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Taking the Galaxy Editor very seriously

Discussion in 'StarCraft I & II' started by OverSky, Mar 18, 2010.

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  1. Fussiler1

    Fussiler1

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    Made me rofl.
     
  2. Viikuna

    Viikuna

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    Many popular maps in wc3 are actually pretty simple and rely almost completely on wc3 own art, aside from few special effects here and there, with some other custom models.

    Mechanics are usually pretty wc3 like too, with some additions. Take wc3 own experience gain system for heroes, and write some simple gold gaining system so you can buy stuff. Make a hero with native wc3 critical strike, and some triggered dash attack thingy.


    Because part of stuff is already familiar from ladder, its easy for people to learn how to play them. And they are free. People rarely buy games with ugly graphics, but if you download some wc3 map, it at most has few ugly models and you still dont loose anything because its free.


    Maps like DotA, Footmen Frenzy are about the gameplay. People play AoS maps, because its different from wc3 ladder. You can focus on your Hero character.




    Anyways, without being able to model, do 2d art, script stuff, you are limited. You can carry out much less of your crazy ideas. You cant do any real cool stuff.

    Then again, maybe you dont have to. Game developning is business, and you want to get max profit with minimum risk. You simply dont carry out all the craziest and coolest ideas.

    You can make a just fine map for wc3, without any too dramatic ideas and changes from normal wc3 stuff. People prefer familiar stuff, dont they?



    I dont really know. I personally just see mapping in some form of art, and I do it because its fun. ( Although I havent really done it for long time, lols. ) Im an artist, and a map is a piece of art.


    And then there is the thing that wc3 custom map system kinda sucks. Popular maps simply become more popular, because I too personally prefer to play DotA after few minutes of waiting, than having to wait ? time in some game lobby wondering if the game ever starts.


    If stuff works in same way witch sc2, there will probably be few hugely popular maps, mostly based on stuff that is already in the game.
     
  3. DungeonM

    DungeonM

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    For someone who claims to study "rhetoric" you sure have a way of muffling up what you have to say and then rambling on and on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  4. Viikuna

    Viikuna

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    Cassiel knows what hes saying and he has the name and the guts and the glory, but now he just gotta release that goddamn version O, so I can play it goddamit.

    Or at least some new cool teaser video.
     
  5. Mr.Cheese

    Mr.Cheese

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    Oh, I'm sorry. Am I supposed to look at this thread every single day?
     
  6. Mr.Cheese

    Mr.Cheese

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    You know you are right over the target when you are receiving the most flak.

    If I am so wrong, then why are you behaving like I hit a sensitive area? Why not just ignore me?


    Try actually looking at what you said in the thread I linked at.

    This is melting down:

    It's funny how the dude who actually made DotA doesn't get any credit, while two guys who can barely put together a coherent line of JASS and have no design skills whatsoever have been scooped up under the misguided belief that they will somehow duplicate a success that was never theirs to begin with.

    Emphasis is yours.

    Of course Valve picks up stuff like Counter-Strike and DotA at least halfway because of the publicity and good will it generates in the community, so they definitely resemble Hollywood in terms of their marketing emphasis. But maybe they genuinely don't know the history of DotA, either.

    The thing that really annoys me, though, is that I've been playing Half-life 2 for the first time, and holy hell is this game overrated. The first half is an absolute trainwreck in terms of pacing. My faith in other people's opinions about games is waning.


    What is being said here:

    -is that Valve picks up mods only for the publicity and 'good will' from the community.

    -Valve is so stupid, unlike the brilliant Cassiel, that they do not know the true history of DOTA.

    -Half-Life 2 sucks (which is a roundabout way of saying Valve sucks)

    What else to take from this but 'meltdown'? So you've posted cherry picked quotes where you praised Icefrog in somewhere else. All you are doing is reinforcing that you had a meltdown when news came out that Icefrog got hired at Valve.

    My point in linking to the thread was not to point at the meltdown but to give an example of the 'Industry' hiring someone (Icefrog in this example) who Cassiel, himself, said could barely put together some lines in JASS.

    I enjoy using Cassiel's own words against him.


    Confident people with 'authority' have no need to 'declare it' like you just did.

    Good God man! You talk here like you are running for Congress.

    Using exact quotes of yourself can be, in no shape or form, 'attributing anger' or trying to show you in a false light. You said what you said. So what?

    I don't care about your little meltdowns. What I do care about is how you correctly attributed that Icefrog doesn't do much in the coding or in the originality yet he gets hired by the 'Industry' while you get to sit here on the Internet talking to my charming self.

    What good did learning all the guts of Warcraft 3 do to you if you are left arguing in a message forum with a poster named Mr. Cheese? Even I'm embarrassed for you.

    Then why argue with someone who clearly has no authority and no confidence? Why not just ignore them? Why are you so defensive?

    I highly doubt this for the simple fact that IceFrog has no experience selling a game. It is very different story of selling something versus giving it away for free. The art of any business is the art of selling.

    A good question is whether or not anyone would have paid money for Warcraft 3 DOTA. Just putting a price tag completely changes the reaction of people.

    Yes, I am so sure his 'mad' JASS programming skills are the reason why Valve hired him. There are some very good JASS programmers here on the HIVE. Why doesn't Valve hire them?

    The answer is that programming is not the reason why Icefrog was hired. And everyone knows this. Even you.

    But you are too arrogant to admit it. Life is not about being right or wrong, it is about winning and losing. If you try to be 'right' all the time, you will only end up losing. You will go through life "learning the guts" of things and watch rank amateurs like IceFrogs 'leap' over you.

    Here is what you said in that thread (which is another indicator of the melt-down):

    Second, Guinsoo "just" supplied all the cool ideas? Really? The guy who did half the creative work, established the map's community and built a competitive scene around it--this guy was "just" twiddling his thumbs, while the guy who pushed some numbers around is some kind of hero? Are you joking?

    The fact is that DotA was already hugely popular when Guinsoo stepped aside. The creative work had already been done, so of course IceFrog polished it, refined it, tightened it up, and whatever other synonyms you can come up with to disguise the fact that he really hasn't done much, certainly no more than anybody else would have done. Because by that point all the important work was finished. IceFrog pushed numbers around because there was nothing else for him to do.


    The emphasis is yours.

    In your own exact words, you give credit for the 'community building' to Guinsoo. And you say IceFrog did little more than push numbers around.

    But you say more in that post. Let us read it together:

    Eul and Guinsoo were both tools. Personality-wise, IceFrog is easily the best of the people who have headed DotA. But that doesn't make him a good designer, and it doesn't mean he deserves any of what's coming his way--certainly not moreso than Eul. If you really don't understand that this is just marketing on Valve's part, there's not much more I can do for you here. As someone who's worked extensively on this kind of abstract propaganda, though, I find the thought that you don't resent being marketed to in this way fairly depressing.

    I laugh at the end because Cassiel then claims to be the great expert on marketing.

    Now, why am I quoting your posts? I am not defending or attacking Icefrog. I am only quoting these posts because they contradict what you just said.

    Why do I care about contradictions? It is because you were lecturing me on 'intellectual honesty'. The argument, as it appears, is not between Cassiel and Mr. Cheese but between Cassiel and Cassiel. Which Cassiel will win? Which one will appear to reply to me? Take your bets. I should start a money pool.


    So says Cassiel, the Expert on Valve, and now Expert on Marketing. Please, Cassiel, let me bow to your expertise. I am not worthy!

    I never said anyone would hit the 'jackpot' by making their own game company.

    The fact is that you can become a game designer right now by using the computer in front of you. You don't have to go through any industry. You can make a game RIGHT NOW.

    This is how the first game designers did it. They did it on their own. Many people are making games, today, without joining any company. And they are selling their games too.

    So why don't you go make a game? Clearly, you have all the programming skills, game theory skills, marketing skills, and know everything else. By making a game and successfully selling it, that alone would put you WAY AHEAD of any of the sea of applicants of people trying to 'get into the Industry'.

    Which doesn't contradict what I've said in the slightest. Because my point is that if you have no skills, you'll never create anything in the first place. Go to any modding site and try to put together a team where you're the designer and other people do all the art and coding for you. They'll laugh at you. You need these basic skills not because they're what matters most in game development, but because without them you won't be able to make anything on your own or with a team. Necessary, not sufficient conditions.

    And this is why I brought up IceFrog. By your own admission, IceFrog lacks the programming skills. Yet, he got hired while you are sitting here talking to a guy named Mr. Cheese in some message forum.

    Of course you need to understand how to operate and manipulate a computer in order to make a computer game. But programming and art are not the product. The product is the user experience the game does. The person who becomes the designer is not the engineer but the one who knows how to maneuver people's emotions.

    Saying 'you have to know programming' about making a game is as pointless as saying 'you have to know grammar' about writing a novel or 'you have to know how to play an instrument' in playing a song.

    The values of the engineer are not going to create a successful game. They never do. This is why Miyamoto doesn't build engines and why people want John Carmack to just make engines (since his games tend to be not so good).

    Ultimately, the most important skill is the selling (which you are not mentioning at all). Most people do not know how to sell. This is why they forever work for someone else.

    Your job will never be to make the best made game. Your job will always be to make the best selling game. You'll go further in life knowing the business elements than the programming elements. This is why the Infinity Ward guys get fired and Kotick gets the last laugh (and the cash).

    (Keep in mind I am using 'you' as rhetorical. You claim you do not want to make games for a living. Fine. But the process you are engaging would not lead you to success in making and selling a game.)

    You are pushing the engineer's context as the supreme context. It is not. The 'game design' and 'game theory' garbage is the same engineer context.

    'Game theory' is not the same as 'user experience'. 'Game theory' is nothing more than some academics or some out of work developer trying to make a living off of talking about gaming. Only tools believe in that stuff.

    Why live in theory? Why not live in reality? Make a game right now and put it out.

    Now, as this thread is about, you can create a map to test out user experience without needing to know all the programming or to make one's art assets. And sorry to bring up the example again, but DOTA is a good example of little to no programming (except perhaps in some spells) and absolutely no art. Yet, it created a user experience.

    The destination is not 'game theory' or 'programming language' or 'art assets'. The destination is the user experience.

    How do you get to the user experience? It certainly isn't through the engineering context you keep spouting.

    You know Sid Meir contradicted everything you have been saying, but you are playing a game where you 'have to be right about everything'. Sid Meir did not talk about 'theory'. He did not talk about 'programming language'. He talked about one thing: the user experience and how the user experience forced him to totally throw away his engineering context.

    The reason why I mentioned Meir's speech was because it was more of an 'in your face' that the typical assumptions (which you are spouting) are wrong. Rob Pardo says the same thing.

    Both Pardo and Meir talk about where they went wrong. They did not say, "We should have read more 'game theory' books." They know they did something wrong because the user experience was not good. Everything that they are saying is revolving around 'user experience'. Not programming language. Not art assets. And not even 'psychology' in the way you mean it.

    You haven't caught on how to think like a businessman. Yes, you will fail. And that is good. The rub is that you only have to succeed once.

    Most of the reasons why people fail is because they think like you in that "programming language skills" and their overpriced books on "game theory" will lead them to be making great games on the iPhone or some other platform. They never thought to learn about, say, skills in sales.

    The reason why Blizzard is allowing people to sell their maps is because they don't want custom made games to leave the Blizzard platform. Tower Defense was made in Warcraft 3 and it is gone to other platforms. DOTA is gone. There is no reason to stay on the Blizzard platform since there is no financial incentive. Blizzard is offering a financial incentive.

    It isn't about 'marketing'. It is about keeping content made in the Galaxy Editor on Blizzard's platform.

    Why stop there?

    You have to know how to turn on a computer to make a game, right?

    You have to know how to use a keyboard, right?

    You have to know how to get electricity in order to power that computer, right?

    All these skills you are neglecting are necessary to make a video game. Why don't you mention them?

    You know I was dead on right when I said user experience is the key. Now you are trying to change what you said to mean a 'utilitarian argument' meaning if you can't program, there is no game! That is not what you were saying and you know it. You were on your coding pedestal telling the 'underlings' that they need to be like you and know the programming. Programming might help create the user experience, but programming skills are only one tool to this end.

    The reason why I am responding to you in the first place is because I despise arrogant condescension and you are dripping with it.

    But you were acting like you had to go through the industry to make a game. That is why you said you had to do X or Y in order to get hired. That is acting like you have to go through the industry to make a game. =)

    A graduate degree in psychology!? No wonder you sound like you are pissed off at life!

    Sid Meir does know a hell more about psychology than you do. Your degrees are nonsense. It is not real world type stuff.

    At this point I'd say Lady Gaga knows more psychology than you do.

    Considering that there is only one Tides of Blood place and a zillion different DOTA places, I don't see why you consider that an achievement.

    Perhaps because you keep harping on it?

    Computer science and 'studying' doesn't have anything to do with programming. If you program, you are a programmer. Period. Computer science degrees doesn't automatically make one a programmer.

    Judging from our conversation, you are not that good at rhetoric, your history concerning entertainment mediums is bad, I can see why you seem pissed off in life if you studied Latin, and so on.

    But I am beginning to notice that you are not really talking to me or talking about any subject at all. You are, essentially, talking about yourself and only about yourself. It is as if the world revolves around Cassiel.

    You got owned, and now you are backtracking.

    Here is what you said in this very thread:

    The myth of the game designer whose only job is to have great ideas is just that: a myth. In reality, if you don't know how to code, your map will fail. If you don't know how to create or manipulate graphical elements like special effects, character models and UI widgets, your map will fail. In general, if you don't know how to do everything that is necessary to see your map through to completion by yourself, your map will fail. And of course, if you proceed as though you're going to create some brilliant premium map and make a million dollars, your map will fail. You're not the creative genius you think you are, and your game idea sucks. So start learning C++, start learning 3ds Max and Photoshop or their equivalents, start learning the fundamentals of game design and game theory, and stop daydreaming about that amazing map you're going to make that somehow won't involve any hard work.

    Emphasis is yours.

    Again, I bring up DOTA. IceFrog didn't do most of DOTA by himself. IceFrog did not program all the spells, did not make the art assets, and didn't even make the general design of the map! Yet, DOTA succeeded. But your post, with all its 'confidence' and 'authority', declared that unless you know how to do everything, it will fail.

    You might want to look up the concept of leverage. Drop your Latin, your Greek, your philosophy, your psychology, and your literature and start picking up some business books. Not cliche marketing nonsense. Business. And you will learn why you were incorrect in your original post.
     
  7. thisruoy

    thisruoy

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    teehee ^ an ever bigger post.

    In my opinion, cassiel and mr cheese are both just trolling. Your egos are too big, just go bitch fight somewhere else please. What you are both saying isnt constructive in any way. Your just taking cheap shots at each other. Behave kids.
     
  8. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    well obviously the original poster is long gone so i say lets just keep their trolling here.
     
  9. Fussiler1

    Fussiler1

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    .. you guys dont know what trolling is, do you?
     
  10. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, video hosting site, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. (wikipedia ofc.)


    YES I do happen to know.
    Lets keep that annoying crap here.
     
  11. Fussiler1

    Fussiler1

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    Exactly.
    But did Cassiel or Mr.Cheese go apeshit?
    They just accuse each other of things, but they do not scold/go off-topic at themselves.
     
  12. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    but its very off topic and pointless... and no one really cares other than them, wich means its probably an emotionally driven ordeal... lets just CLOSE THIS THREAD.
     
  13. Fussiler1

    Fussiler1

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    They just have a mutual disagreement, and how far is programming away from the Galaxy Editor?
     
  14. Berb

    Berb

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    Well I wouldn't call it so much a mutual disagreement as Cassiel enjoying the smell of his own farts. I read his post about Valve and DotA when he posted it, and it was clear he wasn't too happy about the news. Then I started reading his arguments here where he claims to (from my perspective) directly contradict himself.

    I also find it funny how he uses some extremely useless knowledge he has in Latin to his argument's "false" advantage. It really doesn't matter what "Ego" means in Latin the argument against him was still true. The things he said could have been simplified to "I am the greatest person ever". This is not the first case where Cassiel has snuffed his head in between his thighs and taken a whiff of his diarrhea farts. Cassiel only posts once in awhile because he thinks it makes him look more intelligent. He puts himself on a pedestal (with a fart gas-mask) and anybody who challenges his pedestal's foundation is immediately subject to insta-hatred by Cassiel (and probably banishment from his tidesofblood.com too).

    I think that Cassiel just needs to get laid.

    In regards to this thread, OverSky just wanted people to look at his YouTube videos. He, along with Cassiel (there, see! It's not off-topic!) are both from San Fransisco, where they love taking the biggest whiffs of their smelliest farts, whether it be saying how much they completely own at StarCraft, or how completely God-like they are when it comes to anything of Cassiel's personal interest.
     
  15. Cassiel

    Cassiel

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    Dude, you wounded his pride. Now he has to puff up his chest so the other primates don't realize he got handled.
     
  16. DungeonM

    DungeonM

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    Most internet users would disagree with this definition. The term trolling comes from the fishing technique. If you go trolling for fish, you let out a line with bait and drag it upon the surface, waiting for a bite. On the internet trolling is done by posting something that is likely to spark an emotional response. The difference is that the troll doesn't necessarily have to care about their view. Cassiel isn't just some anonymous poster, he has an identity and reputation to consider. It IS entirely plausible that he is trolling, but I don't think that's the case. I believe most people who posted in this discussion legitimately care about what is being discussed and have no intent to cause trouble (just for the sake of causing trouble).

    But... I could be wrong. Just thought I'd clear that up though seeing as how this thread has completely derailed.
     
  17. Mr.Cheese

    Mr.Cheese

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    wilt thou whip thine own faults in other men?

    -Timon of Athens. Shakespeare. Act V, Scene I


    Ouch!
     
  18. OverSky

    OverSky

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    Woa I'm from San Fransisco?
    I didn't even know that, that's crazy.

    I couldn't care less about getting my youtube publicity, I haven't posted a new video in almost a month and that will continue because I don't play Starcraft 2 competitively anymore as I said in the OP.

    I'm preparing for the Galaxy Editor full-time as I said. I'm sure I'll lose a lot of subscribers between now and when I use it for the maps I make.

    If anyone is curious this thread has been a huge success and I've met a lot of talented and wonderful people because of it.

    Feel free to continue posting off-topic, the nature of this thread doesn't really necessitate a discussion in the following posts.

    Does Cassiel remind anyone else of Obama?
    So rhetorically dominant that you almost don't care if he's right or not.

    I haven't been able to read more than a few lines of Cheese's posts before he says something I disagree with.
    (The most recent one being that 3 bolded words in a slightly aggressively worded sentence warrants the use of the word meltdown.)

    Annnnyways, once again, if anyone wants to share ideas, techniques or possibly team up at some point with Galaxy, shoot me a pm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  19. Berb

    Berb

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    What reputation are you talking about? Last I heard Cassiel was banned (or left) wc3c.net because he couldn't get along with anybody there. Now he's having troubles here.
     
  20. The World Is Flat

    The World Is Flat

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    Regardless it is the definition i was using...

    1.
    not really no. (imo) trolling is any kind of OFF TOPIC (this is real definition) AND emotionally based argument... and thats what is going on... you are harrasing each other with insults and argument over oppinion not facts...
    but i don't really care anymore...

    2. you just explained it yourself. he is defenging his EGO (indentity and reputation) to defend. therefore it is an emotional discussion.

    3. at first it was. i agree. but when he saw people diden't agree with him. it became an emotional, ego-based discussion.


    quote&Does Cassiel remind anyone else of Obama?
    So rhetorically dominant that you almost don't care if he's right or not.&unquote

    more of people like rush limbaugh and palin. i don't find obama to be like that at all. but lets not make this a political trollfest.
     
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