Political Hive

[Masiah]

I personally love to discuss politics and philosophy. Let's enjoy some discusion?

 

[DrazharLn]

I think Medivh's tower is there for discussion, but despite being a paypal donor I currently can't post there due to the site changes [shakes fist].
Thanks for the invite Masiah.

 

[Masiah]

I've invited some more people (with different views) so we can discuss a little more in here from time to time.

 

[Arvedui]

o hai thar

 

[Masiah]

Hai ^^

 

[Pyritie]

I choose sending it to hell! D:

 

[Masiah]

:O Pyritie joined! Hai there!

 

[DarkIron Dwarf]

Time to bring it to hell!

 

[Masiah]

Well, shall we start discussing? How about "anarchy" being the first theme?

 

[DrazharLn]

I thought we already 'did' anarchy. Oh well.

My view on Anarchy is that it would work well as long as people did not want for anything. [I use 'want' in the Scottish way, here it means need/desire] I believe that since people will still want for material goods etc in an anarchy, there will be internal conflict.

I also don't believe that those in power [whoever takes it upon themselves to defend their communities, stop people stealing etc] will be as effective as police. Police officers go through extensive training to do their jobs. They are trained how to react to the public and to situations that require their attention.

I think that as long as one man may extend their power over another people will do so. Removing the existing government would split the country concerned into tribal societies. This would occur because people would want the things that other people have.

The controlling influence of the law and of the police would be gone, so the more aggressive people would begin taking what they wanted, after this communities would move to protect themselves, thus leading to an escalation.

I would like to point out that my feelings on this are not set in stone, they are just my thoughts. I will change my position on this subject if I feel my arguments are invalid.

[offtopic]
I think we should grab some threads or a forum to discuss if this turns into a working idea.
We should also set some ground rules for debating and have someone neutral in a debate to declare it closed if it starts becoming cyclic.
[/offtopic]

 

[HorizonTal]

Two main problems make anarchy a bad thing:
-criminal organizations could not be stopped at all
-health care, security, protection only for who can afford it, and nobody who controls prices. If all chemists, for example, improve the price of medicines (I don't know if I am speaking a correct english), make them more expensive, nobody can stop them (well, somebody who has more money and then more power could, but is this justice?)
Then I totally agree with DrazharLn: it's bad.

Also I think Capitalism will slowly bring Anarchy in the world. Laws, taxes and free services, then the States, are an obstacle for corporations. And corporations are getting stronger than who wants to preserve these things (nationalists, anti-capitalists).
States though make wars, and that's a good thing for capitalists, then perhaps their lobbies will take over the governments without destroying nations.
Then States give the money of the citiziens (taxes) to capitalists every time they need the help of a society... I don't know.. The State does many good things for capitalists... but it also makes obstacles against them... Perhaps they will take control of the governments, abolish the obstacles, and keep on with wars and spending the money of the nation to improve their societies. In Italy the State is giving money to societies for so many useless projects! They want to build a bridge between Sicily and Italy itself... Here capitalists have already started playing with power.

 

[DrazharLn]

We ideally need someone who supports anarchy [Hakeem] to post.
Bowserthefro, MSBB, Brad and Hakeem haven't posted yet.

I have more arguments, but it would be akin to intellectual masturbation to debate with a group that agrees with me. [Paraphrased from Michael Wong]

Edit: You mean increase or inflate instead of improve prices, HorizonTal.

 

[Masiah]

Well, an idea would be to post here the ideas you want to discuss and then create a thread in the offtopic forum to discuss it and let other people join in and express their ideas.
The neutral moderator would be great, but I doubt we can find someone who is really neutral in politics -.-. So we could use democratic system in which if a member of this social group gets tired of a theme or sees that it becomes cyclic, he or she posts a message here asking for the thread to be closed and we each member has to vote, and if we achieve, for example, a rough 65% of positive votes, the thread will be closed and we will proceed to another theme. I would like to ask you to be active members please, if I see people don't participate at all I fear I will have to remove them from the group.
By the way, if you know more people who like politics or social philosophy, let me know and I will invite them or just tell them to join the group.

 

[Hakeem]

> criminal organizations could not be stopped at all
They're up against everybody now, not just the insignificant cops.

> health care, security, protection only for who can afford it, and nobody who controls prices. If all chemists, for example, improve the price of medicines (I don't know if I am speaking a correct english), make them more expensive, nobody can stop them (well, somebody who has more money and then more power could, but is this justice?)
If you treat your customers like crap, and there's another business doing what you're doing, who doesn't have bean counters, who will people choose?


Okay, it's the 4th of July, the holiday you can't spend indoors, you have to go outside to shoot off fireworks. There are various fireworks shows around the area, and they all are crowded beyond belief. Everyone has dangerous fireworks and they're actively shooting them off, and there are nowhere near enough cops to control anything, it's practically anarchy.
And you know what?
There's not a problem.

You go into a crowded place and you see people walking around doing all sorts of things, all the while not being complete douches to each other or worse. And don't try to tell me all these countless people are only "behaving" because society is set up that way, we evolved to help each other out. Human pessimists are wrong.

 

[Masiah]

Evolution does not admit pessimism or optimism. It is like it is, it looks for the best way to survive, it can't be judged.

What do you think about the democratic system for the group?

 

[DarkIron Dwarf]

I think we would be better off if america would just stop giving supporting every one for god sake we have high taxes here on every thing and what do we get from giving every one crap we need nothing but cheap shit like the lead painted toys the fucked up pet food and the cheap pills. (i am only saying this because i am stuck in america right now and i think it is runned by a group of fucking hippys)

 

[Masiah]

Ehh... America run by hippies?

 

[DarkIron Dwarf]

Yes we have more oil under the rocky mountains then all of iraq and iran and we can't get it because they think it will hurt the mountain and are gas cost now is going on $5.00 and this is the highest we ever got here in america. (God i am pissed)

 

[Incarnation]

My personal feeling is that the only type of ruling system that works is Empirealism. Loo at the Chinease they had a wonderful Empire untill Capitali$im came along...

 

[Masiah]

All empires looked strong... untill an internal revolution destroys it. Empires are too strong to even control themselves...

 

[DrazharLn]

Imperialism is not good IMHO, however, we were talking about anarchy.

Responding to Hakeem on his 4th July argument:
I'm still of the opinion that people would act badly if such a situation was prolonged. Think about riots, those are briefly anarchy, until the police/army/firemen turn up and beat everyone back to order. It would only take a few armed people to mess up the whole system, they would take what they wanted [like a riot] people would have to defend themselves and their communities through violence to survive. This then brings power back into the equation. If you have people with power over other people, they will try and legitimise this, they will make their own laws or customs as they please.

I don't believe that anarchy will help any country.

Have we already started a thread on this in offtopic? If so, my apologies.

 

[Masiah]

First thread started in the offtopic forum. Theme: Imperialism.

 

[DrazharLn]

Here is the link

 

[Masiah]

Thank you DrazharLn, can't believe I failed to think about posting a link to the thread.
*Goes and sits in a corner, humiliated*

 

[Masiah]

Looks like we have run out of ideas with absolutism. Any other ideas for a debate?

 

[HorizonTal]

Let's speak about religions and their effect on society. If you agree.
(I'm sorry I haven't been active here, I thaught I would receive notifications for every new post here, but I was wrong)

 

[Masiah]

Theme aproved. Thread started in Off-topic forum.

 

[The_Silent]

That thread did fast change to become about attacking each other with science vs relegion

 

[HorizonTal]

Alright I had some fun. Now shall we change theme?
(People started arguing about God's existance, perhaps we should close that thread...)

 

[Incarnation]

I have aproblem with Wand Mirror... Hes a misguided fool.

BUT i still think an Empire, a Global Empire, would work.

 

[Masiah]

Lead by who?

 

[Arvedui]

Can we exclude all morons from further discussions? >.>

 

[Masiah]

I suppose you refer to wand_mirror?

 

[HorizonTal]

No. We need morons. And when morons say some bullshit just smile at them and explain them what's wrong.
It's not very hard and sometimes it transforms morons in good people.
I think this group exists to show the weak points everyone of us has in his ideas.
So we can realize it and correct our wrong thaughts.

 

[Masiah]

And correct others too. Don't just go and surrender after your first argument is beaten, because debates get boring then.

 

[Incarnation]

That is a problem though... lead by who. I cant answear that question just yet. I have to think.

 

[Arvedui]

By morons I meant people who can't take the fact that they're wrong and keep arguing just for the sake of arguing. Debate is about intelligent arguments not "Zomg liek ur so stupid" and stuff like that. That's what happened in the Religion thread. I admit I contributed to that, but he pissed me off so much with his inept arguments.

The main point of debate is to learn and maybe come to different conclusion than you had before, but when people spew hate it's not a debate anymore.

Would have responded earlier but I don't check my groups very often >.> there really needs to be a message system for groups.

 

[HorizonTal]

You are right about the message system!
Anyway, we do need to prevent degeneration of discussions.
We should estabilish rules. I would first of all just warn who is flaming or is behaving aggressively.
I mean, we shouldn't only punish who says "you are stupid", but even who says "who thinks this is stupid". That's how the Wand_Mirror pissed off so many people!
And then we should protect the flaming moron from attacks by the people who he offended.
Somehow we need a system to punish who is aggressive
and a system to protect him, else the thread would fill with insults to that person.
Maybe we could hire an administrator to give negative reputation and erase those dangerous comments which would "kill" the thread.

 

[Cokemonkey11]

Does this group ever discuss interesting topics besides how to deal with flamers?

 

[Masiah]

Yes, we intend to discuss interesting topics.
Well, about the administrator... I doubt anyone would take the job, unless some moderator in this groups wants to... There should be a thread moderation option, where you could restrict some users from posting and create a so called "Black list", but that would require major changes in the sight. Bring ideas, we must find a solution to the flames... or we will all end up burning.

 

[RED BARON]

I want to discuss a solution to all the problems with goverments...

I believe an internet based goverment like hives would solve many problems.

 

[Masiah]

Ralle rule us all? ... No comments.

 

[RED BARON]

Well he would have help, and when good people turned up they would be promoted.. I would really like a system like that... Consider how famous you could become. And how everyone would do their best to help, something not very noticable in our current world-order.

 

[Masiah]

Imagine... Real life is a MMORPG hosted in a server, where people continuesly mod it xD

 

[RED BARON]

Yea that would be interresting too, although a bit dangerous. What would happen if banned

 

[Masiah]

You are sent into a alternate server called PRISON.

 

[RED BARON]

Hehe or maybe just the ocean... if it is a permaban

 

[varsaigen]

lol. WALK THE PLANK! >

 

[RED BARON]

Yea or get hit with the banstick..

I am sure that would make politics better.

 

[Masiah]

Masiah grabs the banstick and the troll spray without Ghan noticing and heads to the White House. There is work to be done...
Brb, got something to do