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[Tower Defense] Random Walk TD

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by rulerofiron99, Apr 5, 2015.

  1. jopi

    jopi

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    very nice already.

    We played it on the incw funmap evening with 5 players. Maybe bhusta will upload the replay soon. If I remember right we played on normal (or hard?), and it was pretty easy, especially when we started to build together in an area in front of the finish-gate where the creeps had many crossings.

    Maybe you could add something like a 'bet' feature, where every player can bet a number of additional creeps to the wave, those additional creeps could give some increased income when you manage to kill them all, or unlock more Auto-Micro slots, as it caps at 30 and from there you can't auto-micro your towers, or have to switch around all the time (not that 30+ towers were needed...).
     
  2. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    Good to hear, that's exactly what I'm aiming for :)

    Thanks for the feedback. To be honest I haven't played it multiplayer since the very early versions, so I'm glad you did :)

    I think your idea for the bet feature is brilliant, it fits well with my central design theme of minmaxing. I might just make it as an ability for a specific builder/tower though, since I am planning for example an "oracle" tower that will be able to tell you what the next 2-4 waves will be.

    ---

    UPDATE: version 0.26
    - Added new builder: City (hastily balanced and not yet thoroughly bug-tested, please provide feedback)
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2015
  3. bhusta

    bhusta

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    The videos from the funmap evening need some more time.
    Here is an unlitsted version of the second gameplay of your map: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTjJSVKopuU

    We had a lot of fun playing it and I must say I am reallly impressed.
    At first I didn't get what auto-micro is but in the end it is a cool feature.

    What I would like to address is the long game time. More than an hour is too much. Would be cool if you could manage it to take about 40min.
    After every wave, you could give the builders an ability called next which reduces the wait time a little bit and if every player used this ability the next wave starts immediately.
     
  4. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    This is already a thing, but unfortunately I still haven't noted all the commands in the quest menu.
    A player can type "-ready" or "-r" to mark themselves as ready, and the next round starts when all players have readied up.
    I will add the ability version as well as you suggested.
     
  5. jopi

    jopi

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    ok, just tested the new race 'city'. I have to say that it is indeed special, it's a lot of fun, and has some nice features. I guess it's a bit more lategame oriented, where you have a lot of houses next to your minimal defense and start so get a lot of tax-income while also spawing a lot of milita in addition to your slowed down towers.

    Some things I niticed are, that the cathedral does not show a visible buff on buildings that are in range for sure (is it bugged?). Also you forgot the cathedral's and Town Hall's tooltip.

    Another thing is that the gate only has one orientation, maybe you could add also the vertical one? As city is already very dependant on the right paterns in the path (e.g. a circular path with enough space for a barrack, maybe you should think of lowering its building size as it's somehow hard to use, or at least not to its full potential).

    Also the worker plays the work anim forever once you build something, and the sound is a bit annoying, would be nice if you could fix this^^.
     
  6. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    Whoops, thanks for reminding me of those. I suppose I could add the alternative gate using one of the remaining slots, it just somehow feels weird to me.

    Not quite sure what to do with the barracks. I might change the spawning pattern to allow it to spawn more fewer roads if necessary.

    EDIT: Changing the barracks to spawn using 12 different positions, still with the limit of 8 footmen. The result is that with 3 or more sides you get max footies, if the barracks is on the corner of two paths it will spawn 7, and if the barracks is simply along a single path it will spawn 4.

    UPDATE: version 0.27
    - Fixed cathedral
    - Fixed tooltips for cathedral and town hall
    - Changed barracks and archery range spawning as above
    - Barracks and archery range will now spawn footmen/archers on completion instead of only at the start of the round, allowing you to build them in dire situations.
    - Fixed builder looping work animation

    UPDATE 2: 0.28
    - Fixed cathedral, town hall and archery range not being sellable
    - Added vertical gate
    - Added command list in quest menu

    EDIT: Known bugs:
    - Vertical gate has no pathing (waiting for a model - request to make a proper alt gate)
    - Town Hall self-destructs when it attacks (spell has the same use order as sell)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
  7. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    Update - 0.29
    - Fixed gate and town hall
    - Added new auto micro style: target high HP
    - Several other small fixes

    Focus for the next update:
    - More upgrades for all races
    - More creep variations
    - Path generator optimisation
     
  8. jopi

    jopi

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    cool, updates! gonna test the new version soon.

    Maybe you could make a treant/ancient race? Instead of sell, they can uproot their towers and root them in somewhere else (for some small gold cost maybe). They could also make some use of roots and stuff where effects are applied when enemies walk over it.

    Also I find the goblin zeppelin quite unique. Maybe you could add a race that puts some focus on these flying towers. (Idea: a tower that has to be placed on the path. Instead of an attack it can open a portal somwhere on the path for some seconds, and enemies that step into it are teleported to where the towers hovers over the path. Ok this has big trolling potentian xD)
     
  9. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    For the "nature" race, I have something else in mind, based on Sprout TD. You'd place the first "seed" tower somewhere, and instead of a builder, you'll spawn more towers from an existing tower. The next race will either by this, or some sort of ice race (nerubians or magics).

    I'm not sure I've understood your teleporter idea correctly, but it sounds like a great way to implement a teleport mechanic I've been thinking about.

    Thanks for the ideas as always, and keep them coming! :D
     
  10. jopi

    jopi

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    Ok, let me explain it a bit more:
    First you have a tower that can only be build on the path, it has no actual attack, but places an AoE effect with the attack point ability (smiliar to the upgraded explosive tower from goblins that burns the ground), this sets up the portal (maybe you need to make something so it's only placeable on the path). The cooldown for this portal is rather long, and it stays open for e.g. 5 seconds. While it's open and creeps step into it, they are teleported back to the tower which set up the portal. With this it's possible to move enemies back along the path (but also make them skip a part, when you place the portal wrong).

    You somehow also should add a buff to the units teleported so they can't be teleported for some time, or someone could easily port creeps back to start with some of this portal towers.
     
  11. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    Ah, that is quite similar to what I had in mind. As you mention, it could be incredibly strong if implemented badly. You could potentially keep creeps in the path indefinitely.

    I might do something like this:
    Instead of choosing a target location, the creep is simply sent back X amount of steps back down the path.
    It would have at least a few seconds cooldown (most of the swarm would come through).
    Units teleported would gain resistance, either in the same way they get resistance to the Chemical Merchant's alcohol (every cast doubles resistance), or a X second buff preventing teleport.

    If I make it as part of the Chaos race, though, the portal location would be extremely random instead (random path arrow within ~1000 of the portal).

    EDIT: Update
    • More creep variations (about 20 new creeps spread across all levels)
    • New towers
      • Chemist (upgrade from Chemical Merchant)
      • Soul Chiller (upgrade from Soul Collector)
      • Arch (upgrade from Gate)
      • Keep (upgrade from Town Hall)
    • Optimised path generator a bit (on average a 50% reduction in time spent generating a 5-player path, still needs much more work)
    • Reworked path-based difficulty calculation. Path quality now also affects the rate at which difficulty increases during the course of the game.

    Next update will either be a new race, or another mixed patch like this one.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  12. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    Gonna test it~

    edit:
    list of suggestions


    *If you start a wave early you should get some gold depending on how early you start it.
    *Please make it display "You've lost a life. (x)" so you see how many lives you have left.
    *The arrow model looks buggy to me, why do you have two arrows on top of each other?
    *the gate seems to be pretty bad considering how much it costs. It attacks like 3-4 times per wave, dealing 300 * x damage and can only target ground units. Meanwhile an upgraded guard tower can attack air units, got longer range, air splash and deals 50 damage per attack.
    *the map is huge for a single player. You could divide the map into smaller parts depending on the number of players, aka set camera bounds to a lower number, this would reduce the generation time a lot too!


    Generation done right, pretty interesting mechanics too. Sadly it was too hard for me on normal difficulty, I made it to wave 11.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2015
  13. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    Thanks for the feedback!

    Hmmm... sure, why not.

    Will do.

    The model just has a double tip. Best one I could find. Would be happy to use a different one if there is a more appropriate model.

    I'll buff it a bit, balance was based around a longer bash duration, which was shortened because you could stunlock bosses between a couple of gates. Anyhow, the towers are balanced by recording how much damage they deal during a test round while placed at an average spot. Compared to a guard tower placed where the wave will pass it once, their "damage dealt per gold spent" actually favours the gate, but as you know in reality you'll mostly be building guard towers in places where they hit the wave twice.

    This is already done (minus the camera bounds). There is a different "map bound" region for every amount of players, and the smallest is the size that it is to give the generator enough space to make a long enough path.
    Once I've further optimised the generator, I'll make the size a bit smaller. The empty space bothers me too ;)

    Regarding difficulty, it could be that my difficulty changes in the latest version were too much. Which race did you use?
     
  14. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    I was playing as human. I don't complain about the difficulty. I am just reporting it ^^
     
  15. jopi

    jopi

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    And what if you make the gates really close. What I mean is, that they close and stop enemies from passing through them. This again would need some kind of buff so creeps that were blocked by a gate lately can pass through another without problem, and also don't cause it to close. This could 'city' make very potent on stacking strats where you make massive use of AoE towers.
     
  16. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    I'm planning to do this for a different tower, possibly as part of another race. Or maybe even as a very expensive buff for the gate.

    My concern is that the stacking strategy would be too good, splash towers would become 3-5x as valuable as their balance point.

    A different method I might use would be for the creeps to stop in front of the gate, but spaced apart (about 50 distance). This would increase the duration of a strong point, and also serve to bring fast creeps closer together to make splash more useful against them.
     
  17. Kino

    Kino

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    I absolutely love the concept. It really forces the player to adapt and figure out how to manage each generated maze on the fly.

    The things I felt were really strange, was the focus on attack types and tower size placement.
    As the player, you only have 8 towers. I found it much more interesting building around the random path and tower ability synergy as opposed to what attack types would sync with the mob defense types.
    If this was a map with 20+ tower types, it would be fine. But here I feel that your ability to answer the challenges the creeps offer is rather forced/limited.
    Thats probably the only major critique I would have for now.

    Tower wise, it also ended up being very tower-spammy, due to lack of upgrades. Combined with the above, the focus on attack vs defense types became rather irrelevant as you were able to spam all the tower types pretty easily. It also meant that having to plan around the path and tower interactions became a non issue, especially true for the shadow race where you could quickly blanket everything in shadow.

    The map also got much, much easier in the later waves (30+), its like all the unusual wave types (like the stunners) vanished and only standard mobs were left.

    A few minor things
    - Needs a spawn/leak animation when enemies cross the threshold.
    - Being able to refer to the multi-board for current wave info/income would be good.
    - The shadow basic tower could have a projectile that blends less into the shadow, druid of talon/voidwalker attack would be good.
    - Is there a reason why stuns have a freeze visual effect?
    - It seems possible that you can have more than 1 mine per sapper?
    - Would be nice if the camera was locked to prevent mouse scroll zoom

    Still, its the most fun Ive had in a TD in years (no kidding).
    Would love to see a panic mode with greatly reduced prep time between rounds.
     
  18. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

    Tower size is there to add more variety, and force the player to think more careful about how to build clusters of towers so that no space is wasted. Tower size will be less of an issue when I change the maze generator a bit - I plan to have the rows/columns alternate between having a 1 tile gap and a 2 tile gap.

    Limited tower options are because the main focus is to make this a co-op TD. I'm trying to avoid having towers be redundant between the different builders; every builder should have some niche.

    For solo play, I'm going to address this by giving you 2 builders instead of 1.

    The reason for the spammy nature is that good tower positions can also be thought of as a resource. If towers had endless upgrades, you would just build one of each at roughly the same position where the creeps pass twice, and from that point on you don't really need to think about tower placement anymore. I want tower placement to be important all throughout the game, and as you use up all the best spots you have to weigh the options of building your new towers at subpar locations or selling something in a nice spot.

    That said, I will add a few more upgrades for some towers. Currently each race has 10-15 towers (including upgrades), I'll push this up to 20-25.

    Each wave has ~3 different variations, so it's quite possible to not see any flying or stunners for example. I might rework creep abilities to be separate from creep types, so every X waves the creeps will have an ability.

    Which difficulty did you play on? I recently changed the difficulty increase formula, so if you played on anything other than easy I'll need to adjust it a little further.

    Yes, you can have up to 5 before they start to decay. Gives the possibility to stack up a defense for e.g. a boss round.

    Thanks for reminding me; after too much testing I become immune to minor issues :p
     
  19. Kino

    Kino

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    The issue I have isn't about each builder not being able to fill all niches, but how building towers based on attack type > proper positioning.


    I agree on that.
    Im not expecting infinite upgrades, but a more balanced tech vs expansion.


    I played on normal.
    That said, I think the issue overall is pacing more than anything else.
    1-20 is a blast.

    By 20-30
    - Mazes tend to feel very "complete" as in you don't have any weaknesses that need addressing.
    - It also tends to feel very slow as the gap between the early towers vs the last tier of towers is huge.
    - The ultra tier towers also come across as very "meh" in how useful they are and how late in the game one can build them realistically.
    - You no longer really think about tower placement at that point and it becomes just a another TD.

    AFAIK you could easily do the following
    - max of 25 rounds
    - shorten each maze by ~30%
    - bring down the cost of the end tier towers

    The map is definitely beatable, its just that the cool part; having to adapt to a random maze is lost after a certain point.
     
  20. jopi

    jopi

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    Ok, let's push the random walk function to the limit...

    What if after a set amount of rounds (or maybe in a range e.g. after every 7 - 10 rounds) All players get their towers refunded fully as they are warped away, and the maze is rerolled (think of it as switching into a different world, maybe also with tiles? So players have some feel of progress, you could make every 'world' end with a boss and also make the creeps more themed to the world). Then they have some time to build in the new maze.

    You also could make the gold refund in steps and not all at once, this would also mean, that the first few rounds (e.g. first 3 if you make the gold refunded over 3 rounds) should be a bit weaker.

    EDIT: Here are some ideas:

    Ice world:
    no special terrain effects, creeps are a little slower but have a bigger health pool than normal at the given round. Stun/freeze creep ability is more common. At every round start there spawns a random number of stationary 'chilling winds' (e.g. ice tornados) somewhere along the path and slow the attack rate of towers.

    Fire world: randomly along the path there are lava areas that are unbuildable, here a builder with flying towers would be good in this world. Also creeps in this world move a bit faster.

    Forest world: Trees(neutral passive shop building) are generated along the path randomly (still quite often). They have to be 'cut down' for some gold before the space is buildable. The gold spent on cutting trees would still be refunded when the forest world ends.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015