1. Are you planning to upload your awesome map to Hive? Please review the rules here.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Updated Resource Submission Rules: All model & skin resource submissions must now include an in-game screenshot. This is to help speed up the moderation process and to show how the model and/or texture looks like from the in-game camera.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. DID YOU KNOW - That you can unlock new rank icons by posting on the forums or winning contests? Click here to customize your rank or read our User Rank Policy to see a list of ranks that you can unlock. Have you won a contest and still havn't received your rank award? Then please contact the administration.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. The Lich King demands your service! We've reached the 19th edition of the Icon Contest. Come along and make some chilling servants for the one true king.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. The 4th SFX Contest has started. Be sure to participate and have a fun factor in it.
    Dismiss Notice
  6. The poll for the 21st Terraining Contest is LIVE. Be sure to check out the entries and vote for one.
    Dismiss Notice
  7. The results are out! Check them out.
    Dismiss Notice
  8. Don’t forget to sign up for the Hive Cup. There’s a 555 EUR prize pool. Sign up now!
    Dismiss Notice
  9. The Hive Workshop Cup contest results have been announced! See the maps that'll be featured in the Hive Workshop Cup tournament!
    Dismiss Notice
  10. Check out the Staff job openings thread.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

Rise of Winterchill 0.71m

Submitted by Softmints
This bundle is marked as approved. It works and satisfies the submission rules.
After months of supposed inactivity, Rage Winterchill has amassed a rogue legion of demons, satyr, and undead to use in a fanatical strike against the Night Elves in an attempt to avenge Archimonde's death. After demolishing several elven outposts, he has stationed himself in the ruins of a former city, and is prepared to fight. The Elves are underprepared and doom lingers overhead; can you turn the tides of the battle?

Features:
* A high-level AoS with engaging, action-packed gameplay.
* Thirty completely
original heroes to fight with.
* Focus on
interesting abilities which take aiming/timing, and reward skilled players.
* Almost
no stuns/complete disables which leave your character helpless.
* Stat-based abilities which scale differently depending on your item build.
* Optional Tournament Mode with ordered bans and picks.
*
8 years of iteration and polish.

* Very
progressive item systems, designed for ease of use:
* Clearly organised Marketplace interface (see screenshots below) with full information about effects stacking and recipe components.
* No overlapping 'orb abilities': everything works on every hero and with every other item.
* 'Recipe' items will auto-complete if you already have enough gold.
* Type -i itemname to buy an itemname, saves time on searching (various other shortcuts available).
* Interesting items which improve ability fields such as Duration and AoE, to add more build options.

* Clean visual style without gaudy effects.
* All necessary information is contained within the map, no need for an external reference.
* Continued
on-demand support for bugs/balance fixes, though active development has ended.


Shortfalls:
* There are no AI/bot players in the map, nor any immediate plans to add them. Sorry!
* Large (8MB) file size due to lots of custom assets.


Screenshots:
(Plenty available below!)


Want to play?
* You can find players on the RoW Steam group.
* The latest versions are always on MakeMeHost.com.
* RoW takes approximately 50 minutes, and it's best played with at least 4v4. For 3v3 or less, the game will activate an all-mid mode.

More details about the game can be found on the Homepage!


Changelog:
* View it online here.
* Or find it in the map's quest menu (along with accreditations).


Video!
Check out recorded streams at the Twitch.tv channel.

Below, a video featuring out-takes from couple of games from 2012. Huge thanks to Sep for putting it together!



Related Content:
Softmints' other work includes:
* DotA Outland, which is this map's predecessor.
* Leraux, a single-player puzzle-adventure game.
* Lane-Pushing Games, a blag about AoS maps.

Keywords:
AoS, Winterchill, Rise, DotA, Outland, RoW, Softmints, Rise of Winterchill, DotA Outland, Hero, Heroes, Spell, Custom, Moba
Contents

Rise of Winterchill 0.71m (Map)

Reviews
Moderator
18:41, 23rd Dec 2008 Rui: Not a bad AoS. Its bases were well covered up, but concretely, it did not come out so well. See my full review. With a full 3/5 (Useful), this map is Approved! 21:44, 16th May 2011 Cweener: Went back through it on...
  1. Frotty

    Frotty

    Wurst Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,437
    Resources:
    11
    Models:
    3
    Tools:
    1
    Maps:
    5
    Tutorials:
    1
    Wurst:
    1
    Resources:
    11
    Added you on steam.
    I know (obviously) and I am also using this most the time, but if I don't buy the recipe first, but the recipeitems first to get at least some effects, and e.g. I already have 2-3 recipe items and my inventory is full, if I buy the recipe even if all the recipe items are in my inventory, it drops on the ground.
    I can't pick it up.
    I have to drop 1 item and pick it up and then use it.
    It's just annoying and this is alos 1 problem every new player observes.
     
  2. WaterKnight

    WaterKnight

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    4,033
    Resources:
    5
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    4
    Resources:
    5
    Despite playing this map regularly on events and my environment is quite into it, the aforementioned objections do not vanish and every game displays obvious things to complain about.

    Today I played Fae the dreamweaver:

    Plane Shift: Banishes Fae and nearby units of any faction for some seconds. Banish disables attack, reduces received physical damage to 0, increments magical damage and healing by 30%.

    Plane Shift turns the screen green, banished units are transparent --> for some units it's badly visible whether they are banished like Scandal Banshee. More annoying is the fact that it deactivates the user's ui --> cannot see tooltips or health bars.

    Haze: Damages enemies in a line and leaves a trail of haze on which allied heroes can reposition themselves instantly when walking on it.

    Apart from the randomness this causes gameplay-wise and control-wise by instant teleports, this ability seems to be absolutely mandatory for the hero since all other abilities require Fae to enter close combat.

    Emerald Wing: Emits two mana-burning waves orthogonal to Fae's current facing direction.

    Cannot be used against minions. Thereby serves no purpose without enemy heroes. Mana costs climb ridiculously. You have to power up your max mana in order to keep up, else the leveling of this ability has a negative effect. Facing-dependent abilities are highly careless. No precise aiming and the unit standard behavior auto-faces attack targets for example.

    Prismatic Dust: Marks nearby (only 220 aoe on lvl4) enemies, revealing them. Allied abilities hitting marked targets will trigger the debuff and replace it by a burn effect (percentual magical damage over time).

    The dust works on minions but Emerald Wing cannot transform it on them because it does not hit them. The revelation effect itself does not help against minions. You can trigger it with Haze or Plane Shift. Anyway, the 1% damage per second for 5 seconds has no worth there -> ability is completely useless against minions. I do not know what the mana costs in tooltip refer to.

    Planet Ring: Fae stands still channeling, creating a relatively wide circle. Any enemy crossing the border is thrown back to where he/she came from, meaning trapped units would be pushed towards the caster, exterior units cannot enter. Enemies within the circle are affected by Prismatic Dust.

    This ability requires Fae to take a central position within the combat and stay there for a while. Plane Shift allows her to survive it, also to trigger the Prismatic Dust. Emerald Wing or Haze on the other hand would cancel the channeling. I do not get why there is a mediocre knockback effect when touching the border because without the help of an ally, there is no reason why the enemies (expect minions) would step on it unless they wanted to intentionally abuse it (jumping to Fae or escaping in reverse).
     
  3. WaterKnight

    WaterKnight

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    4,033
    Resources:
    5
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    4
    Resources:
    5
    Stardate 26.1.2013, one month after the supposed to be apocalypse

    As soon as the game starts, I remember the -p command and type it in order to have a clean inventory for my future avatar.

    I randomize Trelaf the Wise (rhyme intended), a character meant for beginners, and instantly read his innate ability. My habit of senselessly clicking the ui, even on buttons that are displayed as passive, reveals me the multifunctional nature of this ability slot. Since I am a beginner, there is no problem starting off with 5 abilities, which a part of even debuffs myself. So I start my journey full of hope and enter the blue circle with rotating runes, which might not be just decoration. A text appears. I could not quite read it so I move the screen and re-enter the circle. No text appears. But my mind is sure there was something written there with teleporting to a far away place. I try to click in the enemy base to surprise my adversaries with a one-hit on their main. Strangely, I end up in the woods. A nearby glowing tablet draws my attention because it matches my cape. It reads that I can go back to a friendly tower. On accident, I confuse the slab with the famous Town Portal™ scroll and double-click it. "No unit shall not be selected", a divine voice announces. My urge to randomly grope the ui strikes in again. As soon as I touch another item, the namely rod conducts a strong electrical power through my body and - zap - do I wake up in a familiar place. For one second I wonder what year it is but then I remember that I possessed this beard all along. Finally the time has come to aid my brethren in the crusade, on foot. Following them through the bright spots of the forest soon leads me to the spawns of the devil. I do not question their guilty but their sin becomes clear in the shape of coins after they eat the dust. Suddenly, a greater foe challenges me and I exculpate myself for declining the offer and this cliffhanger.

    This story contains criticized points.
     
  4. copsychus

    copsychus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    211
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    Any proper version that i and my friends can play? [With fulll of hero and skills] because newest version, many hero still not have proper skill,[Ex: some hero ultimate gone, some innate and etc.]
     
  5. Frotty

    Frotty

    Wurst Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,437
    Resources:
    11
    Models:
    3
    Tools:
    1
    Maps:
    5
    Tutorials:
    1
    Wurst:
    1
    Resources:
    11
    You can find the latest versions here: http://riseofwinterchill.pbworks.com/w/page/7014362/FrontPage

    Still many heros miss a spell, but it doesn't really matter that much since they are strong enough to be played at the current stage.

    Additionally, Soft, his pals and Me + mine play RoW quite regularly mostly on weekends.
    If you like this map you could leave your steam or skype addy so I can contact you in case any game comes up.
     
  6. copsychus

    copsychus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    211
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    but i think we can't play together due to lag and delay. Also, i always download from that front page but i couldn't find any version that has full skills in every heroes
     
  7. Frotty

    Frotty

    Wurst Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,437
    Resources:
    11
    Models:
    3
    Tools:
    1
    Maps:
    5
    Tutorials:
    1
    Wurst:
    1
    Resources:
    11
    well delay isn't such a big deal most the time.
    Anyways, there is no version with full skills because they don't exist.

    But as I said, they don't need to. It's WIP after all, but they are still playable.
    I mean, what is your problem?
     
  8. copsychus

    copsychus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    211
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    OK, nevermind , i found older version in 0.61a that all hero can be able to play [all heroes have full slot of spell] and the map design didn't change yet. In truth, i like old design than new design because it's not the same as dota style and very fun when we're fighting in the forest.
     
  9. Frotty

    Frotty

    Wurst Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,437
    Resources:
    11
    Models:
    3
    Tools:
    1
    Maps:
    5
    Tutorials:
    1
    Wurst:
    1
    Resources:
    11
    Dude...all heros are playable, how often do I have to say it?
    If you mean disabled heros, you have to write "-p" in chat to play the promode heros.
     
  10. copsychus

    copsychus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    211
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    i know that, but other ppl always asked me , why this / that no ultimate spell and i'm really bored to answer them. Although i already told them , that hero isn't completed yet but they still choose it. and blame me . . . OK, just forget that question, no need to question and answer anymore. have fun that is all.
     
  11. WalterCotN

    WalterCotN

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    Good choice, and thanks for sticking with the map for so long and being an active voice.

    I agree. The screen filter is very annoying, although I think it's been removed (Not really sure about its official status), though if so it still occurs if one is plane shifted while veiled. That's a bug I've seen a few times. If the screen filter isn't intended to be gone, then it only works when veiled and lasts forever unless veiled without Plane Shift on. Not sure if Soft knows about this.

    It's not random. It's quite easy to surmise the purpose of a haze trail when you see it as an enemy or an ally. Save a fleeing ally, simple damage, block off escape, get closer to an enemy, chase an enemy, last hit a fleeing enemy... There are many uses, but few are indistinguishable to one another given that the enemy in question understands Fae. I agree there is a control problem in Fae's facing direction when using the trail, though. I'm not sure if there's a way to better control facing direction when on it for emerald wing. I may just be missing a neat trick, but it seems as if Fae turns wherever she wants sometimes when you teleport on the haze.

    Fae has haze trail, why would she need another ability to wipe a wave out?

    Certainly. I can't actually think of a time when it would be a good idea to put all your points into Emerald Wing. The mana cost is manageable in the early game so long as you don't level it past the 2nd level. Once your mana pool gets larger, it becomes beneficial to do so. Putting a point in a skill always comes at a cost early on, regardless of mana cost increases. A point in one skill is a point not put in another, thus an opportunity cost is incurred. The existence of negative effects for leveling a skill early is not unique to RoW, it's in every AoS. If you wanted an example of an ability that levels poorly, Ogake's impale would probably be the prime example (depending on how you play Ogake, for me it is terrible to level), and even that has benefits to leveling it in the late game.

    Beyond all that, Emerald Wing is devastating against your rival(s) in lane. It severely reduces how long a hero can stay effective in lane without going back to the fountain. Ogake is a prime example of Emerald Wing's power. Low mana pool, highly mana dependent, high burst damage. Simply the threat of Emerald wing is enough to zone Ogake away from the troops. Thus, it's really not surprising that Emerald Wing can't be used consistently after cooldown unless it is absolutely necessary or exceptionally fruitful to do so.

    Would have to disagree. You've already demonstrated a reason why you can't 'carelessly' throw out Emerald wing: The mana cost. You need to take care in aiming and in finding the right opportunity. Also, it's trite to throw out the auto-attack facing mechanism on an ability that aims perpendicular to that. Especially when you need to reach a sweet spot in between the range where an enemy can simply take a step to the left (Ground they need to cover to do that lessens as Fae is closer, trigonometry and whatnot) and dodge entirely and the range wherein they can move with the wave until it ends.

    Once more, Fae has Haze. Even with its sharp damage it is still effective against troop waves, albeit perhaps not early on, but it shouldn't be that effective against troops early on anyway. Not to mention plane shift can make the troops walk right past your wave and into a tower's range. My main criticism of this ability is that I rarely think twice about it, even before it was passive. Just an added effect for proximity, but not a good enough reward to encourage proximity on its own.

    Not necessarily. It can both contain and rebuke. You can block escape without going into the middle of combat since the circle is large enough to block entire alleyways and lanes. When you are using it to contain, it becomes a double-edged sword, a fatal one if not used right. You become a stationary, easy target for lots of abilities, especially dangerous since Fae is so squishy. This isn't a bad thing, if you were implying that it was. It encourages its use in a team context and for one to think before making oneself vulnerable to attack.

    The heat of combat can cause even the best of players to unintentionally walk into it, especially if it appears right in front of you out of nowhere as it usually does. Your teammates can very easily take advantage of a wall of knockback with their own knockbacks. This is easily seen with a Fae/Geo combo. Furthermore, what would be the incentive to not touch the edge if not for the knockback? It provides excellent zoning beyond the physical block with the knockback than without, providing better shots for heroes like the Skirmisher, who want to get the enemies as clumped as possible for Beatdown.

    And it's also a very good way to kill enemies with knockback or pull escaping enemies toward you if you're savvy with circles and distance. One can cast it in a chase, causing the enemy to touch the edge and be pulled to you for the kill. Recognition of a threat takes some amount of time, regardless of your skill. It's not easy to reflexively turn around when a knockback wall appears in front of you as you're thinking of plans to escape/counter attack/reach a teammate.

    There are many more uses for it that people can discover for themselves with common sense, testing, or on the fly situation evaluation in-game. It's very versatile.
     
  12. WaterKnight

    WaterKnight

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    4,033
    Resources:
    5
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    4
    Resources:
    5
    Badly controlable. I count this to randomness because of the lack of calculability.

    If you stand a marginally small distance away from the trail and issue an order on the other end of the trail, the hero will choose to walk instead. The pathfinding does not recognize the teleport possibility. Enemies cannot target you while you are on the trail because you can jump arbitrarily and instantly here and there.

    To increase flexibility, combat-wise and in hero building, so it's worth to have alternative leveling patterns. Also, having only one damage spell with higher cooldown forces you to hit and use it for this purpose. Fae is not an auto-attacker, so has no option but to retreat/phase shift when targeted by minions when Haze is on cooldown. The minions are already problematic as they are.

    But here it's very direct and a noob trap. The mana cost increase does not match the stats gained from the level up.

    It aims at bad control? I am not saying to change the shape or orthogonal direction but either select a target point or disable auto-attack. Facing-dependent spells are wishy-washy because you do not set the facing precisely. Imagine Fae is surrounded -> you have no space to click to align the angle other than pointing the surrounding units. If you click outside, Fae will struggle and end up with a random direction. The wc3 pathfinding tries to circumvent obstacles and therefore steadily turns the moving unit.

    An initial knockback effect is another thing. Else it's a noob trap.

    Do you need one? Just make it a barrier.



    So yesterday played Namek:

    no innate ability

    Cinder: Needed a good amount of time to understand this one because the tooltip does not tell exactly how the second and third ball are rejected and Softmints has taken the worst possible solution. The other balls inherit the angle of the caster's facing. So you are required to follow the trajectory of the missile and pay attention to your hero at the same time, which is quite a feat considering two balls together can traverse a third of the map, so I had to zoom out. Finally, you have to look at your life, too.

    Mana cost and cooldown are still charged when you do not have enough life to cast. Same for Lava Lance.

    Lava Lance: According to the tooltip, I thought the line would spawn at my position after the delay. So I wondered about the length and offset. The starting point is not mentioned.

    Igneous Aegis: This ability does not cost life, which confused me because it says I need to pay life in order to gain the effect. I understood after reading the other abilities. Igneous Aegis is absolutely useless without them. You should not even be able to learn it at level 1.

    Furnace: Nothing to say here.


    General:

    -zoom command does not recognize numbers with more than 4 digits. I mean when I write -zoom 10000, it picks the minimum instead of the maximum.

    It sucks that nightelf is darkgreen because they get lost in the background. Demonics have a bright red color, so team color is more negligible on them but nightelves blend in. Anyway, it would be good to make the color dependent on the faction of the viewer, so your enemies are always red for example, friends are blue. I find myself sometimes with the wrong company as it alters every game.
     
  13. WalterCotN

    WalterCotN

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    If you're referring to predicting the damage outcome for Haze, then I'd say this is incorrect. Haze is very easy to hit if that is your intention. If you're referring to comboing with Emerald Wing and knowing the damage outcome of that, that is more random due to the difficulties with facing direction on the trail, which I think is a problem. Everything you cite has nothing to do with randomness, rather people's ability to use Haze itself.

    I don't know why you refer to 'calculability' so much. Do you expect every encounter with the same hero to be the same, or that they ought to be the same? Decisions of circumstance are largely made on the fly in RoW. Putting yourself in a better position when combat begins is what is set up beforehand with planning in mind. Is a lack of conclusions premeditated before combat considered to be a bad thing? Personally I don't think it is. What you call randomness seems to stem more from the heightened inclusion of target input rather than actual randomness.

    You start on the haze trail when you cast it. The only reason you would be off it is if you intentionally walked off it. The animation for haze trail is quite clear, it's not hard to tell when you are on or off it. So the only control problem I can think of is if you play with the screen zoomed in to the default and have to move the screen around to be able to see the whole trail (And only when its leveled up far enough to have that range) when seeing the whole trail is even necessary.

    Be aware of where your hero is; be aware of where the trail is.

    Becomes more difficult, not impossible. It also becomes more difficult to target people when they become adept at dodging. Is input from the target being critical to the difference between a hit and miss bad as well?

    This is bad? Fae is squishy. If you're using Haze for poking, then usually you just jump in and jump out after casting or attacking as you desire. Why you would even stay on it just to jump around arbitrarily doesn't make sense to me. Doing so could very easily land you in a terrible position once the duration is up. It is better to teleport where you want for however long you want within the duration constraint and teleport to safety after rather than to waste time clicking random spots on the trail. There's not much you can actually do while doing that beyond casting abilities that require no mouse input, which would be a huge waste anyway.



    So what is to stop Fae from immediately dominating a lane by just putting points into Haze and Emerald Wing? Soft already made Haze sharp damage for this very purpose, making Emerald Wing hit creeps makes little sense, especially after that.

    Not hard to hit both troops and heroes during the laning phase, and this statement only really rings with any truth during laning. Haze has a rather large width for a line ability, and it stays after its use. It still damages any enemy that walks on it that has not yet been damaged by it. Also,there's nothing forced about the situation you describe. If the Fae player wants to use her abilities for other purposes, she can decide to do so at the cost of being less effective at pushing. And if she wants both, she can lane with an ally, which she is very good at doing given her doubling as a supportive hero.

    It's not as if throwing your spells at minions is the only way to push effectively either. I explained before that Emerald Wing is fantastic for zoning away your enemy. It doesn't matter if her auto-attack isn't up to par with the enemy (It'll actually probably be better. Her stat growth for her main stat is comparable to Kukulza and Agnes, same for the base stat as well.) if they can't go close enough to the minions or have to go back home to regain mana. You can even knock down their HP over time with Haze early on, giving you control of the lane. Not as if Fae needs to push all of the time anyway, pushing makes you very susceptible to ganks, which will become a huge problem if your cooldowns are on or your mana is low from pushing with all your abilities all the time.

    You shouldn't stand there and be attacked by minions even if you have a good auto attack unless it's late in the game and you have life leech. What's wrong with using phase shift in this situation? And why are you in this situation in the first place? Troops don't target you en-messe unless there are no other targets in range. Occasionally a fel hound or lava spawn will target you because you're in range while a huntress isn't, but using any ability to stop that is going overboard.

    You come to understand how they act when you play the game more, I suppose. I haven't had major problems with them in a while. The creeps are a different story.



    Why not say Prismatic Dust is a noob trap then? The opportunity cost of leveling that first is very apparent. Or perhaps even Plane Shift. Even Haze, since you'll be putting all your power in one skill with a long cooldown simply for the base damage, since the stat multiplier increase means more later on. There are going to be negative effects for leveling your abilities in a poor order, and that's in every AoS. The mana cost increase is to encourage point spread rather than placing all of your points in one ability. And if you were able to manage the cost of the ability with the same stat increase, Emerald Wing would pretty much destroy anybody in the early game if you get hit by it. Being able to cast it consistently that early on at is ridiculous.


    Where did I say that? I stated that it aims perpendicular to your facing direction, and, by extension, the target of an auto attack. That was not metaphorical, and I did not imply that you wanted to change the shape either. I was explaining where the precision comes into play after you implied that the ability requires little or no precision, and thus can be thrown out carelessly with a similar or comparable effect. If this wasn't your reasoning, then I apologize for my misconception.

    It is a skill you learn over time. Also, facing is not the only component to aiming this ability. Distance is as well, which I went into. There is also the use of physical obstacles when aiming it. For example, if someone is dancing around a tower, it becomes more difficult to dodge Emerald Wing because they lose options in directions to move in. This ability is very easy to dodge if you just throw it out whenever and never set yourself up with opportunities to use it.

    I've never seen anyone be surrounded by heroes, and I don't know how anyone manages to get surrounded by minions, but even if you do Plane Shift is a more viable option than Emerald Wing in both cases, not to mention Emerald Wing will do extra damage after its use. Non-elemental spawn minions will move back to their original path, ignoring enemies because they cannot attack, thus the surround is broken. And if you're surrounded by heroes, then you're always going to get multiple hits regardless of your facing direction. You may even hit all of them. I don't feel that cooking up a situation that is less than convenient but may as well never occur is a good slight against the aiming style either.



    There is no initial knockback unless Fae gets the wall directly on you. I was referring to people moving into it or being pushed into it. Nobody has instant reflexes. It will always take some amount of time to change course. It's not as if you need to get it directly on them for them to run into it. In fact, they might not even see you if you use it from behind a corner. I can assure you that even skilled players knock into it with Fae players that are good at distance calculation. It doesn't even require you to walk into it to be useful. Other heroes can knock you into it as well.



    No, but I explained the merits to having one, and the merits lost by just making it a physical block, going into more detail than the use stated above. The only reason for its removal would be if the knockback is useless or overpowered in concept. It isn't, and that's been demonstrated multiple times in games.




    Is it facing direction now? Last time I played it was based on the angle of your hero to the area you targetted.

    Haven't played Namek in quite a while, but I'm pretty sure it still casts the abilities even if you have one health left. If that was changed, then this might be a artifact of the previous way it was dealt with.

    Starting point is where you casted it, the line is between you and the cast point, it extends out further the further you are away from the cast point.

    The tooltip ability descriptions need some work.
     
  14. WaterKnight

    WaterKnight

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    4,033
    Resources:
    5
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    4
    Resources:
    5
    I am refering to general movement on the trail, as well as facing direction as well as coming in contact with foes.

    I expect the players to be able to pick reasonable decisions from the given data and to diminish the occurence of luck, meaning the consequences of unplanned events or what could not have been acquired by the public information.

    Or you were knocked away or lured by standard behavior but I was not even talking about Fae. Allies can use the trail too.

    The difference is that walking is a gradual effect and missiles are usually much faster. It is not necessarily about hitting an enemy but cutting off the path, therefore limiting their possibilities. If Namek for example casted Lava Lance towards Fae on the trail, Fae could dodge by porting away and immediately return to the previous location within a split second because Lava Lance does not leave an area effect. Without losing anything, Fae negated the situation and puts the enemy in a rather serious bind.

    Here, I was referring to the potency of cheap and consecutive jumping from the perspective of the adversary, they can hardly take it into account.

    Casting both Haze and Emerald Wing to push the lane would be very costy. But of course you may consider having Haze deal less damage when introducing another damage effect on the hero. I never said that Emerald Wing should deal that much either. A more spammy variant would fit it though.

    As you have said yourself, unique circumstances are generated on a frequent basis in RoW. Neither was I primarily aiming at laning phase nor pushing. The fact remains that you are in trouble with Haze on cooldown. The minions/creeps zone you out or deal significant damage if you cannot get rid of them.

    Up to par with the minions rather. Just wondering if Hakkar's hounds receive damage through Emerald Wing because those would pose a threat to inflexible damage output.

    It is.

    Concentrating your power should have its raison d'être too. You lack flexibility and have a single cooldown to act but you get superior in your field of choice. Spreading your points is already encouraged by obtaining said advantages.

    Do not quite get this. I was claiming the opposite. The angle is very important which is why you require precision in aiming, which is impeded by the control. Unlike relocating one's position by walking, self-rotation seizes the whole range of values in the blink of an eye. When choosing a direction via a far away target point, the angle difference becomes much smaller.

    The surrounding scenario was obviously exaggerated but the unit tries to circumvent obstacles, therefore changes direction. And Emerald Wing is not the only facing-dependent ability.

    Which players do you consider skilled? I am also not sure how you would evaluate what is overpowered as the game is scenario-dependent, throws unique situations and we often had the feeling the game was decided because of the missing ability to push when outnumbered or at once in late game (it is always dragged into the high-end phase). The game flow is rather unapparent.
     
  15. WalterCotN

    WalterCotN

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    Moving on the trail is simple. Be aware of your own hero's position. Use it when your hero is on it. Changing facing direction is a problem with it, general movement is not. That the A.I doesn't move on the trail for you is a matter of convenience, just as a hero not following a target that has gone out of sight with an attack command is a matter of convenience.



    What are "Unplanned events?" Missing an ability? Getting ganked? Getting cut off in escape? A hero not going where you expected him to? Learning curve issues, such as the effects of poison and other status effects?

    Reasonable decisions don't need to be made a minute in advance to combat either. If something unexpected occurs, like a new combatant jumping in (Such as Iofur rolling in on his ice), you can make a reasonable decision right then and there. Like moving out of the way when you see ice on the ground.



    Click on it, then click where you want to teleport. It's really not as difficult as you're making it sound, especially if you zoom out further. Personally I play at zoom 3000-3350, and can't do very well with the default, although others seem to have a different preference.



    Don't know why you think this is bad either. Lava lance is not a very good example, given that the trail and the lance are both linear, but that's a triviality. If it becomes such a big problem to hit Fae on the trail, then save your abilities for when it is over. Fae can't keep it up at all times, and it's usually used for poking purposes in lane anyway, so it may not even be fruitful for her to stay on the trail closest to you for longer than it takes to cast her other abilities. Fae can also negate a well-aimed physical ability by using a well-timed plane shift. The fact that her abilities give her an edge in dodging is to be expected.



    Then wait for a better opportunity. Not every point in time will it be good to throw out an ability at someone. This is something you can take into account. You can also take into account the way that enemies tend to clump on the trail in teamfights. Regardless of their teleporting, throwing an ability that can cover a lot of ground on the haze trail (Such as an ability that moves in a similar fashion) can also be an opportunity.



    A spammy Emerald wing, albeit less powerful in singular use, is still going to have a huge effect on the enemy's ability to lane as a less spammy, very powerful with a managable mana cost would. Missing Emerald Wing stops mattering as much, one must expect to dodge it more, Fae will be able to zone you away at almost every moment except for after a successful dodge just by moving closer, etc... This ability burns mana, after all.



    For clarity's sake, when I refer to creeps I mean the neutral hostile forest creatures that give global XP and join lanes. They are bugged in that they have a tendency to follow people across the entire map when they're supposed to be constrained to their general area. Troops/minions are the spawn monsters. Anyway, troops don't do any zoning if you have your own troops nearby. Staying with your own troop wave and not taking arbitrary damage that could have been dealt to your own troops is not unique to RoW, although the troops in RoW are stronger than in most AoS's, so their ability to force you back is more pronounced. However it is there in every other AoS as well. And your damage compared to the enemy wave's damage only becomes pertinent to pushing if your own troops are dealing lesser damage because you have less of them. In a fight that is equal or favored towards you, your damage will cause the wave to win, given efficient target firing. You only really use an ability to push a wave when you need to hold a push back or if it becomes worth it to strengthen your push. This is why I brought up zoning away your enemy, since they too determine the outcome of a fight between troops. If you are the only one that can auto attack, you'll push even if the enemy does more damage than you.



    Rather specific situation to be referring to on a change that would increase Fae's pushing ability greatly. Emerald Wing only affects units that have a mana pool. It'll hit the voidmasochist, for example. I'm pretty sure the hounds have no mana pool, and won't be affected. Heroes that have less mana than the max potential damage of Emerald Wing will also receive only their mana remaining as damage rather than the max. So it becomes less effective as a damage ability when the enemy is out of mana entirely.



    Hm... Perhaps so. Although I'm not sure how you'd balance this. As I've explained, Emerald wing is already effective in lane at level 2, when its mana cost is manageable to general consistency in casting. The later levels can wipe large portions of enemy mana given the base increase and the stat modifier. Maybe reduce the base damage per level, increase the cooldown slightly. That's just for the early game. There are more purposes to the mana increase than just the encouragement. It also scales the cost of abilities into the late game, such that mana doesn't become incredibly arbitrary later on.



    Ah. My mistake then.

    Not really sure what you're saying either. Is the target point the point you are moving to or trying to target? Seizing the whole range of what values? Distance, angles, time taken to set up a shot?

    It becomes difficult to change your direction when a point in your immediate vicinity in the desired direction is unavailable. Other than that, you can aim without Warcraft's pathing being a problem just by moving to a point that is very close to your hero. You can even do this when trees and other doodads are in the way, units in very close range of you become a problem since they take up a range of angles you might want to turn to, but targeting them directly only turns you in one direction. I'd say that is a problem with this style. Wouldn't call it a fatal one, however.

    Certainly, however even within the same style, different techniques are better for different abilities.




    Alyssandra is probably the best player skill-wise, or at least, she was back 6 months ago. I recently reinstalled WC after a 6 month hiatus a few weeks ago. I think she's posted in this thread earlier. She currently goes by Separation @USeast. Not sure what server you're on, but most of the RoW community gathers on the USeast server, though many are still European. Dracula(CotN) is very good, especially in theorycrafting. Probably the best one to talk to about the game mechanics. TheGamaniac, Hector(CotN), Oxygen, Kurogamon, Myself (Sounds kind of pretentious, but I think it's true, relative to others in the community and how I do ingame), Egotenks, Grumbletok, Calyp-Solarus, Renamon, azer0t, Carmilla(CotN), arvay6, Softmints himself... The community used to be larger than it is now, since most of the people in it are still High school/College age and thus have studies to tend to in the cooler seasons.

    Generally we meet up in Channel Chasm @USeast and talk about the game a bit. Soft also encourages people to tell him their ideas for changes and whatnot. The game is in beta, so Soft usually tries out suggestions if they're popular or pique his interest to see if they work out.

    How one might evaluate overpoweredness itself... Kind of subjective. Some examples:

    Psychic's Miracle Eye (Global range, deals damage if a unit in the small radius is not in sight) was given a cast time since - as I would assume since I wasn't here for the change at the time - it was too easy to land a last hit as soon as the enemy went into the fog of war.

    The Tempest, a long time ago, was able to cast his lightning at melee range and damage the target itself. It made him incredibly devastating in melee, since all of his other abilities are also easier to land close-range.

    The Skirmisher used to have a slow applied to him after dashing because people thought it made it way too easy to escape given that all of his abilities make him invulnerble/difficult to hit while casting. This was later removed.

    Agnes used to be able to fire aligerous arrows with almost no cooldown at any time without becoming stationary.

    The Juggernaut used to have an innate that increased his max health whenever he took a certain amount of damage. He already has very high health, so people thought it made him nigh-unkillable in the right hands, especially paired with his damage output.

    Rage used to have an ultimate that would apply an infinitely stacking debuff (With a duration, of course) that reduced resist and armor when he or his shields were hit. Dark ritual dealt more damage based on the number of debuffs (including every individual debuff in a stack) applied, so fast auto-attackers would be taking thousands of points of damage (Pretty much instant death) if they were hit by it while fighting Rage.


    There's an adage that people say in games with unequal teams: Numbers always win. It's usually true.

    Players have the option to surrender (type "-gg") if the game's direction is apparent. Games of comparable skill usually drag on to the end.

    I'd say the advantage in a game can switch very quickly if a team falls apart and gets wiped when they initially had that advantage. However, recognizing different phases of the game is not so difficult, with the early game being made up mostly of 2-man ganks and getting your hero together, mid-game you start to see people spilling over into the other lanes more often and pushing if a rival is losing badly or absent, late-game you see the teams come together for the hard pushes and to stop from being defeated one by one by a more cohesive group.
     
  16. WaterKnight

    WaterKnight

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    4,033
    Resources:
    5
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    4
    Resources:
    5
    Inconvenience* for the chasing player. In an AoS, you should always know what your hero is up to. If you follow an enemy through the woods, you obviously wanted to do so.

    None of what you mentioned. It is unplanned for example if you skillshoot a creep and it pierces right through, extending through the sight-blocking trees behind it and hitting another player at the backside although the attacker had no clue an enemy was standing there. The occurence of a blind positive effect.

    Again, Fae is not the only one who can use the trail. The whole team can port to the front, throw some instant ability and immediately head back.

    Surely, but that activates cooldown, costs mana. Once the trail is there, the teleports are free and can be spammed all the way. I am just saying it's heavy because all the allies can use this service.

    The zoning will be weaker, you can adjust the area. Especially because it burns mana, the idea is to flatten the effect in order to reach a more meaningful predicate about the players' skill, to ensure it did not happen by chance. Of course, it's less interesting then. The ability does not affect minions or does have any other trait, so it's currently a huge loss for Fae to miss it with the high mana cost.

    That is not given. If you chase an enemy around the map, cross the lane, it will be highly crucial whether you encounter your own troops, enemies or none. Not only because they deal damage and block one of the two players while passing, they even follow you offside the lanes, stick to one's guns and do not see the supposed counter minions because those are still on the lane.

    They do not possess a mana pool but the question was raised more because of them being summons, they practically consist of mana. It is not that uncommon that such spells damage summons.

    Target point is the point you would be clicking on if the ability was point targeted to determine the direction that is currently read from one's facing angle. Seizing the values of self-rotation as in you can obtain any angle. If the standard behavior decides to turn the caster, it is easy to receive a wholly different outcome because the value changes so fast.

    We play together regularly with Softmints and Co. and the hosting bot is server-crossing. By asking how you would recognize opness I was obviously referring to why are you so sure the current content is balanced in general. You have a fixed impression of how Fae should be e.g.

    Yeah, but recognizing in whose favor the game progresses. Unless the kill statistics are very lopsided, the mid game is not very productive in pushing the towers. Then everyone maxes out and many different item abilities come into play. Since it's dragged to late game - you can even play safe in lane and go a bit into defensive to be able to use the moonwell/masochist and still get most of the money by just being close to the wave - early achievements lose significance.
     
  17. WalterCotN

    WalterCotN

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    And if you stop suddenly because your order is cancelled, you obviously did not. Also, convenience is correct. It is prefaced with "a matter of..." This only denotes subject and thus includes the negation.



    Emerald wing is one of the slowest abilities in the game, and it's going to miss just about every time if all you're doing is blind firing. I still don't understand why you're even referring to this as a core problem with the game. Hitting anything without intent is rare, and will actually hurt your team if the ability also affects allies. It is even less likely that this hit will even become meaningful in the scheme of the game. The fact that one can pick a spot on the map and there being an arbitrarily small chance of hitting the enemy says nothing about mechanics. Especially in a game where target input is crucial.



    Yes, and I went over other heroes as well. You yourself also said that one ought to be aware of what their hero is up to.



    Untrue. As stated before, if everyone is moving to stand on the trail, which it would be good to note is a line, enemies can set up shots with abilities that target in a similar fashion. For example, Rage Winterchill's ice triumvirate can be casted on the trail when one is perpendicular to it. Everyone standing on the trail is going to be hit regardless of where they teleport. They have to get off of it. Once more, why would anyone spam teleport on the trail for the sake of it? Line up your shot and get back when you're done or you might be stuck in a position you don't want to be in when the trail ends. Enemies can save their shots for after the trail is over. You don't have to throw out your abilities if there isn't a good opportunity to use them. This ability also clumps people up if the whole team is using it. This can very easily be abused by many heroes(Namely, Abraxxus).



    This doesn't make sense. Again, aimed abilities don't require skill from just one player. The target also has decisions to make that are important to determining whether or not the shot hits. Fae's Emerald wing is very easy to dodge if the Fae player is unskilled. They'll consistently miss and be ineffective because of it. If they unintentionally throw out a good Emerald wing shot, something that is incredibly unlikely given the ease of which it can be spotted and planned for if Fae doesn't know how to play, they cannot do this with any consistency and will lose every time regardless of the shot they did make.

    It is a huge loss if you put all your points into it. The mana cost is easily regained by one trip to the moon well if not. This is the same for just about every ability in RoW, even without the mana increase.



    This is something you can plan for very easily, as troops have predictable movement patterns if there are no obstructions. You can easily see where the fighting on the lane is occurring, and, in turn, whether or not you'll see friendlies or enemies. Troops on either side move as fast as each other as well. So if you want to know where the enemy troops are currently, you need only look at where yours are and mentally reflect the map.

    Blocking is something you can maneuver around. Why you would stop to cast a spell to damage the troops doesn't make sense to me either. If the game is early enough that their damage is significant relative to you, your ability won't kill them. If they're in a fight, walk past them. If they are in front of you, stay far enough to avoid aggro. If they are moving toward you, run in the same direction. If you're so low on health that a few troop hits will kill you, Emerald wing isn't going to save you. It takes time to cast and you need to get rather close for it to hit. Phase shift is going to be better regardless.



    Don't really see it as a big deal either way. Wouldn't mind it if it was there, wouldn't mind it if it wasn't.



    Choose a point closer to your hero rather than clicking far away and having the Warcraft pathing decide your direction.

    The ease of which to aim something, the ease of which to respond to it, and the results it generates all compared to one another. That is the general process for myself. Of course, since a lot of the abilities can vary, this isn't the end-all be-all, just how I would describe my thought process in a sentence. And I don't think the current content is balanced. I think Fae is balanced.

    No, it is my evaluation of the supposed problems you bring up and your solutions to them. The fact that I don't think Fae needs many changes beyond bug fixing is the application of not fixing what isn't broken.



    Ease of movement across the map, # of towers alive and their health, team k/d/a, aggregate bounty, aggregate hero level, control of the creeps, control of the lightning rod. Those are some of the ways to tell.

    Mid-game is usually when the outer towers get pushed hardest, barring those that survive to the late game.

    Games that go on to the point where everyone has all their items are rare. Late game doesn't mean that everyone is maxed.

    Very easy to die when the other team comes together for the game-winning pushes. And what you say only makes sense if the outer towers are still alive. You're not going to succeed in keeping them alive if you're handing map control to the other team even if you hug them tight. The moon well's and masochist's healing does not scale unless you buy items specifically for it, so their effects are marginalized over time. Tower damage doesn't scale either. As for early game achievements, damage on towers, time spent on the lane, early kills gained, etc... are significant even if its effects aren't apparent to you later on. The fact that a team is able to finish their first items faster than the other due to early tower money is significant and will change how the game carries on. You seem to be thinking about how much that money is worth to you at the end of the game only, rather than also focusing on how the game progressed to its current position. i.e. how that money may have helped your team push the other further and get more kills.
     
  18. WaterKnight

    WaterKnight

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    4,033
    Resources:
    5
    Maps:
    1
    Tutorials:
    4
    Resources:
    5
    ? First, the movement is instant over quite a length of the screen. Scrolling the mouse does take time too btw. Else you would need to zoom out far again. Second, this point was not related to control but to balance. Everyone can dash forward, spam abilities at the enemies and when they try to resist you may dodge their spells by going back.

    No doubt there are counters. Specific counters.

    You shall use your abilities and means to your biggest advantage. I have not claimed the opposite. My point is that the trail creates a potency/greatly disables the enemies from protecting themselves. And frankly, if your foe is standing right before you and you shoot something at him, you won't expect him to react that fast because that way you would give away your realistic opportunities. You saving your shots can very well be your doom.

    #, although that's not entirely true. I mean there are aimed spells that practically cannot be dodged, only missed, else they would pose huge disables. Miracle Eye of Psychic would be an example.

    I do not think the variance of hitting/missing is so low, especially in clustered team fights where knockbacks, teleports and confusion occur. It is also there that it makes a greater difference. Moreover, you do not even seem to consider the existence of players that do not play perfectly nor stably.

    A lot of the other abilities do affect minions or possess other side benefits. I agree on abilities like Gemini Strike since it can fizzle out, is even instant but not aborted.

    While I have not spoken about predictability here, no. That's totally illusory. You cannot expect the players to forecast when and where they and the minions will be after a minute-spanning team fight with kind of arbitrary movement paths, high dependence on the enemy party, towers bouncing the wave.

    It does its share. For a supposed to be skilled player, you oddly often refer to 1on1, abstract situations and think in a simple scale.

    Was referring to the rotation stemming from auto-attack here. However, if you choose a near target, you will have less time to cast because your hero will start idling faster and continue executing standard behavior like auto-attack.

    Nope. I meant a semi-defensive state where you delay the game on purpose in order to counter the enemy or you think you have a greater chance in late game due to a hero build/match up that scales worse early on. There are coins and creeps, latter can be relatively well warded off, since they are not weak and can be reached from defensive. As for coins, it's annoying for both sides to know who drops them. The lightning rod is more of a temporary bonus. Yes, you can take risks with it, thereby gain advantage but in any way the offensive player has to deploy money and time first he could have had in the lane.
     
  19. WalterCotN

    WalterCotN

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    So you think Haze is imbalanced? I've already went over how a hero can hit an enemy on the trail, especially if there are multiples. You can also move away from the trail if they are trying to line up shots that require closer ranges. There are effective responses to seeing Haze.



    Yeah, just about every ability that can be fired in a straight line. Or abilities that do better with clumped heroes. Or just shooting the enemy. Attacks will follow them regardless of whether or not they teleport. Not to mention Haze has a long cooldown and getting pushed off of it can be deadly. The range is limited, and it is static during its entire duration, meaning an enemy can simply move away from it when they see it.



    Enemies being able to more easily line up shots does not disable targets from protecting themselves. Counterattack may become more difficult, but defending yourself can be as easy as moving a few distance units away from the trail. If you get caught out of position or trapped by it, that is your own fault for letting Fae line that up and not anticipating it. Haze doesn't stop your from dodging abilities either.

    Can, given the circumstances that you need to slow enemies down or obstruct them in some way. Or if they're so low on health that you can kill them in a few hits, as you are as well. However these situations don't occur without events following them up. If not taking a shot at someone on Haze gets you killed, then it's unlikely that there was ever nothing you could have done to stop that, or to even hit the shot in the first place. Teleportation in a fixed area doesn't make one invincible. I also fail to see how enemies being able to get closer to you for an instant is imbalanced, especially when this ability can be easily anticipated if Fae is seen or her movements can be assumed. If not, then the threat is rarely going to be more than Fae herself, unless it is a multi-person gank. In which case one ought to have been paying attention to other lanes, with allies giving information on enemy whereabouts as well.



    Yes it is.

    There are abilities that are too fast to dodge as you see them. The key is anticipation. Agnes's arc arrows is incredibly fast, however one can anticipate its casting by seeing when Agnes turns around. One can also shield oneself by using troops to block it.

    No it isn't. Erratic movement, anticipating Psy's target area, and staying in enemy vision to heal up or gain a shield are all ways a target can dodge Miracle Eye. Usually the reason why people die to it is because they forget that there is a Psy on the enemy team, and thus do not act accordingly.



    Team fights rely heavily on good positioning, which will determine if you get hit or not given the amount of spells flying around barring simple dodging. If you do get hit as a result of chill or knockbacks, that requires some amount of coordination on the other team's part to pull off it one desires to do it with consistency. Coordination can be torn apart if the opposing team can split enemies up and focus people down. A Fae that throws out spells with minimal aiming or planning may get hits off given multiple targets. It is not done with any consistency, nor will this player particularly assist with team coordination given Fae's supportive tendencies. Another problem is that this Fae will have been doing worse in prior events where multiple targets not focused on Fae had not existed, and thus will be even less effective in team fights than a player who does aim and plan ahead, regardless of whether or not enemies get hit because they weren't focusing on Fae.

    If we begin discussing players that play poorly then we are no longer talking about game mechanics unless we refer to and compare the particular ease of performing an action and its result.


    Most of them are sharp and none of them allow a player to kill waves with a manageable mana cost.



    This is something that a decent player does as chasing begins. If you lost the team fight and need to run, then you need to work out an escape route or a counter attack plan. This includes knowing where the troops are and planning accordingly. This doesn't take a long time. You just need to glance at the minimap on the lane you're interested in. Doing this in the middle of a fight is difficult, however this isn't normally done during a fight. During the fight players usually plan such that they do not get trapped with no good exits if worse comes to worse. This sort of anticipating normally happens after the team fight has ended or is near ending.


    Share of what? Stopping short to kill creeps does nothing for chasing an enemy across the map, which is what you yourself proposed as a reason for this change.

    You came up with the situation, I fleshed out instances where it would occur (And does, quite often actually) and a viable response. None of them require Emerald wing nor would it be particularly desirable to use it. There is no reason to make the change unless you can come up with the necessity of the change, especially when the change also has laning ramifications that need also be resolved. So far you've only referred to killing creeps that chase you or block your movement, when this isn't at all necessary or desirable as I've explained.



    If you have problems aiming that way, use a close point instead.

    How long does it take you to press W? If you have problems with points that are too close them move it to your liking.



    Why are you talking about hero builds for a strategy that requires team action? Unless you are the only one playing defensive, in which case you are depriving the team of a player in team fights. Being defensive in and of itself gives the enemy an advantage. Outer towers are going to be problematic to defend, if not already dead with little hope of taking the enemy's towers, creeps and the lightning rod will be in enemy hands, you become more constricted and have less options for movement, etc... It may become necessary if you are at a disadvantage, since that in and of itself forces you onto the defensive. Being at a disadvantage means that you need to be more conservative with when you fight, where you move, and how you play. This isn't bad nor is it a direct counter to a team with an advantage and map control. A team with those both and a strength advantage can easily abuse it to further their edge. Being on the defensive means looking for slip-ups and exploiting those.

    If you're playing in a defensive fashion that opens you to the creep camps, then you can easily be ganked when you split up from your team. If you bring your whole team then you're opening yourself to a team fight near the middle of the map, which you don't want if you're at a disadvantage.

    The offensive player also gains money from pushing towers. As the creeps get stronger, their benefit towards pushing a lane does as well.


    Anyway, it's quite clear that neither of us are going to budge on this, and I'm getting tired of the discussion, so this will be my last response. Feel free to respond to it and I'll read that as well.
     
  20. Deliverance

    Deliverance

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
    Messages:
    42
    Resources:
    0
    Resources:
    0
    map is protected