SupCom: Icy Oasis (v21)

[TM-Magic]

Yeh, I have typed it, even before you mentioned it, but I thought it was suppose to only give the values...which I didn't bother writing down because there were so many...

As for the cruisers...do what you want, but then I have to ban them every game I play. The fact is, they're strong against any defense, and to counter even just 3 of them, you need 6 tactical missile defenses... Then their AA is stronger than their normal attack... and since they have a huge range, land units can't touch them...their aa is so strong air units can't either so your only chance is to have a navy. With an escort of battleships and torpedo boats, they have no counter at all. Players like to build 12 naval factories and mass produce them and I can't do anything about it.

Maybe just lower the AA dmg or range???

Also yeh, I have seen that happen a few times skull. The yield is positive but the total mass/energy is 0 and it lasts for a few mins to...forever.

When I said you might have a leak, I'm saying the game got slow even after a lot of things were wiped out, which isn't unusual.

But yeh, can I still take a look to see how you did some things?

 

[Skullclaimer]

Yeh, I have typed it, even before you mentioned it, but I thought it was suppose to only give the values...which I didn't bother writing down because there were so many...

As for the cruisers...do what you want, but then I have to ban them every game I play. The fact is, they're strong against any defense, and to counter even just 3 of them, you need 6 tactical missile defenses... Then their AA is stronger than their normal attack... and since they have a huge range, land units can't touch them...their aa is so strong air units can't either so your only chance is to have a navy. With an escort of battleships and torpedo boats, they have no counter at all. Players like to build 12 naval factories and mass produce them and I can't do anything about it.

Maybe just lower the AA dmg or range???

I'm sorry but I have to take the chance of being seen as an a**hole in order to express my point of view but I'll have to disagree. Frankly the game should never reach the battleship stage. If you let them just build up that much to the point that they have battleships and torpedo boats escorting them then the only way to counter it is t4. Do you realise how expensive a battleship is and how long does it take to build one? It is almost like 15-20 min building time and if you just let them build up then I guess you are playing it wrong. One of my previous posts I tried to explain that the turtling strategy in this map doesn't work. However that doesn't mean that the map needs a nerf. Why do you propose to build structures instead of units to counter them? All you need is 2 to 3 shield generators and 5 to 6 t3 artillery or if you cannot do that you can also send in torp bombers (4 or 5 per cruiser) to take them down. It really isn't as hard as you seem to believe.

If your enemy masses navy, mass torp bombers. If he masses air units, mass aa tanks or air superiority. Adjust your tactics according to your opponent. This isn't td...

 

[TM-Magic]

Point expressed well, however it is now my turn.

I am not sitting here playing noobs. They defend everything I push at them and once and a while they build up a navy that I don't notice. You act like I have all the time in the world to counter them but if they game's at a stale mate and your only real chance is to tech up and they also tech up, its a good game, however, if they tech navy, I'm fucked. That shouldn't ever happen. I've seen these things take down t4's...

Second of all, it only takes a couple minutes to get tech 2. The cruisers are fairly cheap to build. Maybe not the battleships, which do have a counter. I'm not talking about the battleships being over powered. I'm talking about the cruisers being over powered. The battleships are just escorts for protection, which destroyers also help with.

Here I'll give u the play by play of the game where this happened.

I start by building 3 gens, 2 extractors then a factory and 2 engineers.
I expand and mass produce extractors across the region while building more generators and 2 more factories.
I build a dozen units for defense and tech up to t2.
Then I build 2 t2 engineers and set up a forward defense as well as aa defense while mass producing aa tanks, bots, tanks and missile launchers.
Thats when I discover 1 of my opponents did a quick tech to t3 (with low resources) and the other 2 are also on t2. They set up a defense near their base just out of range of mine. We both mass missile launchers and I eventually build shields and tactical missile defenses.
While building defense/units I'm also upgrading resources to prepare for t3. And this is also when I notice they already have a dozen cruisers at my doorstep. To counter I build 6 air factories and upgrade them to t2 and mass produce torpedo bombers. I instruct my ally to do the same. Together we mass maybe 30 of them and attack...however by then he has 2 dozen cruisers. He keeps them separate so we go after 1 group and instead of sitting there taking damage, he retreats them and our torpedo bombers don't do a single hit, because they never get in range while the cruisers...

I'm sorry but I'm not playing against people who sit on their ass and attack. I'm playing skilled players who know how to use what they have. Simple things like sending bombers in to destroy a ship isn't as easy as it sounds when your playing someone like that. I play like that also, but the thing is I try not to use things that I see as highly unbalanced to test how balanced they are. It's how I balance my map and I've discovered that if you don't see it from the other end, if your not the one getting shit on by these units, you will never see how unbalanced they are.

 

[TM-Magic]

This is when people started to leave...(it started off 3v4) 1 of my members left and 2 of theirs left, so it was now a 2v2.

He even decides that it is too cheap to use and backs off for a while and never produces them again. I figured he would retire them so I didn't bother building a million torpedo bombers to counter but instead decided to use my income to build up resources as well as defense and offense. (I'm usually a fairly balanced player). Since I had to mass bombers, I was already behind and they were starting to get T4. My fortified position was now completely destroyed (by cruisers and artillery) and units weren't advancing...(they felt bad for us). So I used the time to get T4 and I figured it was quiet enough they may have nukes so I quickly got an anti nuke defense...sure enough they launched one and I protected myself. by this time I had enough resources to produce t4 units fairly quickly and built 4 t4 gunships and when they were finished they're cruisers took all 4 out (along with some land t3 turrets). They also had a colossus coming in and so I built a 3monkeylords to take him out. The colossus continued to torture my ally and I killed him right before he took out my ally. I built a couple nukes and they sent in air groups and sent the cruisers back in. Angered I ended up nuking his cruisers so he built more and more. They decided to build some mavors and by this time the game was really laggy Laggy enough my fps was at like 1 frame every 10 seconds. (it was fairly bad mid game and grew). The game bugged several times durring this game and it happened again so we decided to just quit.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

well im sorry for that, but the next version should be less laggy and i probably fixed the bugs, too... if not, -debug should now work, the message display is turned off, because i think i know the source of the bug now.

v13
- Added Hydrocarbon Power Plant (T1)
- Added Mobile Bomb (T2)
- Added Mobile AA SAM Launcher (T3)
- Added Missile Carrier (T3)
- Added Land Raid Support (T3)
- Added lift force to projectiles
- Added -debug to fix a resource and damage bug (may already be fixed)
- Added -norush x for host
- Changed Mobile Light Artillery (T1) attack
- Changed Air Superiority Fighter (T3) attack
- Leavers will always be controlled by the ai
- Improved Artillery Installation (T3)
- Improved collision detection
- Improved projectile movement
- Improved missile defense management
- Improved range display, now only affects selected units and has a faster refresh rate
- Increased anti air precision
- Increased death damage delay
- Increased projectile limit
- Enabled resource trading
- Reduced CZAR (T4) size
- Reduced unit turn rates
- Fixed a leaver ai bug
- Fixed some tooltips
- Fixed some other bugs

thats the current changelog for version 13, ill probably just fix the fly height for units on cliffs (and the bullets hitting nothing, but dealing damage then), and perhaps i will add a feature that salvos choose other nearby targets if the first target dies

other things are wreckages, damage over time, nicknames and replacing the PauseUnit for buildings with the frost wyrm breath which stops unit production

however, those are some more work, so i dont know if they will find their way into the next version already

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

I'm sorry but I'm not playing against people who sit on their ass and attack. I'm playing skilled players who know how to use what they have.

i would love to play games like that... but i think i dont have really good enemies here...

by the way, cruisers are mainly anti air units... so its quite dumb to attack them with air... i experienced the best defense is a shield, tactical missile defenses and some t3 static artilleries, otherwise, mass submarines... you have a problem with the tactical missile attack of the cruisers right? just build some tactical missile defenses, 1-2 per cruiser
perhaps i can reduce the salvo size again, but increase damage, so that tactical missile defenses work even better against cruisers... cruiser AA is already weakened now by the way.
and in the next version, as in the tooltip, missile defenses are optimized, so they hit their targets better and so on, that may help against cruisers

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

sorry for triple post, for those who are annoyed by triple posts...

for the others:
the new version is now released, i updated all maps to version 13, you can download them now and read the complete changelog, like always on:
Supreme Commander

 

[TM-Magic]

Ok sounds good I guess. We'll see. My main problem with the cruiser is its lack of counters. The thing about the naval units is...not everyone always gets them and the one person that does or the one person who controls a bigger fleet, dominates the game. End of story. Artillery are very easily dodged, especially by longer ranged units like the cruiser and although the missile defense is good at defending against it, it cannot kill the cruisers, so instead of killing the ones that attack, you sit there being bombarded while they build more and more.

The game has kind of turned into a game where you cannot not have a navy. So I suppose my problem with cruiser is its aa ability actually which isn't actually a cruiser problem, but an air unit problem. They don't fly around, and due to a top speed of 520, they're easily killed.

So this can all be summed up this way:
If a player builds Cruisers, here are your options...

1) Attack them by ground...results in a loss in resources since they don't have the range.

2)Attack them by sea...results are good, however, torpedo boats/subs counter subs/boats really well, so if they're escorted, its a bad idea.

3) Attack them by air...cruiser, like you said, is an aa unit and that's just foolish.

4) Defend yourself with missile defenses and artillery...artillery shoots slowly and are easily avoided and tactical missiles don't really solve the problem, they just put up a protective layer to stop the missiles, but not the boats.

Usually when this happens (when my opponents have 12 or more cruisers with the ability to rapidly build anything due to having 12 naval factories), they also build a massive amount of T2 missile launchers...which means you need even more tactical defenses. And while your building all of these defenses, your enemy is also teching to t3 to get battleships which your defense has no chance against since they have a much higher range than any other T3 unit.

Anyways. That was my rant for today. Tune in next week...

I've somehow formed this supcom possy that keeps asking me to host, so it is picking up in popularity, but then again you still get a few people that are like "this is NOTHING like the real game!" and leaves expecting it to be perfectly like it in every way. Funny thing is, they wait to leave until they see me sending a couple of units (even crappy units).

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

you are assuming a situation where the enemy has:

12 naval factories on tech 2
12 cruisers

you have:

nothing

i think its clear he should win, isnt it? and supreme commander is more than just reacting... you should send scouts during the whole game, and see that he is building naval factories... as a counter, build bombers and kill the factories as long as his base there is unprotected, otherwise build a lot of submarines or something like that, cause if he builds some anti air and anti building ships, too, you will win if you pay the same price + you will have submarines left -> sea control, if he build only anti-naval units he has no advance, and if you are a better playe than him, you can build air at the same time and rush him, kill some of his resources, so you can beat his naval force due to the better economy

 

[TM-Magic]

Sigh...seeing as no one seems to be on myside, I'll give you a replay the next time it happens. (may be a while tho, I'm not at home and won't be for a while).

Your also assuming my enemy is a poor player. If you didn't, you'd already know he has enough radar to see any advances and since the cruisers have massive range, can shoot down any bombers. Second, your also assuming his cruisers haven't dominated that whole half of the map already. 12 Cruisers are more than enough to make it so your opponent can't build naval...period.

Also with 12 T2 naval factories, you would have to have somehow out produce him. If your a smart player, you keep late game in mind and have a contingency plan, so you can't always put ALL of your resources towards navy.



Let me restate all of this...yet again.
An enemy sends up to 12 bombers bombers to your base...you can easily counter by building even just a couple AA tanks or AA turrets, but it destroys part of your base and you learn from your lesson...This makes the attacker feel good about destroying buildings and the defender for living and knowing how to defend himself for next time.

An enemy sends a legion of land units. Well...you have a lot of options here I'm sure your well aware. Usually you already have some defense up and if you don't, you can quickly build units to counter them.

There are a lot of steps to make sure your not over run by land units or air units...and even if you didn't prepare yourself for it ahead of time, its not hard to muster up the force to do so when you see an attack on the way.

As for navy, however, you have absolutely nothing to prepare with...The only option is to also get navy...Seems kind of foolish doesn't it? Everything has a high array of counters...except naval units...

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

Everything has a high array of counters...except naval units...

i think thats true, naval has less counters... but can i do about it? weaken naval units damage? well they could still bombard other units, would be annoying, but more expensive per damage.. wouldnt be that funny to have something not-to-counter, but still not doing a lot damage...

other options is reducing hp, could be possible, but cruisers already have low hp, so... and if he has a really good fleet you wont even do a single shot on them

reducing range, imho that isnt a very good idea either, cause naval units wont be able to attack much more then other naval units and perhaps some units near water, but they wont help to attack a base very much... besides that, ships are long-ranged in reality, too, i would like to keep it this way

or we could add counters, increase the torpedo bomber damage perhaps
btw, did you try the amphibous tanks against enemy fleets? you can build them on the land and they cant be attacked by torpedoes, which is useful when the enemy masses torpedo boats

other non-naval counters could be static tactic missile launcher with a low firing frequency but very high damage and range, so it does high damage against single targets (should fire salvos then to overwhelm cruisers tactical missile def), or, if the enemy masses destroyers as a water-surface-defense, some submergable land units would be nice...

you should try these counters first, just ideas, but they could work:

cruisers + torpedo boats + submarines:
amphibious tanks

cruisers + destroyers:
amphinious tanks (?), this combination seems to be deadly, BUT he will have one of the ships first, if you manage to recognize it early, you can kill the cruiser with a quick transport and amphibious tanks, kill a destroyer with any kind of bombers (however, would still be better to have another counter), submarines are useful here, but only, if you dont loose the sea for all times

mass cruisers:
submarines, amphibious tanks, destroyers, torpedo boats, even mass frigates work here, cause cruisers have like same HP as frigates

ah, and another tweak idea: i can make the artillery aim into the moving direction of units, like some other units already do, flak for example, and then reduce the cruisers speed, they would have a higher chance to hit the target, but perhaps artillery will get imba then

im not interested in a battle of if cruisers are too strong or if they arent, i just dont want to make them worthless either, thats just another kind of "imba"

looking forward to read your answer

EDIT: ah by the way, you are right, there are people saying "this map is nothing like real supcom", but i can actually take that as a compliment, too... cause for most warcraft maps you cant even expect that its like meant to be, though in my map they first think: "wow this probably is like the original, i will do the same as in the original, this IS the original, nothing else can be", and later: "oh this isnt the exact original, this is just a bad fake"... if you know what i mean^^ in fact, this is very much like real supcom^^

EDIT2: also, theres no useful static defense against navel units, only the t1 torpedo launcher, but it has lower range than every t2 ship, and a defense with the range of the cruiser would be impossible... the other way around there already IS a defense against the cruiser rockets, so the anti-ground attack of cruisers is something you could live with (only annoying for advancing armies, you would need transporters there and fly around the cruisers AA range (reducing it could also be a good idea))

 

[TM-Magic]

I haven't tried amphibious units on naval units, it just never crossed my mind...they seemed to do fairly little damage so I only really used them once. (people use them to get past my defense all the time and their easily killed by land units) but perhaps they would be perfect for cruisers...

I would like to see artillery that aims where the unit is going to be instead of where they are...it makes them useless...and I mean USELESS against moving targets. (I've seen T4 units get right up and in my shields without taking a shot from over a dozen T3 artillery...so that would help a lot).

As for the cruisers, perhaps upping the time cost a bit...maybe resource cost slightly depending and add more torpedo range from the torpedo defense?

mass cruisers:
submarines, amphibious tanks, destroyers, torpedo boats, even mass frigates work here, cause cruisers have like same HP as frigates

If your balancing units like naval units...ones that can't access the whole map and who are produced only on the same terrain, you can assume that it is possible for a player to dominate that area. So what I'm saying is, if your trying to counter a naval unit, you can't rely on a naval unit for a counter. You need other, outside counters. So in a lot of cases, submarines, destroyers, torpedo boats, and frigates cannot be used. I'm going to try the amphibious tanks out when I get back home and see how it goes and report back.

 

[Skullclaimer]

think thats true, naval has less counters... but can i do about it?

I would like to add an idea for a navy counter: t2 or t3 subs. But we still get to the same point of limited building slots. As for that I'm clueless sorry...

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

I would like to add an idea for a navy counter: t2 or t3 subs. But we still get to the same point of limited building slots. As for that I'm clueless sorry...

you forgot that subs themselves are naval units and should not be considered as a counter. especially as t2 or t3 units are hard to produce if you have an enemy which bombards your t1 naval factories already.

i added a new units to the game now: T2 Tactical Missile Launcher, works like the T4 Strategic Missile Launcher, however, only deals 6k damage in a small area, and a t2 torpedo launcher, twice dps and more range than the t1 counterpart... defensive structures for t1 and t2 are now merged into the defense frame, which can be upgraded to the desired defense type

artillery is aiming into the movement path now, too.

EDIT: now the t3 artillery can be built with a t2 worker and a new, stronger t3 artillery has been added

 

[Skullclaimer]

Umm, thats how I use higher end submarines in the Forged Alliance. They are pretty much useless against anything else than naval forces and in the original game they are intended as a naval counter. They are still fragile despite the fact that they are higher tiered, only carrying one or two extra torpedo launchers and a torpedo defence system. In the t1 phase subs are the only valid naval defence anyway, I don't see how it would affect the game play if they were to be carried to tier 2 phase. Its up to you if you wish to keep it like that or not in your map however...

Also today I had a chance to test v13 and the new AI taking over players that left the game. I had one cruiser that destroyed almost all his t1 waves before he could approach my base. A cruiser should not really devastate t1 land units just by itself in my opinion. Maybe you should give them a non homing missile attack?

The new stuff(v13) works great except I could never place down a t1 geothermal powerplant. I assume you may only place them on mass deposits? Erm, that creates quite a challange right over there: Whether to place down a mass ext or power plant. And since power is incredibly cheap to produce I don't see how people would go for a geothermal in t1.

I realise this is not a 100% supreme commander conversion and you have taken the initiative to change a couple of things from the original game in this adaptation. So the above is just my 2 cents...

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

first, the AI is dumb and is more something which sends you samething to shoot on^^

t2 subs? i added the torpedo boats instead, because i didnt see a counter for t2 submarines except for t2 submarines, perhaps torpedo bombers, but torpedoboats defeinetaly have more counters and still should be effective against other torpedo-type units like submarines, or when escorted, some backup for fighting other destroyers

cruisers still too strong? well the non-homing missile attack is a good idea, i will think about it

the t1 hydrocarbon powerplant can be placed on hydrocarbon, thats something like mass, but only allows to build hydrocarbon powerplants on it... due to a "bug" or whatever, you can only build it from the left or from the bottom, if your builder stands right to the hydrocarbon it doesnt work somehow...

current v14 changes:

v14
- Added Torpedo Launcher (T2)
- Added Tactical Missile Launcher (T2)
- Added Heavy Artillere Installation (T3)
- Added a cooldown to the Strategic Missile Launcher (T4)
- Added hotkeys for experimental units
- Added lightning attacks
- Moved Artillery Installation (T3) to T2
- Changed Air Superiority Fighter (T3) attack
- Merged Point Defense (T1), AA Turret (T1) and Torpedo Launcher (T1) to Defense Frame (T1)
- Merged Point Defense (T2), AA Flak Artillery (T2), Torpedo Launcher (T2) and Tactical Missile Defense (T2) to Defense Frame (T2)
- Replaced Mavor (T4) with Salvation (T4)
- Range circles are now also displayed under the terrain
- Artilleries now aim into the movement path of their targets
- Fixed Fatboy (T4) Hitpoints
- Fixed -info

and the non-homing cruiser missile has a good chance to join the list

 

[Skullclaimer]

Nice change log, keep it up this map keeps getting better and better.

If you are curious about the counters to t2 and t3 subs I can tell you that in Forged Alliance a torpedo boat can single handedly take down 2 or sometimes 3 t2 subs just by itself. Because it has torpedo defences it is hard to take it down with subs so this makes it a good unit to counter subs with. You already implemented a nice torpedo defence system so this shouldnt be hard to pull off. Also it is possible to just use a shield boat to shield torpedo boats against subs.

Also based on my experiance today, the missile defence feels slightly off just because the incoming missiles are way too fast for the defences to act appropiately. Sometimes they end up shooting at the air because the missile they were intercepting already landed on something.

One another thing, I haven't encountered that income and damage bug that plagued the earlier version. Only played the map twice but it seems to be gone so far.

For Hydrocarbon plant, I suggest a graphic change to differentiate it from mass deposits (if possible).

By the way, I know this is like poking the same problem over and over, but can you make it so that t3 factories can build whatever t1 factories can build with extra speed? Something like keeping all t1 units in 1 page and t2 units at another etc etc. I hate to lose the ability to build t1 medium tanks when I tech up to t2. I could just mass t1 medium tanks with t2 factories in a more efficient way instead. Also opens up more strategic options for the game (such as massing weak units or teching up?).

@Tm-Magic

I realise we are kinda a pair of guys who love this map and as we are the only ones voicing our opinion here please don't take it the wrong way if I don't agree with what you say.

That said,

I would like to see artillery that aims where the unit is going to be instead of where they are...it makes them useless...and I mean USELESS against moving targets.

I would like to take a stand and disagree here. Artillery should be good enough to hit slow moving targets (such as galactic colossus) but not good at tracking to be able to hit fast and weak units such as t1 or t2 units. Hell if it can nail a land scout right on before it can reach your base that's some nice laser precision artillery! The point of artillery is to slow down enemy massive armies by landing a shot right in the middle of the army itself, not annihilating them totally before they reach your base. That would create a perfect TD game, just build artillery and let them come. If you have more artillery support then incoming enemy units, you win!

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

Nice change log, keep it up this map keeps getting better and better.

thx

If you are curious about the counters to t2 and t3 subs I can tell you that in Forged Alliance a torpedo boat can single handedly take down 2 or sometimes 3 t2 subs just by itself. Because it has torpedo defences it is hard to take it down with subs so this makes it a good unit to counter subs with. You already implemented a nice torpedo defence system so this shouldnt be hard to pull off.

hm im not sure if there are slots left, but anyways, i only have one submarine model, that could be hard to see if its a t1, t2 or t3 sub now... actually i would like t2 submarines too, but... t1 are quite good either and if the enemy has low torpedo defense, then 10 of them can do much damage too, even if the enemy has t2 or t3 ships

Also based on my experiance today, the missile defence feels slightly off just because the incoming missiles are way too fast for the defences to act appropiately. Sometimes they end up shooting at the air because the missile they were intercepting already landed on something.

which version was it? v13? because in this version defense already was improved.. if it really was v13 then i will probably have to slow down missiles

One another thing, I haven't encountered that income and damage bug that plagued the earlier version. Only played the map twice but it seems to be gone so far.

yep i think i fixed it

For Hydrocarbon plant, I suggest a graphic change to differentiate it from mass deposits (if possible).

i didnt find a fitting model, but if you know one, tell me

By the way, I know this is like poking the same problem over and over, but can you make it so that t3 factories can build whatever t1 factories can build with extra speed? Something like keeping all t1 units in 1 page and t2 units at another etc etc. I hate to lose the ability to build t1 medium tanks when I tech up to t2. I could just mass t1 medium tanks with t2 factories in a more efficient way instead. Also opens up more strategic options for the game (such as massing weak units or teching up?).

i cant do much about it, and... well t1 factories arent that expensive, and if you really want to mass, you would build more than one factory anyways.. dont know, but for me it works just fine

The point of artillery is to slow down enemy massive armies by landing a shot right in the middle of the army itself, not annihilating them totally before they reach your base. That would create a perfect TD game, just build artillery and let them come. If you have more artillery support then incoming enemy units, you win!

could be done wiht less precise artillery, right?

 

[Skullclaimer]

You can just use the same model for t2 subs but a larger size and maybe a slightly different colour?

The missile defence thing was for v13, yes. Either slow down missiles or increase the missile defence range (slightly!). That could also work.

The idea of having t2 factories building t1 units is that they build it way more efficient and faster than t1 factories. I realise its hard work, but just saying it would be perfect.

As for artillery, well the artillery precision is a troublesome part to fine-tune. Only the mavor should have pinpoint accurcy, the rest should lag in precision just a bit so that fast units wont be bothered but slow and large t3 and t4 units will. (Another reason to mass weak units instead of teching up)

As you see, the strategic options keep increasing with each change log. Which is the best thing a map can have.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

tactical missiles are slower now

forget about the t2 factories building t1 units

artillery wont hit moving targets anymore, they should not destroy single targets in a long range like cruisers, but cruiser missiles are slower now, defense is easier, it does no longer aim, well i think it is okay now...

and for anti-cruiser units: if you dont want your enemy to get sea-power, build submarines in the beginning, before he has some fleet... in the original supcom submarines work really well

probably i will add t2 subs, too, now (if the torpedo boat is a good counter to them)

 

[TM-Magic]

Wow...so it looks like I missed a lot. I haven't been home to check the map and I've been a little busy here too so.

When I was talking about the artillery thing, I was comparing it to a T4 unit...In the game I was refering to, my enemy sent 2 monkeylords who both got past 20+ artillery unscratched...They shouldn't be inaccurate enough not to hit a target unless it completely stops. I would agree that faster units should be able to slip by, by only barely so that units with medium speed get damaged slightly and slower units take plenty of damage. (I'm not sure how big the difference is in speeds between the techs but lower tech shouldn't necessarily be faster, but smaller so they're harder to pinpoint. When I say this, I'm thinking of Total Annihilation...lower tech units were about the same speed (slightly faster), but were smaller and harder to hit. What the real shame here is, is the warcraft top speed of 522...it really craps on the situation hardcore and the only way to really fix it is to scale everything down by massive amounts so that the speed is relatively fast.

As for the factories producing lower tech units...I love that aspect, but as a fellow mapper, I can sympathize and say...that's not going to happen...too much work for a semi-small gain. I would like to see wreckages tho That was my most favorite part about Total annihilation...you send some tanks in, 3 die and your 4th takes cover behind them and annihilates your enemy...what an awesome concept.

I was going to ask about the T2 Point defense but it looks like you covered it. So it's going to upgrade out of the T1 point defense without tech requirements...it's different from the real game but I like it. It'll give people who haven't gotten t2 yet to defend themselves against t2 units if they can afford it...so it makes them not necessarily have to tech up early on to counter a T2 attack force.

I would also like to see aircraft fly over its target and swing back around to strike....but I'm not sure how that'd fair on the system...it may lag heavily. But that would balance air out a lot...but again I'm not sure how demanding that would be on your computer...my dad did just double my memory capabilities tho...I'm at 4gb memory ^^. We'll see how that goes.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

to the artillery issue: well i would like the artillery to defend against experimentals, too, but... very long range artilleries, with a long flight time, then aim a long distance in front of the target unit, and possibly in your own army or out of the map.. dont know, perhaps aiming into the movement path is okay for T2 artillery, but any higher results in problems

I would like to see wreckages tho That was my most favorite part about Total annihilation...you send some tanks in, 3 die and your 4th takes cover behind them and annihilates your enemy...what an awesome concept.

yeah would be nice, however, adding collision for wreckages would be too much probably... using them as a resource source would be nice, but, i dont know how to do the harvesting, i could do it as destructables or as units, both would be some work, and i would need to define wreckages for all units, find wreckage models and so on, so its a lot of work... if i had infinite time i would add that feature, but there are other things to do first

I was going to ask about the T2 Point defense but it looks like you covered it. So it's going to upgrade out of the T1 point defense without tech requirements...it's different from the real game but I like it. It'll give people who haven't gotten t2 yet to defend themselves against t2 units if they can afford it...so it makes them not necessarily have to tech up early on to counter a T2 attack force.

you understood it wrong, there is a unit "Defense Frame (T1)" now, it can upgrade to a point defense, anti-air defense and torpedo launcher... for T2 theres a Defense Frame (T2), which can be upgraded to the T2 counterparts + the tactical missile defense (made it possible to add a t2 torpedo launcher, t2 tactical missile launcher and t2 artillery)

I would also like to see aircraft fly over its target and swing back around to strike....but I'm not sure how that'd fair on the system...it may lag heavily. But that would balance air out a lot...but again I'm not sure how demanding that would be on your computer...my dad did just double my memory capabilities tho...I'm at 4gb memory ^^. We'll see how that goes.

i tried it some times, and performance is not what i am breaking my mind on (if you can say that^^)
the problem are shift-orders... if i want to keep them then i can only base my movement system on the standard movement, however, if i move the planes manually warcraft sometimes doesnt recognize that the checkpoint already has been reached and returns to fly over it again and again... if you have any idea about that, tell me... i gave up on this, though i would really love to see this in the game, too

what about air in general? do you think AA is too strong or something like that? do i need to make AA less precise? or reduce damage? or splash for T2 AA, thats probably too strong

 

[Skullclaimer]

The t2 AA in the game (supcom) fires a lot slower than t1 AA but it deals splash damage (doesn't cover a lot of area for splash). Although since the air units do not circle around I would agree with splash being too powerful. As for air units in general, the t3 ground sam made it easier to counter air. I dont think there should be a ground t3 sam unit whatsoever. The t2 variant was enough to cover air assaults.

As for air path maybe you could issue a patrol order everytime an air unit attacks a unit. The patrol point would be the distance of the target to the unit on the opposite direction. For example:

A= Air unit
T= Target
.= empty space
P= Patrol point

A...T...P

So it would travel back and forth between those 2 points and bomb anything between, no?

 

[hookah]

I cant plant Hydrocarbon Power Plant .
Fatboys are too strong.
better ai would be nice.D

 

[Mechanical Man]

Looks good, but use some custom models. Is pretty annoying to control wc3 vehicles, catapults and balistas. Mr.Bob made some nice models for this kind of game.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

The t2 AA in the game (supcom) fires a lot slower than t1 AA but it deals splash damage (doesn't cover a lot of area for splash). Although since the air units do not circle around I would agree with splash being too powerful. As for air units in general, the t3 ground sam made it easier to counter air. I dont think there should be a ground t3 sam unit whatsoever. The t2 variant was enough to cover air assaults.

maybe its a bit too strong currently, i will have to weaken the T2 and T3 mobile AA, and other AA also, perhaps...

As for air path maybe you could issue a patrol order everytime an air unit attacks a unit. The patrol point would be the distance of the target to the unit on the opposite direction. For example:

A= Air unit
T= Target
.= empty space
P= Patrol point

A...T...P

So it would travel back and forth between those 2 points and bomb anything between, no?

no it would not, it would just move to the first unit and attack it... only if i made bombers attacks passive, so they would fire while moving, but then you couldnt control the targets very well, besides that, same problem as with shift orders

you cant place hydrocarbon: i already told that you have to do it from the left or the bottom, it somehow doesnt work from other directions and i dont know how to fix it

better ai: ai is hard to do, and imho the ai is already good enough, it beats most public players on northrend... even though i wished the human players would be better

custom models: no, they make the map huge, and given i use custom models, i would have to use custom models everywhere... plus the custom models for warcraft are low-quality most, i like high-quality warcraft models more

 

[Mechanical Man]

Not really the size of the map wouldn't increase much since that kind of models are low in size (imo half of mb all needed) and about quality, everything is so low scaled so the lack of quality wouldn't be visible from the current view. Of course I don't mean bob's crappy dwarven vehicles (which are pretty shitty tbh)

Btw, is there selectable difficulty of ai?, it seems to pwn me at every level, at least until I get minus in both resources xd

 

[hookah]

Not really the size of the map wouldn't increase much since that kind of models are low in size (imo half of mb all needed) and about quality, everything is so low scaled so the lack of quality wouldn't be visible from the current view. Of course I don't mean bob's crappy dwarven vehicles (which are pretty shitty tbh)

Btw, is there selectable difficulty of ai?, it seems to pwn me at every level, at least until I get minus in both resources xd

its easy too beat ai as ai wont tech to t3.

 

[TM-Magic]

Sigh. Again a lot to read :/

Wreckage - Yeh I'm not sure how to do the collisions, but you wouldn't necessarily need a different model for each one, sure it wouldn't look as good, but the game play would change pretty good. You could just make 3 wreckage types for each tech (for 3 different levels of mass back depending on the amount of "left over" mass). But yeh it would be a lot of work, I'd concentrate on fixing more minor things before I get into anything like that, if at all.

Defense Frames - Sounds a lot better Definitely a good call.

Building Lower Tech - Idk if you'd want to do this, I'm sure you've thought about it, but if you want say a T2 engineer to produce T1 buildings, you could have a "switch builders" button that removes a builder and recreates a duplicate with a different set of builds...Would probably mess with AI a LOT and I'm not sure how much you really want that in...just a thought.

Air Movement - There is a way to detect rally points isn't there? You could just set it so that after it destroys a target, attacks/moves to the rally. But yeh, I'm not at home and I can't check that for ya.

Air Balances - Idk I'm pretty much a perfect perfectionist when it comes to balancing and I can notice a lot of minor issues after a few games of play, and there are a LOT of issues (minor ones) and fixing them all would take a lot of playing and tweaking. Your air units are fairly balanced, but if you want to improve them, lower aa damage slightly (VERY SLIGHTLY).
Do you want help balancing? I'd be willing to give it a go and submit it back to you (without spreading it).


One thing I really hate about this game (not your map, but supcom in general), is the difference between techs. Like 1 t2 unit can take down like half a dozen t1 units. Likewise, half a dozen t2 units would be annihilated by 1 t3 unit. Idk, it just messes with gameplay a bit by comparison to Total Annihilation. You aimed to create SupCom, and it turned out really well, but I don't see how SupCom will ever be as good as TA. Which is why I want to make TA
So is there any chance I can take a look see?

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

models: give me links to some good models and i will think about it again, but probably not... any other opinions to that one?

wreckages: so they will wait

building t1 with t2: the "morhping" of units isnt a very clean solution, and different t2 builders wouldnt be selected via doubleclick.. another problem is the resource engine etc, every single unit has like 30 variables attached to it, and i think it would cause problems if i just replaced a unit, dont know, but for me it doesnt have a high importance (as higher tech units are better generally)

air movement: no, wont work, and didnt find any other way yet, so... will have to wait, too

air balance: mobile AA damage is reduced, but i first want to get the new version released before i go on to the fine tuning, and i need more opinions and tests for it

tech difference: higher tech units are way better, yes, but it would be a lot of work to rebalance all units, so this will either have to wait or never come... however, AA is ok to counter one tech-level higher, submarines can counter higher tech naval units, hgher tech ground can be countered by massing mobile artillery (t1) or then building t2 point defenses, tactical missile defs and t2 static artillery. however i still agree higher tech units are way stronger, i would reduce the difference a bit, too, but for now thats too much work, and as teching up requires some time, it doesnt seem to be a big problem and every tech level can help you if used correctly (though t1 light tanks are a bit weak, in mass they can kill a commander, too)

you want to take a look at the map? its totally unprotected, you can just open it in the editor and see everything

 

[Skullclaimer]

Maybe you could increase the time and resources it takes to tech up? That could solve the balance issue. And I still feel that mass extractors upgrade way too fast, maybe you could reduce the upgrading process just a bit?

Also what do you think about raising the food cap? Is it going to stay at 100 forever? Will it also be possible to add new ways to end the game such as "Supremecy mode" from supcom? I hate how the game ends when commander dies...

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

increasing time to tech up: thought about it, too, but its not very fast currently either

mass extractors upgrade too fast? hmm in supcom they are slower, but you can assist them with workers (thats what i do normally)... dont know, i think it will stay this way.. at least for now

rasining the foodlimit? no, at least not until lagg is reduced... perhaps i could change the limit to a complete limit of limit of 800 units instead... but well, if all players really use the foodlimit completely, it will lagg very hard

supremecy mode? dont know it, but... well the commander as a key unit is the standard game mode in the original game, too... i will try to add another mode, just seems like i will have to add another dialog at startup then... or i will change the mode selection in some way

 

[Skullclaimer]

I always play in supremacy or annihilation mode at supcom because otherwise people target-kill commander easily. In supremacy mode you lose when you have no remaining engineers and factories but at annihilation you lose when you have no units whatsoever.

The thing is, this map already plays faster than original supcom so I think you can add stuff like increasing time to tech up or making ext upgrade slower to maybe lengthen the gameplay.

As for foodlimit, it could be raised to 200 if there are no AI in the game because AI is a major contributor to lag so far.

 

[TM-Magic]

Ok first of all, when I was talking about how I hate how the techs are so different, I didn't mean it should be changed, since it's how the real game is. I was just remarking, saying it's part of what I really like about TA over supcom. And wow, so it's not protected lol. Coulda fooled me. I'm definitely going to take a look when I get back home

Also, when I talk about how high tech is so powerful, I don't mean its necessarily unbalanced. Increasing costs wouldn't balance it, it would actually unbalance it.

On the same note, things can also be considered unbalanced when they are too extreme in differences (if the costs of units compared to usefulness of the unit is too extreme I consider it to be unbalanced, which is why I consider SupCom to be unbalanced...but in relevance to your map, it's fine, since your trying to make it as real, but as fun, as possible.)

In short, don't change it...lol.


And if it's not too much to ask, I do like the idea of more possibilities. Supremacy and Annihilation modes sound like a good idea, would be nice to be able to choose between having AI take over someone who leaves and having it given to the players. (I personally like the idea of both and it would be nice to be able to choose).

I can't wait to get back and play...I will have a lot more memory to work with...5gb from 2gb

I agree that the mass extractors do feel like the upgrade faster, but you did good lowering it since you can't send workers to help it...but then again...doesn't this increase the negative yield in resources? What I mean is, doesn't it take resources faster for it? I have felt like that is too fast.

Btw, if your looking for a way to make units/upgrade stuff "outside" of the factory (so you can have workers help it), couldn't you have a trigger create an invisible worker that starts construction of the unit being built, remove the worker, then have the construction work like a building?
What I wanted to do for my TA was to make a certain building or invisible building with a factory that is in essence the builder of the unit so that it builds like a building and can have workers help out...I'm not sure if it would work and it would definately be tricky...just a thought.

I do like teh 100 food limit...In something like warcraft, where the units create a lot more delay than in most games, people aren't going to be mass producing a ton of units, so it's good to cap it off so that some new player doesn't sit there and mass a million T1 bombers to try and take out a dozen T3 aa turrets...I've seen someone do this with 100 and it lagged pretty good so...

As for the wreckages, well, If you didn't care too much about how it looked, you could just pick a wc3 model, blacken it, then set it's flying height to a higher negative number (so that it sinks in the ground a bit)...but if you do then yeh, I suppose it would be hard to find a good model for all units.


By the way, did you ever fix the "freeze" when the host doesn't select a mode? (some people go afk in the load screen...yeh I know...) I've gotten people come in and spam "DON'T PLAY THIS IT'S BROKEN" and leave...and I've gotten others that say "hey, isn't this version broken?" and I have to tell them whats up. So if it hasn't been fixed, it may be something to consider if you want a wider audience.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

And if it's not too much to ask, I do like the idea of more possibilities. Supremacy and Annihilation modes sound like a good idea, would be nice to be able to choose between having AI take over someone who leaves and having it given to the players. (I personally like the idea of both and it would be nice to be able to choose).

im thinking about a change in the game mode selection menu... it will look something like this:

Select Options

Mode: Assasination
Prebuilt: None
Team Size: 2
Lock Teams: Disabled
No Rush: Disabled
Leaver-AI: Disabled

then you will be able to click on one of the buttons to change the value
for the no rush timer, you wont be able to specify a precise time, but choose from Disabled / 5 minutes / 15 minutes / 30 minutes or something like that
i will need to increase the intro time then, probably (just slowing down the cam pan)

I agree that the mass extractors do feel like the upgrade faster, but you did good lowering it since you can't send workers to help it...but then again...doesn't this increase the negative yield in resources? What I mean is, doesn't it take resources faster for it? I have felt like that is too fast.

yes, they use very much resources... hm it really could be a good idea to change it

Btw, if your looking for a way to make units/upgrade stuff "outside" of the factory (so you can have workers help it), couldn't you have a trigger create an invisible worker that starts construction of the unit being built, remove the worker, then have the construction work like a building?
What I wanted to do for my TA was to make a certain building or invisible building with a factory that is in essence the builder of the unit so that it builds like a building and can have workers help out...I'm not sure if it would work and it would definately be tricky...just a thought.

i thought about something like that too, but you are right its tricky, and a lot of work, so i skipped and skipped it ^^ and i will skip it again, dont know whether it ever will be implemented

100 food - yes
wreckages - no, much work

By the way, did you ever fix the "freeze" when the host doesn't select a mode? (some people go afk in the load screen...yeh I know...) I've gotten people come in and spam "DON'T PLAY THIS IT'S BROKEN" and leave...and I've gotten others that say "hey, isn't this version broken?" and I have to tell them whats up. So if it hasn't been fixed, it may be something to consider if you want a wider audience.

i dont know the exact circumstances, however, i will take a look at it when i add the new mode chooser (if the new mode chooser is okay for you^^)



ah, by the way, i removed the leaver-ai for now.. could add it again as a special option, but currently leavers are handled differently:
all units are removed (less lagg), and the income is divided to the allies, so if there are two players, both with the same income, one player leaves, the other one get twice the income then (radar etc is still active for the leaver)
this prevents that a player leaves when his commander is being destroyed, just to divide his units so they wont die, and it doesnt make sniping leaver commanders useless

 

[Skullclaimer]

for the new game mode selection menu. Those modes will make it more fun to play.

Also about extractors, that is pretty much why I think they need to be slowed down. They can cripple your economy, try upgrading a mass ext to t3 in the middle of a fight.

About the intro, can you make it so that it loops after a point(and possibly make it less laggy on burial mounds)? That would make it so that the game could only start after host clicks "start" or something. Would eliminate the game freeze that happens when host is afk or something.

 

[TM-Magic]

Yeh, I think that's a perfect way of doing the menu. After I take a look at the map, I'll see if I can help you out with some of those systems. I don't know jass, but I think my GUI is pretty good. We'll see if I can pull it off.

At first glance, the wreckages don't seem like they'd be all that difficult...maybe I'm not seeing it the same way. What I was thinking of, is having it so when a unit dies, it creates a metallic metal unit or doodad. That unit or doodad, when struck, takes damage but destroys the missile and with enough damage, decays to the second corpse. Then after that takes enough damage, decays to a lesser corpse that provides no protection, but can be salvaged for a lower gain. (the lesser corpse can also take damage if struck and can be destroyed).

Then again, I don't know how your missiles are set up. If they're set up to detonate on contact with anything or if they strike a certain unit or what. I have noticed that they are destroyed when they make contact with terrain...I'm not sure how you did that (which is why I want to look at it

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

At first glance, the wreckages don't seem like they'd be all that difficult...maybe I'm not seeing it the same way. What I was thinking of, is having it so when a unit dies, it creates a metallic metal unit or doodad. That unit or doodad, when struck, takes damage but destroys the missile and with enough damage, decays to the second corpse. Then after that takes enough damage, decays to a lesser corpse that provides no protection, but can be salvaged for a lower gain. (the lesser corpse can also take damage if struck and can be destroyed).

the collision would be laggy with too many wreckages, currently only the target unit is checked for collision... and harvesting these wreckages is another problem... and the model is one, too.. i gave up on collision, so only model and harvesting are the problems, but those arent easy to solve, too... (because of my resource system there... i could do it, but would be a lot of work)

Then again, I don't know how your missiles are set up. If they're set up to detonate on contact with anything or if they strike a certain unit or what. I have noticed that they are destroyed when they make contact with terrain...I'm not sure how you did that (which is why I want to look at it

a temporary location is moved to the X / Y coordinates, and then, via GetLocationZ(loc) i get the terrain height, i check whether the terrain is higher than the bulletZ, and if thats true, i got a terrain collision

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

what do you think about changing the food limit in a different way? i could increase it to 150, but then let buildings use food, too... thats how it is done in supreme commander as far as i know, and it would prevent players from massing low tech generators and so on, which is as laggy as massing tech 1 bots or something like that.... so what do you think? i would probably prefer buildings using food

 

[TM-Magic]

I agree, buildings should use food...a lot of people end up mass producing one unit type...even shitty unit types.

I suppose you can only get the terrain height with Jass?

And yeh, I suppose I wasn't thinking about the collection of it. Again, I don't know how your resources work exactly. In mine I was making 3 variables, one for building types and the other 2 for their resource costs. Then I was thinking of using life drain and giving back a certain % a second back of those amounts.

But yeh your collisions would be fucked, which is why I liked the idea, so that's definitely out.

 

[Skullclaimer]

Uggh, if you can afford not to do it don't. In supcom the default food limit is 500. It is 100 in your map. I don't see how increasing it to 150 would help in this case. Due to my playing style I tend to build a lot of crammed in buildings with shields overlapping for protection (pretty much my tactic in supcom too). This means me, and people playing like me, will get irritated at this. You might just say that I'll never be able to build 50 buildings in one map but it still irks me off.

Also, what is wrong with massing t1 bots? It does work if you do it properly. Well maybe not bots but t1 tanks work good in masses. Forget that, massing units against an experimental works wonders and is pretty much how t4 can be countered. Massing low tech units is a solid strategy in Forged alliance. A guy named Sorian made an AI mod that never ever techs up, but keeps sending you t1 units wave after wave. I must admit it can be quite challenging.

I would rather not lose the ability to swarm people with lower tech units but since its still warcraft and there are engine limitations (such as lag) I can sympathise here. Just my 2 cents...

As for wreckages, if it is that much work you can just skip it. I do agree that in TA wreckages had more an important role as tm-magic suggests but in supcom its all about harnessing resources off units (with a t4 harvesting emphasis. Favourite action in supcom is bringing down an entire experimental then use its wreckage to power your own experimental *wink*). It really is not a big deal having them in the game or not. But if they wont be in then I suggest a tone down of experimentals slightly for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[TM-Magic]

For the record, my zergling blood map won't allow you to have more than 100 zerglings at a time. With 8 players, that is enough to lag the game significantly for some players. Having 500 would seriously kill the game. (And that is without too many outside calculations).

You cannot have all 500 units and generally there are a lot of minor differences between the real thing and the map that implies changes in certain balances. As a result, I don't see how T1 units could take down a T4 say monkeylord, with it's quick, splash attack. Lets face it, warcraft wasn't made to handle huge numbers of units and massing 80 t1 units is not going to ever have the same effect as massing 400 of them like in the real thing.

I do, however, see a strategy coming about which includes massing t1 units just to lag your opponents to death in the event they have a slower processor (like myself).

btw, I am curious to know how fast each of your processers are.

 

[Skullclaimer]

The ml is the easiest experimental to counter, especially because of its weak anti air capability. Massing air units to counter a ml is a valid tactic in the real game...

I never said the game has to have 500 units. In supreme commander each building eats one from the troop limit but it also have 500 troop limit. That was the point I was trying to make.

My processors are good enough to support Forged Alliance on medium sized maps. And this map rarely lags for me (Even if someone masses), except maybe when that volcano erupts in the burial grounds.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

some buildings use food now (defense, artillery, shields, stealth fields, radar), in short: every unit which can lagg on its own and can be massed around^^ however, the unit limit is still 100, cause i did not manage to raise it any further, but its ok the way it is now imho... the only problem could be defense costing food, but well, deffers normally dont build as much units as attackers anyways

btw i just wondered if the 6k-damage-tactical missiles can kill an experimental unit effectively

my processor: intel mobile 2ghz dual core (dont know the exact name, but its a laptop^^)

and, the reason why i am posting: i have some good news for you, the new version is nearly finished, i will just play like 2 test games and then release it, if there are no new bugs (but i played some test games already, so most bugs should be fixed)

heres the current changelog, dont know if i change something there, but this is what it looks like right now:

v14
- Added Torpedo Launcher (T2)
- Added Tactical Missile Launcher (T2)
- Added Submarine Hunter (T2)
- Added Stealth Field Generator (T2)
- Added Heavy Tank (T3)
- Added Heavy Artillery Installation (T3)
- Added Defense Frame (T1), upgrades to Point Defense (T1), AA Turret (T1) or Torpedo Launcher (T1)
- Added Defense Frame (T2), upgrades to Point Defense (T2), AA Flak Artillery (T2), Torpedo Launcher (T2), Tactical Missile Defense (T2) or Stealth Field Generator (T2)
- Added a cooldown to the Strategic Missile Launcher (T4)
- Added hotkeys for experimental units
- Added lightning attacks
- Added unit nicknames
- Added damage per second to -info
- Added 2x Defense Frame (T1) to prebuilt base
- Added the possibility to disable artillery
- Added a minimap signal to the target location of a nuclear missile
- Added Annihilation mode
- Added energy costs to Artillery Installation (T2)
- Added food cost for buildings excepting factories and ecenomy buildings
- Added Annihilation mode
- Added non-leaver-ai mode, where all mobile units are removed
- Changed resource board description
- Changed some effects
- Changed Air Superiority Fighter (T3) attack
- Changed AA Turret (T1) attack to a salvo instead of multishot
- Changed AA Turret (T1) and AA Flak Artillery (T2) models
- Changed range circles to be displayed under the terrain
- Changed Strategic Missile Submarine (T3) missiles to non-aiming
- Changed Artillery Installation (T3) to (T2)
- Changed Mavor (T4) to Salvation (T4) with a split-shot-attack
- Changed Cruiser (T2) to a stronger anti-air unit, but removed its missile launcher
- Changed ally resource trading per click
- Changed secondary weapon targeting so they will keep their targets when moving the unit
- Changed the AI to a more defensive strategy
- Changed game mode selection menu
- Changed veterancy bonus to be displayed as additional hitpoints
- Changed range display to fade in and out, now is also displayed for constructing structures
- Changed standard range display option to enabled
- Resources which cannot be hold in storages anymore are automatically divided to allies
- Increased Torpedo Boat (T2) range
- Increased Mass Extractor upgrade time
- Artillery no longer fires when it is not provided with enough energy
- Weakened Mobile AA Flak Artillery (T2) and Mobile AA SAM Launcher (T3)
- Slowed down tactical missiles
- Removed visible area around an attacker
- Fixed a high-speed-projectile collision bug
- Fixed an aiming rocket starting direction bug
- Fixed Fatboy (T4) Hitpoints
- Fixed -info

quite long this time

 

[Anachron]

Hey Naz,

I have played this a few times but I really suck at this map xD

I really need some hints for playing this since I think this map
is to advanced to be learned in a few games.

I am hoping for a good help

 

[TM-Magic]

Apparently my last post didn't go through, just as wel though, my computer won't turn on and I'm typing this from my PS3...hopefully it'll be fixed tomorrow so I can test the new tuff out


And yeh, a tutorial is on his list of things to do...I think...if not I'd be willing to help him out with it.

Here are my pointers/suggestions for playing

Start off with a couple extractors/generators and then get a factory out so you can produce a couple engineers to help construct things. (usualy I send a couple out to build extractors while I build generators with my ACU).

If there's absolutely one important thing to remember, it's the shift-click multi-command que. You can add waypoints and telll your builders to build a whole bunch of things by telling them to build while holding shift.

It's also important to tech up when ever you can, but only if you can support a higher tech. Building just a handful of extractors/generators may be able to support the t2 factory upgrade, but it won't be enough if you want to build while upgrading or while building units. It's very important to find a balance between teching/resources/defense/ and offense.

Radar is also very important. If you can see your enemy coming at you ahead of time, you can prepare and be ready for it. Also, if your radar allows, you can spy on your enemies and see their weaker spots for an attack.

And last but not least, this goes without saying, and should be done with every game. READ THE TOOLTIPS. I cannot stress this enough. I cannot telll you how many games of warcraft I've won because people just don't read the freain tooltips.

 

[N-a-z-g-u-l]

a tutorial can just teach the very basics, and he probably doesnt need to learn the basics, but more advanced things like using the terrain to block the enemy fire, decide whether to build a cruiser or destroyer when reaching t2 naval (i prefer cruiser first for vision, but only if there are no enemy naval forces, then i first build some t2 submarines)

by the way, i added a very neat feature which could help new players... as soon as you are producing more resources than you can hold, the unspent resources will be divided to your allies:
you can think of some glasses which are half full (not half empty ), then you divide your resources into them, as soon, as one "glass" cannot hold them anymore, these are again divided to the other players who can hold new resources... so everytime you produce more resources than you can hold, these resources are only lost when your whole team has enough of that resource (works for mass and energy both)

and Anachron: i really like that you like the map though you arent good at it, because thats what makes a map a good map, when not only the winners have fun playing it, but also those who are defeated during the game
btw, perhaps you have an idea how to make people stay in the game after they are defeated, theres this little neat cam mode already, and vision on the whole map, so they can learn from what the others do, and when i play online, most of the players who played well and chatted stayed ingame

 

[TM-Magic]

are you sure they don't stay because your the creator. I never have people stay...wel...maybe not never.

Btw I do like that idea of splitting resources. It is good for newer players, though it does change gameplay a little. I mean a team can op to have only 1 guy produce units while the other 3 builds economy, which makes it more of a team game I suppose.

 

[Skullclaimer]

Good stuff as always, cant wait to try...

v14
- Fixed Fatboy (T4) Hitpoints

I would like to draw your attention here. In my previous game there were experimental vs experimental battles all around and fatboys were just.... high tech tanks that never die. There were 3 fatboys on each side and every side kept repairing the fatboy resulting in an endless cycle of fatboy bombing. Now it was actually quite fun seeing experimentals fight each other (The battle also involved other t4) it was kinda weird how one fatboy backed up with 5 engineers can tank the fire of 4 or 5 fatboys comfortably.

I have saved the replay so if you wish to take a look I will send it to you.

 

[Anachron]

and Anachron: i really like that you like the map though you arent good at it, because thats what makes a map a good map, when not only the winners have fun playing it, but also those who are defeated during the game
btw, perhaps you have an idea how to make people stay in the game after they are defeated, theres this little neat cam mode already, and vision on the whole map, so they can learn from what the others do, and when i play online, most of the players who played well and chatted stayed ingame

Well I have just played vs bots (which are imba for beginners) and had to say that it looks amazing good but it is really hard to learn. Also it seems balanced for me, but I am really needing training.

I never played on bnet so I can't say people stay or leave.

I wouldn't change the resource system, as it is one of the main parts of an battle map.