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Techtree Contest #4 - Improved Melee Race

Discussion in 'Contest Archive' started by Pharaoh_, Oct 23, 2010.

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  1. Mephestrial

    Mephestrial

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    Ah man, I thought it said the 14th instead of the 12th. I guess i missed the deadline. That sucks caused I was finished too. I guess my last WIP is my entry then.
     
  2. 67chrome

    67chrome

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    It was hard incorporating so many different units in a race. It felt like if i took a unit away from blood elves or naga they'd suffer from the same feeling, and as humans and orcs have 2 human/orc heroes I figured I'd do that with the naga...If I added any extra units it would probably be another fel orc. I was also trying to make the race feel unique to the other races by using models not avalible to the melee races, and most fel orcs are just hue changes of in-game units. Also, I had done a decent amount of Naga and Blood Elf skins before the contest start, so it was easier to decide on units there.

    Long ass quote


    Heh, I've been using the QWER hotkeys for a while, from a few test runs with your race I noticed you're doing that to. It makes it nice when there are easy patterns to pick up something new (as long as there in the right place XD). It makes it easier to figure out a good hotkey to as you can just look at the XY coordinants and not have to worry about any hotkey overlap.


    Teh Lore:
    Like Lich Prince said, most of the units are from the Black Temple raid in World of Warcraft. Most of the Naga in the Temple are Coilskar [insert npc class here], and all the fel orcs that aren't riding a nether dragon belong to the Bonechewer clan. A lot of the building names come from places in the Black Temple raid as well, such as the Halls of Anguish, Den of Mortal Delights, Black Temple, something of lost souls. As for Illidari a lot of demons and blood elves later in the raid bare the title Illidarai, I just took it as the general faction term for the sake that it's Illidans temple and everything in it is essentially his minions. The naga warlord and Nethermancer's names come from WoW as well, though the Warlord is more from miscellaneous naga males and the Nethermancer uses names from the Tempest Keep raid as well. (mostly just found a list on WoW Wiki). Some of the unit abilities are based off of their WoW counterpart as well, and a few from starcraft counterparts.
    For instance, High Warlord Nan'jentus has Tidal Shell and Needle Spines abilities, and relatively similar abilities have been added to the naga heroes. Illidan also has flame crash and something that creates a path of fire, though I changed their function a tad in the implementation here.

    I might write a more in-depth discription about the Illidari backstory, but I've never been terribly interested in lore. Mostly it's just an excuss to have blood elves and naga working together, with a few demons thrown in the mix XD

    Buildings:
    As for the buildings I couldn't for the life of me get any decent screenshots of the Black Temple. I've only been in it once on a private server to, so I didn't remember a lot of it's appearance. It's so large most if it is concealed in fog to, and it's surrounded in a no-fly zone (I think) so no luck in finding any good screenies of it there either.

    Tech:
    For the tech structures hopefully the game dosen't last long enough for you to finish all the upgrades in them, the first two have 10 and the last 4. All things considered though, Protoss and Zerg have quite a few structures with only 3 upgrades. You're correct in noting the shortage of such buildings in wc3 though.

    Strategy:
    The general racial strategy is very offensive, the unit production building doesn't have to sacrifice time in researching upgrades allowing the Illidari to mass units quickly and unimpeded by time constraints. As the troop production building doubles as a lumber drop-off and can train any standard unit it is beneficial to have several as well at any period in the game. Their defense is essentially a good offense, (though nether foci can aid in giving a home field advantage). Most of the early tier units are also the point-click champs of the Illidari, while higher-tier units require more attention to use and generally have a weaker attack for their cost. The lack of buildings plays into this, were base management isn't a primary focus of the race, allowing kicking @$$ and chewing bubblegum to be.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  3. Direfury

    Direfury

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    Overall, my race was designed to be more strategic than anything, allowing different Alterac players to pick and choose their favoured compliment, like a crew of Atramancers, or a Bishop and some rangers. Each one of these raid group types has a hero to compliment their playstyle, and are all keyed to a certain type of Hero.
    Blasphemer/Heretic< Atramancer, Longranger, Stolen Catapult
    Fallen Knight< Bishop, Syndicate Soldier, Arcanist
    Exalted Caster< Skullbearer, Wildhammer Emissary
    Heirophant<Trained Bears, Attack Dogs (However, the Heirophant is better suited to Expansion Base defence, since he's able to call units to his location and mark targets.
     
  4. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    No offense, I just personally didn't like your race at all, Vermillion. It doesn't seem to really follow the melee gameplay at all, and doesn't even fit in with it. Even for a standalone mod it seems a bit over the top. That may just be my opinion, but I don't like it at all.

    Anyway, now to critique my own race. Basically, I just wanted to do a very simple race with some basic ideas, and I think in the end it shows. I basically modelled my race a little bit after the quantity that the campaign Naga race has, as we are allowed to do this.

    As for the strategy involved in the race, I wanted to make the race a very offensive one, and I figured allowing units to garisson inside your structures would give a good reason to construct buildings next to your opponent's base (especially the Hideout for when you get the Brigand thingies).

    As for how you get the units, it may seem overpowered, but it is very balanced. The only reason it's op atm is because there are no requirements for the best units (as was with the Naga race).

    Also, I made it for fun, so the gameplay is meant for having fun with and it should be easy to use my race =D
     
  5. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    VE and Wazzz, quake in fear, for your review will soon come!
     
  6. Fuzzyfury

    Fuzzyfury

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    Ghost, if you don't know what Bonechewers and Coilskar are, use Wowwiki
     
  7. 67chrome

    67chrome

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    You're plugging your own race and using repetition to say someone else created a terrible one in the same post? That's a sure fire way to not sound like a total douche bag. Seriously though, saying "like", "don't like" and "interesting" offer nothing constructive to a critique, they are entirely subjective statements. Try to keep things as objective as possible.
     
  8. Wazzz

    Wazzz

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    What you seem to be forgetting here is that I AM a douchebag ^^

    Anyway, I personally believe I could have put more effort into my race, but at the same time I wanted to follow the K.I.S.S. policy (Keep It Simple, Stupid!). Hopefully it's fun for people to play, although it looks like a lot of other races are going to surpass mine ^^
     
  9. VeljkoM

    VeljkoM

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    Ah don't be like that. You are a great guy when you want to.

    Well think everyone here fells that way but real life takes priority over fun...
     
  10. 67chrome

    67chrome

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    ^^ As long as were discussing projects that encompass double and possibly triple-digits in work hours I'm going to expect a higher standard of behavior, and everyone here to put forth an admirable attempt to be respectful of each other.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyways, for GhostThruster's Naga...

    The race selection in the beginning of the map seems bugged with your newest map, it worked fine in the older version though. \/
    WC3ScrnShot_021511_115240_01.jpg

    The mid-tier items in the shop (or more specifically potion of haling, potion of mana, and scroll of town portal) don't seem to get unlocked at tier 2. Or they get unlocked and then re-locked. At some point they are unavailable when they should be available, is basically what I'm trying to say.

    All four heroes are still available when one is summoned, and all may be summoned without upgrading the town hall once :O (It looks like a blank space is occupying were the heroes should be in the game play constants).

    The uh, frost guard model in your race was actually a joint effort by Misha and me. He made the model and I made the skin for it. :(

    The turtle vomit (at least in the first map version) caused major lag on my computer when my units (maybe it was just tortoises that triggered this) walked through it. The more vomit a tortoise was surrounded by the slower my computer ran. I'm running at 4 GB of RAM to, so seeing 1 frame every 3 seconds is kind of scary.

    For starting out it would be nice if players received a coral bed for the barnacle turtle to attach to. You could reduce the food supply offered by the town hall to compensate (for instance Zerg hatcheries only offer 1 food while their initial overlord offers 8). Considering all other races start with lumber harvesting capabilities it would be nice, and probably make the unique lumber harvesting mechanic more easily noticeable to first time players.

    Speaking of lumber harvesting, the floating text seems to have been removed in you're more recent map version (it worked in the previous one).

    It was a little hard to tell the ethereals and summoners apart, it would be nice if you added a few details to separate the two units further. Glowing attachments, semi-transparency, etc. Ethereals were pretty solid casters, I liked their healing ability. They seemed to get targeted first and foremost with every invasion though, their life span was pretty shot. Also, you should set their heal to be initially on auto-cast when they are trained.

    Advancing up the tech tree seemed a little rough in the beginning, from the water hounds to infectors it took 2 additional structures.

    All the unit production buildings seemed unusually cheap, the caster building and spawning pool only cost 80 gold and some lumber to build, while similar tier structures cost around double that for the other melee races.

    Infectors were pretty cool, the masses of units they could summon added a unique asthetic to invasions.

    The couatl and tortoise seemed to have to many abilities for their roles, it would be nice if there ability count was lowered by one or two. That being said the tortoise was pretty fun to use, and was one of my favorite units. Perhaps the eat tree ability should have been limited to barnacle turtles though. Barnacle turtles and tortoises could have been different colors as well, atm they look like one should upgrade into the other.

    The freeze ability on myrmidons was more annoying than useful, the duration was to long and turning targets invulnerable was a little aggravating. A mini-stun would have been nicer imo.

    Mana shield on the dreamweaver didn't fit it terribly well, considering it was the only ranged hero of the bunch it generally didn't need the extra health, while any of the three melee heroes could have gained a substantially greater benefit from it.

    Silence proc'ed way to often with the Watcher's aura, with just matching opponent's forces in numbers it essentially locked down all their casters at any level. With the silence effect just on the hero it could be well-balanced, but on an army it seemed rather OP.

    The Sea Ranger seemed a little unfinished with the multi-aura effect, it would be nice if she just gave off one unique aura imo. Rather than increasing dps and survivability you could just go for one or the other, or some effect that improves both (ie vampirism with bonus damage, critical strike and evasion bonuses, offering a bash effect).

    The structures offered a rather nice atmosphere to this race, even in the snow it seemed like they get to relax in a tropical reef while managing the base.

    Mantilisks probably shouldn't have resistant skin, it doesn't make much sense on them. Being considered a hero for the purposes of spells and effects with differing fields for standard units and heroes makes sense on heroic units like mountain giants, infernals, and doom guards, and your Basilisks seem to at least work with that category. Mantilisks don't thematically fit with that group of units though, and if spell resistance is desired the magical bracers (% magic damage reduction) or item defend (% piercing and/or magic and spell damage reduction) would probably serve the unit better. There is no reason Mantilisks should be immune to effects like doom, transmutation, and charm.

    In their unit descriptions Basilisks and Sea Dragons are both refereed to as Leviathans, perhaps a more generic term such as sea monster, serpent, or beast would suit them better. With re-naming the hydra a basilisk and then using another monster name to refer to it in the back story makes it a little convoluted. Also, it would be nice if a little effort was put into differentiating Basilisks from hydra, I know DVO submitted a trycilide model that is a red legless version of the hydra that could serve a different enough aesthetic to merit a different name (Especially if you are going to recycle other names, such as myrmidon, couatl, and summoners). You could always use vertex coloring as well, or simply create your own hue/saturation skin change.

    There seems to be a long delay from when the frost guard casts his ulty to when it actually comes into effect (I've been having a similar problem with my bowmaster's utly). It seems to take in the neighborhood of 3-5 seconds to show after casting.

    Overall the race seemed to have its ups and downs with balancing, though overall felt pretty close to balanced. A lot of units had useful active abilities, but to get the maximum amount of use out of each unit it would require a rather intense amount of micro-managing as well. It would be nice if at least a few of these were auto-cast, such as the coutal's devour magic abilities or the basilisk's split when it approaches low health. Considering how invisibility is a much less serious issue in WC3 than it is in starcraft the invisible-reveal could be tied to the coutals auto-attack instead of requiring targeting.

    The little back story description on all the units was a really nice touch, and aesthetically the race seemed rather well polished. Through spell specifics and the utility of units it seemed to be lacking something though, and the units in general felt a little rough and in need of refinement. A lot of the spells had multiple effects to, for mentally processing what the unit is good for and which spells to use at what times it would be nice if ability rolls could be condensed into one or two effects. For most melee units, the auto-attack, attack type, and armor type play a huge roll in their utility, were abilities simply modify these or show passive upgrades. This ins't a problem with all units, but for every unit that requires a little micromanaging the race seems more encumbered and hard to use. The only reason amphibious movement is cool is because it saves the time of loading and unloading units in a flying machine. While at first loading and unloading doesn't seem so bad, the ease of just cruising to an island instead of investing 1-2 minutes of careful management seems like a totally awesome and nifty thing to have. Likewise, streamlining unit abilities to be as easy to use as amphibious movement could make this race go from cool to totally awesome.

    So to make a long post even longer, I'd say the whole presentation and storyline was pretty solid, and the actual game play and balance was rougher and could use some improvement.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    I hope to get to other entries as well, from the contests in WC3C one of my favorite parts about tech tree creation was reading what other people thought of each other's races. Though if you don't want me to let me know and I'll refrain from doing so.
     
  11. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    @67chrome:
    Well, I'll start off by saying let Wazzz say what he wants to say. No one really cares.

    Now, to your review:
    1. I won't lie. I used Vexorian's Optimizer (making sure to remove some important checkboxes). I think that screwed the entire thing up.

    2. I left the Game constants unchanged, I thought that was part of the rules.

    3. Sorry, I didn't see. If I could update, I would add you to the credits.

    4. Works fine for me.

    5. Yeah, I guess you're right.

    6. Refer to 1.

    7. I tried to take advantage of the models ingame.

    8. Water Hounds have no requirements, and come on, as you've said, Infectors are Pwnage.

    9. I dunno if it was in my V1, but I think my prices got screwed. Refer to 1.

    10. Fav unit by far.

    11. I guess. You only need to use half the abilities in most cases. I tried to make the Tortoise into the ultimate hit'n'runner.

    12. Agreed now. It does piss the owner off lol...

    13. I think it's HP amount requires a Mana Shield (600 and something at level 10), and btw the Sea Witch also is ranged.

    14. I guess I could've set it to maybe 2 second Silence.

    15. Yeah, I threw the Sea Ranger in in a hurry, as I was running out of time.

    16. Took me hell to get all the models.

    17. I thought maybe the genetics would...pass to the younglings? K, I should've changed it lol.

    18. Didn't realise. Apologies.

    19. Could be (refer to 1) or maybe just stupid old Wc3.

    20. Thanks, I thought the backstory would give it a nice touch.
    I purposefully made the spells have multiple effects to encourage micro-management and emphasise on their variety and versatility when it comes to countering enemy defenses. I don't understand what you're talking about with amphibious movement... No units have it. If you're talking about the Barnacle Turtle, well, when you research Spiked Shell, you'll see why it can be helpful to stash units in my Turtles...

    21. Thanks for the review.
    The reasons why my entry was rough was because I didn't have time to balance it (I joined pretty late actually, and I don't go on B.net) and Vexorian's Optimizer fucking screwed the shit up (especially the opening dialog).
    Because of these reasons, I agree with you on nearly all your complaints.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Keep the thoughts coming!
     
  12. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    Well, i dont think i will be judging, but i will review.

    67 Chrome:

    First, Your race is absolutely gorgeous, it has a certain level of post-production that makes it feel polished, but I feel like you could have eased some first timers in, directing people around your race. Also, you lack tech requirements for some (specifically the heartseeker) unit ability upgrades, and, I am sad to say, it lacks any real semblance of balance, Explained below.

    Aesthetics / Finesse
    It looks beautiful, a unified color scheme for the buildings, and some great skin/icon/model choices make it stand out, But the Final Teir naga melee unit really doesn't fit with the rest, he is too bright, kind of breaking the well balanced mold you had, and some of the other models felt out of place somehow. It was also perhaps too dark in feel.

    19/25


    X-Factor
    The units were fun to play with, most of them (especially those end teir naga units) were really cool, and the sense of progression from upgrades was awesome too. Overall, quite fun to play, and nothing (aside from balance) really put me off. It was really quite cool.

    22/25

    Balance
    This is the only really dissapointing part of your race. On my third test, i tried out against two insane computers. I won. Easily.

    First of all, the simply insane DPS of Heartseekers and those little snapdragons was too much, combined with the Najentus' heroes attack speed increase... you get the picture. And the charge ability of the fel orcs... the idea of them not tanking is now out of the question, meaning that the ranged units are safe to deal immense amounts of damage... from a safe position.

    Your units are waaay too cheap for the damage they deal, and, while your fire attack effects allies, your tank units are cheap enough to replace instantly. Aaaaaand so are your ranged units. Also, your little contagion spell can basically destroy an entire army with one cast, including your own, which means you never use it. Ever. Which means that the synergy between your spells is kinda pointless.

    Also, your food buildings both restore Mana... and do damage... They are amazingly waaaay too useful. Also, these Succubus also deal an amazing amount of damage... and have a crapload of hp.

    In short, I could probably take on 3 insane A.Is, but their resource production might finally outmatch the cost/DPS efficient of the illidari.

    10/50

    Total
    51/100

    I'm usually quite hard on Techtrees. You got a pretty good score by my estimate. just increase costs/building times, and decrease DPS.
     
  13. 67chrome

    67chrome

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    All right, thanks for the review. And ya, they are way imbalanced right now, I've experienced most of the drawbacks you've mentioned there. One of the big things with the archers and snap dragons is the weapons upgrades improve them to much, from looking at standard melee units it seems most get any-ware between a 12-20% increase in damage, and the archer and snap dragons get around a 33% boost. Acid saliva working on buildings boosts the snap dragons' damage a bit to much as well, I'm thinking about giving their poison dummy a different version for standard units, heroes, and buildings.
     
  14. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    Makes sense.

    I would increase the cost of all units by 10 - 18% and work on identifying units who deal to much damage, Probably Archers and Snapdragons.

    Usually, depending on the location in the tier, and the existing damage, the factor is increased.

    In Wc3, most upgrades simply add a Dice Side, so maybe play around with the number of dice on later tiers.

    Poison should only affect organic non hero units, Same with contagion, It should be Nerfed and only effect enemy units.

    I have some other suggestions, But I'm too tired to post them now. Good luck if you wanna keep working on your race.
     
  15. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    Well, good thing I put up some WIPs.

    People, please test this map, as the newest one is bugged.
     
  16. Lich Prince

    Lich Prince

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  17. Sage Chow

    Sage Chow

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    ^^ @Lichprince: good idea! I do have a later entry with some minor fixes. It's up to pharao to allow that one; it was after midnight in my country when i put it up. Shouldn't matter that much.

    @TWIF: Well, if you're not judging, then reviews will be very much appreciated.

    I've been trying to put together some critical feedback myself. I randomly threw together some remarks and tried to look at the points below. I'm not a judge and won't give points. I'm working on Lich Prince and GhostThrusters reviews right now. I'll delve a little deeper to find some usefull remarks for you guys. 67Chrome, I dug deep but found some critical points. I really liked your race, so the negative stuff is more my personal opinion and stuff to think about. Vermillion Edict, I overdid your review and compiled a huge list of schoolmaster details. It's meant right, but looks a bit harsh. Take it as a compliment to your race that i spend an hour typing it up. Wraithling, I don't have that much to complain about..

    - Concept: Are the units, buildings, abilities and upgrades tied together around a central theme?
    - Structure: Are units and upgrades distributed over the buildings in a sensible manner?
    - Strategy Does each unit have it's own strategic role or are there excess units?
    - Does each Hero have it's unique role with respect to the race?
    - Abilities: Do the abilities enhance the playstyle?

    @Wraithling

    I followed your concept an had my entire army up in the air near the end of the game. The nightelves and humans did not stand a chance. (The undead have that stupid web ability..). Also the structure and concepts were original yet clear: Eg. the “healer” flying machine, the “caster” genius, caster upgrades etc. I loved the use of Air-deathcoil and flame strike on the heroes. These abilities go so well with air units. (I always got my bloodelves toast in the stupid flamestikes..). In short, one of my favourites.

    Some minor remarks:
    - Townhall: It gives 8 food, making you dead in the water in the beginning, you already need to make a black market to get the lumber going. Give the player 12-15 food so you can atleast train a hero right off the bat.
    - Dwelling upgrades: This is a good idea that goes with the recycle concept. Just make them upgrade more food and make them more expensive.
    - Heroes: I would have loved a level 6 morph ability giving the junkmaster the ability to fly (add some junk wings and some siege bomb attack to drop on buildings). My heroes got killed all the time while my flying units stayed out of trouble (which was the entire point of the race, so 10/10 for that).
    - Tech dependancies: Some upgrades required the recycle upgrades. I understand you would want to promote your systems like that, but I felt this was forced on the player and unneccesary.
    - Black Market Lumber: Not the strongsuit, but I enjoyed not having to spend time harvesting lumber.
    - Flametower: The garrison is a bit of a waste in melee games. But i could see use for it in campaign strategies.


    @67Chrome

    You've done a great job customizing abilities, groundtiles and tooltips to craft a full detailed race. The bold choices in techtree structure, unit choice and unit training do not get my preference, but atleast you've put a sence of logic behind all of of this that I can appreciate. On the second playthrough I realized that there weren't so many units as I initially assumed and that each unit does have a niche of somesorts. The groundtiles and and townhall fit the Black Temple theme so well and the coilskar naga form a brilliant sub-race. I'm not sure whether the elves and fel orcs fit together aestetically, but this is your choice.

    I hoped you'd make the 4 sub buildings to the black temple, maybe one for each sub-race. I'm not a big fan of the single barracks and I would've preferred 3 buildings; one for each sub-race individually. Maybe with the acid beast in the townhall, the sparkwing with the bonechewers and enabling the heartseeker or spellsword right from tier 1. This way you could've placed the relevant upgrades with the relevant units, so the player can choose his preferred sub-race. Anyways, there is a logic to the system, so I guess this is not too bad. At least the upgrades are distrubuted in a logical way; i had no confusion issues when playing your race so that's a very good sign. The summaries below the tooltips played a huge factor in this. Kudo's on the details.

    Im not sure what you had in mind for the overarching strategy. The same goes for the hero abilities. They do fit the hero in a way, but don't seem to be part of a combo. The unit abilities are well thought-off (excellent use of the object editor). I highlighted a few that are overpowered or seem to be unfinished; damage is applied twice, a debuff trigger is absent, the spell is not completely MUI etc.

    - The spellseeker doesn't seem to have much use in the melee environment. It's a stealth unit, but somehow you get it too late to scout and it's too frail to join the battle. The 1.5x anti hero bonus could be upgraded, but i feel the unit needs more buff to be a late gamer or needs to join in earlier. I don't know.
    - The 1 foodcost spammers are a bit broken, I suggest downgrading the acidbeasts and increasing sparkwing foodcost to 2. Remember that you can only select 12 units.
    - The bonechewer seems outclassed by the reaver. You could make the reaver cost 5 food to give the bonechewer more of a place and then the spellsword must compete with this guy aswell.
    - For me the runed-bracers ability doesn't seem to work when used on a unit, but i only recently updated my wc3.
    - Maybe remove the location Temppoint in the triggers (I'm not a very good spellmaker myself)
    - Enlarge doesn't completely dispell. You should add a unit group and check if the unit has the buff or remove the abilities.
    - Strangle is such a killer ability. I used a similar ability in Avatar of Ice, dealing only 8 damage per attack. Playing against it made it such an annoying ability that I had to dispell it right away or die from the effects. You could increase the mana cost a little. This is definitely an ability that you could combo with illusions, summons and tank units.
    - Some units deal double damage. The damage indicated on the screen is applied as well as the spell damage. You can fix this by setting attack 1 to target only wards or allies and making attack 2 the official attack (with a -1 damage), hiding it under a caster upgrade icon to give some information about the spells or whatever. As of now the heartseaker does 22 damage on average + 1- 46 damage depending on the range. This is a bit much.. Also the sparkwing should be fixed in this manner.
    - Your hero spell making does not always accout for multiple spells/heroes: Add an index system to Petrify so you can cast it by multiple heroes on multiple targets at once, without bugging it and permanently setting an armor bonus on the target unit. It's good that you used ensnare for this spell. I used pauze unit for a similar freezing spell that ended up crashing the AI on infinite stuns.
    - You may want to set unitgroups into a variable to remove leaks, but i'm no expert.


    @Vermillion Edict

    What is the theme of the race? Judging from the big buildings and the walls I initially assumed that this was a city-themed race, where the player can build a huge fortress with gates and towers. But later I vaguely remembered a refugee theme. These are opposite themes and should not be combined in a race. You need to make a choice.

    You've done a good job on the heroes. Here you did make a clear plan how the heroes should function and it pays off: The abilities match the strategic roles and have a little synergy. I love the heirophants teleportation abilities to underline a leader role. Do this with the rest of your units too and you'll be fine!

    You've done a very poor job on the structure of the race and to me this sets the race from a well executed fun to play race to a chaotic confusing race. If you fix this part, I'm sure you would've gotten a high rating. There are loads of examples below of little details that got mixed up. I even got a little mad thinking about this, because you could have done so much better. I suggest an alternate distrubution of units and techs in the end. This is just my vision of your race, not me telling you what to do. Use it as a second perspective.

    The abilities were a mixed bag. Some abilities were placed on the wrong unit types and missed the ball completely. Others were at least balanced, but lacked detail. This could be a timing issue.

    I'd like to point out that names of buildings and units could be kept simple. (more directed in general than at you). You did this, but then you went and added unimportant suffices. Like (ex-)bisshop or (captured) catapult. Leave the suffix out, and it's a lot better.

    Lots of remarks

    - Skullbearer: Why does a 250 hp unit learn thunderclap and taunt? Put it atleast on a melee (Tcl) or bulky unit (Taunt).
    - Cull: Why on earth would an archer with a random 1 manapoint want to steal mana?? At least make it manaburn or feedback. But even then.. It should be on a spellcaster unit.
    - Lumbermill: Never use a large pathing map for a lumbermill. It is SUPPOSED to be small so it can be build in the vicinity of resources.
    - Altar: There are upgrades, items and units on your altar. This doesn't work here. Make a choice what kind of building you want it to be. NEVER mix heroes with regular units unless you have a logical plan behind it!
    - Upgrades: Your upgrades are all over the place and none are where they're supposed to be. Find a logical place for your upgrades, preferably under the corresponding unit icon. So many were in a totally random different building. Putting techs in the right place is basic stuff on a techtree contest!
    - Townhall upgrades: Why is there a research that enables the upgrade of the townhall? This should go.
    - Safe House: Why would units want to garrison in the upgraders? There is no attack or any other gain from this. The watchtower true sight is quite useless in the melee environment aswell. Add a garrison attack.
    - Tavern: You need to make a choice: Either go for the mercenaries or go for training units, preferably the same for the entire race. If you do one mercenary building then don't give unit-specific upgrades for mercenaries. The mercenaries seem to be a random bunch of units slapped together. What is the connection between them? What is the orc catapult doing here? And finally there are items on this building intertwined with units and upgrades... You need to bring a kind of logic to the table here. That is what a techtree is all about!
    - Baracks: Allright, the longranger should be here and the upgrades. One down. The mage should definitely go, don't you have any better unit for a baracks? Maybe the soldier or catapult?
    - Beastmaster Lodge: Trained bear, attack dog? What are they doing in the race? There is no strategic role for these units that hasn't been fulfilled yet. These units are the Knight, the Bishop and the Soldier. They should definitely go. The icon positions are a mess, I believe there is a random upgrade in position one? But, ok atleast you put the 'beasts' in the 'beastmaster lodge'.
    - Wall builder: Good idea, poor execution. Rename the second worker unit to Architect or anything more sensible than 'Dreg'. Also make the unit available from the start rather than the expansion building. Make icons indicating the direction of the wall or gate (eg horizontal stripe + arrow). Have it build the lumbermill, townhall and all defence towers in the last 4 slots, and make it harvest lumber aswell. Alternatively, you could use a morph ability to switch between the two builder units.
    - Bishop: Why the 'ex-'? It doesn't make the name cooler, go for the simple name. As a melee unit replace the last 3 abilities with the skullbearer abilities. Thunderclap and taunt do wonders on this guy. Don't get me wrong, this guy has potential, even with the siege damage. I'd love to see it used better.
    - Atramancer: What is this guy doing in your race? A mage from the twisted nether just happens to join a human army? I searched for 10 minutes for this unit on the first run, remembering something about item recipies from the forum. A lot of frustration followed: What the hell is it doing on the altar between the heroes? Why is it disguised as an upgrade? (the Unholy Aura icon on a second position screems upgrade!) And why does it need the silver plating upgrade? To be fair: I also used a dependancy like this myself once, on the icetroll race. But after seeing this on multiple entries in the contest I realized that this is just wrong.
    - Townhall 2: Why is there a second townhall available? Make this the upgrade from the tent townhall instead.
    - Ability Hero Dependancies: Some abilities require a certain hero to be in the field. I have mixed feelings about this. Maybe you could have expanded on this system and enable/disable abilities upon chosing a hero. The disbtn icons and the randomness really made this a bad point for me, when it could have been a selling point to your race. Trigger: A unit is trained (heirophants), enable Holy light for (owner of trained unit).
    - Mystic Spire: Make it buildable by the wall-builder unit.

    Here is my view of your race. I just moved units to other buildings, swapped some abilities and changed names/associations to fit a concept. This is just another perspective, completely based on your ideas. The names are just associations, I forgot the proper building names while typing this.
    - Tent Camp → Building → Castle: Train Worker/Wall Builder. Research any leftover upgrades here.
    - Altar: Heroes only!
    - Baracks: Soldier/Longranger/Catapult
    - Black Magic (Something): Arcanist/Skullbearer/Atramancer
    - Church: Arcanist (Depending on his role/name) /Bishop/Crusader(Noble)
    - Aviary/Whatever: Warhammer Emissary
    - Small Lumbermill: Fortification upgrades for walls/towers
    - Upgrader: Place all global and armor techs here.
    - Tavern: Place your basic items here. If you want more items you could consider a buildable second item shop and put the watchtower on the wall-building worker. If you want mercenaries: place 3 simple (!!) units in the top three places and leave the fourth open. I suggest the dog here. You could also make a dog-companion ability for the longrangers or casters for instance.

    Place unit specific upgrades under the relevant units in the relevant buildings.
    Make safehouse something more. A church could have a sickbay regenerating loaded units' hitpoints. The Magic Baracks could replenish loaded units mana. Towers could have an orc-burrow attack. Now you have a racial system that is cool and innovative, without changing much to your initial concept.
    In the “wall building and big buildings” theme: you could add a second food production building that is weaker and bigger but also cheaper and faster to build; something like a city building. Add it to the second worker.
     
  18. Direfury

    Direfury

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    I was actually planning to do most of those little updates, I just didn't have the time.

    I actually planned on turning the Bear and Wolf into human versions of the Raider and Kodo Beast, with riders and such.
     
  19. VeljkoM

    VeljkoM

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    Wait are we allowed to still update our map? Doesn't that kinda kill the point of deadline?
     
  20. Fuzzyfury

    Fuzzyfury

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    cmon! stop updating the maps... we are past the deadline... -.-
     
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