StarCraft II Editor too hard for you?

You can't alienate the average gamer, amateur modder. A while back, you were the amateur modder, and if you, in your younger stages, were curious and decided to take a peek at the Galaxy Editor, you would have been driven out like it had herpes. This shouldn't happen.

Sure, i started off by exploring the World Editor. But the problem here is that some people even asked how to open the editor... We're not talking how really hard it is, we're talking how people find it that hard.

In fact, i'd say it's not hard at all. People make it look hard to learn. And that's why they should stick with WE.


And to crush your last statement, my friend started learning how to do everything in GE. And hell, he's doing a good job for a guy that never used a Blizzard Editor before.
 
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Not particularly. I was able to jump into the world editor and make custom maps almost instantly, when I was like 9 years old. Granted, they were pretty damn shitty maps, but at the very least I was able to easily understand how to use it.
Define "easily understand how to use it." Back in the day I managed to get the pocket factory ability on a building making a certain type of unit and it was a breakthrough for me. I've helped many a person learn to work out how damage works or how to do many seemingly-obvious object data changes.

I think people remember learning the editor to be easier than it was.
 
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Sure, i started off by exploring the World Editor. But the problem here is that some people even asked how to open the editor... We're not talking how really hard it is, we're talking how people find it that hard.

In fact, i'd say it's not hard at all. People make it look hard to learn. And that's why they should stick with WE.

And to crush your last statement, my friend started learning how to do everything in GE. And hell, he's doing a good job for a guy that never used a Blizzard Editor before.
Haha, crush. Arguments aren't Pokemon, buddy.

I don't know if your friend already has experience with computers (or the programming thereof), or if he's taken an extensive dive into tutorials with your vehement encouragement, but he if he can take on Galaxy Editor with relative ease, I can assure you, he is not representative of any kind of reasonable expectation from the average Starcraft player.
Define "easily understand how to use it." Back in the day I managed to get the pocket factory ability on a building making a certain type of unit and it was a breakthrough for me. I've helped many a person learn to work out how damage works or how to do many seemingly-obvious object data changes.

I think people remember learning the editor to be easier than it was.
WE was hard in its more complex stages. That's to be expected. Galaxy Editor should be the same way, if not even more so. But god damn it, it shouldn't take a tutorial to understand how to create a custom unit. This is entry-grade, elementary level design, and they're needlessly complicating it. I intuitively knew how to create a unit, set its model, attack range, projectile, and abilities rather easily in World Editor. It's just not there in Galaxy.

This is a site full of experienced modders and experienced IT users. It's natural to have a higher expectation of technical competency here. And granted, I'm not exactly an experienced techie. But it's plain to see that for the average user, Galaxy Editor is a fucking labrynth.
 
i've learned how to create a unit after like an hour or so of poking through the editor (in the beta),

so i agree with MSBB

it doesn't help much more than WE to make it so complicated to create a FUNCTIONAL unit without any FRUSTRATION and BUGS..

but in my perspective.

learning is learning.

if you know how to learn, then everything takes the same amount of difficulty.
then comes years of practice, and it becomes easy
 
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Ok, to sort this out.


The problem is not in the fact that now a unit takes 50 steps to create.

The problem is that each of those steps are confusing in themselves.


There are a LOT of fields to mess with, and not all of them are clear on what they do, how they do it, etc...

It also doesn't help that the way said fields are organized and presented to the user are a very jumbled and only semi-sorted mess.


I am not bitching about having more steps, I am bitching because this is blizzards at least 4th map editor, and it has the same format as the first.

Update it.
 
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I got my hands on the editor today. It sure seems a bit different :p

The unit creating indeed seems like a mess, but the triggers didnt seem all that bad for the first glance.

Well I quess ill have to play around with it a bit more before final judgement
 
i would have to agree that object data is the biggest leap, although there are more fields, with more stuff to do, its not so simple to do the easy stuff anymore, atleast untill uve devoted hours and hours into it, which is fine and all for kids with plenty of time, but im kinda working (and goin to school), and dont have the hours i had when i was a kid..

The trigger editor seemed only slightly more complicated, at entry level, with alot more functionality, and the terrain editor's great, with the exception of the cliff hight limits (i think theres only 4 cliffhights you can do), it woulda been nice if you could 'raise ground' directly above a cliff, and it would make sure to only get the terrain on the top side, making a seemingly taller cliff, with the same climbing rules as 1 cliff tall), plus nearly limitless variations on cliff hight

also all the cliff models should be doodads, for custom cliff creation, to bypass any terrain 'limits' (im sure there available in the mpq once someone finds em)
 
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I dont know if im just plain stupid or what, but the editor is really owning me...

iv spend 2-3h on the editor and so far iv managed to create a unit and add ability to it...too bad the ability doesnt work!!!

and iv done these with tutorials....so hard.....maybe i can get a hero made in next month at this rate...
 
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While harder to learn for beginners this editor allows like THIS much more at a higher level. Yes when you start working with WE you're all fine and dandy until you want to make your own hero attribute. BAM. You suddenly realize how limited you are in WE.

This doesn't mean that it should be too hard to understand for beginners but you cannot really remove complexity without taking away deeper customization.
That is unless perhaps you decide to put in a lot options which consumes a lot development time. And as a developer who barely needs those options you're free to call it a waste.

As Syltman said it would be nice to have some features such as copying a hero without redundantly copy and pasting hundreds of variables etc.
But yeh let's see what Blizzard is going to do.

I really dig the structure of the Data Editor though. Some features to speed certain things up and remove pointless copy and paste action and I'm all fine with it ;o
 
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This doesn't mean that it should be too hard to understand for beginners but you cannot really remove complexity without taking away deeper customization.
That is unless perhaps you decide to put in a lot options which consumes a lot development time. And as a developer who barely needs those options you're free to call it a waste.
It's worth it, for the same reasons it's worth it to have both GUI and JASS.
 
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Being able to do more does not necessarily mean "better". Using this logic, coding the whole damn game yourself would be the best method.
 
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Being able to do more does not necessarily mean "better". Using this logic, coding the whole damn game yourself would be the best method.
It is better, in the sense that the potential for high quality games would be higher.

It's worse in that it's as practical and user-friendly as a splinter in the eye.
 
It is better, in the sense that the potential for high quality games would be higher.

It's worse in that it's as practical and user-friendly as a splinter in the eye.

Actually the only complicated part is the data editor, but that's because it's a bunch of editors from wc3 combined, and then some. This makes it look big and bulky, but I think that while it is tough to master, it has a high payoff.

I understand that it isn't user friendly, but having advanced fields makes it more practical, not less, it's UI might be scary, but the data editor can be taken in pieces, just remember that the actor is the puppeteer, not the unit.
 
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Actually the only complicated part is the data editor, but that's because it's a bunch of editors from wc3 combined, and then some. This makes it look big and bulky, but I think that while it is tough to master, it has a high payoff.
I don't recall arguing this. The Data Editor is the most complicated part of Galaxy Editor. I get that. I also get that this editor has much more potential. I wasn't arguing any of this.
I understand that it isn't user friendly, but having advanced fields makes it more practical, not less, it's UI might be scary, but the data editor can be taken in pieces, just remember that the actor is the puppeteer, not the unit.
You don't have to sacrifice user-friendliness to get more complexity (a good example would be having both GUI and JASS in the World Editor), and especially with an in-game map editor, you most definitely shouldn't.

Level editors are a chance for the gamer to take part in the gaming creation. It's as much a tool as it is another part of the game itself. A window into the mindset of the developer. It should welcome, and entice.

I remember replaying Portal with the developer's commentary on. It was an unforgettable experience. I was blown away by the things I took for granted on my first playthrough. I remembered saying to myself, "I bet somewhere out there, someone played this and seriously considered a career in game design."

The original Staredit had this spark of inspiration. World Editor has this as well. But by the time you reach Galaxy Editor, it becomes rather obvious that their target user has changed. They only want to target people who already mod games. Granted, it's not a bad business strategy. Custom editing was what made the lucrative Tower Defense industry, and many people bought WC3 just to play Defense of the Ancients. It's practical to want to bring out the big guns at this point. But they're killing the inspiration that made it happen.
 
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its very flexible at the cost of being less user-friendly, i dont think blizzard made it "hard on purpose," its just hard because its so powerful. like blender vs. MSpaint
 
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Lol I like your comparsion. But still I wish they had made a tutorial for the stuff that i could do with the world edit with my eyes closed. I really hate what they did with the Data editor. I can't make custom units like i use too. And i can't make custom tech trees.
 
I don't recall arguing this. The Data Editor is the most complicated part of Galaxy Editor. I get that. I also get that this editor has much more potential. I wasn't arguing any of this.

You don't have to sacrifice user-friendliness to get more complexity (a good example would be having both GUI and JASS in the World Editor), and especially with an in-game map editor, you most definitely shouldn't.

Level editors are a chance for the gamer to take part in the gaming creation. It's as much a tool as it is another part of the game itself. A window into the mindset of the developer. It should welcome, and entice.

I remember replaying Portal with the developer's commentary on. It was an unforgettable experience. I was blown away by the things I took for granted on my first playthrough. I remembered saying to myself, "I bet somewhere out there, someone played this and seriously considered a career in game design."

The original Staredit had this spark of inspiration. World Editor has this as well. But by the time you reach Galaxy Editor, it becomes rather obvious that their target user has changed. They only want to target people who already mod games. Granted, it's not a bad business strategy. Custom editing was what made the lucrative Tower Defense industry, and many people bought WC3 just to play Defense of the Ancients. It's practical to want to bring out the big guns at this point. But they're killing the inspiration that made it happen.

Here is the real argument. Blizzard in times past has always given us editors they used to make their game. They always happened to be user friendly because they liked it that way. However, the Data Editor was what they used the make the UI of the SC2 bnet engine.


That's a feat, being able to recreate that for a new system making a mod. But because of the way actors are set up(puppeteers, not puppets), the Data Editor seems hard, because of the many options that wc3 modders found all in one field. This spread-out nature is actually better organized than the warcraft III system.

But I think the kind of people having the most problems, are the people who transferred from warcraft III. Look at like this: If you were new to it, you start with a fresh slate, and that fresh slate makes you moldable, with knowledge, even the tiniest bit of another editor, "you" being below the "point", as mentioned earlier, will make it much harder to learn the new editor. Also, just to put it out there, I would say the editor is easier to learn at twelve because your brain is more moldable.

Finally, I would have to say that if you're not very good at the warcraft III world editor, you're going to have a hard time "tech swapping" to the Starcraft II editor. But in the NA custom game section, we have sidescrollers, sheep tag, a well designed base defense FPS, a debating game, and any number of original games, and I am surprised, as a wide number of modders in warcraft had been european and asian, but these europeans/asians are not transitioning from what I hear of the popularity system, either that, or the european gamers haven't figured out how to "cheat the system". But that's another matter.

T-t-t-t-that's all folks. :p
 
I have been trying to learn sc2 editor now since it came with the beta, that means MONTHS of practice, and I still cant ex: Make a hydralisk be able to be trained in a barrack

Srsly, galaxy editor rules, except data editor

DATA EDITOR SUCKS, piece of garbage, I rather puke in a glass then drink it up

You have to give it the ability "Train Hydralisk" units use abilities to train other units now.
 
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Ugh. Its just more paperwork basically. I hate that. But still its pretty good. But i would like to see the data editor a little more organized and understandable.
 
Trying to understand how to edit upgrades now to infinite, I got no directions whatsoever from the editor, the editor just stands there and smiling at me;

There really are NO DIRECTIONS of how to change stuff, no organization, ur just standing there with 5000 directions that point to the unknown wich you've never visited.

I think SC2 team realize they need to remake the editor :)
Atleast a HUGE update to make it easier to use, right now its like a huge fucking dragon!
You aint going near that dragon, it'll kill you!!! I mean, look at it, a fucking dragon on lvl.99, no one would blame you of being a coward
 
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I hate the water squares.



Yeah wtf is that about.


Trying to understand how to edit upgrades now to infinite, I got no directions whatsoever from the editor, the editor just stands there and smiling at me;

There really are NO DIRECTIONS of how to change stuff, no organization, ur just standing there with 5000 directions that point to the unknown wich you've never visited.

I think SC2 team realize they need to remake the editor :)
Atleast a HUGE update to make it easier to use, right now its like a huge fucking dragon!
You aint going near that dragon, it'll kill you!!! I mean, look at it, a fucking dragon on lvl.99, no one would blame you of being a coward

..But I have a level 99 Ice Sorc... :(
 
Either way? There's only one way right now. Experiment. I am serious. I understand every single field in the editor, if it works, if it has purpose, or if it bugs.

And unfortunatly data editor bugs everywhere

I will learn the data editor sooner or later, but I really think its to complicated for its own good

Oh well, there will be less n00b maps, that's good
 
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Seriously. The data editor RULES. If you can't do anything in it, it means you gotta stick with Wc3 OR try to understand how things work by studying existing stuff.
Jesus Christ, NO ONE'S ARGUING THIS. WE ALL KNOW THE EDITOR IS BETTER, AND IT CAN DO MORE STUFF. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S PERFECT; THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE ISN'T MUCH MORE ROOM UPON WHICH TO IMPROVE.

Whether Blizzard listens or not, the editor's user-friendliness is its biggest problem right now, and if Blizzard feels the need to make changes, this is where it starts. Whether or not they do change is up to them and the image they wish to maintain.

What is your purpose for contesting this? Is there any life-or-death situation I'm missing here?

Given, people like Redbean and I aren't particularly deterred. I'm still going to try my best to study this, because I really enjoy Blizzard's modding community. But fuck me for wanting to welcome newcomers a bit more. Clearly asking for anything more will tempt the powers that be, and Blizzard will have to purify this website.
 
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If people, haven't noticed already, that is that each editor Blizzard makes gets more complicated and harder to learn.

WC2 edit< SC1 edit< WC3 edit< SC2 edit

Notice that the better the editor gets the less simpler it becomes?
 
I need someone to make custom models :D

I sure hope that isn't a request...

If it is a request I also want someone to make custom models for me!
I want:
Every unit from SC1
An altered light unit to every unit in SC2
3 different cool Battlecruisers, altered oc
Also every unit from wc3

Chop chop! Go to work now and make me my models
 
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i think the ge simplifies a lot of things which could hardly be done in the we,
one example, in ge you can do an full equipment system with inventory usw in less than 2 hours and without triggers, in warcraft 3 you had to write about 1k lines of jass and it took most people several days. but its of course harder to understand the really basic things like "why is my unit a white circle?" or "why does my button dont work?" since in we all data for a unit was put into ONE unit token and in ge its split in units, actours, abilities, buttons...
 
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OK... The galaxy editor surely is more complicated than World Editor, and that is good. If, let's say, blizzard makes warcraft 4 (I hope it'll come out in like 5 or 6 years) The world editor for It'll be complicated as The Galaxy editor X 3 or 4 times. IT'll have soo many options... It'll be compared to the Galaxy editor, like the galaxy editor compared to the War3 world editor. Time passes, and things get more complicated. And that way, it's the best.
 
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what a wannabe. the editor is really hard compared to the world editor, im decent at the world editor and i cant even find where anything is lolz its like they took it out? or im blind
 
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Well after playing around with the editor for several hours (I got the editor like a week ago). It doesnt seem so complicated anymore...I kinda like the inventory system you can make with it, alltought it takes soooooooo looong to make items and stuff (and if you want to modify it).

I kinda feel like some things could be a bit simplier, like adding special effects and damage. You always have to create actors/behaviours for it which takes so much more time than in wc3....With good organization the data editor wont get too messy and it helps a bit to look for stuff if you need to modify it (I think its really important to name actors/stuff correctly).

But now I have grown to like the editor, I quess two things I hate and should be changed is adding the special effects (always have to make unit/actor for this) and the damage system (poison effects work kinda fine, but if you want to make initial damage, you have to make behaviour + damage effect for it)...I use special effects/damage effects so much it gets kinda anoying....

*edit* And it helps so much when there are so many tutorials on youtube. Iv watched everything I know about the editor from tube (inventory system, action definition, unit creation...) so that helps BIG TIME, without tutorials I propably would have just given up.
 
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