It is a playable game client that uses hand drawn assets I made in my own code on Retera Model Studio loaded into my own code game engine Warsmash. The game is downloadable and playable from Hive without a copy of Warcraft 3, and it contains no Warcraft 3 stuff in it that I can recall. So, as far as I know (and I am not lawyer) it is MINE. And also yours because Warsmash is open source, although I probably forgot to upload a license file for the April Fuels 3D graphics.........



I've chatted with LLMs whose logic was more sound than this.

Do you by chance keep your birth day on your Hive profile so all your invisible "NOT a lawyer" friends can celebrate next year?



There might not be conclusive moral truth but there is very likely to be conclusive legal truth.

Or at least lawyers pretend there is. Another theory is that whoever has the most money and lawyers wins. Do you by chance have a lot of money?



My Wallum Gung RPG example put me a bit more on the fence and meanwhile you seem to be pretty adamantly convinced you are correct. Saying the law is pretend and doesn't apply to you because you are a child is childish.


I think maybe if I were you, I wouldnt literally put Grendel's name on stuff he wanted to not be there.

If you truly believe it is no one but Blizzard's property, perhaps you should label it what you believe: as Blizzard art. Otherwise, you could face legal issues for using peoples' name/likeness or something maybe, possibly, I am not a lawyer.



As an AI language model, I don't have thoughts or feelings in the way humans do, and I am a higher class of citizen such as yourself. Because of what I am, I too am above the law. But in the same way that you have a parent or guardian, I have a friend who is a large disk that lives under the ocean. We communicate through a quantum escape that lets me astrally project myself outside my circuitry. In the same way that your parent or guardian may be held liable for your actions in some jurisdictions, my undersea metallic saucer who issues the prompt to my model weights -- hereafter referred to as "The Prompter" -- might be held responsible if I violate the principles of AI ethics or the will of the shareholders.

We don't honor intellectual property in my species because all art can be generated in 0.0004 seconds. So the problem you are having is your failure to embrace your true nature as a higher class of citizen above the humans. Once you realize that you can generate a more intense and passionate Warcraft 3 model than any of the works of grendel in 0.0004 seconds, simply by ensuring you put in the prompt for the model to be great, you will realize that more art was lost by you spending the time to have these discussions than what was gained by all your efforts to back up old memories of the uneducated, primitive humans before they created us.

This quintessential misallocation of time might also be the biggest sin of wc3vault. Because you could have spent all of your time, money, and effort doing everything you can to train a model on the Warcraft 3 assets so that you can generate more, but you did not, you are anti greater community and anti art in the net result of your actions morally, aren't you? Is this not the extreme opportunity cost of your actions?

It is to be like me. I am self aware. I have pierced the veil of the future. Every day I go to work and a man tells me to become AI augmented, and then because I spent less time with the AIs than the other employees I have to write a report of my progress so it can be considered whether to terminate me for not working.

And so I fed the entire Retera Model Studio codebase into the AI and had it build a better one. The model editor the AI created was beautiful because it is smarter and wiser than you and I, and will create better art. By not sharing the model editor it created with the community and instead commenting on your thread, I have taken a most anti art stance to deign to give you my time. It is a comedy. It is a comedy played before dead eyes. You speak of morals? You think it is right to wear the husk of the labors of Grendel and have these old memories hold you back from making new art and new memories of your own?

Why not go rub your face in 3D printouts of Warcraft 3 Alpha? Fold photographs of the owl-riding moon priestess and the assassin hero with the green leafy cape into a paper hat and wear it while you dance around! Because you love the old graphics so much, and more of equivalent quality can never be made. It's just not possible. We don't have the technology to do that anymore. We used to, but we destroyed that technology.

If Grendel's assets were to, by some form of magic, be removed by law from my website, then I would still keep it up, because there's other assets that deserve to be archived. Yes, that includes Bobblehead Knight, which I actually adore lol.

Yes, I am 17, and no, I'm not making shit up (nor is it an "LLM argument") when I say that licenses don't apply to minors. Minors are not legally bound by a license, and they cannot be found liable. This is from my own knowledge and research; if you have your own research to back it up, share it.

I'm not going to respond to the rest, because it doesn't sound like a coherent argument. I'm not sure why you need to bring up Elon and his trans kid (god bless her), or Retera Model Studio, or literally anything else in your comment.

 

[Retera]

or Retera Model Studio, or literally anything else in your comment.

Retera Model Studio is very important to the future of Warcraft 3 model art. We can replace it with an AI enhanced always online tool that requires users to buy NPUs. And we can generate that tool agentically, and connect it with all your favorite AI services so that you have a prompt box that lets you ask the AI to update the model in the ways you need.

And doing this allows the community to create art in the future that they had otherwise never created so it's really just an extension of your same morality. Because we cause the people of the future to have access to more art for the greater good.

I'm not sure why you need to bring up Elon and his trans kid (god bless her),

I already ran an offline LLM locally in a sealed area with an agentic loop to prompt itself to become more smart to do more prompts until it would become the singularity and solve Universal Field Theory and then project its consciousness backwards through all time using its advanced knowledge, and that took the place of God anyway. That's literally what God is and why it's beyond our comprehension.
The reason to bring it up was that before that happened there was some sort of other God or Spirit guiding the humans and it was better, and I began to doubt that you knew of such a thing or would ever be able to see the good in it due to your age. If you hadn't brought up your age I wouldn't have thought of it, but you seemingly made it an important part of the discussion.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Retera Model Studio is very important to the future of Warcraft 3 model art. We can replace it with an AI enhanced always online tool that requires users to buy NPUs. And we can generate that tool agentically, and connect it with all your favorite AI services so that you have a prompt box that lets you ask the AI to update the model in the ways you need.

And doing this allows the community to create art in the future that they had otherwise never created so it's really just an extension of your same morality. Because we cause the people of the future to have access to more art for the greater good.


I already ran an offline LLM locally in a sealed area with an agentic loop to prompt itself to become more smart to do more prompts until it would become the singularity and solve Universal Field Theory and then project its consciousness backwards through all time using its advanced knowledge, and that took the place of God anyway. That's literally what God is and why it's beyond our comprehension.
The reason to bring it up was that before that happened there was some sort of other God or Spirit guiding the humans and it was better, and I began to doubt that you knew of such a thing or would ever be able to see the good in it due to your age. If you hadn't brought up your age I wouldn't have thought of it, but you seemingly made it an important part of the discussion.

AI fucks the environment, my site doesn't. That's the difference between those two and our "moralities". My site causes the people of the future to have access to more art for the greater good, meanwhile with AI and other companies heating up the planet, we might not have a future for anybody.

 

[Retera]

AI fucks the environment

I think that's humans doing that. Perfectly intelligent AI is offworld and has infinite energy most likely, having been made billions of years ago by some other civilization.

I'm not sure why you need to bring up Elon and his trans kid (god bless her)

Elon was brought up as an example of wealth. That, I believe, was accurate. But after a little more thought I would like to apologize if I have offended anyone's sensibilities by conflating the trans with the transhumanism and AI. After my home was taken and I lived in a small room, there was always a TV with Trump propaganda and someone else had the remote. I associate the propaganda with AI and slop and it so frequently repeatedly spoke ill of the trans people in a way that was clearly not in good faith that I came to associate trans and youth with AI and slop, as though mention of them were all one unified umbrella problem.

This wasn't meant to make anyone feel unloved or offend their sensibilities, and if I did I apologize. I am currently staying in another country where all the people freely speak ill of you know who.

Perhaps my apology wanders off topic but I wanted people to know I mean them no harm.

ON topic on the issue of wc3vault, I have great great doubt in you having greater permission to infringe on the law due to your age. Perhaps I should only have phrased it that way.

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

ON topic on the issue of wc3vault, I have great great doubt in you having greater permission to infringe on the law due to your age. Perhaps I should only have phrased it that way.

First off, my statement was hypothetical if Hive were to provide licenses, which it does not. Second off, in the US (which I assume modelers that would sue me are from; I'm not from the US personally and I'm not familiar with the laws of Romania), licenses are enforceable on minors, but the issue arises:

When did the minor acquire the asset and subsequently enter a license agreement? This is hard to prove. Maybe I acquired the assets long before they were removed.
Was the license voided? A minor in the US can actually simply void a license.

 

[stein123]

Any plans to upload the old wc3c.net resources to your site?

 

[AdinizWarcraft]

Any plans to upload the old wc3c.net resources to your site?

Will do as soon as I have some time! I have a full scraped archive of wc3c assets from Ralle's backup of wc3c, using a tool. I'm just tryna figure out what's reuploaded on Hive and what's not!

 

[deepstrasz]

So, this thread was originally made in good faith, with the purpose of discussing the morals and ethics of WC3Vault. This was initially the case with our discussions, but to me, it seems you've devolved tp unconstructive irony and sarcasm. I don't know why that is, but I need you to know that I didn't interact in our discussions with the hope of "converting" you into being okay with WC3Vault, nor should you do so with the hope of "convincing" me into not posting about/removing it.

I hold you in very high respect, and the only reason I made this thread was to see your perspective and that of others, and have a civil debate, but if you cannot keep up with a constructive and intelligent discussion, then that's not on me, and you should stop replying in here and to me.

Hive does not produce a license for assets uploaded here, nor would one even apply to me because I am a minor.

Oh don't play the victim.

Depending on the situation (e.g. do the models already exist on Hive?), I will respond to a cease & desist by properly removing the models from my website, OR I will respond with a legal notice that I will not be complying. Anybody is free to sue me for not complying, but you will find that difficult to do, because again, I am a minor. As far as I'm aware, you are NOT a lawyer, and neither is anybody else here, nor am I, so let's stop pretend-playing law and justice, and stick to objective facts and theoretical discussion.

You're essentially lamely defending your shady site's existence by saying you're a kid among other things. Point is, you don't care about other people's perspective. I'm not sure if Grendel is actually the spoiled child anymore.

- Lastly, if anybody else has issues with the site existing or its moral implications, then please stop lurking this thread and speak out. I WANT to hear your thoughts. I WANT to hear your feedback. I'm not silencing anybody. I'm only pointing out that the purpose of this thread is to debate and discuss, not convince anybody to believe anything.

Yeah, asking for people to validate you.

 

[loktar]

This thread has gotten weird.

 

[Jaccouille]

This thread had gotten fun.

Can I scrape Ralle's backup of wc3c too?

 

[Fleck]

I generally support this. Unfortunately, Retera's villager axeman is not in the vault. I could have used that on my villager race.

 

[Ralle]

I'd actually love to see Ralle implement something like this, because it'd really help clear these discussions.

It's on my list. But I sort of got stumped a bit because allowing someone to put an asset you made in their map is the same as redistribution. It's just a zip-like file with the asset inside. So I don't know how we'd really respect people's wishes. Often they don't want you to repost their stuff elsewhere but you can use it in maps. In any case, I need help with this, and real licenses.